Thinkers Feb 22 2011: Express Yourself.

Toy and Ivy at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/02/22 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello Prad
[2011/02/22 15:33]  Prad Prathivi: Hey 🙂
[2011/02/22 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: HI there Prad!
[2011/02/22 15:33]  Prad Prathivi: Hiya!
[2011/02/22 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: If you like, we can expand today’s topic to include a general discussion about what gesture-based interaction with computing means in general, not just in terms of SL..
[2011/02/22 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: So, woth that possibility in mind the topic today is…
[2011/02/22 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: EXPRESS YOURSELF: Hamlet Au asked: All else being equal, would you prefer an avatar which only embodies expressiveness that is controlled by you, or an avatar which expresses what you’re really feeling in real time (often, whether you want to or not)?
[2011/02/22 15:34]  Anya Heberle: INtelligent Avis?
[2011/02/22 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: former
[2011/02/22 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: /end threat
[2011/02/22 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/02/22 15:35]  Camilla Delvalle: They wouldn’t be any more intelligent, Anya.
[2011/02/22 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: I was toying with the idea of removing the part where it says ‘whether you want to or not’.
[2011/02/22 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: I remember some speculation about software that would use your webcam to read your facial expressions and apply them to your avatar.
[2011/02/22 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Which sounds pretty cool to me, actually.
[2011/02/22 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: So we are considering a future system where avatar expressions are tied to our operator’s body?
[2011/02/22 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think there would be a lot of eating, drinking and smoking happening to start with! ha ha ha
[2011/02/22 15:36]  Anya Heberle: oh yeah you could programme them to react in certain ways
[2011/02/22 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: This topic is mostly inspired by those experiments using a Kinect controller to animate your avatar in SL and other online worlds/ mmorpgs.
[2011/02/22 15:36]  Camilla Delvalle: Of course if this is implemented, the user will probably get a choice if they want to use it or have traditional avatar.
[2011/02/22 15:36]  Anya Heberle: for formal or casual
[2011/02/22 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Voice can add a lot of expressiveness. . . but also has a lot of shortcomings.
[2011/02/22 15:37]  Anya Heberle: shared (assoiate
[2011/02/22 15:37]  Anya Heberle: shared (Friend
[2011/02/22 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think it would break the suspension of disbelief that many think is what makes virtual characters great.
[2011/02/22 15:37]  Anya Heberle: that way you can filter the world to your needs
[2011/02/22 15:37]  Camilla Delvalle: I think the technology sounds interesting, and it will probably be implemented somewhere soon, if not already.
[2011/02/22 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s an interesting though, ArtCrash. . . Can you elaborate on it?
[2011/02/22 15:38]  Damian Barthelemy: hello:)
[2011/02/22 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Sometimes I attend theatre in SL. I can definitely see performance capture adding to plays and stuff.
[2011/02/22 15:38]  Luisa Bourgoin: if you look at how far internet users reconfigure/override their browser settings
[2011/02/22 15:38]  Camilla Delvalle: Yes Zobeid, in a roleplay environment in a rpg, voice could bread the immersion, if the voice doesn’t sound like it comes from the avatar.
[2011/02/22 15:38]  Luisa Bourgoin: I doubt that they will let their avatars go on the loose
[2011/02/22 15:39]  Luisa Bourgoin: /me tugs on control wire tentatively
[2011/02/22 15:39]  Prad Prathivi: They say one of the biggest reasons video-conferencing on mobile telephones never took off is because on the telephone, we have no desire to see each other. I put it forth that the true is same in Second Life.. we want that suspension of disbelief.
[2011/02/22 15:39]  Prad Prathivi: *same is true
[2011/02/22 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: When roleplaying a virtual character, you want to have expressions that are different from yourself. For example a woman playing a man would give away their gender by making rl female gestures.
[2011/02/22 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Say Arisia wants to give me a hug. Would the Kinect way mean my primary has to mime a hug so I copy the move? I am not sure that would be any closer to really hugging Ari (for my primary) than the current method of choosing an animation. Might even feel a lot sillier.
[2011/02/22 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, I thought you meant facial expressions. . .
[2011/02/22 15:40]  Anya Heberle: ink wrapped effects,,.
[2011/02/22 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me says hi!
[2011/02/22 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Extie says hello
[2011/02/22 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hiya Gwyn
[2011/02/22 15:41]  Anya Heberle: or cmon place instances could be filtered out or rengineered…lol
[2011/02/22 15:41]  Prad Prathivi: Hey Gwyn =_
[2011/02/22 15:41]  Prad Prathivi: =)
[2011/02/22 15:41]  Camilla Delvalle: Yes Art, I agree that you might want to separate your own expressions from the avatars in rpg. On the other hand, then the games would need to be more developed to simulate expressions. I mean as it is now, avatars are quite expressionless.
[2011/02/22 15:42]  Anya Heberle: react / no react voce command popuops
[2011/02/22 15:42]  Camilla Delvalle: Also, talking in voice is faster than chatting in text.
[2011/02/22 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn we are discussing the future of gesture-based computing, with a particular emphasis on avatars fully expressing what the primary’s facial and body language is (whether you want to or not).
[2011/02/22 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, yes…. hehe
[2011/02/22 15:42]  Luisa Bourgoin: thw reasons why video telephony failed on handys has been .. the camera merely filming many ears fullscreen
[2011/02/22 15:42]  Anya Heberle: o you can emphasise or residualise the meeting/actvities essnces
[2011/02/22 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh I never thought about that, luisa! After all, webcam chat is immensely popular….
[2011/02/22 15:43]  Camilla Delvalle: I’m eating ice cream right now. I wonder how that would look like on my avatar with only the expressions and without the spoon and the ice-cream.
[2011/02/22 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have found myself getting very angry at someone. Yet trying not to show it in SL. It would escalate a social situation if you were unable to do the political thing sometimes……
[2011/02/22 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: I quite like the idea of inferring what my primary is looking at and acting on voice command. So, my primary looks at the green sofa where Camilla is sitting, says ‘sit’ and I walk over there and sit.
[2011/02/22 15:44]  Luisa Bourgoin: face expressions alone would hint to different activities
[2011/02/22 15:44]  Anya Heberle: by left and right mouse clicks for yes adnnd now,. or blinking set to random or simulated
[2011/02/22 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha! That could be funny, Camilla. 🙂
[2011/02/22 15:44]  Anya Heberle: *no
[2011/02/22 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Of course I’m thinking that people who have virtual sex would have to try really hard not to appear to be faking it! ha ha ha
[2011/02/22 15:45]  Camilla Delvalle: 🙂
[2011/02/22 15:45]  Prad Prathivi: On webcam, the other person can see directly if you’re doing something else (such as eating ice cream). That’ll just come across as confusing in SL™ with a Kinectess-type motion detector
[2011/02/22 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: There *should* be an easy way to toggle it on/off.
[2011/02/22 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think direct movement would point out the people who are drinking too much too! heh
[2011/02/22 15:46]  Anya Heberle: thats why the option would be nice
[2011/02/22 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: the further you wanna go away from any immersive experience, the more RL you need ot mix inside
[2011/02/22 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me will be expressionless tonight on Scarp’s immobility couch™
[2011/02/22 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me Spanks scarp and writes a memo for him to fix it already!
[2011/02/22 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, Art, I meet my SL partner for lovemaking every Saturday at 3 ish. Which is 11pm for my primary. And if I were copying my primary I would be like..’YAAWWWWWWN’. I mean, I love my partner and I love the sex, but our primaries get tired out you know? So I would rather be fresh energetic me than the sleepy head my primary is at that time of day!
[2011/02/22 15:47]  Prad Prathivi: The other question would be, exactly how much do we move around when in front of the computer? The Kinect is great because the games for it involve active movement, but Second Life would only really be interesting if sims were designed to account for that movement.
[2011/02/22 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kinect does capture facial expressions, Prad?
[2011/02/22 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is Kinect-less
[2011/02/22 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: If I were to copy my primary right now, I would be miming typing….um…
[2011/02/22 15:48]  Prad Prathivi: Yup it does, but I’m in a constant state of expressionlessness
[2011/02/22 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: I think not, actually. Although…come to think of it, they did demo facial anims for the Kinect so…yes.
[2011/02/22 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe… but that’s really interesting, I thought that it would just capture gestures, not the subtleness of facial expressions….
[2011/02/22 15:49]  Prad Prathivi: If the Kinect could only detect facial expressions, it wouldn’t be such a hot product
[2011/02/22 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m wondering if the economic power of the animation makers would keep this from happening! Never underestimate the power of money.
[2011/02/22 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I think it is finger movements it cannot detect.
[2011/02/22 15:50]  Luisa Bourgoin: curiously watching these interface enhancements as some … expansion of possibilities. Of course there is great danger these can reduce the gameplay we are accustomed to
[2011/02/22 15:50]  Anya Heberle: you could own a set of opads for your mouth and lids that infra speacto radio transmitter
[2011/02/22 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A side note…. the academic world of software engineering is positively *drooling* at the Kinect. The equivalent thing in astrophysics would have been an alien UFO landing on the Pentagon and saying”Yes, yes, FTL, we do it every day”. 5 years ago, papers were written about things like Kinect being *impossible* from the perspective of technological breakthroughs 🙂
[2011/02/22 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (also shows how narrow-minded some academics really are)
[2011/02/22 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Well so far, Art, the kinect does not allow you to mimic your RL self. Rather, certain gestures trigger certain pre-canned animations. So, you pose like superman in flight, and that makes your avatar fly.
[2011/02/22 15:50]  Camilla Delvalle: I’m sure this kind of technology will be implemented pretty soon. It can’t be far away technologically.
[2011/02/22 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: How hard wold it be to implement Wii type technology in SL?
[2011/02/22 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Before Kinect came out, Mitch Wagner prototyped something using a web cam.
[2011/02/22 15:51]  Prad Prathivi: I’m not sure what it would add to the SL™ experience though.
[2011/02/22 15:52]  Luisa Bourgoin: Mitch wants to glue RL into SL
[2011/02/22 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Lem
[2011/02/22 15:52]  Lem Skall: hi everyone
[2011/02/22 15:52]  Anya Heberle: with a squeeze trigger for the emphasis on registered effects physically giving you a narative tool to interact with for socio constructed dynmics!
[2011/02/22 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm squeeze triggers….
[2011/02/22 15:52]  Camilla Delvalle: That’s cool Anya.
[2011/02/22 15:52]  Anya Heberle: so yo can play witth your avatar
[2011/02/22 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, uh, play… right….
[2011/02/22 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: I think in certain circumstances it could be great. Like..key note addresses, interviews, machinimas…they would be much richer with fully expressive avatars.
[2011/02/22 15:53]  Prad Prathivi: Agreed, on machinimas particularly
[2011/02/22 15:53]  Lem Skall: as opposed to playing with myself?
[2011/02/22 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Whatever the tech will be to tie avatar movement to human movement, you can bet that the porn industry will be first to implement it I’m thinking…. heh
[2011/02/22 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: My sister is a dancer in RL and one of my ambitions is to watch her dance. So a kinect-type interface might let me do just that.
[2011/02/22 15:54]  Camilla Delvalle: There are already mouth movements when speaking in voice in SL, I recently discovered.
[2011/02/22 15:54]  Luisa Bourgoin: these are synthetic moves
[2011/02/22 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that goes without saying, Art… 🙂
[2011/02/22 15:55]  Anya Heberle: yes yor laughingb you pullon it ard instructing avatar to respond to percntag animations eqivalent to your required dynamic interest or film maybe
[2011/02/22 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah the lip synch is quite good. Well..it is in the videos I have watched.
[2011/02/22 15:55]  Lem Skall: now, why would we have to choose and why not have both systems? to use under different circumstances
[2011/02/22 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, there you go, Lem. Options, options!
[2011/02/22 15:55]  Anya Heberle: or speeching with more emphasis on displays
[2011/02/22 15:55]  Camilla Delvalle: Yes, I’m sure there will be a choice, Lem.
[2011/02/22 15:55]  Anya Heberle: rather than social IA
[2011/02/22 15:55]  Luisa Bourgoin: that freaks me out at Metanomics every week … people talking on next sim, and lip syncs failing
[2011/02/22 15:56]  Anya Heberle: so your not disturbing anyones view to much
[2011/02/22 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, I really don’t have strong opinions. In my leisure I do a lot of webcam chat, but sometimes I cannot even *smile* (because I’m busy, or being watched, whatever) and people complain. So I’d love to have some sort of interface to replac emy own face by a smiling one. I can do that in SL eeasily!
[2011/02/22 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: How far does SL voice travel anyway?
[2011/02/22 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On other moments, I want the reverse —… I might be laughing out loud iRL, and I want people to see how much fun I’m having
[2011/02/22 15:57]  Anya Heberle: vocally ortext
[2011/02/22 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh Art, some tests show that it travels quite far 🙂
[2011/02/22 15:57]  Anya Heberle: I hthink textis 20 ft
[2011/02/22 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 20 m for text
[2011/02/22 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sharp 🙂
[2011/02/22 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, we tested that at thinkers once…. heh
[2011/02/22 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: voice carries 30 m at least, but sometimes you can still hear something at 50 m or even further away
[2011/02/22 15:58]  Prad Prathivi: Should it be indicated that an avatar is being motion-sensed to other avatars?
[2011/02/22 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Remember the Botgirl comic strip ‘what really happens during Sl sex’? One pic showed an avatar in the throes of passion. Next to it, a picture of the primary, looking very bored, and distracted, and painting her nails.
[2011/02/22 15:58]  Lem Skall: how about we reclaim the virtues of text only without the emotions ? Isn’t anyone going to see the advantages of that?
[2011/02/22 15:59]  Anya Heberle: 0db is good
[2011/02/22 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t think so Prad. Things are too invasive as it is…..
[2011/02/22 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Painting nails can be regarded as sexy for some, lol
[2011/02/22 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prad, perhaps we could have a visual indicator, like we have for voice too…
[2011/02/22 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes:) I agree:) Text with emotions ruined text:(
[2011/02/22 15:59]  Camilla Delvalle: Maybe, Lem. I think it feels false when I wirte “lol” while I’m actually only smiling a bit, if even that.
[2011/02/22 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha Extie
[2011/02/22 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡ <—- smiles a bit
[2011/02/22 16:00]  Anya Heberle: but increased recording level will consider a greater playback area
[2011/02/22 16:00]  Lem Skall: but it’s just a different type of communication with its own pros and cons
[2011/02/22 16:00]  Lem Skall: we adapt to it though
[2011/02/22 16:00]  Camilla Delvalle: lol
[2011/02/22 16:00]  Prad Prathivi: I find it interesting that you don’t know if someone is having their voice manipulated in SL.. I guess there’s no reason face-motion can’t be kept “secret” too?
[2011/02/22 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha!
[2011/02/22 16:01]  Lem Skall: and how are we going to record and publish the emotions that went through in a meeting like this one?
[2011/02/22 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think it should be Prad.
[2011/02/22 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now we’re getting to more interesting discussions 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:01]  Anya Heberle: thats wht redliners vocally all sound the same distance
[2011/02/22 16:01]  Prad Prathivi: I vaguely remember an attachment with would play face emotions in SL™ when you said certain keywords.. like if you swore, your avatar’s face would look angry
[2011/02/22 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Imagine the contradictions of the gesture and what we say in text. ‘Do you like my new dress?’ ‘Yes it is lovely’ (says the avatar, whose face and body language is one of abject horror).
[2011/02/22 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That happens every day 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:01]  Camilla Delvalle: lol
[2011/02/22 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: I tried some of those voice morphing things and they are pretty funny, especially the monster ones. Problem is they are too expensive to use regularly in my opinion.
[2011/02/22 16:02]  Prad Prathivi: They’re a novelty, simply because of the price
[2011/02/22 16:02]  Prad Prathivi: Try it once, and never again
[2011/02/22 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Art. Specially because you can get similar things for free on the net hehe
[2011/02/22 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Prad
[2011/02/22 16:02]  Camilla Delvalle: In that case they will be freeware pretty soon, if get cracked.
[2011/02/22 16:03]  Camilla Delvalle: Art, is it possible to morph voice in SL?
[2011/02/22 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it takes time to tweak and install those morphing softwares
[2011/02/22 16:03]  Prad Prathivi: If face-motion was a paid for option too, then that would also become a novelty? I guess not if you’ve invested in a Kinect-esque device..
[2011/02/22 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the voice morphing pricing was set during the period when they were hysterical about new revenue streams…..
[2011/02/22 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Linden Labs actually *sells* voice morphs now. . . don’t they?
[2011/02/22 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, yes, that’s what we’re talking about
[2011/02/22 16:03]  Prad Prathivi: Yes they do.. though the uptake’s not been… great
[2011/02/22 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And they’re easy to install!
[2011/02/22 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, too expensive I guess
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: what’s the price?
[2011/02/22 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: 250 Lindens a week
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: L$750 per week? or month?
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2011/02/22 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Anya Heberle: electro static air compressions may be easier but then agand effects of undeirdd .local feedbacksn so would be thhe manipulation of sensetivities
[2011/02/22 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: don’t quote me
[2011/02/22 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: OK forget that. 😛
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t quote me either 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Anya Heberle: again*
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: I was about to joke they should make it a fee
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Prad Prathivi: It’s not that’s it’s expensive, I don’t think.. I think it’s more that it’s useless, yet they still expect we’d pay for it.
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I so totally agree 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: guess reality turned out to have more sense of humor than I do
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think for 100L a month they would be adopted by many. Because they ARE very fun.
[2011/02/22 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: “Don’t quote me either :)”- Gwyneth Llewelyn, 2011.
[2011/02/22 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2011/02/22 16:05]  Prad Prathivi: heh
[2011/02/22 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. For L$100/month even I would have some fun with voice morphing!
[2011/02/22 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: I think if they’d sell them instead of requiring an ongoing subscription fee, it would make more sense.
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: precisely Zo 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’m sure they have a completely misplaced sense of business 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Prad Prathivi: I did a machinima a while back comparing all the voices.. at least 60% of them made me sound creepy. Including the original (normal) voice.
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And, of course, being LL, they never do market analysis…
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: What if the rent ran out? Would you go from Darth Vader to an 18 year old girl just like that?
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Prad :=
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Prad Prathivi: Oh God Extropia.. I really really hope so.
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, they have packs, Extie, that’s the fun of it
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Prad: I believe I’ve seen it actually
[2011/02/22 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The packs are “related voices”
[2011/02/22 16:07]  Camilla Delvalle: Prad, is your machinima on youtube or something?
[2011/02/22 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: The way the packs were put together didn’t make much sense….. just my opinion.
[2011/02/22 16:07]  Prad Prathivi: yup it is
[2011/02/22 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: You know, in Xbox Live they included voice masking, but the community deemed it socially unacceptable to use voice masking.
[2011/02/22 16:07]  Anya Heberle: if they came as virtual world peripherals they would induce more income and support thats why thwe mouse clicjk idea
[2011/02/22 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is because they need to prove girls are real on Xbox! ha ha
[2011/02/22 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: it can be cool for pretending darth vader and the like
[2011/02/22 16:08]  Luisa Bourgoin: if one community refused … there really is no need for further market research!
[2011/02/22 16:08]  Anya Heberle: why xtropia?
[2011/02/22 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: or they prefer to live in ignorance, haha
[2011/02/22 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because of Art just said 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:08]  Prad Prathivi: Well in Second Life, guys can be girls and girls can be aliens. Voice morphing just adds a new element to that.
[2011/02/22 16:09]  Anya Heberle: girls ad guys i a phyically taboo social objecttio
[2011/02/22 16:09]  Prad Prathivi: Forging motion sensing would be an interesting angle though..
[2011/02/22 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes I went shopping with a few friends and we all talked in monster voices, it was very awesome. ha ha ha
[2011/02/22 16:09]  Ozbozz Bedrosian: Hi all
[2011/02/22 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not know why. Fears of people hiding their ifdentity I guess. If anyone used a voice mask they got cat calls like ;’TURN IT OFF’! ‘YOU SUCK, FAKER!’.
[2011/02/22 16:09]  Prad Prathivi: I’m not sure us lads can bat our eyelids like the ladies can
[2011/02/22 16:09]  Anya Heberle: objection but theen as is porting sexualities
[2011/02/22 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Ozbozz
[2011/02/22 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Eyelid batting is a definite skill set. Takes years of practice!
[2011/02/22 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha! For me the ultimate voice morpher would be one that hides my *accent*!
[2011/02/22 16:10]  Prad Prathivi: I don’t doubt it 😉
[2011/02/22 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting point Gwyn
[2011/02/22 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe we all have something to hide….
[2011/02/22 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: I spik perfict gud inglish, there iz nofing vrong with my accent
[2011/02/22 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: And a voice morpher that would let you add any accent you would like would be very cool.
[2011/02/22 16:11]  Prad Prathivi: “I don’t have an accent.. it’s all of you who have the accent!”
[2011/02/22 16:11]  Anya Heberle: its oone commnities objective to vote gender changes…ts not a real inductive objective
[2011/02/22 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ikzaktly, Eevie 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Camilla Delvalle: Or speak a different language, and you have a translator to hear what other people say in that language.
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “to vote gender changes”?Now that’s something you can actually *vote* on? Wow. Democracy is becoming fascinating!
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Camilla Delvalle: You coul’d pretend you come from Kazakhstan.
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh ye, Camilla — I’d love to speak fluent Japanese with an Imperial Court accent 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’d say it becomes scary
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: Democracy that is
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Any time someone wants to discuss realtime body language copying and not just voice masking, you know, like getting back on topic…fell free;)
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Ozbozz Bedrosian: (listening)
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: but that’s a completely separate subject for me 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Prad Prathivi: heh
[2011/02/22 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie !
[2011/02/22 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: It seems like we are pointing out the ways in which we want to do the OPPOSITE of RL gesture and voice. And that is where our true interests lie. This says a lot about this topic I think.
[2011/02/22 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well. My theory is that you can personalise everything about your avatar, within technological limits of course
[2011/02/22 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so, well, I’d like to personalise my facial expressions and body gestures.
[2011/02/22 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s not about who we are and how we feel, but how we want to be seen
[2011/02/22 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *if* that technology exists, then I’d be all for it!
[2011/02/22 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: I am a Kurzweilian! I do not believe in limits!
[2011/02/22 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Ivy!
[2011/02/22 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Limits are a mathematical constraint, not a questio of faith, Extie 😉
[2011/02/22 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, to be precise, I believe the limits are not very limiting.
[2011/02/22 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Except for Gödel.
[2011/02/22 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins and notices that we’re shifting the topic… again hehe
[2011/02/22 16:14]  Marie Eriksson (mariberry.oh): Ivy is right. ppl get online and show u things which they want u to see. so just because someone seems one way doesn’t mean he is that way in RL
[2011/02/22 16:15]  Ozbozz Bedrosian: interesting conversation in here
[2011/02/22 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that’s a complex issue, Marie 🙂 I’d say that he IS that way in RL, but feels constrained — socially or otherwise — to behave differently.
[2011/02/22 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We meet every Tuesday at 3:30 PM SLT, Ozbozz, it’s like that every week and has been so since March 2004 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Personally, I always thought Jeff Han’s multitouch screen looked like a better way to interact with SL. I can imagine people collaborating on a build using a Minority Report kind of interface.
[2011/02/22 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yeeeees!!!!
[2011/02/22 16:16]  Ozbozz Bedrosian: ok Gwyn
[2011/02/22 16:16]  Prad Prathivi: Does motion-sensory detection not pave way to the whole “uncanny valley” feeling?
[2011/02/22 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: No
[2011/02/22 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me loves the uncanny valley!
[2011/02/22 16:16]  Prad Prathivi: Well that answer that 😉
[2011/02/22 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: we are crippled by silly social rules IRL when it comes to how we can present ourselves – “what will people think!?”
[2011/02/22 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: that seems to not apply in SL, at least not until you get banned from a sim *grins*
[2011/02/22 16:17]  Prad Prathivi: I’m not so keen on the uncanny valley.. I like a seperation between what’s real and what’s not
[2011/02/22 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, yes, we give too much importance to what people think about us, lol
[2011/02/22 16:17]  Ozbozz Bedrosian: its what Ivy said
[2011/02/22 16:17]  Anya Heberle: the body is a complex one way transmitter anything else is..deceptive..o.O
[2011/02/22 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha Prad 🙂 Now that’s philosophical, you’d have to be absolutely sure about what is real and what is not 😉
[2011/02/22 16:18]  Prad Prathivi: Well now we’re really digging into things.. 😉
[2011/02/22 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Reason why not is becaise the uncanny valley happens when your CG person is very, very close to looking like a real person, but with subtle differences making the illusion not quite real. A totally cartoonish person like myself with naturalistic motion is *not* nearly humanlike enough to trigger the effect.
[2011/02/22 16:18]  Anya Heberle: 😉
[2011/02/22 16:18]  Anya Heberle: ifg you inject fluid into flesh its like tickling
[2011/02/22 16:18]  Camilla Delvalle: I’m not sure if I find uncanny vally uncanny. I don’t remember having that reaction.
[2011/02/22 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: from my perspective, I like to see myself as a “reality builder” in SL — creating my own version of reality — and if LL gives us nifty tools for that, I’m all for it 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: We go a long way to avoid pre conceived notions about people when in SL. I think that is a good thing and leads to better communication. We can’t rely on our prejudicial clues to write off people as easily.
[2011/02/22 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: I blame Hamlet for the misunderstanding, myself.
[2011/02/22 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear, Art
[2011/02/22 16:19]  Prad Prathivi: But how long before our avatars do look that realistic? SL’s come a long way in that regard over the past 5 years
[2011/02/22 16:19]  Ozbozz Bedrosian: i dont forget the words of Ivy
[2011/02/22 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not too long, I’m sure. SL seen from the perspective of one of those ultra-high-end graphics cards is really, really impressive
[2011/02/22 16:19]  Anya Heberle: some effects especilly electromagnnetic have overflow
[2011/02/22 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Twenty years, maybe?
[2011/02/22 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps
[2011/02/22 16:19]  Ozbozz Bedrosian: it is and it will be just virtual
[2011/02/22 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That looks about right
[2011/02/22 16:20]  Anya Heberle: and can be harmfull
[2011/02/22 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Good Point Prad. This cartoon phase of avatar is just temporary. It will be interesting to note differences when things are more realistic.
[2011/02/22 16:20]  Prad Prathivi: In 20 years, I expect to be able to clone myself and not have to bother going to the supermarket anymore. Never mind a more realistic avatar.
[2011/02/22 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Ozbozz, but in 20 years, the definition of “virtual” will merely be “the reality that we create (together)” and not much more than that.
[2011/02/22 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: virtual is not unreal, it’s just not physical
[2011/02/22 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: They can just about pull it off in films, where their render farms can take 24 hours to render a single frame. And you thought lag in SL was bad now…
[2011/02/22 16:20]  Camilla Delvalle: 5 years I think. maybe not in SL but somewhere.
[2011/02/22 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent definition, Ivy!
[2011/02/22 16:21]  Anya Heberle: in fackt ifell asleep in front of y monitor
[2011/02/22 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: thank you, it’s not mine 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Though I must say that realistic avatars are still avatars and the choices we make to show our avatars will be much the same as now i think….
[2011/02/22 16:21]  Ozbozz Bedrosian: hmmm Gwyn…..we would be very poor if it will come to that day once
[2011/02/22 16:21]  Lem Skall: what do we really WANT though? it sounds to me like people talk about what would be cool but it’s not the same thing
[2011/02/22 16:21]  Anya Heberle: and like tron, felt something had been sucking and
[2011/02/22 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Good point Lem.
[2011/02/22 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good analogy, Extie. Films are 10-20 years ahead of desktop hardware that renders everything in real time… look at the processing power required to render Star Wars in the early 1980s 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:22]  Anya Heberle: licking at my ears and crown
[2011/02/22 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: These days, we have that amount of processing power on our smartphones…
[2011/02/22 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: ??
[2011/02/22 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: You meant Tron, right? 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:22]  Anya Heberle: never min the sensetive diods of my eyes
[2011/02/22 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: I want to be able to communicate better and to be able to concentrate on the situation and not the pop up menus….
[2011/02/22 16:22]  Lem Skall: I think the right question is what do we personally want to do in SL, not to just imagine cool uses for other people
[2011/02/22 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do I, Zo? lol
[2011/02/22 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaos 😀
[2011/02/22 16:23]  Anya Heberle: yes
[2011/02/22 16:23]  Ozbozz Bedrosian: BRB
[2011/02/22 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Star Wars didn’t use CG.
[2011/02/22 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: kk
[2011/02/22 16:23]  Lem Skall: Art, communicate what and with whom? and for what purpose?
[2011/02/22 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe she meant the special editions?
[2011/02/22 16:23]  Anya Heberle: where physical meets energycreate a catalyst effect
[2011/02/22 16:24]  Anya Heberle: usually. and safely balanceable… dangerouly alterable to
[2011/02/22 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem, I like the idea of gaze recongition. For example, my primary looks at something in a shop in Sl, and ‘I’ infer from the direction of the gaze what it is that is being looked at, and walk over to it. My primary might then say ‘buy’ and I buy it.
[2011/02/22 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lem: Communication in the general sense of the word in which my actions in a group social situation are easy and seamless, so that my consciouness is focused on the interation and not the peripheral controls of interacting.
[2011/02/22 16:25]  Luisa Bourgoin: would need to be triggered by physical movements .. commanding arround an avatar might even detach it more from you
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm.
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that the experience would be like driving a car….
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Anya Heberle: I f eyes are he seats of the sol then why bake them in unstable rays of Gamma fluctuation for so long with no measuring quntiser
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Prad Prathivi: There’s an idea.. SL™ glasses with built in acceletronometers
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A car is not “you”
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Rhi!
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: she has the power!
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Anya Heberle: quantisition tool
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: wb Rhi:)
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Lem Skall: Extie and Art, you are still talking about something vague and high level, not about specific and clear purpose
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s even just a crude “extension”. But… everybody has a “driving style”
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Marie Eriksson (mariberry.oh): wb rhi!
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Anya Heberle: tricks of the trade 😉
[2011/02/22 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi! I’m back. What’d I miss?
[2011/02/22 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem, you should know by now that ‘vague and high level’ is how I always talk.
[2011/02/22 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:27]  Luisa Bourgoin: yeay … may need to refresh that license, hmmm?
[2011/02/22 16:27]  Anya Heberle: you could do alot if you want to
[2011/02/22 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: BTW, aren’t there 180 degree 3D goggles out there now? And how difficult would it be to make them interface with SL?
[2011/02/22 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): For ours is a vague and high destiny.
[2011/02/22 16:28]  Luisa Bourgoin: you might want to ask such questions isnide a 3rd party viewer development group…
[2011/02/22 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Would lag make you motion sick, though?
[2011/02/22 16:28]  Anya Heberle: witpassive resistancy the most safest wuld be analogue or digital sensitivity arrays?
[2011/02/22 16:28]  Freedom (freedom.rush): until the dreaded lag exists none of this is possible i think. not to be debbie downer or anything 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that there are a lot of tools that, when used immersively, will become somehow imbued with personal characteristics. Everything vehicle.-related is that way, but there are more. This doesn’t necessarily mean that we feel “more detached” from our tools.
[2011/02/22 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: using VR goggles, I mean.
[2011/02/22 16:28]  Prad Prathivi: There’s a company out in California developing Augmented-Reality contact lenses.. something which can bring in Second Life would be pretty nifty
[2011/02/22 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): clutches her stomach at lag.
[2011/02/22 16:29]  Luisa Bourgoin: the tragedy of head movements is … curently they are frozen. you mostly look at that screen
[2011/02/22 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: Cool prad
[2011/02/22 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: Luisa, head movement is control bye your mouse pointer isn’t it?
[2011/02/22 16:29]  Luisa Bourgoin: avatar head moves, yes
[2011/02/22 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d like at least a simple mechanism (well, it’s not so simple…) where the SL camera tracks down where I’m looking at, and perhaps a multitouch interface (as suggested) to zoom in …
[2011/02/22 16:29]  Luisa Bourgoin: …which is kinda cute!
[2011/02/22 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: which I’ve disabled!
[2011/02/22 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can disable that? Oh…
[2011/02/22 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m learning every day 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: in Phoenix
[2011/02/22 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaaah
[2011/02/22 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: and in Firestorm one day I can imagine 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aw. I actually *like* that feature, even though it’s true that most AOs override them
[2011/02/22 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have had people ask “Why are you staring at me?” in SL. I have to laugh at that one….. heh
[2011/02/22 16:31]  Prad Prathivi: I’m still trying to get my head around the implications of us basically integrating our physical senses into our virtual avatars
[2011/02/22 16:31]  Luisa Bourgoin: right! AOs mold you into a form
[2011/02/22 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Haptic Life
[2011/02/22 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Been trying to do the same for five years, Prad;)
[2011/02/22 16:31]  Prad Prathivi: The sense of motion.. how long before we’re tasting and smelling SL?
[2011/02/22 16:31]  Camilla Delvalle: I wonder how much lag these new technologies will create though.
[2011/02/22 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa, one things I really would like to have is a way for *users* to decide what animations will override and what will not be overriden….
[2011/02/22 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, sometimes they can tell. I know when people are staring at me.
[2011/02/22 16:32]  Camilla Delvalle: I’m almost crashing from lag at the moment.
[2011/02/22 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Prad: I think we can add taste smell and touch when we wire directly into our brains. This won’t be for a while though…. heh
[2011/02/22 16:32]  Prad Prathivi: I imagine if they’re all client side controls, not much lag?
[2011/02/22 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: Prad: just after I can hit someone in the face on the other side of the planet 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:32]  Lem Skall: hmmm, we’re still talking about cool technology, not about real uses
[2011/02/22 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see them as building blocks for self-expression, Lem 🙂
[2011/02/22 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Well you can all use your closing statements to think up real uses, and then I am calling this meeting closed.
[2011/02/22 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: my very earliest AO had been a Mood Mixer, that contained several low priority partial animations .. just hands, just head moves, jsut legs walk … you could mix & match these
[2011/02/22 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that means a certain “detachment” from what our physical selves are doing.
[2011/02/22 16:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: the concept should have been persued further
[2011/02/22 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa, I love those! All my anims are actually like that, because, well, that’s how LL planned to have them being used…
[2011/02/22 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Luisa, but the market dictated otherwise!
[2011/02/22 16:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: but most anims are level 4 (like playdead) and full body stance
[2011/02/22 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well my time is up!
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This entry was posted in after thinkers. Bookmark the permalink.

One Response to Thinkers Feb 22 2011: Express Yourself.

  1. Arch says:

    too much thinking, not enough hugging

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