THINKERS MAY 03 2011: ART’S ROLEPLAYING PARADOX

Druth at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is…
[2011/05/03 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: ART’S ROLEPLAYING PARADOX: According to Artcrash Exonar, the more involved you are in roleplaying, the less able you are to have an authentic relationship. Is this really the case?
[2011/05/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello Camilla
[2011/05/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: what is an authentic relationship?
[2011/05/03 15:34]  Camilla Delvalle: Hello.
[2011/05/03 15:34]  Plywood Engineer: summary of Artcrash’s vita, for starters ?
[2011/05/03 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: I postulate that the statement is a void and meaningless statement that cannot be sufficiently contextualized to make it say anything. I can argue it to be *comnpletely* false and I cannot argue it to be *comnpketely* consense. Hence, I state the exhortation is null and void.
[2011/05/03 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: Topic closed, we talk about facebook.
[2011/05/03 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Do not have one. Art has turned up for every single Thinkers and I figured she would be here for this one. But no.
[2011/05/03 15:35]  Lem Skall: I have very little personal experience both in rp and in relationships
[2011/05/03 15:36]  druth Vlodovic: I suspect the premise is that a rolepkayer is so accustomed to “gaming” with their emotions that they would be less capable of dealings with them honestly
[2011/05/03 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: are we capable of dealing with emotions honestly by default though?
[2011/05/03 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: I can argue the precise opposite
[2011/05/03 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Hmmm…yeah makes sense, Druth.
[2011/05/03 15:36]  Camilla Delvalle: I would guess that the topic is about roleplaying in SL and MMORPGs.
[2011/05/03 15:37]  druth Vlodovic: I didn’t say I agreed with it
[2011/05/03 15:37]  Lem Skall: what about actors then? but depends what school of acting they’re from
[2011/05/03 15:37]  Takiro Lowey: You can argue that roleplaying is used as a means of conflict managment and therapy
[2011/05/03 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: kids are capable of dealing with emotions honestly, like walking up to another kid saying they hate him and they stink
[2011/05/03 15:37]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It sort of seems right to me…but it also assume that someone is roleplaying all the time which, except in a “We are the roles we play” sense, probably isn’t the case.
[2011/05/03 15:37]  druth Vlodovic: computer games are different from rpgs
[2011/05/03 15:37]  Camilla Delvalle: There are roleplaying guilds in some MMORPGs.
[2011/05/03 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Adur..
[2011/05/03 15:38]  Lem Skall: wait, does what Art refer also to relationships outside of rp or only the relationships experienced while you rp?
[2011/05/03 15:38]  druth Vlodovic: unless they involve expression and identities
[2011/05/03 15:38]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Actors are a good parallel, since someone can be a different person on and off the stage, and authentic as each, in different ways
[2011/05/03 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: goodness forbid there are roleplayers in games that have roleplaying in name 🙂
[2011/05/03 15:38]  druth Vlodovic: lol, if I knew what I was doing I never would have raised the spectre of that argument
[2011/05/03 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: I assume Art meant relationships that remain strictly inworld.
[2011/05/03 15:38]  Camilla Delvalle: The question is if you roleplay all the time in the game, can an authentic relationshiop be foremed. That is how I interpreted the question, though I dont know what Art meant.
[2011/05/03 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: Many Men Online RolePlaying Girls
[2011/05/03 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: old joke
[2011/05/03 15:39]  Lem Skall: Violet, but is an actor genuinely in love when he is on stage or is he genuinely mad or a serial killer?
[2011/05/03 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: I never heard that one before.
[2011/05/03 15:39]  druth Vlodovic: personally I think roleplaying helps a person develop their real emotional landscape
[2011/05/03 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: yes my teacher at game design school reminded me of that one 🙂
[2011/05/03 15:39]  druth Vlodovic: and I suppose acting would as well
[2011/05/03 15:40]  Takiro Lowey: I’m not sure what we are talking about now. Some person roleplaying in a relation ship without the other knowing ?
[2011/05/03 15:40]  Lem Skall: so let’s leave aside relationships, what about other feelings or emotions that are roleplayed? does a roleplayer authentically feel being a vampire?
[2011/05/03 15:41]  Camilla Delvalle: When one is roleplaying, one is strictly speaking lying all the time, so the question would be if you can have an authentic relationship when the other part only knows your character and not your RL persona.
[2011/05/03 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: rolepaying in relationships is a doluble edged sword. I actually was married for several years in a RL relationship where my spouse and myself actually did Rp the whole vamnpire thing, drank each othes blood and all that. It was quite passionate. It wasn’t roleplaying that killed our marriage. It was cannabis, antidepresants and antipsychotics.
[2011/05/03 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: we lie all the time in relationships anyway, roleplayers or not
[2011/05/03 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: But is it possible to differentiate between what is true, and what is true IN HERE? For instance, we can say that, in SL Seren and I are married. But our primaries have never met and never will. I do not think that lessens the relationship she and I have developed inworld, though.
[2011/05/03 15:42]  druth Vlodovic: to roleplay convincingly you need to call on your own feelings, “lying” isn’t really an accurate description, though stricktly speaking you’re not telling the truth
[2011/05/03 15:43]  Takiro Lowey: I sense a little confusin herel what roleplaying exactly is.
[2011/05/03 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Where do you see confusion, Takiro?
[2011/05/03 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: Extropia, I am sorry. I am Mistress of time. In 2054 Serendipity will sigh and sy, I will now do someting really difficult. Lets have a look at our former primaries. She will then discuss herself, her primary, and you flesh primary, being Natasha Vita More.
[2011/05/03 15:44]  Plywood Engineer: add confisuin about relationships. “never say never”
[2011/05/03 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: I see this clearly. Just giving you a headsup
[2011/05/03 15:44]  Camilla Delvalle: druth, yes, and what one does when roleplaying does also influence ones emotions, there can be strong emotions created that will still exist when one is in the real world.
[2011/05/03 15:44]  Takiro Lowey: There where people talking about playing role plays in a relation ship
[2011/05/03 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Seren’s primary is not Natasha.
[2011/05/03 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is only one way to understand relationships: you have to be dutch
[2011/05/03 15:44]  Takiro Lowey: others using roleplay to hide your real self from the other
[2011/05/03 15:45]  Lem Skall: Khan, but were you rp-ing all the time? how were you switching from rp state to real state? and what was the real relationship? the role players or the real people rp-ing?
[2011/05/03 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: No yours might be. Or it might be Ray Kurzweil.
[2011/05/03 15:45]  Takiro Lowey: and a third think ment rolpleying your real self with the avatar
[2011/05/03 15:45]  Plywood Engineer: while RPing, one could be the “Prince of Pennyroyal” right here on spot
[2011/05/03 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: Takiro: maybe they don’t like their own selves and want to change them?
[2011/05/03 15:45]  Takiro Lowey: Sorry, my spelling is really off today
[2011/05/03 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: NP we understand you:)
[2011/05/03 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: I think all spiritually sincere roleplaying will eventually allow us to banish that atavism which is our natyral born identity to the wastebin ogf reality and ascend to what we ought to be
[2011/05/03 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: Chrysalis
[2011/05/03 15:46]  Adur Gaelyth: that’s interesting Khannea
[2011/05/03 15:46]  Lem Skall: Khan, so you want to be a vampire. Why?
[2011/05/03 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: No I do not want to be a vampire
[2011/05/03 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: vampire? Khani? since when? :O
[2011/05/03 15:47]  Plywood Engineer: anxiety against ageing
[2011/05/03 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me zooms closely at Khani’s teeth
[2011/05/03 15:47]  druth Vlodovic: why did you play a vampire?
[2011/05/03 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: I am in the process of changing my RL legal name
[2011/05/03 15:47]  Lem Skall: “what we ought to be” and rp-ing vampires = wants to be a vampire
[2011/05/03 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess what Art was saying was, the more you are into roleplaying a character in SL, the less of the real you you allow inworld and so the avatar becomes like a barrier preventing people from knowing the person behind it. So if the AVATAR has the relationship…what has the primary got?
[2011/05/03 15:48]  Camilla Delvalle: It seems the primary is jealous.
[2011/05/03 15:48]  druth Vlodovic: no, you don’t generally roleplay what you wish to be, often a person will deliberately roleplay what they’d like to avoid, just for the challenge
[2011/05/03 15:48]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Gwyn 🙂
[2011/05/03 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi 😀
[2011/05/03 15:48]  Lem Skall: if you play the feelings that you want your role to show, then do you really have those feelings?
[2011/05/03 15:48]  Camilla Delvalle: I mean, what if ones primary becomes jealous?
[2011/05/03 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: quick, somebody check if Gwyn isn’t a vampire too!
[2011/05/03 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me gets paranoid
[2011/05/03 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry, overlapping meetings today, and I’m too tired to split myself among both meetings )
[2011/05/03 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn! Hello:)
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Lem Skall: hi Gwyn
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Plywood Engineer: roleplaying, opens the question “how many roles”, or about on how many different sims or settings
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I’m sure I’m not a vampire, Ivy 😀
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn we are talking about…
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me nibbles on garlic bread, just to be safe
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: ART’S ROLEPLAYING PARADOX: According to Artcrash Exonar, the more involved you are in roleplaying, the less able you are to have an authentic relationship. Is this really the case?
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … vampires.
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: I found that in thirty years there is a category of expetiences and feelings I cannot persistentlyenact or ‘roleplay’ or engender.
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: that’s why in “normal” virtual world bi- or poly- location should be possible 🙂
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: and there is a category I can
[2011/05/03 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I did read that red hair is a classic sign of vamiprism, so…
[2011/05/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder where you read that 😀
[2011/05/03 15:50]  Camilla Delvalle: And Gwyn sparkles in sunlight…
[2011/05/03 15:50]  Plywood Engineer: bipolar seems possible
[2011/05/03 15:50]  druth Vlodovic: I usually regarded the “not able to do” category as a challenge, mind you I’ve turned my stomach and abandoned some 🙂
[2011/05/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: iot is, but I need a polymind first!
[2011/05/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *it
[2011/05/03 15:51]  Plywood Engineer: multitasking functionings inside machines, not human minds
[2011/05/03 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me wonders if she’s still here
[2011/05/03 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Yes. Apparently.
[2011/05/03 15:51]  druth Vlodovic: I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be able to drink real blood though
[2011/05/03 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, did anyone ask the 64,000 dollar question?
[2011/05/03 15:51]  Plywood Engineer: /me *prods* the VR fabrice
[2011/05/03 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rw: the topic?
[2011/05/03 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *re:
[2011/05/03 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: One way I disagree with Art is that I think SL is allows for relationships complex enough for attachment to arise, which can develop into love. All inworld. Like, I could start talking to Ari and although both of is are ‘in character’ as those characters we develop feelings for each other. Welll…why is that not authentic?
[2011/05/03 15:52]  Plywood Engineer: actors have fallen in live while playing on the set
[2011/05/03 15:52]  Plywood Engineer: ^love
[2011/05/03 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh yes
[2011/05/03 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There you go. What is an ‘authentic’ relationship? When can you say: “this is acting, this is truth”? What is, in fact, role-playing, and what role do we play when we’re not role-playing at all? Etc
[2011/05/03 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah like Liz Tailor and Richard Burton.
[2011/05/03 15:53]  Lem Skall: Extie, b ut how much are you playing someone similar to your rl persona and how far are you rp-ing away from that rl persona?
[2011/05/03 15:53]  Plywood Engineer: oh, Liz been a serial romantic. better finding a second example 🙂
[2011/05/03 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Authentic” relationship is when we feel the warmth and dapness of someone’s breath on our faces when they’re talking about ‘love’ 😉
[2011/05/03 15:53]  Takiro Lowey: Extropia: Depends very much on your definition of what is authentic
[2011/05/03 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *dampness
[2011/05/03 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah I guess it does depend on that.
[2011/05/03 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I claim that we are ALWAYS acting. Always.
[2011/05/03 15:54]  Plywood Engineer: all 5 senses
[2011/05/03 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And we play different roles from a day to another!
[2011/05/03 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Plywood, one cannot talk about loive over the phone then.
[2011/05/03 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And blind people are unable to love. Or deaf ones.
[2011/05/03 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: finally someone I can agree with, thank you for coming Gwyn :p
[2011/05/03 15:54]  druth Vlodovic: I suspect that people who are offended by roleplaying are really playing roles themselves, but unwilling to acknowledge it to themselves
[2011/05/03 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Romantic relationships via letters..
[2011/05/03 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Interesting thought that, druth.
[2011/05/03 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: druth: think about it. Do you play the same role at home, at school at your job, with your ‘drink pals’?
[2011/05/03 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: Roleplaying without honesty hmmmm
[2011/05/03 15:55]  druth Vlodovic: and probably afraid on a deeper level of being found out
[2011/05/03 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2011/05/03 15:55]  Takiro Lowey: I’m sorry need to go, thank you for your thoughts.
[2011/05/03 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye Takiro!
[2011/05/03 15:56]  druth Vlodovic: the thing is I know what the differences are between those roles, and why they are there
[2011/05/03 15:56]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Takiro
[2011/05/03 15:56]  Takiro Lowey: /me smiles and waves farewell.
[2011/05/03 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Thanks for coming:)
[2011/05/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know that, druth…. what about everybody else?
[2011/05/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean… my colleagues at work would be shocked to know the roles I play with my friends ;=
[2011/05/03 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well perhaps not shocked
[2011/05/03 15:57]  druth Vlodovic: I would hope so, my kids know the distinction between me being their parent and a friend, people don’t expect me to act the same in a bar as at work
[2011/05/03 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But certainly say, “oh, that’s Gwyn, she’s not herself at home; at work, there’s where the ‘real’ Gwyn is”
[2011/05/03 15:57]  Plywood Engineer: very valid points, indeed. one can be blinded by love, or turn deaf against his partners after years of marriage
[2011/05/03 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, druth
[2011/05/03 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You don’t ACT the same.
[2011/05/03 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or: you don’t play the same role.
[2011/05/03 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So which one is “more true”?
[2011/05/03 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’d probably answer “both” (most people will!)
[2011/05/03 15:58]  Plywood Engineer: society forces us into fullfilling roles
[2011/05/03 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I wouldn’t say “force”; but sure, it conditions the way we accept certain roles
[2011/05/03 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point is… it’s just acting.
[2011/05/03 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We “pretend” to be succeessful businesspersons at work.
[2011/05/03 15:59]  Plywood Engineer: so you can elude your role, evade into a VR world. But … would that environment not impose other roles to fullfill?
[2011/05/03 15:59]  druth Vlodovic: who I am determines how I play my various roles
[2011/05/03 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or is it the other way round, druth? remember, I cannot read your mind; but I can see what roles you play and draw my conclusions from that!
[2011/05/03 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok Gwyn but if a someone said ‘hey I can date someone from work AND be married to you, because at work I play a different role’, I doubt many wives/husbands would agree.
[2011/05/03 16:00]  Plywood Engineer: “now straigthen up and behave like an ork! you are of the horde, now”
[2011/05/03 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Plywood: certainly! If I go out dancing, I play a different role than going to the opera.
[2011/05/03 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s about DATING, Extie? 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:01]  Lem Skall: you may act in different ways in rl but there is still a common thread between all of those ways, you act the way you want to be and see yourself, not in a calculated way of wanting be something different
[2011/05/03 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: LOTRO orcs would be pissed off at warhammer orcs., and both would be aghast at WoW orcs
[2011/05/03 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: welll…I guess so..But then Art never said dating, just ‘relationships’.
[2011/05/03 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “At work, I’m surrounded by beauticful, muscular boys all the time, we talk almost ininterruptily all theb time, smell each other when in very close quarters (inside a meeting room), but, dear, don’t worry, this is just ‘work'” 😉
[2011/05/03 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeah, right. 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Zo:)
[2011/05/03 16:02]  Plywood Engineer: SL seems to be pretty relaxed about races. you don’t have to choose between dwarf, elf, the usual … add hobbits
[2011/05/03 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Hey, I guess I’m a little late, did I miss much?
[2011/05/03 16:02]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zobe 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, we just ‘shut down’ our minds to reality and say: “oh, this is a work environment, it’s perfectlyh natural to do that in a work environment”
[2011/05/03 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: Some rleplayng can be so from the heart it is far more emergent and noncalculating than ‘normative behavior’/ Like freeform jazz.
[2011/05/03 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Zo!)
[2011/05/03 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: ey zobi
[2011/05/03 16:03]  druth Vlodovic: rp can be more honest, if you act the way you’re really like to do you can and blame it on your character lol
[2011/05/03 16:04]  Plywood Engineer: I like the jazz comparison. RP-ing compares with cooperative storytelling, acting on stage, almost like a band of musicians
[2011/05/03 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Another typical, stupid example…. someone is terribly jealous about their partners. They don’t even want others to *see* them. Nevertheless, in the bus or the subway, people are packed together like sardines in a tin… and that’s all right. Going to a rave party… all right too. Being in a virtual world… OOPS!
[2011/05/03 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: I have taken steps to make sure my primary doesn’t keep spawning new competion. I took over root command privileges. I want sole dibs on the inheritance,
[2011/05/03 16:05]  Plywood Engineer: personal space requirements
[2011/05/03 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: I refornatted my primary.
[2011/05/03 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: But, if the bus and rave is a load of strangers, whereas the V world is where you have developed a very intimate, emotional attachment to a particular someone…would that justify seeing it as more of a threat?
[2011/05/03 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My point is simply that we ‘label’ what we do in ‘virtual worlds’ as ‘role.playing0” and attach different ‘values’ to what happens there. In reality, we are continuously, playing roles and acting all the time, non-stop.
[2011/05/03 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, what could be more intimite than being very closely pressed together to someone in a bus? 😀
[2011/05/03 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and what could be more emotional than that??
[2011/05/03 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: You cant say that Gwyn. It makes a mockery of catechism and free will and sin.
[2011/05/03 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh that is not intimate.
[2011/05/03 16:06]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): That’s just proximate, Gwyn 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:06]  Plywood Engineer: you seriously can’t act OOC @ RL. Perhaps beeing off the protocoll for some remarks
[2011/05/03 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Khannea: that’s perhaps the reason I’m saying it 😉 )
[2011/05/03 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, give me an example of the difference, Violet & Extie 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A distinguishing feature.
[2011/05/03 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What makes proximity NOT intimacy, and vice-versa?
[2011/05/03 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s what you say?
[2011/05/03 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What you feel?
[2011/05/03 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How you… act? 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:08]  druth Vlodovic: personal emotional attachment, I can get way more intimate with somone on chat then I can with a stranger in a bus (mind you, I’ve never been pressed *that* closely to people in a bus)
[2011/05/03 16:08]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Intimacy is knowing someone–whether light or trivial or something essential to who they are
[2011/05/03 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I have, druth hehe )
[2011/05/03 16:08]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Proximity is just being in poking range 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “knowing” someone. Mmh.
[2011/05/03 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean, making a mental picture of what we perceive their current role to be? 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok. Say I am sat next to Arisia but Lem and I right now are swapping really intimate IMS. I would say that it is not Arisia and I who are being more intimate, even if we are sat right next to each other. You can be next to someone AND very distant.
[2011/05/03 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So distance in that context is about attempting to read someone’s mind; which we do all the time 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In a bus, you’re not worried about that, so it’s not ‘intimate’
[2011/05/03 16:10]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): No, not always. Usually we see someone as who we think they are, but sometimes we can be open to every facet of another…that’s the highest kind of intimacy, I think.
[2011/05/03 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In a , uh, ‘relatgionship’, you’re trying to read other people’s minds
[2011/05/03 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that’s intimacy.
[2011/05/03 16:10]  Plywood Engineer: Extropia, that’s not the way this usually goes. one can flirt across a distance, but most often partners quickly try to reduce that distance. you surely don’t act out a flirt across the privacy zones of third persons
[2011/05/03 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like the bit about being open-minded about others, Violet!
[2011/05/03 16:10]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What stops you from being open-minded towards *everybody*, *all the time*? 😉
[2011/05/03 16:11]  Lem Skall: Extie, what if in rl your primary is typing while sitting naked on someone’s lap but not saying anything and at the same time you are IMing with me about it? what is more intimate?
[2011/05/03 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, side issue… perhaps not too relevant
[2011/05/03 16:11]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It’s exhausting! :p
[2011/05/03 16:11]  druth Vlodovic: if you’re trying to read minds in a relationship I’d say you’re headed for trouble
[2011/05/03 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: druth, I’ve yet failed to meet a single sentient being that is NOT attempting to read other people’s minds, all the time.
[2011/05/03 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: True Plywood. But you can imagine sitting next to someone on a bus who spends the whole journey texting to some sweetheart while not noticing you exist. So I do not think it follows that if you sit next to someone on a bus, you have a relationship with that person.
[2011/05/03 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There might be some, yes, but I never met any.
[2011/05/03 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: See now? The original statement of Art is just posturing. It means nothing. For HIM it was a tendentious meaningful statement. But the variables and context of this statement is sooooo objective that other people can comnplely disagree with him. But I undesratdn Trophy in askig this. She feels she might be attacked on her essential citizinship rights because some underwhelming british tart she wants nothing to do with is accused of being ‘insincere’.
[2011/05/03 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Art is the female one, Khannea. Scarp is the ‘he’.
[2011/05/03 16:12]  Plywood Engineer: reading minds probably been the false description. percieving moods, emphaty, more along that … right description missing here
[2011/05/03 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins
[2011/05/03 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Like that means anything
[2011/05/03 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: but yes, quite so Khannea.
[2011/05/03 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, well, WHY does someone *wish* to ‘perceive moods’ and the like? What they want to do is to have a mental picture of what the other person is thinking. We humans are constantly doing that. We’re very good at it, as a matter of fact. I just call it ‘reading minds’ because it’s more honest 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:14]  Camilla Delvalle: See you another week, Bye.
[2011/05/03 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now the question is: do you need your five senses to read someone else’s mind?
[2011/05/03 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2011/05/03 16:14]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Camilla
[2011/05/03 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: no, Gwyn.
[2011/05/03 16:14]  druth Vlodovic: still, not a good thing to expect people to “read” you , I didn’t say people don’t, just that it is a bad habit to expect them to do it and be disappointed if they fail at accuracy
[2011/05/03 16:15]  Plywood Engineer: there surely exists a need of emotional connection between partners
[2011/05/03 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say, “No”. Or blind/deaf/otherwise impaired people would never “fall in love”.
[2011/05/03 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is an “emotional connection”? How many Kbps does that kind of connection have? 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:16]  druth Vlodovic: if you can communicate in any manner you can create a connection
[2011/05/03 16:16]  Plywood Engineer: above 2, but below 3.5
[2011/05/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and of course I agree with the ‘no’, Extie)
[2011/05/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Eureka, druth!
[2011/05/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There we go 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Communication between people = relationship
[2011/05/03 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmm nasty. I am involved with someone who I can argue is mentally not fully capable of love. I won’t mention the type of disorder but some psyciatrists agree.
[2011/05/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: edge cases are terrible to prove theories 😉
[2011/05/03 16:17]  druth Vlodovic: next time you drink her blood finish the job
[2011/05/03 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Well, the oint is that love is a frail emotional state that CAN be impaired, rioght?
[2011/05/03 16:17]  Lem Skall: Khan, how are YOU more capable of love?
[2011/05/03 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then again, I’d be very interested in those psychiatrists’ ‘definition’ of ‘love’
[2011/05/03 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok Gwyn but say I love you and you love me but you do not know my primary and I do not know yours. So um…from our primary’s perspective what does it MEAN to type ‘I love you? WHO is ‘in love’? from the RL perspective is it not a delusion to say you are in love? Or no?
[2011/05/03 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (did someone define ‘love’ so far?)
[2011/05/03 16:18]  Plywood Engineer: there surely exists a medical definition of beeing “psychiatrist”
[2011/05/03 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah well, “I love therefore I am’ I’d say
[2011/05/03 16:18]  Lem Skall: is there a medical definition of love?
[2011/05/03 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scratch the first question, Extie, and ask yourself truly: “Who is this ‘me’ that is in love with that ‘you’?” VR RL, letters, smoke signals, that’s just the communication medium. The crucial point is the “Me” and “you”
[2011/05/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that’s what I was hoping to hear, Lem!)
[2011/05/03 16:19]  Plywood Engineer: someone mentioned it’s close to beeing insane. slightly out of your mind. like in “I must be crazy”
[2011/05/03 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah a rise in oxytocin and um…some other neurotransmitters whose name I do not recall.
[2011/05/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that’s passion.
[2011/05/03 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: Love is generally characteriszed as the sincere desire to see someone els4e happy over your own happyness
[2011/05/03 16:19]  Lem Skall: drug-induced love? otherwise known as love potion?
[2011/05/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A perfect definition, Khannea!
[2011/05/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me claps
[2011/05/03 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: My favourite definition of love is ‘a gross exaggeration of the difference of someone compared to everyone else’.
[2011/05/03 16:20]  Plywood Engineer: when you are in love, you don’t think about love. you think about someone else, most of your time
[2011/05/03 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: Then I must be guilty
[2011/05/03 16:20]  Lem Skall: so love impaired is someone who cannot grossly exaggerate?
[2011/05/03 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m a bit more altruistic than Khannea: love is the overwhelming desire of seeing someone else (or everybody else, for that matter) happy. No strings attached.
[2011/05/03 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, I find that to be the case, Ply.
[2011/05/03 16:21]  Plywood Engineer: that reminds me of the Fight Club theme. 1st rule.
[2011/05/03 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: and the 2nd!
[2011/05/03 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also agree with that, Ply, but there is a slight difference. One is thinking all the time about someone else as “belonging” to you (“that’s my boyfriend” for example)
[2011/05/03 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other is thinking all the time, “how can I make X happy?” That’s quite different.
[2011/05/03 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: The c.lue is that kove means you sometimes choose the other over your own comforts.
[2011/05/03 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed.
[2011/05/03 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Mostly you don’t have to.
[2011/05/03 16:22]  Plywood Engineer: obsessive vs. possessive relationships?
[2011/05/03 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because the loved one responds in kind. Agreed as well.
[2011/05/03 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ply: yes!
[2011/05/03 16:22]  druth Vlodovic: you can love someone without wanting necessarily to posess them, you just feel happier when youy do
[2011/05/03 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or rather…. obsessive/possessive vs altruistic
[2011/05/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really, druth? Hehe
[2011/05/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, no 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: no?
[2011/05/03 16:23]  druth Vlodovic: I wouldn’t call a desire to own somone “love”
[2011/05/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: druth: I agree with that 😉
[2011/05/03 16:23]  Plywood Engineer: …we should sent druth somewhere, clad in Silks
[2011/05/03 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: The problem in this is health
[2011/05/03 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: how so, Khannea?
[2011/05/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: no, in the sense that you actually feel MORE happy if you don’t worry about ‘possession’
[2011/05/03 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: When I am healthy, physically or oitherwise I can love
[2011/05/03 16:24]  druth Vlodovic: ugh, tried that, got spooked and ran off, wasn’t expecting that
[2011/05/03 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: But an houir later I can be suddenly acutely inpaired
[2011/05/03 16:24]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I become too neurotic in possessive or relational (“my boyfriend” referring to yourself in relation to someone else) love.
[2011/05/03 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: you’re sadly one of the edge cases….
[2011/05/03 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: My ex saw the love vanish from my eyes in like 30 minutes
[2011/05/03 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: Cluster Headaches completely strips any capacity for empathy
[2011/05/03 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Violet:; as you should., Because that’s not a ‘healthy’ form of relationship, and it’s only natural to feel that way.
[2011/05/03 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Sure Jealousy is a bad emotion. Harmful. But complete lack of jealousy might be interpreted as ‘could not care less about you’. Which is also bad in its own way.
[2011/05/03 16:25]  druth Vlodovic: love is climate, not weather, it isn’t current mood
[2011/05/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh that is a very, very complex issue, Extie 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: I would rather have a slightly jealous partner than a totally indifferent one:)
[2011/05/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Surprisingly, a LOT of people ythink that way, lolç
[2011/05/03 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, alas, sorry to disappoint you, Extie, but that is truly just a problem with self-esteem 😉
[2011/05/03 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No offense intended.
[2011/05/03 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, we’re on a slight side-track because…. I’d really wanted to point to the issue, which is the “communication” aspect
[2011/05/03 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No communication, no relationship.
[2011/05/03 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree.
[2011/05/03 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: So love should be regarded as the functional capacity of healthy people, right? Impair features of the mind, and the specific function of love malfunctions. Ho hum is it safe to say7 that love isn’t a ‘universal’ but rather ho huim a functionally evolved subroutine? An ‘adaptation’ ?
[2011/05/03 16:27]  druth Vlodovic: this is why expectation of mind reading is so corrosive to a relationship
[2011/05/03 16:27]  Plywood Engineer: whichever form it takes
[2011/05/03 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now… for the past, uh, 150,000 years or so, we homo sapiens have preferred communication to happen in physical proximity, because we didn’t have alternatives; only in the past 6,000 years or so we have added a new medium, “writing letters”
[2011/05/03 16:28]  Plywood Engineer: exactly! that “writing SMS” example
[2011/05/03 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: 3 minutes folks. Time to boil an egg or to say some concluding statements to wrap up this topic:)
[2011/05/03 16:28]  Plywood Engineer: twitter-love
[2011/05/03 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: druth: yes, but NOT doing that is discarding humanity hehe
[2011/05/03 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: I can also saw that our idea of romantic love is a fictional sentimental idea that didnt exist till a fewhunfdred years ago. I might even say it only energed as such in the late victorian age.
[2011/05/03 16:29]  druth Vlodovic: eh, why are cat-people so popular? you always know what a cat is thinking
[2011/05/03 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: WTF
[2011/05/03 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So my point ois… 150,000 years using body language and speech to communicate. 6,000 years for the written word. 10 years of SL. Surely we cannot adapt THAT quickly 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: That is what a cat things *WTF!*
[2011/05/03 16:29]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Cat people are popular? I thought we were social pariahs.
[2011/05/03 16:29]  druth Vlodovic: lol
[2011/05/03 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: There is a cat on Youtube who seems to be thinking WTF, Khannea.
[2011/05/03 16:30]  druth Vlodovic: lots and lots of social pariahs around 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: I am sure you know the one…
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Cat people are popular for only short intervals of 5-15 mnutes.
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I agree on the ‘romantic love’ aspect, Khannea; it’s really a fiction 🙂 )
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): They should start a club! 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn you have no SOUL!
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: First rule of cat peope club
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m pretty sure I haven’t, Extie 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Correct she’
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Lem Skall: my guess is love has existed for longer than a few hundreds of years, it must be as old as art and they have a similar base and art is thousands of years old
[2011/05/03 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: is a ginger
[2011/05/03 16:31]  Plywood Engineer: this kind of fiction seems to be popular, amoungst the young people
[2011/05/03 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: ..Oh yeah:)
[2011/05/03 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ply: sure, it’s a meme that is widespread 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:31]  Lem Skall: it’s just that most people could not afford art nor love
[2011/05/03 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Memes do not exist. Pass it on.
[2011/05/03 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahahahaha
[2011/05/03 16:31]  druth Vlodovic: if love was just invented it sperad pretty quickly, and lasted much longer than cabbage patch dolls
[2011/05/03 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK and with that….my time is up.
[2011/05/03 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A wonderful paradox, Extie 🙂 Love it 🙂
[2011/05/03 16:31]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me feels her brain melt.
[2011/05/03 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: druth: ‘romantic love’
[2011/05/03 16:32]  Plywood Engineer: Lem, everybody can do their own art or love
[2011/05/03 16:32]  Plywood Engineer: …you don’t have to buy
[2011/05/03 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Love” as the desire to make other happy has existed for quite a LONG time
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2 Responses to THINKERS MAY 03 2011: ART’S ROLEPLAYING PARADOX

  1. Serendipity Seraph says:

    The best role playing is like the best acting. You become the role or the character with everything you can possibly bring to it. This is required to become much of a digital person in SL and other worlds. How can you be an authentic self outside your primary’s physically based life and circumstances unless you do such full living into the alt selfs you design and fill? How could you be in love or deeply relate in a virtual world unless you are as fully present in the world as possible? For this kind of RP, the hypothesis is dead wrong.

  2. Serendipity Seraph says:

    Also, really good RP folks tend to be imaginative, empathic, and take some pains to learn to project really well what they want to offer into the world/scene/situation. This does not mean they are manipulating. Projection of being does not determine whether what you are projecting is good or ill, an abstraction, a manipulation or purely for the joy of it or just exploring alternate self-spaces. It is like learning to play an instrument really well gives you the skill to innovate and riff and be “spontaneous” is more interesting ways.

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