THINKERS APRIL 14 2011: WHITEHEAD’S UTOPIA

Morgaine Dinova at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is WHITEHEAD’S UTOPIA…
[2011/04/12 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Alfred North Whitehead once said: “Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them”. At first glance, this seems to imply ‘utopia’ is achieved when people no longer have to think at all. But I find it hard to believe Whitehead meant this. So what did he mean?
[2011/04/12 15:33]  Ste Sullivan: I’d say he’s about right.
[2011/04/12 15:33]  Lem Skall: what is “thinking”?
[2011/04/12 15:34]  Lem Skall: don’t we think all the time even when we pass on some of the thinking to something else and don’t we just make room for other “thinking”?
[2011/04/12 15:34]  Ste Sullivan: In the future we could be like gods. We DO things, rather than think about them.
[2011/04/12 15:34]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): You know – by saying it implies Utopia is achieved when people no long have to think at all – you imply that the number of important operations is finite.
[2011/04/12 15:34]  Camilla Delvalle: I’d say an increase in operations made without thinking doesn’t necessarily mean that the number of processes that needs thinking will decrease.
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: I think if he said that, then that’s what he meant
[2011/04/12 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m thinking he is saying this in the context of survival operations. Things we need to do to survive well.
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): The more important operations we can do without thinking – the more new important operations open up to our view.
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Luisa Bourgoin: complex operations like “driving a car” which includes running processes that had been quite difficult to operate ages ago
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Is survival important?
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: if he meant something else than he said, then he should spend more time learning how to express own ideas
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Actually, I think there’s a semantic riddle there, where “thinking” means something different than conscious thinking.
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Camilla Delvalle: On the contrary, the number of operations the requires thinking might increase when culture becomes more complex.
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Morgaine Dinova: /me waves to all the peoples, and thanks Ari for TP 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Lem Skall: I think he means we will only unload some of the thinking that is otherwise boring and mechanical to mechanical devices and we will be left with the creative thinking
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Morgie:))
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We don’t have to be actively aware of everything going on inside a toaster to make toast, but we can still understand it, if we want.
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Arisia Vita: yw
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Ste Sullivan: We are trying to decrease our own personal entropy.
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Welcome back to Thinkers,
[2011/04/12 15:35]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Extie 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:36]  Luisa Bourgoin: wb kitty
[2011/04/12 15:36]  Morgaine Dinova: Thanks 🙂 Topic sounded good when you told me on weekend 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:36]  Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Luisa, nice to see you too 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:36]  soulful selkie (eppie.shoreman): Perhaps more people will work on expanding their minds, projecting their subtle bodies, etc
[2011/04/12 15:37]  Luisa Bourgoin: Ataraxia, we might decide to try & understand some of the technology we use … but *everything* of it is no more archiveable, at all
[2011/04/12 15:37]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): *sighs*
[2011/04/12 15:37]  Lem Skall: hi Gwyn
[2011/04/12 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me says a delayed hi
[2011/04/12 15:38]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Gwyn 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo
[2011/04/12 15:38]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Hi, Gwyn!
[2011/04/12 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey Gwyn. Morgie is back:)
[2011/04/12 15:38]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Gwyn 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: Looks to me the critical part of Whithead’s sentence there is to define what he means by ‘Important Operations’.
[2011/04/12 15:38]  Lem Skall: what kind of a monster would hurt a kitty like that?
[2011/04/12 15:38]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mostly making toast, I think 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:39]  soulful selkie (eppie.shoreman): Do you mean P.G. Bowen?
[2011/04/12 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: but, serious attempt at the topic: it’s more of that technology relieves us from having to think about trivial stuff, so we can put our brains to better use, not to no use at all, though that doesn’t seem to be the case with all human beings
[2011/04/12 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe the more important an operation is, the less glamerous. I mean, look at SL. Probably the things that need fixing first the least interesting.
[2011/04/12 15:39]  Lem Skall: I really think we need to separate mechanical thinking from creative thinking
[2011/04/12 15:39]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): The classic problem open source programs have with finding people to do documentation – it’s not sexy enough.
[2011/04/12 15:39]  Morgaine Dinova: Creative thinking is merely mechanical thinking that’s broken 😛
[2011/04/12 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Morgaine
[2011/04/12 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s a bold statement!
[2011/04/12 15:40]  Morgaine Dinova: Add a touch of random, there’s youre creativity 😛
[2011/04/12 15:40]  Lem Skall: Morg, isn’t it the other way around?
[2011/04/12 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: ARe important operations things like how we get our food and transportation and even media. It does seem as time goes by we need to know less and less about the how of those things.
[2011/04/12 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: and anal sex is sex that went wrong? 😀
[2011/04/12 15:40]  Luisa Bourgoin: the lesser attention onto detail got consumed onto operations, the more we expand out activities. There is no “savings in thinking” visible
[2011/04/12 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: It would have to work both ways if one related to the other, surely?
[2011/04/12 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh I’d say “mechanical thinking” is more deuctive; while “creative thinking” is more inductive…
[2011/04/12 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we need both
[2011/04/12 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *deductive
[2011/04/12 15:41]  Luisa Bourgoin: like energy consumption efficiency … total consumption still on the raise
[2011/04/12 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is no evidence of thinking left in America these days… ha ha ha
[2011/04/12 15:41]  Morgaine Dinova: Well, it’s a nice topic. Maybe Extie will give us 5 mins to discuss it. But it’s not the topic of this Thinkers 😛
[2011/04/12 15:41]  Lem Skall: ??? Luisa, what?
[2011/04/12 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, Art… 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shakes head*
[2011/04/12 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Where did the brains go, Art? Galt’s Gulch?
[2011/04/12 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: They went to Rupert Murdoch land….
[2011/04/12 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: The land where up is down and black is white
[2011/04/12 15:42]  Lem Skall: you mean Fox?
[2011/04/12 15:42]  Camilla Delvalle: Isn’t that in England?
[2011/04/12 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Woot I win the ‘slip an Ayn Rand reference into Thinkers’ award.
[2011/04/12 15:42]  Morgaine Dinova: Faux News
[2011/04/12 15:42]  Lem Skall: Extie, I saw that
[2011/04/12 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: anyone else thinking about the brain monsters from futurama?
[2011/04/12 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Should we be?
[2011/04/12 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: regarding nobody thinking in US
[2011/04/12 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:43]  Lem Skall: be what?
[2011/04/12 15:43]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): My brainslug won’t let me.
[2011/04/12 15:44]  Morgaine Dinova: So, re the topic. Have we got rid of the “Utopia” part yet? Because of course it’s a total non-sequitur from what Whitehead said.
[2011/04/12 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: You know there is a lot of discussion nowadays around the concept that the idea of ‘progress’ is a myth.
[2011/04/12 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No more utopias; we want Extropias 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:44]  Ste Sullivan: I don’ think there is a utopia.
[2011/04/12 15:45]  Camilla Delvalle: I just watched a documentary about pollution. Among other things they claimed that humans were becoming less intelligent because of all the poisons everywhere.
[2011/04/12 15:45]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It pretty much is.
[2011/04/12 15:45]  Ste Sullivan: Humans will always want things to be better than they are, even if they’re as good as they can possibly be.
[2011/04/12 15:45]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Increased complexity is just….increased complexity, both good and bad.
[2011/04/12 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Sherry Turkle talks about using machines at ‘interface value’. Computers, for instance. We manipulate icons and menus and do not generally use the machine code language. So we can use a computer without really understanding much at all about how it works. Is this related to Whitehead?
[2011/04/12 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Change is not to be confused with progress.
[2011/04/12 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Progress as myth. Hmm. I have to disagree: we have better health, more access to food, more leisure… and I don’t mean only “us”, I mean the whole world. That is certainly “progress”
[2011/04/12 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: utopia would be when we can think about anything anytime and still live a wonderful life
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: someone must carry arround an “Utopia” romance inside her heart
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Ste Sullivan: The world probably has less access to food if you think of population growth.
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): I loved some of the concepts in Moore’s Utopia, certainly…
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Ste Sullivan: Demand is out-stripping supply.
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): No, Ste – actually, even with population growth, there’s more food.
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Lem Skall: oh, interesting point, Extie
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara said it.
[2011/04/12 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: One must have to dystopia to compare utopia to. Otherwise it is just sameness.
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: another progress: civilisation deseases
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): The problem with food is all political.
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not believe in a perfect world. But the best we can do, given current knowledge and technological capability, I can believe that is achieveable.
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear, Tara!
[2011/04/12 15:46]  Morgaine Dinova: Whether there is or can be isn’t the point. The point is that what Whitehead said doesn’t imply anything about Utopias. He was talking about “advance” of civilization. Nowhere was there any suggestion that the advance is towards “perfection”, nor that such a thing is even possible. So Whitehead’s statement is interesting, but the sentence about “Utopia” isn’t related to it.
[2011/04/12 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia: I think so too.
[2011/04/12 15:47]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): People block others from getting food, to maintain power.
[2011/04/12 15:47]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It makes a good title, Morgaine :p
[2011/04/12 15:47]  Ste Sullivan: That’s true, Tara.
[2011/04/12 15:47]  Ste Sullivan: But it was probably inevitable.
[2011/04/12 15:47]  Camilla Delvalle: Population growth will decline when fertility goes down because of pollution.
[2011/04/12 15:47]  Ste Sullivan: There’s still not enough food.
[2011/04/12 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that ‘advance’ in the way he is using it implies progress towards something, Morg
[2011/04/12 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And despite that, Tara, the fact is that more people get more food — in spite of population growth AND political issues.
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): There’s plenty of food. That the food doesn’t get where it’s needed is not the food supply’s fault.
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Ste, we don’t klive in an utopia yet 🙂 1 billion is starving; another billion is close to that.
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh hello Zo:)
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Ste Sullivan: food supply doesn’t have a mind of it’s own. It’s humaity’s fault.
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But overall — relative AND absolute — more people have more food.
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: if we stopped killing animals for food, and used the food the animal farms consume to people (in a different form, mind you) there should be enough food
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Does progress have to be *towards* something?
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Lem Skall: why are we talking about food?
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: that beaing said, I love meat
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because I’+m hungry!
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Can’t it be *away* from where what is?
[2011/04/12 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: How else could you measure it, Tara?
[2011/04/12 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Progress by definition is going toward something
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm!
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: not necessary
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Away rather than towards.
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: progress can be from something
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Luisa Bourgoin: could humanity ever control birth rate? like in … controlling crude oil consumption
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Ste Sullivan: We were talking about food because we’re talking about mankind’s progress.
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: or compared to something
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Morgaine Dinova: ArtCrash: “movement towards something new” is the only sense of “advance”, unless we’re talking about pure technology where the sense of “advance” is clearer because it’s related to ever greater capability.
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Camilla Delvalle: Progress could as well mean going away from something. Maybe?
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Lem Skall: Extie, it doesn’t have to be TOWARDS something, it can be AWAY from something
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Science is loosely defined as “gathering knowledge to improve the human condition”… 😉 Or at least, so I was being persuaded to view it. So, all science is progress.
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: True, Lem.
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: we made big progress compared to past, that doesn’t mean we are progressing towards anything
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): The measure is not how close you come to a mythical perfection – it can be away from the problems.
[2011/04/12 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: +what Lem said 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: movement toward something new can also be contained in ‘decline’.
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We mkmight be going around in circles, Ivy? 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): And perhaps that’s what Whitehead actually meant?
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sounds pretty revolutionary, Gwyn :p
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Morgaine Dinova: The UK is “advancing” towards a police state. Is that “progress”? Some say yes, some say no. We can’t even agree on the sign for social advances.
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: going in circles is my specialty
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Ivy 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m grinning but… there is some truth in that — “Going in circles” is actually not uncommon 😉
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): As “Important Operations” no longer need be thought about – that can be considered a problem solved.
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: not just UK, I’m afraid
[2011/04/12 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Someone Rez a board game between Morgie and Gwyn:)
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *chuckles*
[2011/04/12 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that progress implies moving towards ‘good’ or ‘better’, as opposed to ‘bad’ or ‘worse’.
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: any democracy + enough time = oh shit
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Ivy!
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Going in Circles – reminds me of that song “Third Rock From The Sun”
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, it’s not that bad, Ivy 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Morgaine Dinova: Technology aside, society doesn’t actually “advance” at all. It changes.
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: prove me wrong 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Ste Sullivan: So in other words were all f***ed. 😉
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Lem Skall: Art, rather INTO than TOWARDS
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: But if you move away from the bad, are you then necessarily moving towards the good?
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): There can be a lot of different betters, though, ArtCrash…
[2011/04/12 15:51]  soulful selkie (eppie.shoreman): sorry, I have to go. interesting discussion
[2011/04/12 15:51]  Luisa Bourgoin: progress in the first place equals movement. on an arbitrary scale
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye:)
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Ste Sullivan: Bye Eppie
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I would postulate that we have a few ways to measure progress.
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Luisa Bourgoin: scale often dubbed “progress”
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I mostly feel like Kafka…”A belief in progress doesn’t necessarily entail a belief that any has been made.” 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Eppie 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): And – indeed – there can be other bads we could go towards.
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Camilla Delvalle: Even if civilization advances, it is not sure that it advances towards “utopia”.
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d be fine if the advance is in “making more people happier”
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: it might advance towards utopia for political class!
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Ste Sullivan: Firt thing you need to do is define “utopia”. It could mean different things to different people.
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: If utopia is impossible then you clearly cannot advance towards it.
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Ste Sullivan: *First
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. It never left that I’m afraid, Ivy
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Luisa Bourgoin: economy can advance … down the river. so much about progress and growth
[2011/04/12 15:52]  Lem Skall: if it is utopia then we are not moving towards it because it does not exist
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha. Lem spotted it 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Has anyone actually read Saint Thomas Moore’s book ‘Utopia’?
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): In fact, in the spirit of Churchill’s “Jaw Jaw is better than War War” – is it better, really, if the diplomats jawing keep jawing so they can avoid actually *doing* anything about problems.
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): /me raises his hand.
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes
[2011/04/12 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: I myself have been convinced of the argument that progress is a myth.
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): I have, Extropia.
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Ages and ages and ages ago.
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: “Making more people happier” might well be what’s happening, by making them think less and less about anything while docily watching the telly.
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: How does he define it?
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Camilla Delvalle: No, that’s the only book I haven’t read.
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Luisa Bourgoin: oh I would like to hear a summary on this book!
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just the abdirged version, Extropia 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *abridged even
[2011/04/12 15:54]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): He doesn’t define it so much as describe his vision of it.
[2011/04/12 15:54]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): An island, with a lost castaway washing up to learn about it.
[2011/04/12 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: I have it on Kindle. IT is free. So we are progressing toward utopia:)
[2011/04/12 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Morgaine: certainly in many cases, I won’t deny that. But at least they get fed better and have more access to medicine too.
[2011/04/12 15:54]  Lem Skall: when are they going to make the movie?
[2011/04/12 15:54]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): A lot of descriptions of customs – many of which boil down to reducing secrecy/privacy.
[2011/04/12 15:55]  Camilla Delvalle: But Lem, there is no movie so they can’t make a remake. Thus they can’t make a movie.
[2011/04/12 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Camilla — that means there are no original movies any more? 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:55]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): One in particular that stuck in my mind (I was just pre-teen when I read it) of a couple, about to be married, facing each other completely nude.
[2011/04/12 15:55]  Luisa Bourgoin: on Kindle … could we create a bookshelf from that? poinint onto an url perhaps
[2011/04/12 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: Progress is an investment process. Expending some additional resources (any kind) now, to make things better, more efficient, more plentiful (etc.) into the future.
[2011/04/12 15:56]  Morgaine Dinova: Does the Blue Pill give you Utopia? The fact that a docile TV-watching population is happy doesn’t necessarily indicate enlightenment.
[2011/04/12 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would say if you haven’t faced your partner nude previously, you SHOULDN’T get married! ha ha ha
[2011/04/12 15:56]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Project Gutenberg has it.
[2011/04/12 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Getting back to the topic…Imagine if you could make anything happen in SL just by willing it. Like, the interface is so intuitive you do not need to think about the operations involved. I think Whitehead meant something along those lines. You still WORK, still THINK, but the intermediate steps between idea and creation are handled subconsciously.
[2011/04/12 15:56]  Lem Skall: Art, facing each other is not necessary, it can be face to back
[2011/04/12 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, Zo.
[2011/04/12 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha Lem
[2011/04/12 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: Is enlightenment required for utopia? Wasn’t it enlightenment the reason why adam and eve got kicked out of the paradise?
[2011/04/12 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, it was bad editing, Ivy 😉
[2011/04/12 15:57]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): But there’s still a process going on underneath the shimmers. So, someone still has to think about the dull stuff 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:57]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): So the creation becomes a step towards a more complex creation that one is thinking about.
[2011/04/12 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: my grammar fails at this time of the day 🙂
[2011/04/12 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Someone…or thing?
[2011/04/12 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I can imagine a society of slaves where things work exactly like that, Extie — it’s fine for the ones not being slaves, of course 😉
[2011/04/12 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, *artificial* slaves mmmh
[2011/04/12 15:58]  Lem Skall: Extie, do you think about typing? do you think about moving your fingers and tapping on the keyboard?
[2011/04/12 15:58]  Camilla Delvalle: But doesn’t this also mean that the user is alienated from the production process?
[2011/04/12 15:58]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: Yes, that’s what I think he meant. Not anything anything Utopic, just getting more done per unit of effort. But once you can get that much done per unit of effort, then of course you want more, so you’re nowhere nearer to any kind of ideal than when you started.
[2011/04/12 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh I leave all that kind of donkey work to the primary, Lem;)
[2011/04/12 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: you are all now thinking about breathing!
[2011/04/12 15:59]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Perhaps, Camilla – people still carve things, despite the existence of automated milling machines that can carve 1,000,000 identical copies.
[2011/04/12 15:59]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me sighs
[2011/04/12 15:59]  Camilla Delvalle: When using advanced tools, one is cut off from the actual work one is doing. Has less real control over it.
[2011/04/12 15:59]  Morgaine Dinova: Camilla: not necessarily.
[2011/04/12 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Look at what Internet and Smartphones have done for us, they have made us work harder and harder. This is not progress.
[2011/04/12 15:59]  Lem Skall: why need control?
[2011/04/12 15:59]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I still make good toast, Camilla 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:00]  Lem Skall: I want results, not process
[2011/04/12 16:00]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): We can let it go, if we want to – but to truly have control, we must be able to go back to the more primitive tools for those aspects they can do better.
[2011/04/12 16:00]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): And I don’t need to understand how keyboards work to type something
[2011/04/12 16:00]  Morgaine Dinova: Technology can give you much finer control if you want it.
[2011/04/12 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: I don’t have a smartphone and I’m working less because of internet 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t need an understanding of physiology to eat.
[2011/04/12 16:00]  Luisa Bourgoin: smartphones are .. sideway movement. horizontal not vertical progress
[2011/04/12 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: what do you mean, Luisa?
[2011/04/12 16:00]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yeah, more or less, Art :p
[2011/04/12 16:01]  Luisa Bourgoin: still a phone, no more. smart or dumb
[2011/04/12 16:01]  Lem Skall: smartphones are stupid but iPad is genius!
[2011/04/12 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: actually, it’s more than a phone, to a degree where you can rip the phone function out and sell it as another product *cough* ipod
[2011/04/12 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that true? an iPhone is a little bit more than just a phone.
[2011/04/12 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: you know ipad is a big smartphone without a phone? 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: I keep being reminded of the Barry Schwartz book, the premise of which is that the more choice we have, the more distressed we become.
[2011/04/12 16:02]  Lem Skall: an iPhone is a toy iPad
[2011/04/12 16:02]  Luisa Bourgoin: a computer has been an archivement. carryable computers even an improvement. but thickness of the casign doesn’t matter that much anymore (besides sales arguments)
[2011/04/12 16:02]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): An iPhone is two devices, packaged into one physical device.
[2011/04/12 16:02]  Camilla Delvalle: When using tools created by others, you are not in your own place, so to speak. What you create is limited by technology that is created by others and that you don’t understand, and one doesn’t even see the limitations inherent in that technology.
[2011/04/12 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: Tara: my computer is then at least 20 devices
[2011/04/12 16:02]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Probably, Ivy.
[2011/04/12 16:02]  Morgaine Dinova: An iPhone is a little more than a phone. It’s a ring through your nose, with Apple holding the string attached to it.
[2011/04/12 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha Morgaine 😀
[2011/04/12 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: ONe doesn’t have to know how to make pigments and brushes to be an artist.
[2011/04/12 16:03]  Luisa Bourgoin: *pun*
[2011/04/12 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: But computers can morph into many machines by virtue of the fact they manipulate the building blocks of information. They can emulate any machine.
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: isn’t a smartphone…. a computer?!
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Lem Skall: Extie, it can’t replace my microwave yet
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Is an emulation of a machine the same thing as that machine?
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes.
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: *instert the OMG tune*
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It’s a baby computer.
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Camilla Delvalle: Art, isn’t it cool to be able make ones own paint?
[2011/04/12 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: a smartphone IS a computer, one that ties you to work continuously.
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Art. Depends, depends
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Luisa Bourgoin: definitely it is not! a highly dependant device … nobody claims a smartphone *replaced* a computer
[2011/04/12 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess your microwave is or is not computationally invarient, Lem. I forget which it is that cannot be simulated.
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Lem Skall: Art, what if you don’t work, does it mean that a smartphone is useless without work?
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Except mobile phone operators, Luisa 😉
[2011/04/12 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: Camilla It might be cool to design SL building tools, but that isn’t necessary to being a virtual world creative builder or artist.
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): If you just keep feeding it lots of attention in your idle moments, then it’ll grow up big and strong and be a workstation! :p
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Ste Sullivan: I’m afraid I have to go. Goodnight everyone.
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: considering you can’t pay for the bills without work, pretty much
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: *chuckles*
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye Ste:)
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Susan Sorensson (iwandertoo): waves
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Ste 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me waves
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Ste Sullivan: Byeee.
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Luisa Bourgoin: technology on equal level could replace each other. between laptops and smartphones there is a vertical gap
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Lem Skall: Ivy, let’s assume you are independently rich
[2011/04/12 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: seeya lata Ste
[2011/04/12 16:05]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): You could win the lotto, Ivy, and pay the bills from the interest.
[2011/04/12 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I use my smartphone mostly to download things from project Gutenberg and read on it… I cannot afford a Kindle, and the smartphone is something given to me by one company I work for 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Reading Spinoza definitely does NOT count as “work” for me, Art 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: One used to be able to ‘go to a lunch meeting’ and be out of touch with work. Now, it is impossible.
[2011/04/12 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: well, I guess you can still use it to watch porn then, oh wait, iphone doesn’t support flash.
[2011/04/12 16:06]  Lem Skall: I have now an iPad and I CAN’T use it for work
[2011/04/12 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really… I turn my phone off when I’m having lunch 😛
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Me too.
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re an addict, Art, not a user 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some companies don’t allow that Gwyn
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Can you get Ipads with 3G or is it just wifi?
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Camilla Delvalle: For some people, reading Spinoza is work, if they work in a university. 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I forgot…. US
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SOrry
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Lem Skall: Ivy, there is porn without flash, I can show you
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): “Mysterious lunchtime battery failure” 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Morgaine Dinova: Since we’re talking about cellphones, let’s check then against what Whitehead said. Do they “extend the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them”?
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): /me kind of thinks Michael Hart is the God of Literature.
[2011/04/12 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes they do Morg
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the worst possible way, yes, Morg
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Morgaine Dinova: I think they do, yes.
[2011/04/12 16:07]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): /me remembers porn made on typewriters.
[2011/04/12 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: I know there is, I’ve been using HTML5 when people were still amazed with XHTML for reasons I’ll never understand 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes… they were called “erotic novels”, Tara 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: indeed hehehe
[2011/04/12 16:08]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me laughs
[2011/04/12 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: It used to take skill to find celestial objects, Morgie. Now you just download the app, point the Iphone at the sky and it uses its motion sensor and GPS to tell you precisely where everything is. So you do not need to think about it.
[2011/04/12 16:08]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): *laughs* Actually, I was thinking the pin-ups made of bunches of different characters to simulate greyscale.
[2011/04/12 16:08]  Luisa Bourgoin: oh, Tara referenced “ascii art”
[2011/04/12 16:08]  Lem Skall: oh, Ivy, I’m impressed
[2011/04/12 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: “now, if your page loads incorrectly, it won’t just show incorrectly, it won’t show at all!”
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yay! Progress!
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: 😀
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Lem Skall: right, GPS making you think less
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: I hate using a computer to find celestial objects. The old star-happing method works better for me.
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Right – so you drive off the pier…
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: hopping, even
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Lem Skall: but then people get lost less
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. In that case, Morg is right: that’s not “making things easier”, that’s making people dumber 😉
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): But when they do get lost, they *REALLY* get lost.
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: what if there are clouds? 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:09]  Luisa Bourgoin: okay, GPS makes moving easier. inside foreign cities. so … devils advocate … did GPS make travel easier?
[2011/04/12 16:10]  Lem Skall: Luisa, yes
[2011/04/12 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: If there are clouds, you aren’t going to see anything anyhow. So what does it matter?
[2011/04/12 16:10]  Morgaine Dinova: It’s the integration in a smartphone that makes us agree that smartphones “extend the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them” — eg. a single press on a key and you have a list of restaurants near your GPS coordinate. One more press and you have their menu. That’s strongly in line with what Whitehead said.
[2011/04/12 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: GPS doesn’t help me to get better plane tickets… but the Internet does 😉
[2011/04/12 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe a hard-learned skill is always more efficient for those well-practiced in it, Zo?
[2011/04/12 16:10]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Park Rangers are now listing cause of death as “Death by GPS” several times a year.
[2011/04/12 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: you might still have star map on ze computer :p
[2011/04/12 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Extie, if I understand that line of argument… the less people think, the more advanced a society?
[2011/04/12 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Tara. That is interesting… haha
[2011/04/12 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I heard of someone whose GPS sent her down this route which was blocked by a gate. She opened the gate and drove through and that is when the train struck her car.
[2011/04/12 16:11]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: No, that was a dreadful non-sequiitur from what Whitehead said.
[2011/04/12 16:11]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): lol
[2011/04/12 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It seemed to be implied in that paragraph — sorry, I didn’t meant it
[2011/04/12 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe the less people need to think?
[2011/04/12 16:12]  Luisa Bourgoin: you make me frightened! … maybe it’s crucial to snatch away any navigation stuff from kids for a week to train their wayfinding skills
[2011/04/12 16:12]  Morgaine Dinova: When you don’t have to think about getting some things done, you don’t stop thinking. You just think about other things. That was one hell of a crappy extension, lol
[2011/04/12 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: the less people think the more stable society, and that seems to actually be the guideline for poeple with power these days
[2011/04/12 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh… ok, I need to be more precise then 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:12]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Might be a good idea – perhaps we should also deprive children of senses as part of the educational process at a young age…
[2011/04/12 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2011/04/12 16:13]  Lem Skall: right, send the kids to survival camp where they have to make fire and hunt for their food
[2011/04/12 16:13]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): That’s not a bad idea. They’ll all become ninjas, to compensate 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: It seems though that the more quickly we can get things done, the more we have to do. This is called increase in productivity. It is also increase in stress.
[2011/04/12 16:13]  Camilla Delvalle: But when one doesn’t really need to think to survive, maybe ones mind goes more dull from just thinking about nonsense?
[2011/04/12 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So let me try again… a more advanced society is one where people don’t need to think about most things they do and can instead think on other, more profound, things instead?
[2011/04/12 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: Morg mentioned it … stopping thinking is a no-no … people drift into the other direction
[2011/04/12 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: true!!!!
[2011/04/12 16:13]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Actually, I was thinking blindfolding, ear muffs – teach them to use sign language, morse code, etc…
[2011/04/12 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would like to hear your comment on Camilla’s argument, Morg
[2011/04/12 16:14]  Luisa Bourgoin: Art, ack!
[2011/04/12 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: that was my earlier point, yes 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because that’s pretty much my own feeling too
[2011/04/12 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: We can walk around with our heads in the clouds. . .
[2011/04/12 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Or in The Cloud, maybe.
[2011/04/12 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry, missed that, Ivy)
[2011/04/12 16:15]  Camilla Delvalle: I don’t think people think less, because thinking is a process that is on most of the time. But when there is no real need to think to survive, one maybe just goes around thinking the same things, repeating oneself?
[2011/04/12 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lots of Sci Fi authors have taken on the topic of future civilizations whose needs are met and what becomes of them. Most conclude that they become intellectual midgets and don’t think at all.
[2011/04/12 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a fallacy in that line of reasoning…. if people don’t have to think about most mundane, everyday tasks, this doesn’t mean that ALL will suddenly start thinking very deep and profound (or creative) thoughts instead.
[2011/04/12 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: no need to be sorry, I guess the way I put it was rather uninteresting 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A few, certainly — the so called intellectual elite — will definitely have more time to think deep thoughts
[2011/04/12 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: And we all know what great insight SciFi authors have into the human condition. . .
[2011/04/12 16:15]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I’m pretty sure that just means someone is either boring or a philosopher, Camilla 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Zo 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Zo has a point, yes 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:16]  Morgaine Dinova: There are lots of examples in technology where advances meet Whitehead’s definition. It’s alleged “advances” outside tech that I don’t really see fitting what he says though.
[2011/04/12 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha.
[2011/04/12 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think Sci Fi authors shouldn’t be written off so easily. Many are great thinkers.
[2011/04/12 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: But we seem to find new needs. Is there a limit to our capacity to dream up new needs? If not, that means our needs can never be completely fulfilled.
[2011/04/12 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What “advances” outside tech would those be ? (sorry, I didn’t read Whitehead)
[2011/04/12 16:16]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Like what, Morgaine?
[2011/04/12 16:16]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: nor I — just from Extie’s topic
[2011/04/12 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who’s “we”, Extie? The common person on the street has few needs. Sleep, eat, have sex, grow a family, drink beer
[2011/04/12 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: Art, I liked Gibson especially after watching him in an interview
[2011/04/12 16:17]  Lem Skall: Iain Banks is also a scifi writer and he must think differently, see The Player of Games
[2011/04/12 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: I never read it either.
[2011/04/12 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: Frank Herbert can hold up to any author in my opinion.
[2011/04/12 16:18]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): /me really really *REALLY* needs to learn Arabic, to find the stuff he missed in the Dune series.
[2011/04/12 16:18]  Luisa Bourgoin: mostly authors are, besides working part time as visionaries, great architects of pothetical environments
[2011/04/12 16:18]  Lem Skall: Tara, translate.google.com
[2011/04/12 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: Most people only read the first Dune book Tara. There are 6 of them.
[2011/04/12 16:18]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): You’re my kind of geeky, Tara 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:18]  Morgaine Dinova: Ataraxia: I don’t know what. But if I were to suggest that the ONLY advances in civilization are technological, I bet a lot of non-techs would object. So the onus is on the non-techs in the audience. You tell *US* what non-tech advances meet Whitehead’s definition.
[2011/04/12 16:18]  Luisa Bourgoin: there is checkmahspeling.google.com ?
[2011/04/12 16:18]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): *GRINS* Lem – it’s a matter of viewpoint, *not* a matter of words.
[2011/04/12 16:18]  Lem Skall: speaking of tools that make you thin less (I mean the google translate)
[2011/04/12 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: My reason for rejecting utopia is the obersvation that every solution creates problems. They problems they create may not be as bad as the ones the solution eliminated, so maybe we can achieve a world with a minimum of problems. But zero? No, not via a technological route at any rate.
[2011/04/12 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: Luisa: just typing stuff in google gives you a corrected version, usually
[2011/04/12 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My only point is simple… yes, I see a huge benefit *for me personally* if I have to think less about most mundane tasks; I’d have far more time to do a lot of things, but, then again, I’m quite aware that I’m a minority ㋡ (and so are we all here at Thinkers!)
[2011/04/12 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that’s a VERY interesting conclusion, Extie :))))
[2011/04/12 16:19]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): I’m well aware of 6 books, plus the Walking Tour included in one of his collections of sorts, plus the Dune Encyclopedia that contradicts most all of his son’s rather poor extensions to the universe.
[2011/04/12 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s not that it always produces problems, at times it just lets some problems we didn’t knew about surface
[2011/04/12 16:20]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): It’s not like we always agree on what the problems even are.
[2011/04/12 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: Let’s actually turn it into a premise for debate, properly.
[2011/04/12 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: In my life, ‘progress’ in the way defined by Whitehead has led me to much less leisure time. And much more stress.
[2011/04/12 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: I MAINTAIN: “There are no social and non-technological advances that meet Whitehead’s criterion as constituting an ‘advance of Civilization'”.
[2011/04/12 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that ius implied, Ivy
[2011/04/12 16:20]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think maybe I could bend it to work for social progress, but I think Whitehead was thinking tech…
[2011/04/12 16:20]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I’d be really curious to know what he did have in mind, if he wasn’t 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: My favourite Google mistranslation is when you translate ‘I could murder a Pint’ into Italian and it reads as ‘I could kill a litre’.
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Lem Skall: Morg, I disagree: iPad ;P
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m silent on that, Morgaine, because I cannot think of any either..,.. not right now
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Camilla Delvalle: Morgaine, some examples of “progress” in civilization that is not about technology would be e.g. organization of society and families.
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): lol Extie
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Morgaine Dinova: Lem: iPad is tech. Fail
[2011/04/12 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: I pad is just a computer Lem
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But does that fit Whitehead’s definitions, Camilla?
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Lem Skall: ooops, misread
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: IPad is not tech, it’s magic, didn’t you watch the commercial?
[2011/04/12 16:21]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe Ivy
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Morgaine Dinova: Camilla: “organization of society and families” does not meet Whitehead’s criterion
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Camilla Delvalle: Morg, one advance could be that one can now travel around without thinking much how not to be killed. E.g. in Europe you can travel around without much problem if you are a citizen in one EU country.
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Magic is just tech that people use without thinking 😉
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Suitably advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic, Ivy.
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Be sure you have your ID papers.
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Lem Skall: wait, what about democracy?
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh. Finally! That’s a fine example, Camilla!
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me would totally buy Apple products if they just put little “Powered by Fairies” stickers on everything…
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: “if you don’t know how something works, it sort of becomes magical”, or something like that
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: 😛
[2011/04/12 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: Magic is by definition something that the viewer does not understand how it came to be.
[2011/04/12 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
[2011/04/12 16:23]  Luisa Bourgoin: travel safety yes-and-no. not people will bear risks, it’s the travel technology. killed by train, car … or GPS
[2011/04/12 16:23]  Morgaine Dinova: Lem: What about democracy? It’s a great example of the OPPOSITE of Whithead’s criterion. It actually ensure that you have to think more in order to get less done.
[2011/04/12 16:23]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Democracy would be wonderful, if we ever really tried it.
[2011/04/12 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, but far far less than, say, in the 1500s, Luisa
[2011/04/12 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Morgaine!!!
[2011/04/12 16:23]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): One government per person, perhaps.
[2011/04/12 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: Tara: we actually have methods to try it *now*
[2011/04/12 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Democracy doesn’t really exist in the real world outside of very small groups of people.
[2011/04/12 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: though
[2011/04/12 16:24]  Lem Skall: democracy is just a continous improvement
[2011/04/12 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: a process, yes 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: even in small groups of people I find democracy still fails
[2011/04/12 16:24]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, I have to be going….take care, everyone 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:24]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Later, Violet!
[2011/04/12 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Ivy — but the alternative is daunting 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Aww stay for six minutes:)
[2011/04/12 16:24]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Have a good ATOD!
[2011/04/12 16:24]  Luisa Bourgoin: indeed! “representative democracy” is all we got
[2011/04/12 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nice to see you again Violet!
[2011/04/12 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Better than any alternative. Just “not good enough”.
[2011/04/12 16:25]  Camilla Delvalle: Zobeid, the advance in travelling has nothing to do with a change of the actual passport. It is a change in how the passport is perceived, what it stands for. The civilization has changed so that it is generally easier to travel, for some people at least, but not for everyone obviously.
[2011/04/12 16:25]  Morgaine Dinova: Indeed TaraLi. We certainly aren’t experiencing Democracy currently, not in the tiniest amount. Our “democracy” consists in 1 day of voting every 5 years, the outcome of which is to change a figurehead that has no control whatsoever. So we have no democracy, we’re serfs in a well disguised tyranny.
[2011/04/12 16:25]  Lem Skall: actually, I think that the essence of democracy is accountability and we have quite a bit of that inspite of what people may say
[2011/04/12 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: We are functionary cogs in the machine of the corporate economy….
[2011/04/12 16:26]  Luisa Bourgoin: way to often these figurehead turn out to be dullheads
[2011/04/12 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: You sound like the unabomber, Art:)
[2011/04/12 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That always remind sme of Lord Vetinari in the Terry Pratchett books, Morg 🙂 “One person, one vote… I’m the one with the vte” 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: democracy, even when implemented correctly, is a tool of exploiting 49% of people by the other 51%
[2011/04/12 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Lem
[2011/04/12 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha ha Extie
[2011/04/12 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Hahahahah Gwyn! I like that.
[2011/04/12 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: Me and ted are just two peas in a pod!
[2011/04/12 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So do I 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ted’s your alt, Art? 😉
[2011/04/12 16:26]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): The lion and the tiger voting to have the lamb for dinner.
[2011/04/12 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: precisely Tara!
[2011/04/12 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: As compared with what?
[2011/04/12 16:27]  Lem Skall: voting is just a form of accountability (by voting people out)
[2011/04/12 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: Thinking of the unabomber makes me giggle
[2011/04/12 16:27]  Morgaine Dinova: There is no accountability, what a joke of a statement. When was the last time the controllers of modern society (the bankers) gave an accounting?
[2011/04/12 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me actually wonders if Kaczynski has access to the Internet and isn’t using SL
[2011/04/12 16:27]  Camilla Delvalle: Anyway, the current political system is better at solving various problems than e.g. absolut monarchy.
[2011/04/12 16:27]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Except we can’t vote someone out without voting someone else – someone approved by the process – in.
[2011/04/12 16:28]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): We can’t vote NOTA.
[2011/04/12 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Did you know that the unabomber bombed his first person at the university I went to?
[2011/04/12 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/04/12 16:28]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): So many of us end up not voting.
[2011/04/12 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: why Kaczynski?
[2011/04/12 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He’d make an excellent speaker at Thinkers 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/screwed.png
[2011/04/12 16:28]  Morgaine Dinova: The “political system” is a system of misdirection, nothing more. It’s there to ensure that you cannot touch your actual masters.
[2011/04/12 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: He probably wouldn’t shut up Gwyn! heh
[2011/04/12 16:28]  Lem Skall: Morg, you are making several unfounded statements in that
[2011/04/12 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lech might, though he is dead (Jim)
[2011/04/12 16:28]  Morgaine Dinova: That’s why it makes no difference who is elected.
[2011/04/12 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: Jaroslaw isn’t as interesting speaker 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: You think from other animals’s perspective we have achieved Utopia? I mean, we have warmth when we want it. Food. Water. Everything we need. Our lives must be perfect! Maybe the posthumans will find it easy to accomodate all human needs so it seems like utopia but they have problems we are too dumb to perceive?
[2011/04/12 16:29]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Could well be, Extropia.
[2011/04/12 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: So this is an interesting question: Who, dead or alive would you like to have come argue with us at Thinkers?
[2011/04/12 16:29]  Lem Skall: posthumans? what is that? ;P
[2011/04/12 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I think that democracy is very clever, because it is based on the assumption (which is quite correct!) that it’s very easy to manipulate voters who have no clue about anything — and these are 90-95% of the population.
[2011/04/12 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Sherry Turkle, Art.
[2011/04/12 16:30]  Camilla Delvalle: Yes the political system is a very advaced and progressed system of misdirection, and it has taken hundreds of years to develop.
[2011/04/12 16:30]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): After all, animals don’t consider whether or not they’re driving themselves to extinction by over-grazing an area.
[2011/04/12 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: Sherry Turkle, not familiar….
[2011/04/12 16:30]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: What’s this obsession with “Utopia”? Not only did it have nothing to do with Whitehead, but now you’re talking about “Utopia from other animal’s perspective”? Come on …. !!!!
[2011/04/12 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2011/04/12 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: Wow, I can hardly believe the levels of cynicism here. . .
[2011/04/12 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:30]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): She told you, Morgaine – she has Moore’s Utopia on her Kindle.
[2011/04/12 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: political systems in democracy really don’t take long to develop, ours has 20+ years now and is already going down the drain
[2011/04/12 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: My level of cynicism is high I must admit, but one can’t help but be cynical in the face of so much corruption.
[2011/04/12 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: She wrote the book on the psychology of online social networks and roleplay in MMOGs. Wrote three of them, actually, Art.
[2011/04/12 16:31]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Zobeid – I don’t have cynicism, I have cyanidecism.
[2011/04/12 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Be glad that you’re aware that there is a lot of corruption; that was what lem was talking about 🙂
[2011/04/12 16:31]  Camilla Delvalle: What I was getting at was that the politcal system is an advance in civilization.
[2011/04/12 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: I will google her
[2011/04/12 16:32]  caiomhin Aeghin: I have a bunch of thngs on my kindle, arstotle and kant were free
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Morgaine Dinova: Zobeid: The only people who aren’t cynical are those who believe the illuision they’ve been handed. Lots of blue pills being handed out.
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Lem Skall: ty Gwyn
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would agree, yes, Camilla
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, prior to democracy you didn’t have political system, more of decapitation system
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me chuckles
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Lem Skall: time?
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Ivy
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: She was arguably a greater influence in my creation than Ray Kurzweil, Art:)
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OH, as Lem reminds me, my time is up!
[2011/04/12 16:32]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Burnout: Attitudes are contagious. Mine might kill you.
[2011/04/12 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Turkle looks interesting, I will have to pursure this….
[2011/04/12 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK…VR AND COLLABORATION…
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