THINKERS MAY 24 2011: THE FOURTH ROBOT ETHIC

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/05/24 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Today we are discussing…
[2011/05/24 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: FOURTH ROBOT ETHIC: he UK’s Engineering and Physical Sciences and Arts and Humanities Research Council has devised some ethics for roboticists. Among these is the Fourth Ethic which states that robots are manufactured artefacts, so they should not be designed in a deceptive way to exploit vulnerable users (their machine nature should be transparent). What does this mean for the dream of building an artificial being in our image?
[2011/05/24 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: It seems ironic to me.
[2011/05/24 15:36]  Nase Sleeper: it means the 4th robot ethic is unethical
[2011/05/24 15:36]  Queen Bluestar: but they must be deceptive at point of activity
[2011/05/24 15:36]  Shorahmin Femto: sounds a lot like the requirement to wear a star of David a while back
[2011/05/24 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Considering how much difficulty we’re having trying to make robots even vaguely human-like, I mean. 🙂
[2011/05/24 15:36]  Queen Bluestar: or their robotness will interfer with clean and present usage by their Human
[2011/05/24 15:37]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Sorry, I have to go and oil my robot. Aplolgise everyone and bye for now.
[2011/05/24 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes you can. You can permakill your facebook.
[2011/05/24 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2011/05/24 15:37]  Nase Sleeper: well if robots could be made to resemble humans it would be unethical to force designer to make sure they are immediately recognizable to be robots
[2011/05/24 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Why is this a problem? Isn’t that just truth in advertising?
[2011/05/24 15:38]  Queen Bluestar: I do think designers would be not forced to leave alside…anything….vital to their projection of the project
[2011/05/24 15:38]  Queen Bluestar: aside
[2011/05/24 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: We place all kinds of elaborate restrictions, regulations and requirements on manufactured goods already. Like cars for example. Why should robots be exempt?
[2011/05/24 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Could it be like Data from Star Trek TNG, whose skintones and eyes marked him out as nonehuman, even though his behaviour was more than sufficient to pass a Turing test?
[2011/05/24 15:39]  Queen Bluestar: because they are a new industry and thus can sneak under the radar
[2011/05/24 15:39]  Nase Sleeper: you mean like making it mandatory to put a red cap at the end of a toy gun so people know it’s a toy?
[2011/05/24 15:39]  Queen Bluestar: in essentiial matters…once out, they procure the Norm
[2011/05/24 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: yes, Nase
[2011/05/24 15:39]  Nase Sleeper: ya unethical
[2011/05/24 15:39]  Shorahmin Femto: this is different than cars, these creations have the potential to become beings. The same rules should apply to them as us
[2011/05/24 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, that’s the other thing. It doesn’t specify *how* to mark the robots as non-human. This requirement could be interpreted almost out of existence.
[2011/05/24 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: how so, Zoe?
[2011/05/24 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: By making the difference trivial. Like your example of Data. . . or even less.
[2011/05/24 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: If the difference is trivial the rejection could be huge, Think uncanny valley.
[2011/05/24 15:41]  Nase Sleeper: robots are definitely products. but ive seen really good sculptures that took totally real. like looking at it you would think there’s no way that’s a sculpture
[2011/05/24 15:41]  Nase Sleeper: no big deal
[2011/05/24 15:41]  Nase Sleeper: of a human*
[2011/05/24 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: But the sculpture is not totally real in the way Cylons look completely human in the BattleStar Galactica remake. Would robots THAT real be no big deal?
[2011/05/24 15:42]  Shorahmin Femto: this is just a new way to paint something as “Other” so we can abuse it
[2011/05/24 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: RealDolls look. . . pretty real. If you don’t look too closely. 😛
[2011/05/24 15:43]  Queen Bluestar: I would like to see a world go forward where all the petty rules and regulations became rolled back and the competence of Humans using the World…contructed forwards
[2011/05/24 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: There is another issue with giving robots *any* kind of right or even leeway. I am not against giving free, accountable, sentience consideration, but I am kinda worried about emerging minds being extensions of some other power. Say, as an exemple – what if the chinese government suddenly declares it has been building these cloning plants where it can grow human embryos, in laboratory sustained wombs. Healthy results. And they grow very healthy, excrutiatingly smart chinese, all with genetic predispositions favoring good economy and loyal citizenship – and all clones born in 2012 (next year) are female. All 10 million of them. And some they even spliced to be blondes, blue eyed.
[2011/05/24 15:43]  Queen Bluestar: robots…would be in intimatee space, however , to require heavy moderation
[2011/05/24 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: Is such a thing ‘fair’
[2011/05/24 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Would it be OK to abuse an artificial person if it were built for that purpose?
[2011/05/24 15:44]  Nase Sleeper: if the robots were overall friendly, it wouldn’t be a big deal. i mean i know a bunch of poeple who go to club and pick up a really hot girl. and she turns out to be a dude.
[2011/05/24 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu know, like the cowboys in that Westworld film who existed just to be shot?
[2011/05/24 15:44]  Shorahmin Femto: Khann, that Will happen, fair or not
[2011/05/24 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Leaving aside the one that goes on the rampage.
[2011/05/24 15:45]  Queen Bluestar: No such thing as fair..it is a method which trains the young to learn the world is shared….above age of adulthood….actions and ommissions are pragmatic and have consequences the adult is equiped to handle…I say ban the word Fair
[2011/05/24 15:46]  Queen Bluestar: One might ab-use but I question the emotive ‘abuse’ to a manufactury
[2011/05/24 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: Nase I heard of that, I even heard, and I am just paraphrasing talk here, these elusive creatures are amazingly adept at the art of oral sex.
[2011/05/24 15:46]  Shorahmin Femto: well said, it’s a word most used by those wishing to take some knid of advantage
[2011/05/24 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: Here are Asimov’s 3 Rules of Robotics: A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
 A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
 A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
[2011/05/24 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Scarp!
[2011/05/24 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Asimov’s rules are completely nuts!
[2011/05/24 15:46]  Nase Sleeper: what do you mean by chinese government growing clones? that doesn’t sound like robots
[2011/05/24 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: To be fair, he wrote them in order to explore ways in which they fail, I think.
[2011/05/24 15:47]  Queen Bluestar: interesting that the robnot is first offered ‘may’ and then ‘not’…how would an intelligenced machine manage such contradiction?
[2011/05/24 15:47]  Shorahmin Femto: robots is the wrong word, we should talk about manufactured objects. Then, can anufactured objects have rights?
[2011/05/24 15:48]  Queen Bluestar: ‘may’ ‘not’…etc
[2011/05/24 15:48]  Queen Bluestar: No
[2011/05/24 15:48]  Queen Bluestar: they have guarantees:)
[2011/05/24 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW remember this topic is not about Robot Rights or Assimov’s Laws, but the fourth robot ethic, which is ‘no robot shall be perfectly humanlike. We must always be able to tell ‘this is not really a person’.
[2011/05/24 15:49]  Shorahmin Femto: which is a stalking goat for the real question, do they have rights
[2011/05/24 15:49]  Queen Bluestar: Then I disagree with a novelists interpretation of real world event
[2011/05/24 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: Nase, no they are not robots. BUT they have rights, etc. etc. And what if these Chinese2.0 all consistently support the chinese party, nearly unwaiveringly? Same for robotics. Thse GoogBots are just nice and charming and wow. But they constantly vote for the same political party!
[2011/05/24 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: R. Daneel Olivaw saved the universe more than once! ha ha
[2011/05/24 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think it’ll work, Extie. Even if you make it *obvious* that the robot is not human, you can make it so human-like in behavior and appearance that people will feel strongly inclined — almost compelled — to respond as if it were human.
[2011/05/24 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: In making up such an ethical guideline, are they saying we WILL one day be able to create robots that look and behave just like real people?
[2011/05/24 15:50]  Shorahmin Femto: they fear so
[2011/05/24 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: They may know logically that it’s not a person, but they’ll respond anyhow. And at some point the distinction will be moot anyhow.
[2011/05/24 15:50]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): The second rule is already broken. Robotics in combat have harmed people.
[2011/05/24 15:50]  Nase Sleeper: its not a big deal if they have rights considering all humans have rights. ru saying artificially grown humans aren’t humans?
[2011/05/24 15:50]  Queen Bluestar: Are you arguing that robots become citizens? For what would they require…integration AS the host population?
[2011/05/24 15:50]  Nase Sleeper: we need to distinguish because the topic is about robots not humans
[2011/05/24 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: Robots that look like real people would not be very practical, they would limit thier abilities substantially. The only real reason to have human looking robots is for sex toys…….
[2011/05/24 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: We are not discussing cloning.
[2011/05/24 15:51]  Shorahmin Femto: robots who might otherwise be indistinguishable from humans
[2011/05/24 15:51]  Queen Bluestar: I say….the day has not yet dawned when such feasibility is to concern our philosophy
[2011/05/24 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see how a human form is so limiting. It’s quite versatile really.
[2011/05/24 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: Zobeid, there is nothing that a human form can do that can’t be done better by another form.
[2011/05/24 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: I hear ya Zobeid, You are one of tose that say ‘a toaster isn’t a toaster’. But what if I take a human, human genes, and add 5% chimpansee? Now how the reverse. I take a chimpansee, and alter the genes so it looks and functions completely human. And *then* I drag those motherfuckers kicking and screaming in the law because I want to really know if they have allergies aginst the latest makeup. I mean, I empty nail polish in their eyes. Whats the problem? They are just cartboxes.
[2011/05/24 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Just think how the Extropia DaSilva gynoid would sell. It would be one hell of a hot product, and you know it!
[2011/05/24 15:52]  Shorahmin Femto: better we discuss it now before we have beings to despoil Queen
[2011/05/24 15:52]  Queen Bluestar: yu are arguing for and against sentience…not mechanics
[2011/05/24 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Versatility doesn’t mean it’s best at everything — or best at anything. It just means that it can do a very wide range of things. Like a human.
[2011/05/24 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: Khannea, humans already have 95 percent Chimpanzee DNA! heh
[2011/05/24 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: I think Scarp is mostly correct, The vast majority of robots will not look like people.
[2011/05/24 15:53]  caiomhin Aeghin: Hi Ya’all
[2011/05/24 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello!
[2011/05/24 15:53]  Queen Bluestar: where a mechanical servant is that specialised, the class owning and operating it…are unlikely to be blind to differences
[2011/05/24 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Extie, does that matter?
[2011/05/24 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: It matters to me.
[2011/05/24 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: No scarp. You can test and a test will say “THIS is a chimp. and thats a legal assessment. And vise versa, a catholic lab can test a cow and when they’ll find strands of human derived DNA theyll throw a hissy fit.
[2011/05/24 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s sort of like saying the vast majority of land animals are insects.
[2011/05/24 15:54]  Shorahmin Femto: and that is their problem not mine
[2011/05/24 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Sheer numbers tend not to be what we care about.
[2011/05/24 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: The vast majority of land animals are bacteria! heh
[2011/05/24 15:55]  Nase Sleeper: isnt there a law that says humans aren’t allowed to wear masks in public like putting a paper bag over your head?
[2011/05/24 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think bacteria count as animals. Different phylum.
[2011/05/24 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Think of the film AI, You had the Jude Law sexbot which looked obviously artificial, but still way better than what we can currently achieve. And then you had the Haley Joel Osment child robot, which was completely humanlike. I think the ethics allows the Jude Law but not the Haley Joel Osment.
[2011/05/24 15:55]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Probably the danger lies in that if there would be such ethics, such rules about appearance of robots, many would break the rules anyway and even prosper because if we give all humanlike robots red noses, then we do not notice that the illegal robot without a red nose is a robot.
[2011/05/24 15:56]  Queen Bluestar: bearing in mind…there are umpteen likely secret machines and weapons etc…..I doubt that the billions required to produce an identical humanoid robot….would be spent, where a HUMAN can be developed to perform as a ROBOT..
[2011/05/24 15:56]  caiomhin Aeghin: Would it salve our consotcience to have an almost human rob
[2011/05/24 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW, the comparison with toy guns was probably apt.
[2011/05/24 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Are bacteria Archea? Something like that?
[2011/05/24 15:57]  Queen Bluestar: I have no concience
[2011/05/24 15:57]  Scarp Godenot: that movie AI was quite thought provoking for me…… I liked the long view of it all.
[2011/05/24 15:57]  caiomhin Aeghin: I think youre right extrop
[2011/05/24 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: There have been instances of people painting over the red mark on toy guns, or painting false red marks on real ones.
[2011/05/24 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: what do you mean, Caiomhin?
[2011/05/24 15:57]  Shorahmin Femto: Would it also then become illegal for a human it the brave new age of bio-sculpting to then make one’s self to look like a robot?
[2011/05/24 15:57]  Scarp Godenot: Bacteria are Monera
[2011/05/24 15:57]  Queen Bluestar: small beer, I believe the saying goes
[2011/05/24 15:57]  Scarp Godenot: Prokaryotes
[2011/05/24 15:57]  caiomhin Aeghin: Jude law had movements and characteristics making it clear he wasn’t human. THe boy looked human
[2011/05/24 15:58]  caiomhin Aeghin: Which immediately makes me think of racisim. Its easier to be bad to someone not like us
[2011/05/24 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Talking of which Shor, the US provide prosthetic arms for combat veterans who loose a limb. They can opt to have it look naturalistic, but a lot of them prefer to have just the bionic arm which makes them look like the Terminator.
[2011/05/24 15:58]  Shorahmin Femto: that IS the point Cai
[2011/05/24 15:58]  Queen Bluestar: all of these laws….they are the arrows of control fired by the Power elites. What pockets of hybred scientists take upon themselves to develop…may be ‘out’ of the control zone
[2011/05/24 15:58]  caiomhin Aeghin: Or tolerate someone beneath us
[2011/05/24 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: This proposed rule has an aura of folly around it, from so many different viewpoints.
[2011/05/24 15:58]  caiomhin Aeghin: I thought so
[2011/05/24 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: I seriously urge you all to drop this duality. Robots will be just boxes. There will be androids, and those will be human emulators. The minds in all these things will emerge from surrounding networks. Robots won’t have, by and large a ‘consciousness’ in their ‘head’. Its a silly, dated “I’ll be back’ idea. The problem arizes when robotic parts and biomechanical parts and genetic parts and vatgrown organs are all meshed into composites. THAT sort of stuff (Bioroids) will skirt the defenitions. Zobi, what will you do if one day you will wake up, and turns out its 20 years later, you are dead, you have no legal rights, and oh fuck you were cryosuspended, and then someone had the jolly good idea to patent you, upload you and sell you in a torturebot. And bad news, youi wake up in a hall with 200 versions of youself. Waiting for buyers. All nicely packaged cartboxes. I mean, free markets yes? Supply and demand, what’s teh problem?
[2011/05/24 15:59]  caiomhin Aeghin: A lot of the technology is becoming bio
[2011/05/24 16:00]  Nase Sleeper: ok so presuming you could make robots that look exactly like people. and it was legal to manufacture and own them. its not a big deal. society can adjust.
[2011/05/24 16:00]  Queen Bluestar: I don’t hear so much about ‘is it allowed’, ‘should it be legal’, etc , in England. I think it is an occupation in America, which is a highl litigious nation
[2011/05/24 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: I’ed buy a Zobi tortuebot. And I’d be nice to you.
[2011/05/24 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: Hell I’d buy two and make you be nice to each other!
[2011/05/24 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: YOu know talking about robot form of the future. A friend of mine is working RL on an “exoskeleton. Which is a thing for assisting humans to lift heavy objects. The models for designing how the joints would work were NOT taken from humans, but from other types of animals….
[2011/05/24 16:01]  Nase Sleeper: what about intellectual property? somebody manufacturing a robot that looks exactly like you or similar?
[2011/05/24 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s already a concern, Nase. As we get into “virtual actors” in movies, I mean.
[2011/05/24 16:02]  Shorahmin Femto: The Duke lives again!
[2011/05/24 16:02]  Queen Bluestar: it happens already…companies collecting bio samples from humans resistant to diseases and viruses etc…those samples are cultivated and patented over the head of the person
[2011/05/24 16:02]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Anton la Vey made wax dolls life size and then went to search for a person who looked exactly like his creation.
[2011/05/24 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Whoah. . . What if somebody copybots my avatar? Can I sue them?
[2011/05/24 16:03]  Nase Sleeper: oh ok. well if it’s completely legal to manufacture human looking robots. then you could manufacture lots of robots to look like anybody you want. it doesn’t mean society can’t adjust to that
[2011/05/24 16:03]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): He usually succeeded which means that it is very likely we sometimes encounter ourselves in robots. Especially when ourlooks closely resemble the ideal model look.
[2011/05/24 16:03]  Nase Sleeper: you’re not committing any crime
[2011/05/24 16:03]  caiomhin Aeghin: on the way i heard about the uploading of pictures on twitter. You’ve no rights on any pictures uploaded through that service
[2011/05/24 16:04]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): And itwould not be copying. Yet it would look like you.
[2011/05/24 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: You know, I often have trouble telling models apart already. 😛
[2011/05/24 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: Well, there are laws against using someone’s ‘publicity rights’, that is you can’t represent yourself as them in any commercial way without violating these laws.
[2011/05/24 16:04]  Queen Bluestar: Anyhow folks:) I appear not to be adding anything to your discussionly bliss, so I had best take myself off and stop making ‘traffic’ between your erduitions:))
[2011/05/24 16:04]  Queen Bluestar: thanks for the notify:)
[2011/05/24 16:04]  Shorahmin Femto: oh blather Queen
[2011/05/24 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: No queen stay
[2011/05/24 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: You are
[2011/05/24 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: Nobody listens to anyone here! ha ha Join the club!
[2011/05/24 16:05]  Nase Sleeper: you mean i cant dress up like obama and do a commercial by pretending im him? what if i dress up like obama. then go on youtube telling everybody to drink Coca Cola?
[2011/05/24 16:06]  Shorahmin Femto: or to screw Isreal
[2011/05/24 16:06]  Nase Sleeper: what do i mean by isreal?
[2011/05/24 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: You can’t do that Nase…. Unless you are engaged in political parody or humor.
[2011/05/24 16:07]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Parody and humour can also be advertisement.
[2011/05/24 16:07]  caiomhin Aeghin: So the traits of individuals which are successful will be copied and will all converge to being clones
[2011/05/24 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes. In some countries they horrendously exploit the semblance and voice of wellknown and respected dignitaries. It’;s a disgrace. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui_6jBMSU9s
[2011/05/24 16:07]  Nase Sleeper: ya if i dress just like obama and make people think im him. then advertise cocacola. i can say i was being humorous
[2011/05/24 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: doesn’t work like that
[2011/05/24 16:08]  Nase Sleeper: and people who worship obama would think it’s him and go buy the product im endorsing
[2011/05/24 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: Judges decide
[2011/05/24 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: There is amazing potential for culture jamming here. 🙂
[2011/05/24 16:08]  Nase Sleeper: has nothing to do with judges. if its a parody then i didnt violate the law
[2011/05/24 16:09]  Scarp Godenot: If it is an editorial parody, you are correct. If it is advertising something you can be sued.
[2011/05/24 16:09]  caiomhin Aeghin: interesting term, “culture jamming”
[2011/05/24 16:09]  Shorahmin Femto: you violated it if some judge says so
[2011/05/24 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_jamming
[2011/05/24 16:09]  Nase Sleeper: anyway. what reprucussions would there be if nobody is committing any crimes. and people are allowed to have robots that are fairly indistinguishable from humans or even look like other actual people?
[2011/05/24 16:10]  Nase Sleeper: if i have a robot that looks like a human and im not commmiting any crimes with it
[2011/05/24 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: What happens when you can buy a Marilyn Monrobot?
[2011/05/24 16:10]  Nase Sleeper: lol
[2011/05/24 16:11]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Moral decadence, if Futurama is anything to go by!
[2011/05/24 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: These themes were exhaustively explored in the 2000 roleplaying game GURPS transhuman space.
[2011/05/24 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhuman_Space
[2011/05/24 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh what lovely wings, Violet! I could not see them before, on account of an IM window blocking the view.
[2011/05/24 16:11]  caiomhin Aeghin: We already have that VI
[2011/05/24 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: What happens when you have a pretend policeman robot? You get arrested for impersonating an officer. What happens if you try to gain anything from impersonating someone? You have violated their publicity rights.
[2011/05/24 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: They were right about the internet.
[2011/05/24 16:11]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Let it have kids with a Charles Mansbot and see if it really produces Marilyn Mansbots.
[2011/05/24 16:11]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Thanks, Extie 🙂
[2011/05/24 16:12]  Nase Sleeper: i dont think its legal for people to pretend to be the police
[2011/05/24 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: ding ding ding
[2011/05/24 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: no it is not
[2011/05/24 16:12]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): I think robots needed to be somehow digitally tagged so that people can request information about if it is a robot with a device like.. Their phone?
[2011/05/24 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: It’s not legal for me to try to gain something by inpersonating you either.
[2011/05/24 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: So do we conclude that most of the potential trouble arising from human-like robots would be covered by existing laws?
[2011/05/24 16:12]  Nase Sleeper: i think robots being allowed to look like others is questionable
[2011/05/24 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Or is it like trying to apply outdated copyright laws in the digitital age? Very inadequate.
[2011/05/24 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: What if my primary impersonates me? Is that legal?
[2011/05/24 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: And yet we keep plugging away at it. . .
[2011/05/24 16:13]  Shorahmin Femto: at some point, robots will have the powqer to select their own appearances just like us
[2011/05/24 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: The most remarkable example wasTrojan pirates who made small lifelike naked humans, who acted like credible humans, pleading and crying for their lives. And you could eat them. Bite of a leg. Taste amazing. It was an example of transhuman BioHackers trolling the sensibilities of terran morals and laws and politicians.\
[2011/05/24 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Smalll lifelike naked humans? eh?
[2011/05/24 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: ‘fuck you terrans, I am half a billion miles away’
[2011/05/24 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: It is clear that whole new commissions will be set up to define the ethics and make new laws on this stuff.
[2011/05/24 16:14]  Nase Sleeper: what if i design a robot to look like a human but not anybody real. is it violation of copyright for somebody else to make a robot that looks like mine?
[2011/05/24 16:15]  Shorahmin Femto: no, an invasion of privacy
[2011/05/24 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: If it looks like yours yes, that is a copyright violation.
[2011/05/24 16:15]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Copyright would lose its power probably in those ages.
[2011/05/24 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: http://www.sjgames.com/transhuman/deepbeyond/
[2011/05/24 16:15]  caiomhin Aeghin: This is about individual rights.
[2011/05/24 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: well do I have the IP rights on my avatar? Could someone else make their avvie look identical to mine?
[2011/05/24 16:15]  Nase Sleeper: i agree nindae intellectual property will likely be eliminated eventurally
[2011/05/24 16:15]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): I mean, everything has been done before, even some artists already confess they steal certain themes in other paintings to make their art better.
[2011/05/24 16:16]  Nase Sleeper: ya extropia anybody can make avie look like you
[2011/05/24 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: Did you know that copyright doesn’t apply to most manufactured objects?
[2011/05/24 16:16]  Nase Sleeper: oh ok
[2011/05/24 16:16]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): How many new tunes can we make that have never been made? How many avatar shapes can we make before we had every possible setting?
[2011/05/24 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Copyright doesn’t apply to clothing, for example.
[2011/05/24 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: As to how many new tunes: nearly infinite
[2011/05/24 16:16]  caiomhin Aeghin: Our bodies and faces and fingerprintes identify us.
[2011/05/24 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Except, oddly, in SL. It seems that LL recognizes SL clothes as copyrighted objects, even though RL clothes are not!
[2011/05/24 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Thought so. I mean, my apperance is a collection of other people’s stuff, anyway. I did not make my hair, body, clothes, poses etc, I got them from various stores.
[2011/05/24 16:17]  Nase Sleeper: wait so if some clothing company makes something, i can make an exact knockoff and sell it as long as im not using their brand?
[2011/05/24 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s right Nase. It’s common practice in the clothing industry.
[2011/05/24 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh and what you do uf it happens outside territorial waters? Oh no better. What happens if these damn kids constantly print a RealSkin copy of your deceased wife, wrap it over an old decomissioned droid, and torch the old bag on your lawn. Damn kids, the same bullshit every halloween, your poor dieases wife howling in agony for half an hour, burning in flames,
[2011/05/24 16:17]  Nase Sleeper: wow that makes clothing industry much easier to go into
[2011/05/24 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s also why so many clothing companies incorporate their brands into the design.
[2011/05/24 16:18]  Nase Sleeper: i can just clone some other brand, and sell it under my own brand
[2011/05/24 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Happens all the time, yeah.
[2011/05/24 16:18]  Nase Sleeper: kewl.
[2011/05/24 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: Nase, yes that happens daily
[2011/05/24 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: And yet, somehow the fashion industry continues to thrive. Crazy, isn’t it?
[2011/05/24 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: the clothing thing that is
[2011/05/24 16:19]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Dutch Hardcore already uses old tunes and just edits them a bit. And many songs get covered without giving credit to the original maker. So probably when we canmake real robots, we just laugh or shrug when someones robot looks like us and only sue somoene when it actively impersonates us and causes us trouble.
[2011/05/24 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: There was a TED Talk on that very subject, it’s worth looking up if you get a chance.
[2011/05/24 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: The fashion industry has been stealing and reworking designs for a thousand years at least.
[2011/05/24 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: what TED talk would that be?
[2011/05/24 16:19]  caiomhin Aeghin: Ok, lets say a unique bioidentifier is created. So the shape and look of body is not the means of identifying an indivvidual
[2011/05/24 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I’d have to look it up. . .
[2011/05/24 16:20]  caiomhin Aeghin: then does it matter what the outer look is
[2011/05/24 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: I think this is the one –> http://blog.ted.com/2010/05/25/lessons_from_fa/
[2011/05/24 16:20]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think that’s the one
[2011/05/24 16:20]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Jinx 🙂
[2011/05/24 16:20]  caiomhin Aeghin: it becomes clothing
[2011/05/24 16:20]  Nase Sleeper: i mean in the case it was completely legal to make a robot look exactly like a human. im sure there would be no problem to create a device that could identify somebody as either bio or mech
[2011/05/24 16:21]  Nase Sleeper: with out any special attachment to the robot
[2011/05/24 16:21]  caiomhin Aeghin: sure, so the body isn’t a means of identification any longer
[2011/05/24 16:21]  caiomhin Aeghin: it is now though
[2011/05/24 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: It is theoretically possible to make robots completely out of DNA produced proteins.
[2011/05/24 16:22]  caiomhin Aeghin: whats wrong with looking at the body as clothing
[2011/05/24 16:22]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Perhaps personality, or maybe we oneday uncover the secret of the soul and create devices to recognise a ‘soul print’.
[2011/05/24 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: If we have robotics like this… ohh fuck. People will be treating the robots better than their dogs even. “let me take you shopping for some nice lingerie my angel’. And the deciding factor will be money. And those who cant make a claim on money, by and large because oif fucking bad luck well…. you can forget about revolts by then. In a society with robotics this good revolution is OVER. The poor will wither away, and soon after they’ll be ‘disposed off’
[2011/05/24 16:22]  caiomhin Aeghin: people treat other people as pets now
[2011/05/24 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Worse
[2011/05/24 16:22]  caiomhin Aeghin: whats the difference
[2011/05/24 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Well
[2011/05/24 16:23]  Nase Sleeper: right well the ethich thing is trying to make sure that robots are immediately identifiable. but it doesn’t seem ethical or even necessary. thus might as well design robots to look how you want. responsibility of identifying it is to whoever wants to.
[2011/05/24 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: Khannea: People already treat inanimate objects as well as pets and other humans already!
[2011/05/24 16:23]  caiomhin Aeghin: Yes
[2011/05/24 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: If anyone poor has access to plutonium in such a world, guess what’ll happen next.
[2011/05/24 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: There may be a bit of ego involved, flattering ourselves that robots would want to look like us. 🙂
[2011/05/24 16:23]  Nase Sleeper: we try to treat our own avatars pretty well
[2011/05/24 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: I fear nannobots more than plutonium
[2011/05/24 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh
[2011/05/24 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not think the robots have a say.
[2011/05/24 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Depends on what kinds of robots.
[2011/05/24 16:24]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Perhaps working then would be something of the past since robots can take over the work.
[2011/05/24 16:24]  Nase Sleeper: some people go overboard with their avies and would probably get mad if you step on their avie’s foot
[2011/05/24 16:24]  Nase Sleeper: virtual foot
[2011/05/24 16:24]  Nase Sleeper: i think nanobots could be great and beneficial
[2011/05/24 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: true Nase! haha
[2011/05/24 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Near-term, you’re talking about non-AI (or weak/limited AI) robots that may look human or look like they have. . . facial expressions, etc. But it’s totally illusion.
[2011/05/24 16:25]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Which would mean that we are taken care of by robots.
[2011/05/24 16:25]  Nase Sleeper: presuming that technology is used ethically
[2011/05/24 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Like I said, the vast majority of robots will not look anything like humans, But there will be a market for companion robots that could look very humanlike.
[2011/05/24 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: Nannobots can be both beneficial and dangerous, depending on what they are.
[2011/05/24 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: BTW, if anyone wants to thing about nannotech, read Neal Stephenson’s The Diamond Age
[2011/05/24 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: think
[2011/05/24 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: I think that’s a given, Extie. There’s already a market for RealDolls, and making them animate would only increase the appeal.
[2011/05/24 16:27]  Nase Sleeper: diamond age?
[2011/05/24 16:27]  Nase Sleeper: wats that?
[2011/05/24 16:27]  Nase Sleeper: i like nanotech alot its my favorite
[2011/05/24 16:27]  Nase Sleeper: you can make structures really strong
[2011/05/24 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: I do think robots will have a say. Mind you not many will. Just a few. I have an interesting scenario for you. Imagine this. It is 2032 and I am, for some reason, rich. So I retire and I ceate a robot which is a younger vcersion of mem secretly, and make her act as if she is me. Of course she is a robortm has no rights, a cartboard box. But I make it credible. It only needs to be credible. THEN I cconcoct a story that I have my brain embedded in this thing. It may be true? It may be bulklshit. But whatever the case, after that point onwards I will leave my legacy, my estate. in the care of well, me. I am me. I will be legally referred to as me. And they can do jack shit. I will be ‘in reatreet’, liviong a retired rich life. No death certificate. Who’s to know? My brain is in there somewhere and I am alive.
[2011/05/24 16:28]  Nase Sleeper: you can make materials really strong and withstand alot of heat and conduct electicity with nanotech
[2011/05/24 16:28]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Such a realistic doll would be great for artists. No more paying for nude models or hoping that the owner of the nude image will not notice that painting on your portfolio.
[2011/05/24 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Diamond Age is a book by Neal Stephenson. Eric Drexler’s conceptual nanomachines are made out of diamondoid, hence the name of Stephenson’s story.
[2011/05/24 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh. On that note, I’d look like this. http://www.sjgames.com/transhuman/deepbeyond/
[2011/05/24 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: No http://khanneasuntzu.com/index-whoiskhannea.html
[2011/05/24 16:29]  caiomhin Aeghin: if there is no difference there is no difference
[2011/05/24 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Calomhin, you’d be fucled. Eventually robots with human rights (AND) money? We’ll compete you meatbags into spare carbon.
[2011/05/24 16:30]  caiomhin Aeghin: but what if there were multiple indistinguishable personalities
[2011/05/24 16:31]  Nase Sleeper: wat do you mean khannea? you mean give your robot ownership of your property? that probably wouldn’t be legal even if you try to falsely claim your brain is in the robot.
[2011/05/24 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: If all you want is an image, then a physical robot seems wasteful. You can do what you want in Poser.
[2011/05/24 16:31]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): Meh, poser is on a flat screen, a doll or robot would be truely 3d.
[2011/05/24 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Some robots will need the ability to own stuff. . . eventually. But we’re a long way from that, and it’s a bigger topic than the one we started with.
[2011/05/24 16:32]  Nase Sleeper: well maybe if robots get so sophisticated and take over, humans could be their pets. and they could treat us like we treat livestock
[2011/05/24 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Nase, disprove it. I ‘retire’. Basicly I’d be old and lets say I die age 69. But some people live over 100 yes? I could be alive? Without a death certoficate who is to know?
[2011/05/24 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe I should say “some AIs” instead of “some robots”. There’s no reason for an AI to be tied to a single body the way humans are.
[2011/05/24 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: Who are other Sci Fi writers besided Asimov who have tackled Robots as fictional heroes? Anyone know of any?
[2011/05/24 16:33]  caiomhin Aeghin: Hey if i could design a robot to go into work for me, I’d do it
[2011/05/24 16:33]  Nase Sleeper: im not sure what your sayig khannea. you want to make a replica robot of yourself and claim your brain is inside it. for what purpose?
[2011/05/24 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: The original “I, Robot” was written by Eando Binder. Not Asimov. 🙂
[2011/05/24 16:33]  Khannea Suntzu: No Nase. I would *willingly* do this. If I face death? I’d displace myself with a robot. Even if it isn’t a full Geneeral AI yet. I’ll LOVE to sneak citizen robots in this way. Would be the perfect prank to pull on humanity.
[2011/05/24 16:33]  Scarp Godenot: Robots are usually cast as extreme villains who attempt to wipe out all humanity.
[2011/05/24 16:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Perfect payback.
[2011/05/24 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is almost up so let us have some closing comments. Will be be able to uphold the fourth robot ethic or not?
[2011/05/24 16:34]  Khannea Suntzu: None of these laws have any relevance
[2011/05/24 16:34]  Nindae Nox (sethsryt.seetan): But then again, I wouldn’t need my doll to be 100% looking alike a living human being. But as long as robots do not behave ‘human’ it doesn’t need a marker that it is a robot. It would be compared to plastic bodyparts and dolls.
[2011/05/24 16:34]  Zobeid Zuma: I say maybe for a while. I don’t see it working too well in the long run.
[2011/05/24 16:34]  Nase Sleeper: i started reading magnus today right before i found out there was a robot discussion. mangus is about robots in the future starting to gain freedom. the robots believe they are alive. and magnus believes they aren’t. so the robots want peace. but humans refuse to allow them rights.
[2011/05/24 16:34]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey Rhi
[2011/05/24 16:34]  Scarp Godenot: Frank Herbert’s Dune saga when looked at in the overarching view of all the books is about Artificial Intelligence being overcome by other means. In this case superhumanity of the future.
[2011/05/24 16:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Khan. Hi Arisia
[2011/05/24 16:35]  Khannea Suntzu: Frank Herbert contrived of a butlerian Jyhad because he didn’t want robots to muck up his feudalist space pera setting.
[2011/05/24 16:35]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Rhia
[2011/05/24 16:35]  Nase Sleeper: its hard to tell whos the good guy in the magnus story
[2011/05/24 16:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Atari
[2011/05/24 16:35]  caiomhin Aeghin: Hi Rhia
[2011/05/24 16:35]  Nase Sleeper: magnus is protagonist but is he a villain?
[2011/05/24 16:35]  caiomhin Aeghin: Nice Hair
[2011/05/24 16:36]  Zobeid Zuma: I remember those Magnus Robot Killer comic books from waaaaaay back. 😀
[2011/05/24 16:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi ciao
[2011/05/24 16:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, thank you!
[2011/05/24 16:36]  caiomhin Aeghin: y2
[2011/05/24 16:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): preens
[2011/05/24 16:36]  caiomhin Aeghin: yw
[2011/05/24 16:36]  Nase Sleeper: well they started rewriting them a few months ago. but i was reading the one from the 90s
[2011/05/24 16:36]  Scarp Godenot: Khannea, if you follow the entire series of books, you will find that the overarching menace throughout is Artificial Intelligence.
[2011/05/24 16:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Scxarp do not have the nerve to quote the prequels
[2011/05/24 16:37]  Scarp Godenot: Khannea, I have read all 18 books, ALL of which were outlined by Herbert Himself btw.
[2011/05/24 16:37]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
[2011/05/24 16:37]  Zobeid Zuma: /me never read the first Dune book. 😦
[2011/05/24 16:37]  Khannea Suntzu: I find that hard to believe.
[2011/05/24 16:37]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: AVATARS AND THE POSTMODERN GENDER..
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