THINKERS APRIL 05 2011: WE HATE CHANGE?

Alexi Flux at Thinkers

2011/04/05 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: OK Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/04/05 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, silly me… I read that as “shall we get startled?” 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:33]  Bunnie Badger: haha
[2011/04/05 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is…
[2011/04/05 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: WE HATE CHANGE? Hamlet Au has said that SL’s community resists and fears change, even if doing so will ultimately cause Sl’s demise. Is this really the attitude of SL’s community? And are there any changes that we should resist and fear?
[2011/04/05 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: Tara: about as much as user-creation level of SL avatar shapes 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:34]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): It’s not so much, I think, fearing change per se, and looking at Linden Lab’s track record…
[2011/04/05 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: So I guess this observation stems from the fact that any change to Sl or introducrion of a new feature gets negative feedback in the forums:)
[2011/04/05 15:35]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Suprisingly on point intro banter
[2011/04/05 15:35]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): s/and/as/
[2011/04/05 15:35]  Alexi Flux: o hate change is a normal standard human behaviour
[2011/04/05 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: from what I can observe in my life so far, people generally are afraid of change
[2011/04/05 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear, Alexi
[2011/04/05 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: unless the situation they are in are completely unbearable
[2011/04/05 15:35]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Plus, there’s a lot of long-standing bugs that people feel need fixing before worrying about introducing new ones with the new features.
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Ivy 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: but should that happen in SL, they will rather change SL for something else
[2011/04/05 15:36]  CeliaDelush: HELLO EVRY1
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me chuckles
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello!
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): After all, who didn’t cheer the raise to 42 groups?
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Bunnie Badger: *:-.,㋡_,.-:*’“’*HIYA  there!!*:-.,㋡_,.-:*’“’*
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Bunnie Badger: Hi Ya Celia
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also think it has little to do with *SL* and more about the issue we have with change in general
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: what do you mean, gwyn?
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: ever changed school?
[2011/04/05 15:36]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): At the same time, it’s been a long time known that larger groups lose notices and such.
[2011/04/05 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: or heck, just graduated from one to another? 😀
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s hard to explain, but we humans have a natural aversion to change.
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Æbleskiver Thibedeau (aebleskiver.thibedeau): All change is loss, even when it’s change for thAll change is loss.
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “natural” in the senmse that the vast majority has that aversion.
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Alexi Flux: Change means insecurity
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Bunnie Badger: we don’t like to be out of our comfort zones
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: aversion to change or a drive for stability 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Æbleskiver Thibedeau (aebleskiver.thibedeau): ooops
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Alexi & Bunnie are saying
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Æbleskiver Thibedeau (aebleskiver.thibedeau): All change is loss, even when the change is for the better.
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We give a lot of value to permanence, stability, security….
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Æbleskiver Thibedeau (aebleskiver.thibedeau): 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: I disagree AE
[2011/04/05 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unfortunately for us, the whole universe is constantly changing every Planck moment 😉
[2011/04/05 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: I have been training my mind to embrace change, I have to, I’m a coder 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Well maybe if we limit this discussion to change in SL rather than the entire history of the cosmos?
[2011/04/05 15:39]  Bunnie Badger: for me, I think gradual change is ok but when dramatic changes occur like with Viewer 2, it can be hard for certain people to adapt
[2011/04/05 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, that’s very good for you, Ivy! 🙂 Accepting change is actually liberating 😉
[2011/04/05 15:39]  Alexi Flux: yes, point of order
[2011/04/05 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: I know we like to expand our horizons here but really..:)
[2011/04/05 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, I don’t think you can separate one thing from the other 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: well then Extie, apparently some people are afraid of mesh coming to SL, as it will put bar higher for content creators and some are just not going to keep up 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless you can show that the universe doesn’t change, while SL is constantly changing; I’m quite well prepared to refute that argument 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: True. When asked about LL’s business strategy Rosedale started talking about the Big Bang.
[2011/04/05 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See? 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:40]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): And then there’s those against mesh because it removes part of what made SL special.
[2011/04/05 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So… give me an environment where there is no change, and I’ll be happy to discuss that instead.
[2011/04/05 15:41]  Alexi Flux: Wait, I am a bit thick, what’s “mesh”
[2011/04/05 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: Tara: bad looking clusterfucks? 5 fps around on mainland? yes, that’s really a loss 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:41]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Mesh is super-charged sculpties.
[2011/04/05 15:41]  Bunnie Badger: what do you mean by super charged?
[2011/04/05 15:41]  Alexi Flux: Gawd
[2011/04/05 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: If there is no clear definition of what SL is, does that make it harder to change anything or not? How much and what can be different and still be ‘SL’?
[2011/04/05 15:41]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Will mesh automatically increase frame-rates?
[2011/04/05 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh grasping for memories of the past… another human tendency 🙂 And no, again, it’s not limited to SL
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Bunnie Badger: ah ok
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: Tara: if you make everything with mesh in your sim – yes
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh now THAT is a good question, Extie! A very good one!
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara: I agree with Ivy, the answer is “yes”.
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): The thing was – Philip’s original selling point with SL was that you created things *IN* the viewer…
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Assuming a good designer/modeller is doing the work, and know what they’re doing 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Then sculpties changed that…
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: I would say that one thing that cannot change is this: Anyone can be a content provider.
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:42]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Now, meshes push that even further.
[2011/04/05 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure — chattoing is content too 😉
[2011/04/05 15:43]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): In the past, computing and response was faster…….difference was that the issues taken on were less complex
[2011/04/05 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara: actually, I would say that doing meshes is *easier* than sculpties!
[2011/04/05 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: Tara: you still had to make textures in 3rd party to begin with
[2011/04/05 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you can do meshes easily in SketchUp; sculpties is another story!
[2011/04/05 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: /me quotes: “”We must bear in mind, then, that there is nothing more difficult and dangerous, or more doubtful of success, than an attempt to introduce a new order of things in any state. For the innovator has for enemies all those who derived advantages from the old order of things, whilst those who expect to be benefited by the new institutions will be but lukewarm defenders. This indifference arises in part from fear of their adversaries who were favoured by the existing laws, and partly from the incredulity of men who have no faith in anything new that is not the result of well-established experience.”
[2011/04/05 15:43]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): You’ll never be able to change your meshes – once you buy them, you’re screwed, other than to scale them perhaps, or change one texturing for another pre-made for *that* mesh.
[2011/04/05 15:43]  Alexi Flux: what do you need it for and what does it do?
[2011/04/05 15:43]  Alexi Flux: mesh that is
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Alexi Flux: benefits?
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can’t do that for sculpties, either, Tara, but yes, you’re right
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): There will be no need for a no-mod permission any more. Meshes will be no-mod inately.
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: Alexi: boots that BEND, need to say more?
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Tara 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Ivy 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: No I do not mean ‘anyone is able to do it’. I mean…you know…anyone can have a go. Um…there is not some kind of selection process that people have to pass before they are allowed to even try.
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): *nods* There was, when sculpties first came out, a promise that an in-world editor for sculpties would be done.
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Alexi Flux: Well more realism then?
[2011/04/05 15:44]  Luisa Bourgoin: the texture changeability of mesh will exceed that of sculpts
[2011/04/05 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: I look forward to mesh.
[2011/04/05 15:45]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): I do 100% agree with that quote, Zo
[2011/04/05 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: But. . .
[2011/04/05 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: (that was Machiavelli, by the way!)
[2011/04/05 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: the inability to change UV map on sculpties is just *shrugs*
[2011/04/05 15:45]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): I do not agree that it defines all that can be
[2011/04/05 15:45]  Luisa Bourgoin: I agree with mesh beeing 2nd generation, regarding all of sculpt intruduction experiences reconsidered
[2011/04/05 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Anth:)
[2011/04/05 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: I’d really like to see fewer crashes and lockups, and an inventory window that I don’t have to fight all the time.
[2011/04/05 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: so say we all, Zoe
[2011/04/05 15:46]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): /me changes the textures on his sculpties all the time.
[2011/04/05 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: oh Zob, it’s not necessarily just the window … on smaller item count, you would do better
[2011/04/05 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s the window.
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Luisa Bourgoin: for sorting, I need two of these windows
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: The user interface is something from Hell. (Or maybe, from Microsoft. Which is about the same.)
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Hahaha Zoe
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Luisa Bourgoin: to fear change, you would have to reach a *perfect* position
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nostalgia. Nostalgia 🙂 We all have this crazy thing built-in that the Good Old Times will never come back and so forth
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW anyone tried the new basic viewer?
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me would like total/midnight commander alike inventory window
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa, I would say, if you are at a “perfect” position, it’s because you don’t fear change 😉
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes! Commander style!
[2011/04/05 15:47]  Luisa Bourgoin: such a perfect one that every move would increase the distance to optimum
[2011/04/05 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Which one, LL’s or Triopodean’s? ;:) )
[2011/04/05 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: LL
[2011/04/05 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh ok, Luisa. That would be interesting to achieve 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:48]  Luisa Bourgoin: Extropia, they made a viewer in Basic again ?!
[2011/04/05 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I did, Extie. It was… interesting
[2011/04/05 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I remember once we did a discussion about upcoming voice. It was really heated. I would guess the proposed changes that raise most controversy are those that impact on identity and the ability (or not) of hiding it?
[2011/04/05 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. That reminds me of the RedZone drama.
[2011/04/05 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Tell!
[2011/04/05 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh, old news I guess?
[2011/04/05 15:50]  Luisa Bourgoin: RedZone offered nothing. Voice enables couples to connect more. emotionally
[2011/04/05 15:50]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Easy enough to have two inventory windows…
[2011/04/05 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: (Yes they have changed the basic viewer again)
[2011/04/05 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just mentioned it in relation of perceioved lack of privacy….
[2011/04/05 15:50]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): At least, in the v1.x viewers.
[2011/04/05 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: how about discussion about display names?
[2011/04/05 15:50]  Luisa Bourgoin: I understood “Basic” as “Cobol” or similars…
[2011/04/05 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok
[2011/04/05 15:50]  Elizabeth Spieler: my new viewer update for the mac is crap I can not change my profile now
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Elizabeth Spieler: I can’t see my picks either
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): You’re supposed to go to the website, Elizabeth, to change your profile.
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Elizabeth Spieler: they are working on a fix
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, I would agree that things related to: privacy; security; identity; means of (financial) support will make more residents more reluctant to adopt change.
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Yet another thing removed from the viewer.
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Elizabeth Spieler: omg Tara really?
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I think you can change it inworld.
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Yep.
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Elizabeth Spieler: falls over laughing thank you
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Luisa Bourgoin: subject closed, issue fixed 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): I don’t know, Extropia – I think that’s listed as “to be done”
[2011/04/05 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: you should be able to change it in viewer, that is, the viewer opens the website for you 😀
[2011/04/05 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On SL 2.6, you can’t, you have to use the Web
[2011/04/05 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[2011/04/05 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, like Ivy said 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: the amazing web profiles, now taking 200% more of your precious screen!
[2011/04/05 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo I got 67% on profile completness. How long before I LEVEL UP?
[2011/04/05 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha Extie
[2011/04/05 15:52]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): /me shakes his head.
[2011/04/05 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL !
[2011/04/05 15:53]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): That may be the root of things – everyone compares SL to games – even talks of it as a game.
[2011/04/05 15:53]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): “What do I do?”
[2011/04/05 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s not a game? :O
[2011/04/05 15:53]  Luisa Bourgoin: let’s play Greedy!
[2011/04/05 15:53]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): You don’t get in a car and say “Ok, now where do I go?”
[2011/04/05 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Officially, we don’t even know 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: You do. You ask the satnav!
[2011/04/05 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh *nice* analogy, Tara!
[2011/04/05 15:54]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): You ask the SatNav how to get there…
[2011/04/05 15:54]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): But you have the destination in mind.
[2011/04/05 15:54]  Luisa Bourgoin: car examples rule. everybody can understand them
[2011/04/05 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: But a game has structure. YOu know what you can change without breaking it. SL has no clearly defined purpose. So how can we direct change to make it better? Better for who, given that we all want different things from it? Apart from lag, which we all despise.
[2011/04/05 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me ask the opposite question…. what if LL announced that SL would not change one single bit of code in the next 5 years? Would people be happy with that? 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:55]  Luisa Bourgoin: we actually even know *how* to break it
[2011/04/05 15:56]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Not really – because that would leave long-standing bugs sitting even longer.
[2011/04/05 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly 🙂 And make everything in SL obsolete
[2011/04/05 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, IMVU avatars look almost as good as Sl ones 😉 hehe
[2011/04/05 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: that’s pretty much what happened with web browsers after the first browser war
[2011/04/05 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Obsolete compared to what? OpenSim? :/
[2011/04/05 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: *cough* IE6 *cough*
[2011/04/05 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Can it be broken? Not in the sense that it crashes but in the sense that people think ‘oh this is no longer SL!’ and never come back?
[2011/04/05 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent comparison, Ivy 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To everything, Zobeid 😛
[2011/04/05 15:57]  Luisa Bourgoin: IE6 proofes that “from hell” argument above
[2011/04/05 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: do I really need to link that Eve video again to show how much SL is obsolete? 🙂
[2011/04/05 15:57]  Luisa Bourgoin: naw never obsolete … “redundant” one day, may be
[2011/04/05 15:57]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Oy, vey……..forgot the syphon was on the koi tank……..they were on the very bottom…….just got to them in time
[2011/04/05 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Extie, but that’s asking the wrong question — the SL experience is personal, a lot of emotional attachment, etc. This experience is different from person to person, so a “radical” change that would make EVERYBODY leave is very unlikely — as there would be a lot of people that would create different emotional bondings to the new, dramatic change
[2011/04/05 15:58]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Sorry, where were we
[2011/04/05 15:58]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): ?
[2011/04/05 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: If being a griefer means behaving contrary to the norms of society, are griefers in EVE Online polite, helpful and full of comunity spirit? *Giggles*
[2011/04/05 15:59]  Luisa Bourgoin: *pun*
[2011/04/05 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: Eve society is build on griefers, jerks and assholes 😀
[2011/04/05 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: and it works!
[2011/04/05 15:59]  Luisa Bourgoin: do not let us detain you…
[2011/04/05 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: How much influence does the moaning and complaining on forums affect the staff at LL? Notr a jot? A lot?
[2011/04/05 15:59]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Are the a..holes in nicely shaped containers?
[2011/04/05 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: actually yes Arch, in capsules like everybody else 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:00]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): kewl, I want mine like oxycoting
[2011/04/05 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I’m convinced with that video, Ivy 😉 )
[2011/04/05 16:01]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): or zoloft
[2011/04/05 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: not a jot.
[2011/04/05 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Could Sl be perfect for everyone? Like, viewers tailor-made for all tastes, sims catering for all, and each person just sticks to the parts of SL that supply what they want?
[2011/04/05 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For every complainer about X, there is another one loving X 🙂 So what should LL do? Their answer is mostly not doing anything, or toss a coin 😉
[2011/04/05 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2011/04/05 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No!
[2011/04/05 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, everyone can train themselves to accept SL to be perfect for them ;)(
[2011/04/05 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s like hating blue, then getting a blue car for birthday!
[2011/04/05 16:02]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Or train SL to be close enuf
[2011/04/05 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: (yay for car analogy again)
[2011/04/05 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is actually a fundamental rule of human interaction: you cannot please everybody, it’s impossible 🙂 You shouldn’t even attempt it.
[2011/04/05 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Can we actually resist change? Or can the Lindens change whatever they please and we just have to put up with it?
[2011/04/05 16:03]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Ricky Nelson, “Can’t please everyone”
[2011/04/05 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. It was easier toir esist change when SL was smaller.
[2011/04/05 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *to resist
[2011/04/05 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. “threats” would work better
[2011/04/05 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: When there were 5000 users and 2000 complained…. they had a voice
[2011/04/05 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: With 20 million users, 19 million of which not even bothering to log in, the same 2000 are just a tiny drop in the ocean
[2011/04/05 16:04]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Humm,, how would Gweyneth treaten me?
[2011/04/05 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: again, I’ve seen a lot of drama when display names where announced, from people I know here as well. Then display names went live, and there were either good comments or no comments at all about it 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you were a LL employee, Arch, and I owned 5% of the SL landmass, I could threaten to reduce your annually income by 5% 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: turns out SL is not full of poeple wanting to steal your indentity!
[2011/04/05 16:04]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Ah, that assumes I fear that
[2011/04/05 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: One problem I have with display names is I am not quite sure which name somebody prefers to be addressed by.
[2011/04/05 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No: it turns out that stolen identioty is not openly reported 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:05]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Without fear, there is no power
[2011/04/05 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arch: you certainly don’t; but LL does. To a degree.
[2011/04/05 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I agree hehe
[2011/04/05 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: I have “old names” disabled completely
[2011/04/05 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fearlessness means immunity to agression 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: only look at user name in profile if I need to
[2011/04/05 16:06]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): A lot of people feel that once it goes live – there’s no reason to even try to change things.
[2011/04/05 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I certainly feel that way; flogging a dead horse etc
[2011/04/05 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: or they just adapt? 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Voice, display names… they’re not going away. Ever.
[2011/04/05 16:06]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Of course, a lot of people feel that as soon as LL announces it, there’s no reason to say anything – even if they *ASK* for opinions.
[2011/04/05 16:06]  Luisa Bourgoin: natural tendency seems to be: not complaining
[2011/04/05 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL 2.X is not going away either 😉
[2011/04/05 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: still, you don’t have to use voice
[2011/04/05 16:07]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): They adapt, we move on…….I think that is the current game
[2011/04/05 16:07]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): But hope springs eternal for SL 3.x
[2011/04/05 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: you don’t have to use display names
[2011/04/05 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shrugs* I stick to the “silent SL”, which is big enough for me.
[2011/04/05 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: IT might. IT might evolve so far that it is no longer recognisable as the viewer we know today. One hopes!
[2011/04/05 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: you will kind of have to use SL 2.X based viewer eventually though, but hopefully after Firestorm goes gold 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, tara, the issue about display names was not about using it or not; it was about how easy it is to steal identities.
[2011/04/05 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: had someone here got their identity stolen?
[2011/04/05 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me shares Extie’s hope
[2011/04/05 16:08]  Luisa Bourgoin: Gwyn, coders get paid for implementing some silly new stuff. they can never take that silly stuff out of the code, ever. that would disguise their archivements
[2011/04/05 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: except fro Gwyn who stole her own identity
[2011/04/05 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: for*
[2011/04/05 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Well so long as the impersonator does a good enough job of being me, and you think it is me, it IS. I think.
[2011/04/05 16:08]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): with one who clamed a 400 IQ
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): I enjoyed his ruse
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: This reminds me of something I heard about programming once. . .
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe good argument, Luisa 🙂 That’s why there is still the rating code inside SL (just inactive), as well as LindenAnimals, SpeedTree…. all developed and inactive
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: I have taken code out of my stuff in past
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: tell that to merchants 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: “Programming is like sex. If you make a mistake you have to support it for 20 years.”
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: like
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL Zo!!!!
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahahahah
[2011/04/05 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha 😀
[2011/04/05 16:10]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Seeds of long dormant plants sprout and repopulate
[2011/04/05 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: as Doug Crockford said regarding HTML5 – it’s never too late to do the right thing (he doesn’t think HTML5 is the right thing btw :))
[2011/04/05 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL certainly has made a lot of sex mistakes in SL… 😉
[2011/04/05 16:11]  Elizabeth Spieler: good meeting thanks have a nice day
[2011/04/05 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes
[2011/04/05 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Take care, Elizabeth! ㋡
[2011/04/05 16:11]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): If you could see changing that quote from “the right thing” to “a different thing” I would agree Ivy
[2011/04/05 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I would like to see them resurrect Ondrejka’s idea of changing the landscape by lobbing grenades at it. Just to see residents’ reaction;)
[2011/04/05 16:12]  Luisa Bourgoin: so we started on “change” ending up on embracing&supporting mistakes
[2011/04/05 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: That was mad genius, that was:)
[2011/04/05 16:12]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Or at least mad
[2011/04/05 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh you can do that still with some clever LSL….. I think I have one of those granades somewhere
[2011/04/05 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: You anarchist, you.
[2011/04/05 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *chuckles*
[2011/04/05 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: err …. you can use LSL to shape land … you could invent that grenate-tossable-landscaping-tool
[2011/04/05 16:13]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): /me thinks it has been done already.
[2011/04/05 16:13]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Only if Ari will lob a grenade first
[2011/04/05 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Luisa…. 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:13]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): then I will follow
[2011/04/05 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me searches in inventory
[2011/04/05 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Do we fear change or is it more like complaining that LL puts its energies into the wrong things? You know, why work on that when this is the problem?
[2011/04/05 16:14]  Luisa Bourgoin: “landflattener2000-XXL”
[2011/04/05 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I, for one, want MORE changes in SL 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, nothing less than daily changes will make me happy 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: so long as they suit you? OR are you not bothered either way?
[2011/04/05 16:14]  Luisa Bourgoin: at least everybody wants one change. I never met any resident who was wishless happy
[2011/04/05 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Hooray for hope and change!
[2011/04/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not bothered at all, *except* with passivity from LL’s side 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:15]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): I’ll look for a 30 day vibrator, G……..new heads for every day
[2011/04/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa, such persons are way too rare.
[2011/04/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arch, Arch…
[2011/04/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shakes head*
[2011/04/05 16:15]  Luisa Bourgoin: *meeet* Archmage stepped over the line
[2011/04/05 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah
[2011/04/05 16:16]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): *snickers* still pulling pigtails after all these years
[2011/04/05 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: the “putting energies into wrong things” is a more complex problem. People might complain about LL doing the marketplace f.e. instead of fixing some stuff within SL itself, while clearly people doing Marketplace – webdevs that is – would have a rather hard time doing anything with the viewer or sim code (I can be wrong though and LL might employ some brilliant universal coders)
[2011/04/05 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, one thing I miss is the crazy days of late 2005, when LL would release a new version of SL every week, and we would never know if this would be the one breaking everything forever…. it was fun. We sort of enjoyed SL for 6 days at a time, never knowing what would come next!
[2011/04/05 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: I remember Sl crashed a lot more often back then too.
[2011/04/05 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: live as if your world were to end next week Gwyn? 😀
[2011/04/05 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
[2011/04/05 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Ivy, you’re 100% correct in fact. LL cannot putb “all developers fixing bugs” because only very few — 6, 7 at most — who know how to fix them.
[2011/04/05 16:18]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Yess, Missy Ivy
[2011/04/05 16:18]  Luisa Bourgoin: dunno … got that “living on the edge” feeling two weeks ago, watching the news. thought RL would end
[2011/04/05 16:18]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): One ring to rule them
[2011/04/05 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: why, Luisa?
[2011/04/05 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh it’s only begining, just wait till US collapse 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:19]  Luisa Bourgoin: looks like world lost the reliability in it’s energy supply
[2011/04/05 16:19]  Luisa Bourgoin: we need change regarding the way we produce electricity
[2011/04/05 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Watch that meteor later in 2012… 😉
[2011/04/05 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: it’s not going to be meteor, it’s official now, IPv4 adresses will be what will end the world in 2012
[2011/04/05 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: OK ten minutes left so…let us talk about changes we would like to see. My vote is the right to give away one’s account (or sell it) to somebody else. What do you all want to see?
[2011/04/05 16:20]  Luisa Bourgoin: naw we can sharre IP4s
[2011/04/05 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh goodie, Ivy! I was always hoping that geeks would end the world 😉
[2011/04/05 16:21]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): In-world sculpty/mesh editor.
[2011/04/05 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay for that, Tara!
[2011/04/05 16:21]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Recording in-world sounds from the voice channel.
[2011/04/05 16:21]  Luisa Bourgoin: I would like to see better transferability of inventory items. for creators, sharing stuff between builder accounts
[2011/04/05 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. You can do that with external tools, so, no 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: I would love, something that would allow me to actually script stuff in SL. Like LSL, just *not sucking*
[2011/04/05 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: An inventory window that works like a directory utility.
[2011/04/05 16:22]  Luisa Bourgoin: can I have a second wish?
[2011/04/05 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh and what Ivy said would be good too. . .
[2011/04/05 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d like a detachable viewport, and inventory being actually inventory on your filesystem 😛 Soooo easy to do
[2011/04/05 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: I bet scripting objects so that they suck is a major part of your working day, Ivy;)
[2011/04/05 16:22]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): /me finds scripting stuff in SL rather easy. Much like legos.
[2011/04/05 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Plus, could Linden Labs please do away with “permission flags” and make everything mod-copy-trans? Thanks! 😀
[2011/04/05 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha Extie 😀
[2011/04/05 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Yay, Zobeid!
[2011/04/05 16:23]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): /me points Zobeid at the OpenSim grids.
[2011/04/05 16:23]  Luisa Bourgoin: anarchist!
[2011/04/05 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Um? I’ve been there. Everything wasn’t mod-copy-trans. 😦
[2011/04/05 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, what purpose would that serve, Zo? 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh wait…. you should have added: “and m,ake sims for free”
[2011/04/05 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then I would understand!
[2011/04/05 16:24]  Luisa Bourgoin: the freebie culture of SL originated from wealth … people in a mood to give away stuff
[2011/04/05 16:24]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): They are if the sim owners want them to be.
[2011/04/05 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: I would like to see everything modifiable. It would be nice to be able to alter clothes I bought myself.
[2011/04/05 16:25]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): *nods*
[2011/04/05 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: let’s start a zeitgeist movement in SL!
[2011/04/05 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: prims for everybody!
[2011/04/05 16:25]  Luisa Bourgoin: Ivy, that translates how?
[2011/04/05 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Well…clothes I bugged my sister into buying for me I should say.
[2011/04/05 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And let LL beg on the streets for free bandwidth and servers! Hooray!
[2011/04/05 16:25]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): The inventory links in Viewer 2.x are a good thing.
[2011/04/05 16:25]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): The Zeroth Law….. I have often felt that hyperresistance in the positronic pathways makes itself first felt in the matter of standing and walking, and next in speech.”
[2011/04/05 16:26]  Arch (archmage.atlantis): Blessings and Namaste 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The *only* reason why so many things are not modifiable is because that allows them to be easily copied/cloned/stolen….
[2011/04/05 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Hmmm…I suppose I should concede I am not likely to improve on the original design with my fiddling:)
[2011/04/05 16:27]  Alexi Flux: Unfortunately hings that are free are often rubbish
[2011/04/05 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I’d be happy with a change ion the poermission system, yes
[2011/04/05 16:27]  Luisa Bourgoin: I would like to suggest a toppic for next weeks: collaboration inside VRs. but I still lack a catchy summary for announcement
[2011/04/05 16:27]  Alexi Flux: I am a great believer in you only get what you pay for
[2011/04/05 16:28]  Alexi Flux: Unfortunately I have no money
[2011/04/05 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Alexi 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol
[2011/04/05 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: It really irks me when they prevent me from making simple modifications so that the *store* can sell me more items with simple modifications.
[2011/04/05 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree to an extent, Zo
[2011/04/05 16:28]  Alexi Flux: Now this dress I have, I can change colour
[2011/04/05 16:28]  Alexi Flux: At least you should do that
[2011/04/05 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the distant past, items were almost all modifiable and/or transferrable; just not copy-able. You would be able to change it, improve it, and resell it, like one does with items every day iRL
[2011/04/05 16:29]  Luisa Bourgoin: indeed Zob, a good shops could offer custom modifications
[2011/04/05 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: truth hair comes in moddable, and it’s pretty much state of the art in SL terms
[2011/04/05 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The problem, well, was that the many bugs in the permission system made content creators wary
[2011/04/05 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: About collaboration, the topic could be ‘is there anything we cannot do together in VR? And could it be possible in the future with the right technological development?
[2011/04/05 16:29]  Luisa Bourgoin: copybot killed modify perms
[2011/04/05 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Luisa 😦
[2011/04/05 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sadly so 😦
[2011/04/05 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (good topic, Extie 🙂 )
[2011/04/05 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: lagless games?
[2011/04/05 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh.
[2011/04/05 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is almost up so let us have some closing comments: Is Hamlet right to say residents’ resistence to change will destroy SL?
[2011/04/05 16:30]  Luisa Bourgoin: and brought us resizer scripts. btw I tried doing resizer acting different into xyz directions, at least started drafting on paper. It seems to be: IMPOSSIBLE
[2011/04/05 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: SL is, in theory, a perfect platform to make multiplayer games
[2011/04/05 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: in reality though, it just lags too much 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: some shooting works and that’s it 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course not, Extie; he was just overreacting,. It’s like saying that change in the real world will destroy the world 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Well not quite Gwyn.
[2011/04/05 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: I would also like to see some more control on the sim side of things, assuming you own a sim
[2011/04/05 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’ll get extinct one day, too 😉
[2011/04/05 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: like turning *off* avatar collision for greater performance
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: changing gravity
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: All humans could leave the planet or die but the world would still exist. If we all quit SL, pretty soon it would not exist.
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh that would be interesting, Ivy… hmm
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: or being able to change running speed of an avatar
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In that sense, yes, Extie 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey…if nobody logs into SL…DOES IT EXIST?
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: residents will never destroy SL. they *love* it. err LL could do it … sometime I believe they hate SL
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: well that was easily answered.
[2011/04/05 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL is just digital collective hallucination; you need residents for it to “exist”.
[2011/04/05 16:33]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): It only exists as a virtual virtual world, kinda like virtual particles.
[2011/04/05 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
[2011/04/05 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve pretty much the same view 🙂
[2011/04/05 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: WHITEHEAD’S UTOPIA…
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