Thinkers March 29 2011: Knowing The Truth.

Violette Mcminnar and Frederick Hansome at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: OK shall we get things started?
[2011/03/29 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/03/29 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes please do
[2011/03/29 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: I refuse to be anorexic or 8 feet tall in sl! ha ha
[2011/03/29 15:32]  Catlynn Valencia: Ironically we always said when we ascended we would be able to controle the very image with only a thought as our bodies would be made of light.
[2011/03/29 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: my avatar i smade of verticles, faces and textures, not light 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic under discussion is….KNOWING THE TRUTH..
[2011/03/29 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Sometimes, something has the ring of truth about it. And sometimes, something seems false. How do we know what is true, though? When a person says ‘I believe X to be true (or false)’ what is responsible for determining this belief?
[2011/03/29 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: In short…why do people believe what they believe?
[2011/03/29 15:33]  Catlynn Valencia: In most cases they believe what some one they think they can trust tells them.
[2011/03/29 15:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: actually we don’t always *know* …. more often, it’s just faithfull wishing
[2011/03/29 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: do I need to link the good book song video for 721564th time? 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: From my point of view all ‘truth’ is provisional and subject to being overturned using rational examination.
[2011/03/29 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: for example …..
[2011/03/29 15:34]  Lem Skall: I believe it if it’s on the internet or on tv
[2011/03/29 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha Lem
[2011/03/29 15:34]  Luisa Bourgoin: truth varies over time of observation
[2011/03/29 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello June
[2011/03/29 15:34]  June Clavenham: hello
[2011/03/29 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: my truth is truthier than your truth!
[2011/03/29 15:34]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): I agree with Art Crash. ‘Belief’ is a word I would just like to do without altogether.
[2011/03/29 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello:)
[2011/03/29 15:35]  Catlynn Valencia: Some feel there really is no truth or faulsehood to life only perspectives of reality which often have very little to do with actuality.
[2011/03/29 15:35]  Lem Skall: well, what is scientific truth if it’s a theory that turns out to be false? But was it ever a lie?
[2011/03/29 15:35]  Luisa Bourgoin: I believe we need believement
[2011/03/29 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: BUt is that possible, Cuipdon? Is not some measure of belief unavoidable?
[2011/03/29 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Cupidon, Belief not subject to examination and skepticism is NOT a recipe for knowledge of any kind.
[2011/03/29 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: I *believe* earth rotates around the sun
[2011/03/29 15:35]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): What’s wrong with statistics & probablities? & I do mean that at an every day functioning level.
[2011/03/29 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: I never was in space to actually witness is
[2011/03/29 15:35]  Luisa Bourgoin: believ seems crucial where certainity varies
[2011/03/29 15:36]  Lem Skall: wait, are we talking about TRUTH or BELIEF?
[2011/03/29 15:36]  Catlynn Valencia: We all analize our surroundingds and situations and comprehend as much as we can and call what we see the truth, though it’s really only as true as it can be percieved.
[2011/03/29 15:36]  Luisa Bourgoin: naw not rotating … more tumbling
[2011/03/29 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: We are talking about the invididual’s worldview, Lem. Not the ontological truth.
[2011/03/29 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: Cat: assuming our senses aren’t lying to us 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:36]  Lem Skall: so belief
[2011/03/29 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah.
[2011/03/29 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: truth is, in best case, conditional
[2011/03/29 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: But not necessarily Belief as in the religious kind.
[2011/03/29 15:37]  Luisa Bourgoin: truth vs. believ vs. holy smoke
[2011/03/29 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: if x then y is true
[2011/03/29 15:37]  Catlynn Valencia: And opposites can still be true for example a man stands 5’11” tall, a man standing 6’5″ tall would call him short but a 5′ woman would call him tall they are both true despite being completely opposed because both truths are based on accurate perspectives.
[2011/03/29 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: We don’t have to accept anything. We only need to have evidence for it.
[2011/03/29 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: There is faith that works and there is faith that doesn’t, Most faith that works tends to be true, but not all.
[2011/03/29 15:37]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Um, skepticism IS, exactly the recipe for scientific knowledge …
[2011/03/29 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that a kind of relativity, Catlynn?
[2011/03/29 15:37]  Frederick Hansome: We all hold many, many basic beliefs in our subconscious mind. Whether they are “true” or not is another matter.
[2011/03/29 15:38]  Luisa Bourgoin: Catlyn made a point … relativity of truth
[2011/03/29 15:38]  Lem Skall: see my profile then: “Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover will prove.” Orr’s law (Robert Anton Wilson, Prometheus Rising)
[2011/03/29 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: We live in a world where everything is so confusing that people enter a cramped clenched faith based state, ad this is pretty disastrous >>>
[2011/03/29 15:38]  Luisa Bourgoin: relative onto point of observer, and time of observation
[2011/03/29 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: I find it intruiging that others can strongly believe in something that I find to be absurd. And it makes me wonder if their system of truth-finding is flawed or if mine is.
[2011/03/29 15:38]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Ah, FAITH is the 3rd word. TRUTH, BELIEF, FAITH.
[2011/03/29 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: Faith by definition is acceptance of something without evidence. But we use the term faith in everyday usage to mean “if I examined this I could find evidence for it”, but I don’t have the time.
[2011/03/29 15:38]  Catlynn Valencia: If not the observers then who makes the truth?
[2011/03/29 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: faith is denial of observation 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: You could say it is an article of faith to say you have a brain, since none of you have taken the top of your skull of and checked, I am guessing;)
[2011/03/29 15:40]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): How is faith different than belief? What is belief?
[2011/03/29 15:40]  Luisa Bourgoin: making truth just reminds me on … “writing history”
[2011/03/29 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Catlynn, no one person makes the truth, because the concept of truth is always provisional. The way science uses truth is to put forward things that have lots of evidence for them.
[2011/03/29 15:40]  Lem Skall: but are we talking about what is commonly considered as opinion, like what is beautiful, or are we talking of what is considered to be fact, like “god exists”
[2011/03/29 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: belief is subjective best bet of what the truth is
[2011/03/29 15:40]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Faith may not be a denial of observation, it may be the accurate observation of the limit of knowledge.
[2011/03/29 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: faith is blindly accepting something as truth without proof
[2011/03/29 15:41]  Catlynn Valencia: Or without proof one can express accurately to others.
[2011/03/29 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: or against proof 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:41]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Should I stay, or should I go? Is there another step there, in the dark?
[2011/03/29 15:41]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Will my significant other support me?
[2011/03/29 15:41]  Frederick Hansome: Beliefs, Cup, can be based on evidence or on faith
[2011/03/29 15:41]  Lem Skall: nvm faith, some people really believe that god exists and consider everything around them as proof
[2011/03/29 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Art, what about math theorems? It is my understanding that they are proven with more rigour than science theories, and once proven true there is no room for doubt.
[2011/03/29 15:42]  Luisa Bourgoin: Lem, recently I have percieved surrounding events as negative proof for that!
[2011/03/29 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Well..maybe you could doubt the axioms on which the theorem rests, but they are usually so logical it would be absurd to do so.
[2011/03/29 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: if god exists, he is one sadistic motherfucker I tell you
[2011/03/29 15:42]  Frederick Hansome: Math is perhaps the only “truth” that is unassailble. Everything else has a question mark after it.
[2011/03/29 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie: I would say with math, that it contains truths by its own definitions of starting points. Insofar as the math fits the real world, we can infer that any particular math is true. But math is still provisional as it is based on original definitions.
[2011/03/29 15:42]  Catlynn Valencia: But even with science and even the fundementals of math one there is always room for human error and two it’s still only proven true under teh circumstances it’s been presented. It might not stand true against other forms of observation or calculation.
[2011/03/29 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: sorry for the latin 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:43]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Math is proven but it is proven because it is tautological.
[2011/03/29 15:43]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): It proves itself.
[2011/03/29 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: Frederick: there is a theory that the universe *is* math
[2011/03/29 15:43]  Lem Skall: can you belief in math if you don’t understand it?
[2011/03/29 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: can you believe in anything if you don’t understand it?
[2011/03/29 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: More succinctly put, Cupidon. However math can match observation and at that point can go outside of its own tautological limits.
[2011/03/29 15:44]  Lem Skall: do you believe in the infinite?
[2011/03/29 15:44]  Frederick Hansome: I don’t “believe” the math is tautological
[2011/03/29 15:44]  Lem Skall: do you believe in irrational numbers?
[2011/03/29 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: I do believe in the infinite stupidity of humanity
[2011/03/29 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: I believe in the infinite Lem.
[2011/03/29 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: does that count?
[2011/03/29 15:45]  Catlynn Valencia: *Chuckles.*
[2011/03/29 15:45]  Frederick Hansome: lol
[2011/03/29 15:45]  Catlynn Valencia: I SO get you there Ivy!
[2011/03/29 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Speaking of the infinite. It isn’t a concept that we can ever understand…. by definition.
[2011/03/29 15:45]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Yes, math had better match observation, or who cares about it. Surely, the basis for math is the difference any chimapnzee is very aware of of the difference between 1 apple and 2 apples.
[2011/03/29 15:45]  Lem Skall: extie, do you UNDERSTAND the infinite? can you observe it?
[2011/03/29 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: If you read this entire book, or listen to the audiobook it is obvious it is correct. >> it is 2000 pages….
[2011/03/29 15:46]  Lem Skall: Khan, I’ll wait for the movie
[2011/03/29 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: there is a lot of stuff you don’t need to be able to observe to understand it
[2011/03/29 15:46]  Catlynn Valencia: *Laughs.*
[2011/03/29 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: the sequel
[2011/03/29 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: No. But I know that no matter how many of the natural numbers I count to, there will always be one more after that, proves the infinite exists.
[2011/03/29 15:46]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Man, even when we are kind of serious, it sounds like a joke, ironic, etc, when we ask, “Do you believe in …?”
[2011/03/29 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: Cupidon, it is possible that an observer unaware of math would not know the difference between one apple and two apples, the concept would just be apple.
[2011/03/29 15:46]  Catlynn Valencia: I agree with Ivy. From personal experiance i understand a lot of things i have not personally observed.
[2011/03/29 15:46]  Lem Skall: do you believe in magic?
[2011/03/29 15:47]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Believe requires understanding no more than action does. Belief, knowledge, counting apples — it is all about choosing actions.
[2011/03/29 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: We divide apple into numbers by understanding math is more what I’m saying.
[2011/03/29 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I think you are right Art. There are anthropological reports of people in various tribes who have quite different concepts of time, space, and number to us.
[2011/03/29 15:47]  Frederick Hansome: No magic for me, but wonder and awe is anopther matter.
[2011/03/29 15:47]  Lem Skall: [ot: anyone noticed something sticking out of Toy’s behind?]
[2011/03/29 15:47]  Luisa Bourgoin: Lem, I thought magic beeing acceptance of the unnatural
[2011/03/29 15:47]  Catlynn Valencia: I believe in magic but i believe it’s more explainable and exponentially more calculable then we currently have the tools to do so with.
[2011/03/29 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes I beliebe in magic. Second Life is Magic.
[2011/03/29 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: you really are slow 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:48]  Lem Skall: /me gags from what Khan said
[2011/03/29 15:48]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): 2 apples fill my belly better than 1.
[2011/03/29 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: That would be a room deodorizer Lem! ha ha
[2011/03/29 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes lilly scented
[2011/03/29 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Cognitive illusions and other psychological mechanisms explain magic. The TV kind, anyway. The magician learns how to direct your focus away from where it should be looking.
[2011/03/29 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: More ‘apple’ doesn’t need to be numbered apple.
[2011/03/29 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: “when you don’t understand how something works, it sort of becomes magical” – original iPad promo video *grins*
[2011/03/29 15:49]  Catlynn Valencia: Khan is right, some one took a concept and with the use of singularly ones and zeros created a world that allows people to do litteraly anythign and freely create without the restrictions of physics. I don’t see how that’s not magic.
[2011/03/29 15:49]  Luisa Bourgoin: in a way this *is* destracting, but not so much the facts …more people expressing their observations. Can’t you just shut up on this toppic ?!
[2011/03/29 15:49]  Lem Skall: I WANT an ipad 2!
[2011/03/29 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes I believe in Magic. Mistress and Toy are Magic.
[2011/03/29 15:49]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): Many or probably most people who have accomplished wonderful things I’ll bet would say they were driven by a keen & unwavering belief in something.
[2011/03/29 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh we definitely are 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:50]  Catlynn Valencia: it may be technologically explainable right now but in time all things that seem like magic will be.
[2011/03/29 15:50]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): A belief in a value …
[2011/03/29 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me puts on wizard hat and robes
[2011/03/29 15:50]  Lem Skall: it always comes back to SL sooner or later here
[2011/03/29 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: The definition of magic is just “something we can’t understand or explain”.
[2011/03/29 15:50]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): … that their efforts are worthwhile …
[2011/03/29 15:50]  Catlynn Valencia: Take auras for example, people throughout history have been able to see or feel them but it was always considered mystical of psychic…
[2011/03/29 15:50]  Lem Skall: so we believe in “something we can’t understand or explain”
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: no, seriously, auras?
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Catlynn Valencia: well listen.
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Lem Skall: yeah, auras?
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Catlynn Valencia: listen.
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller:
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: watch this
[2011/03/29 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: The scary concept that many don’t like about science is that science is comfortable with uncertainty.
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: you’ll never speak about auras 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: My idea is that we all get to see only teeny pieces of the whole of reality. And other people see different pieces or put them together differently. And other pieces fit comfortably into your model and you call them ‘true’ and other bits do not fit and you say that are false. So, roughly, that is why people have different beliefs.
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Catlynn Valencia: technology came up with a way to capture energies on film and make them visible to the nakid eye.
[2011/03/29 15:51]  Catlynn Valencia: ther eis a camera that can take picture of any object and if it has an aura it’s visible.
[2011/03/29 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Kirluean images you mean?
[2011/03/29 15:52]  Lem Skall: sure, my body radiates heat
[2011/03/29 15:52]  Catlynn Valencia: Theyt did an experiment with two coins.
[2011/03/29 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Or however you spell it.
[2011/03/29 15:52]  Catlynn Valencia: They minted them together and took a picture of them with this camera side by side both showing very low auras that were almost identical.
[2011/03/29 15:53]  Luisa Bourgoin: a coin may cast something like an aura. depends upon isotopes inside the material
[2011/03/29 15:53]  Violette McMinnar: saw aura several times ;p
[2011/03/29 15:53]  Lem Skall: the bigger denomination the bigger the aura
[2011/03/29 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: what has this to do with the topic, though?
[2011/03/29 15:53]  Catlynn Valencia: they then released them after marking them and after circulating thoes two coins and getting them back they took another picture to find they both had very differnt and highly more active auras after traveling and being amung human energy.
[2011/03/29 15:53]  Lem Skall: yes, I believe in coins
[2011/03/29 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: hahaha
[2011/03/29 15:54]  Catlynn Valencia: That’s one of the compunts of metal that makes it so valuable aside what we can make it litterally collect energy.
[2011/03/29 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: People have different beliefs because they are comforted by having things always be explainable. And that level of comfort makes them unwilling to question. So they remain static with a belief that others know to be false. This is so common in human history that we have many groups certain of their ‘truth’ in conflict with each other’s ‘truth’.
[2011/03/29 15:54]  ULTIMATE ZOOBY TAN PUG 9.0: Friends ON has been set, so my new Friend can play with me 🙂
[2011/03/29 15:54]  ULTIMATE ZOOBY TAN PUG 9.0: whispers: Please type the new Friend’s AV name in chat
[2011/03/29 15:54]  ULTIMATE ZOOBY TAN PUG 9.0: whispers: Sorry, your session has timed out. Please try again.
[2011/03/29 15:54]  Lem Skall: down, boy, down
[2011/03/29 15:55]  Lem Skall: oh, Art, associating belief with comfort, I don’t believe in that
[2011/03/29 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Art, how do you deal with confirmation bias?
[2011/03/29 15:55]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): I would associate belief with ego identity.
[2011/03/29 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t believe in Lem’s believing! ha ha
[2011/03/29 15:56]  Catlynn Valencia: That’s what makes it Lens and not Art’s/
[2011/03/29 15:56]  Catlynn Valencia: *Chuckles.*
[2011/03/29 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
[2011/03/29 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie: confirmation bias exists, but whatever is concluded is always subject to more scrutingy. So it can’t last forever…..
[2011/03/29 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: thank you Wikipedia!
[2011/03/29 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: I find I feel more comforted when I encounter info or evidence that supports what I believe, rather than that which refutes it. So I am not really my own best judge at determining the truth.
[2011/03/29 15:57]  Lem Skall: ah, see Extie? that’s what my quote was about
[2011/03/29 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: How many here have stopped believing in something they once held to be true, on the basis of contary evidence?
[2011/03/29 15:58]  Lem Skall: I stopped believeing in communism once
[2011/03/29 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: like santa claus?
[2011/03/29 15:58]  Luisa Bourgoin: probably everybody does
[2011/03/29 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: If I may be so bold I will say that “nothing is true” , and that everything is provisional in our understanding. But this doesn’t allow one to not act. As we proceed ‘as if’ what we know is ‘true’.
[2011/03/29 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: 😮 toy crashed
[2011/03/29 15:59]  Luisa Bourgoin: no truth at all … more about working hypothesis
[2011/03/29 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Truth is what works
[2011/03/29 15:59]  Gorloth: whispers: Please wait while I looks up your friend’s avatar name…
[2011/03/29 15:59]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): When 2 people get into an argument, they have a chance of coming out of it in a win-win way if they keep it from turning into a ‘character contest’ – if the argument really becomes, ‘Either you are the asshole or I am the asshole,’ they will fight tooth & nail to the death. Belief, the psychological state, I think, of an individual, group, etc, = maintaining the ground of 1’s definition of onself as the 1 who is not the asshole.
[2011/03/29 15:59]  ULTIMATE ZOOBY BLACK & WHITE CAT 7.0: Hi Cupidon, i love to be pet! ^_^
[2011/03/29 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: We don’t need fixed truths in order to function. What we do need is action based on evidence in order to not screw up as often.
[2011/03/29 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: But can something be supported by so much evidence from so many different scientific fields that we can go futher and say ‘it is FACT’.?
[2011/03/29 16:00]  Anthony Hollow: brb
[2011/03/29 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: that’s usually what we call scientific theory 🙂
[2011/03/29 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: For instance, is it safe to say the Earth cannot fit into a shoebox?
[2011/03/29 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: K’s cat is assaulting toy!
[2011/03/29 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: So let’s proceed on the assumption we are ALL assholes Cupidon! ha ha
[2011/03/29 16:01]  Lem Skall: how big a shoebox?
[2011/03/29 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: I/2 a breadbox, lem.
[2011/03/29 16:01]  ULTIMATE ZOOBY BLACK & WHITE CAT 7.0: Hi any1, i love to be pet! ^_^
[2011/03/29 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: how big breadbox?
[2011/03/29 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: 2 shoeboxes Ivy
[2011/03/29 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: hahaha
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Luisa Bourgoin: how much earth? a shovel?
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Lem Skall: Toy, why did you move away from me? ;P
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: You know..normal size. I mean…look there has GOT to be something that is TRUE. Even if it is the statement ‘nothing is absolutely true’.
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Toy (aeni.silvercloud): /me smiles 😉
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Lem Skall: 1 != 0, that is true
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: toy naturally gravitates to cocks Lem
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: figure that one out
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me grins
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Lem Skall: ouch!
[2011/03/29 16:02]  Frederick Hansome: The only truth is the speed of light in a vacuum
[2011/03/29 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo but if nothing IS absolutely true, what does that mean for the statement ‘nothing is absolutely true’?
[2011/03/29 16:03]  Elizabeth Spieler: Life is true and has no opposite
[2011/03/29 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: isn’t death opposite to life?
[2011/03/29 16:03]  Elizabeth Spieler: birth is opposite of death
[2011/03/29 16:04]  Lem Skall: we don’t even know what IS life
[2011/03/29 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Opposites define each other usually.
[2011/03/29 16:04]  Luisa Bourgoin: nor is death definet
[2011/03/29 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: birth is like opposite to dying
[2011/03/29 16:04]  Elizabeth Spieler: everyone knows what Life is, it’s just no one can explain it
[2011/03/29 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Lem. We cannot define life.
[2011/03/29 16:04]  Lem Skall: no
[2011/03/29 16:04]  Elizabeth Spieler: no one is looking for their body
[2011/03/29 16:04]  Elizabeth Spieler: no one has ever said I AM NOT – and were sane
[2011/03/29 16:04]  Cupidon-Pépin (cupidon.steerpike): k, I’ve thought of a way I would use the word belief. A villain asks me to come in on a murder spree with him. He tells me that people are worthless and deserve to die. I say, “I don’t believe that.”
[2011/03/29 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: The philosophers attempt to define those opposites Elizabeth, except they use the terms ‘Being’ and ‘Nothingness’ as the opposites.
[2011/03/29 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I think Lem means, we do not really know why this bunch of matter is just inert and that bunch of matter is animate and ‘alive’., given that it is all made up of the same elements, pretty much.
[2011/03/29 16:05]  Elizabeth Spieler: Art very few women philosophers for us to learn from I agree
[2011/03/29 16:05]  Faust: Friends ON has been set, so my new Friend can play with me 🙂
[2011/03/29 16:05]  Lem Skall: Extie, more than that, we don’t even know what matter is and not even existence
[2011/03/29 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Cupidon: we all believe in a lot of things, the phrase “belief system” in common language didn’t come out of nowhere
[2011/03/29 16:05]  Elizabeth Spieler: they get killed by men is why
[2011/03/29 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: We don’t know all the answers, Extie, but we are learning some of them as we go along. DNA was a huge step along the way.
[2011/03/29 16:06]  Lem Skall: how did we live before we discovered DNA?
[2011/03/29 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: just about the same as after?
[2011/03/29 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Until 1953 I think, Lem!
[2011/03/29 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we have progressed from it being a mystery to it being a problem. A ‘mystery’ is when you have no clue and do not even know how to ask the right question..a ‘problem’ is when you have an inkling of what it is you are looking for.
[2011/03/29 16:08]  Lem Skall: Extie, we don’t call them problems anymore, we call them challenges
[2011/03/29 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: Just because we don’t underswtand something doesn’t mean we won’t be able to understand it someday….
[2011/03/29 16:08]  Catlynn Valencia: *Laughs.*
[2011/03/29 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is plenty of stuff we are at the mystery level with still
[2011/03/29 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I remember the point in my life when I realized that I didn’t have to have all the answers to life. It was a liberating moment.
[2011/03/29 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Ivy. Like questions to do with how the mind works. Some we have answered, some have become problems but there are also some mysteries.
[2011/03/29 16:09]  Lem Skall: Art, that sounds mysterious
[2011/03/29 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: define problem 🙂
[2011/03/29 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: I just did.
[2011/03/29 16:10]  Lem Skall: btw, who let the dogs out?
[2011/03/29 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: woof , woof woof
[2011/03/29 16:11]  Lem Skall: anyone thought of that song when they read my question?
[2011/03/29 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes
[2011/03/29 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ha ha, who didn’t!
[2011/03/29 16:11]  Lem Skall: good
[2011/03/29 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: yes Art, Who? Who who who?
[2011/03/29 16:11]  Lem Skall: so we all DO believe in something
[2011/03/29 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: We believe, but provisionally, Lem.
[2011/03/29 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: some justdonttest
[2011/03/29 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: I beliieve that Art’s approach to the truth is almost exactly that of Micheal Shermer the editor of Skeptic magazine.
[2011/03/29 16:12]  Frederick Hansome: too many times we do not consider our beliefs as “provisional”, but fixed, come hell or high water
[2011/03/29 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Down boy!
[2011/03/29 16:13]  Lem Skall: Ivy, I was thinking of the same thing
[2011/03/29 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me mutes sound
[2011/03/29 16:14]  Lem Skall: ok, blocking each pet
[2011/03/29 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/03/29 16:14]  Lem Skall: no need to block Toy, she’s quiet
[2011/03/29 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I just KNEW that dog would move as soon as I had my snapshot composed!!
[2011/03/29 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: That was a totally ‘only in sl ‘ moment.
[2011/03/29 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: OK so are we finished with the topic then? Does anyone have anything else they wish to add?
[2011/03/29 16:16]  Lem Skall: I don’t believe I have anything to add
[2011/03/29 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Haha!
[2011/03/29 16:16]  Object: Hello, Avatar!
[2011/03/29 16:16]  Object: Touched.
[2011/03/29 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: I believe that Lem is correct
[2011/03/29 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/03/29 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok can I call it closed, then?
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Lem Skall: you MAY
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: No objections?
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: It is someone elses cat attackig my pug
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: I am sorry
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: OBJECTION!
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Overruled!!
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: always wanted to say it
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/03/29 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: btw, who is the source of that obnoxious sound?
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Lem Skall: what are we going to talk about then?
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: STOP RAPING THE CAT!
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok so this topic is closed!
[2011/03/29 16:17]  Lem Skall: it’s consensual!
[2011/03/29 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: WE HATE CHANGE?
This entry was posted in after thinkers. Bookmark the permalink.

One Response to Thinkers March 29 2011: Knowing The Truth.

  1. Arch says:

    Fun discussion 🙂 – I can’t decide if I wish I had been there, or I’m glad I wasn’t *g*

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