THINKERS JANUARY 18 2011: NEEDLESS THINGS

Sona Spizel at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: NEEDLESS THINGS: In ‘The Cultural Contradiction of Captialism’, Daniel Bell explained how ours is an economy created not to feed our belly, but our lifestyle. Arguably, this reached its pinnacle with SL, where nothing you buy is essential to life, only lifestyle. What are the pros and cons of living in this kind of society?[2011/01/18 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The cons is that I’m late… lol[2011/01/18 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: No just in time dear:)[2011/01/18 15:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: hiya Gwyn![2011/01/18 15:31]  toBe Destiny: (we are just starting @ G L)[2011/01/18 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *chuckles*[2011/01/18 15:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Sit with us Gwyn! This is the oldbies couch. :D[2011/01/18 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh there is now an oldbies couch?[2011/01/18 15:31]  Catz Jewell: my belly fits in my lifestyle though[2011/01/18 15:31]  Pip Torok: don’t say that gwyn, we’ll all get ideas[2011/01/18 15:31]  TaraLi Jie: Well, we have to look at Maslow’s pyramid of needs…[2011/01/18 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Pip[2011/01/18 15:31]  Mick Nerido: nothing is SL is real or necessary[2011/01/18 15:32]  TaraLi Jie: Hum… Oldbies…[2011/01/18 15:32]  toBe Destiny: .. and so where is the discussion[2011/01/18 15:32]  TaraLi Jie: There’s a few of us here…[2011/01/18 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Friendship is real and necessary:)[2011/01/18 15:32]  TaraLi Jie: Hi, Sona.[2011/01/18 15:32]  toBe Destiny: are we off topic already[2011/01/18 15:32]  toBe Destiny: ??[2011/01/18 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe[2011/01/18 15:32]  Pip Torok: I wd dispute that … SL feeds interaction to the brain and stimulates it[2011/01/18 15:32]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I find changes of clothing necessary[2011/01/18 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: We are off topic when I say we are:)[2011/01/18 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we’re breaking our own records…[2011/01/18 15:32]  TaraLi Jie: We’ve conquered, more or less, everything Maslow had at the base of his pyramid…[2011/01/18 15:32]  TaraLi Jie: Food, shelter, etc.[2011/01/18 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: I think that SL is in many cases such an extreme parody of the satisfaction of desires, that in fact SL helps people to attain new levels of consumption (and emanipation or selfrealization) OR they act as a freudian conquest of vain desires and the ridiculous consumerism that pervades the world – Sartori of it as it were…[2011/01/18 15:33]  Pip Torok: speak for yourself![2011/01/18 15:33]  allforyou Triellis: health care do we need it…[2011/01/18 15:33]  Sona Spizel: Hi Everybody[2011/01/18 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: hello[2011/01/18 15:33]  Mick Nerido: We take familar forms to be comfortable[2011/01/18 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea — I’m guilty as charged! haha[2011/01/18 15:33]  toBe Destiny: @ G L the need is to seperate the topics of discourse and move people to where they speak, “what you say is where you go”[2011/01/18 15:33]  allforyou Triellis: or would you rather live a sandwich course life[2011/01/18 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I like that, Mick.[2011/01/18 15:33]  toBe Destiny: so that there can actualy be real discussions about topics that have some substance[2011/01/18 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, @Extie and @Mick[2011/01/18 15:34]  allforyou Triellis: could be where you go is where you think you were going[2011/01/18 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Cons. . . The Lindens established a system of currency and a system of copy protection (or “permissions”) and artificial scaricty that subsidizes capitalism. Without those dubious (to me) features, SL would look a lot different.[2011/01/18 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “necessary” is such a strong word… ;)[2011/01/18 15:34]  allforyou Triellis: a picture in ones mind of where your going[2011/01/18 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Zo, they would look like the OpenSim grids ;)[2011/01/18 15:34]  toBe Destiny: i move the mute function[2011/01/18 15:34]  TaraLi Jie: True, Zobeid…[2011/01/18 15:34]  TaraLi Jie: *laughs* Exactly, Gwyneth…[2011/01/18 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: I think SL can actually ‘exorcise’ the silly consumerism we are all tempted to succunb to…[2011/01/18 15:34]  Mick Nerido: I have yet to buy anything in SL[2011/01/18 15:34]  allforyou Triellis: a concept it mgiht be totally diffrent once there[2011/01/18 15:34]  TaraLi Jie: And they likely would not be nearly as big.[2011/01/18 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: The OpenSim grids have permissions too.[2011/01/18 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeah, yeah… :)[2011/01/18 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: I notice the one option that is most often selected as ‘disallowed’ is ‘modify’.[2011/01/18 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And God also exists ;)[2011/01/18 15:35]  toBe Destiny: Open Sim coudl pretect IP more fully than does LL[2011/01/18 15:35]  toBe Destiny: protect*[2011/01/18 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “could”. Right.[2011/01/18 15:35]  TaraLi Jie: Not really, toBe…[2011/01/18 15:35]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: odd that’s the one I always allow[2011/01/18 15:35]  TaraLi Jie: Especially should you connect to a grid that allows ad-hoc users to join their grid.[2011/01/18 15:35]  Pip Torok: unfortunately the SL God _does_ exist[2011/01/18 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Extie, for an old reason… there used to be a bug allowing “modify” items to be fully copied with a rather simple script.[2011/01/18 15:35]  Mick Nerido: Sl needs to be profitable to survive[2011/01/18 15:36]  toBe Destiny: ok, let me restate, educationWorlds needs to be FERPA complaint and so the IP must have superdistribution principles so that all aspects of this issue is monitored by a system that has transparency[2011/01/18 15:36]  toBe Destiny: ..[2011/01/18 15:36]  Kasandra Morgan: I think the way they handled money here is what connects this place to the real world, making building a house in SL, not much different than creating a picture in RL[2011/01/18 15:36]  TaraLi Jie: FERPA?[2011/01/18 15:36]  Pip Torok: “even hardware has to eat!”[2011/01/18 15:36]  toBe Destiny: open sim has a ways to go[2011/01/18 15:36]  toBe Destiny: look it up[2011/01/18 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kasandra, actually it was sheer chance… but I don’t regret that choice. We wouldn’t be here otherwise :)[2011/01/18 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, what is a FERPA?[2011/01/18 15:36]  toBe Destiny: google[2011/01/18 15:37]  TaraLi Jie: And should we even use the term “IP”, especially if we mean “Intellectual Property”, as ideas aren’t exactly property in the same sense as concrete items.[2011/01/18 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: or is it more like an architect drawing up a blueprint or a 3D model? That could be valuable.[2011/01/18 15:37]  Mick Nerido: I don’t need a house it is just a fimular forn again[2011/01/18 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: Fat chance toBe – once opensim explodes, one day you’ll see a flood of people exporting what they think is *theirs* (I bought it danmmit!) use fairly sinple ways to export it to opensim (tens of thousands of inventory items for old time users) and thereby break the current IP controls Linden Lab uses to maintain a ‘somewhat’ profitatble business model.[2011/01/18 15:37]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html%5B2011/01/18 15:37]  toBe Destiny: http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html%5B2011/01/18 15:37]  toBe Destiny: ty[2011/01/18 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ideas, no, they aren’t; their implementation —physical or digital — is.[2011/01/18 15:37]  toBe Destiny: PlanetMiles[2011/01/18 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: OK I googled, but I’m still having trouble understanding the connection. . . .[2011/01/18 15:37]  toBe Destiny: so?[2011/01/18 15:37]  toBe Destiny: that is yrou problem[2011/01/18 15:37]  toBe Destiny: Ip and IA[2011/01/18 15:38]  toBe Destiny: Information Assurance[2011/01/18 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: But the house can serve a practical function. It can be a meeting place where you socialize with your friends. So it is not entirely useless.[2011/01/18 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Khannea, I’d be doing that already if I could figure out how. It’s non-trivial.[2011/01/18 15:38]  Kasandra Morgan: but you don’t NEED a house to chat here[2011/01/18 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: I can’t see me, I hope I have a full set of clothes on….. he hee[2011/01/18 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: I can give you the How To in 5 minutes. Whats your email?[2011/01/18 15:38]  Kasandra Morgan: we could all be standing around with default avatars[2011/01/18 15:38]  toBe Destiny: ..[2011/01/18 15:38]  toBe Destiny: Khannea Suntzu: Fat chance toBe – once opensim explodes, one day you’ll see a flood of people exporting what they think is *theirs* (I bought it danmmit!) use fairly sinple ways to export it to opensim (tens of thousands of inventory items for old time users) and thereby break the current IP controls Linden Lab uses to maintain a ‘somewhat’ profitatble business model.[2011/01/18 15:38]  toBe Destiny: ..[2011/01/18 15:38]  toBe Destiny: well let us look at this issue[2011/01/18 15:38]  toBe Destiny: ok?[2011/01/18 15:39]  Kasandra Morgan: there really is no need to rez a prim ever to talk[2011/01/18 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea, I hope you realise that LL does not NEED permissions to work; they need to rent sims :)[2011/01/18 15:39]  Pip Torok: i think at a basic and primitive level all humans need a house as shelter and warmth-giver[2011/01/18 15:39]  toBe Destiny: the notion of superdistribution can be found in wiki[2011/01/18 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But people willing to rent sims from LL don’t want theirr content to be copied by others :)[2011/01/18 15:39]  toBe Destiny: it provides a 100% monitored Internet[2011/01/18 15:39]  toBe Destiny: where all kinds of nice things can happen[2011/01/18 15:39]  Kasandra Morgan: yeah, but these aren’t real houses or real humans, your avatar will never get tired or hungry[2011/01/18 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s scary, toBe :)[2011/01/18 15:39]  Mick Nerido: My AV has no feelings when I am away[2011/01/18 15:39]  toBe Destiny: tis is not the Internet we have today[2011/01/18 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: We could, but I think there is a kind of social pressure that compells us to go beyond the default avvie look. Well..not all of us, but enough to make an economy.[2011/01/18 15:39]  toBe Destiny: it is a different one[2011/01/18 15:40]  toBe Destiny: a 3D Internet[2011/01/18 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes Gweyn and they rent sims to people who make money. If these people dont make money these people dont rent sims, capiche?[2011/01/18 15:40]  toBe Destiny: where rules can be set by local governance[2011/01/18 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, old philosophists used to say that we really just “need” three things: clothes, food, shelter[2011/01/18 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s a good point Khannea.[2011/01/18 15:40]  toBe Destiny: G L do you see the point[2011/01/18 15:40]  toBe Destiny: ?[2011/01/18 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Your avvie does have feelings while your away, because your friends impart feelings upon you:)[2011/01/18 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Khannea, but don’t blame LL for that :)[2011/01/18 15:40]  toBe Destiny: there is no reason for this to be scrary[2011/01/18 15:40]  Pip Torok: the old philosopers missed “a meaning to existence”[2011/01/18 15:41]  toBe Destiny: we are not talking about monitoring the current Internet[2011/01/18 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like teh concept, toBe; in fact I’m part of a group engaged in local governance in SL. They’re around since october 2004[2011/01/18 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: Land in SL has to be productive, or else the “owner” must be able and willing to indulge SL as a hobby.[2011/01/18 15:41]  toBe Destiny: i know[2011/01/18 15:41]  toBe Destiny: we ty[2011/01/18 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Avatars are needed for comparison to the environment you are exploring. Comparison of scale and also a social comparison with other avatars.[2011/01/18 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: A lot of my old favorite places have disappeared. :([2011/01/18 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And few wish to py US$300/monthly for a hobby, Zo :)[2011/01/18 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *pay[2011/01/18 15:41]  toBe Destiny: ok, so we see that a different “utility function” might make SL a palce better for actual innovation[2011/01/18 15:41]  TaraLi Jie: Well, quite a few would – if they felt they could.[2011/01/18 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Right. . . It’s a lot more expensive than putting up a website.[2011/01/18 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My point about the “needs” is just that we don’t really “need” much beyond those basic things.[2011/01/18 15:42]  Kasandra Morgan: at least one that doesn’t require something like a boat[2011/01/18 15:42]  toBe Destiny: and a means to renew the best parts of capitalism[2011/01/18 15:42]  Mick Nerido: Art good point[2011/01/18 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: So if ‘Needs’ do not underpin the Sl market…what does?[2011/01/18 15:42]  Mick Nerido: Desires[2011/01/18 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Perception of needs” …— a fancy word for “marketing”[2011/01/18 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: I dont blame anyone. I just want my world and my avatar to persist. I will go against TOS if Linden Lab can’t guarantee perpetuuity, and ironically if eniough people do that, the end result will be PRECVISELY that LL cant guarantee continuity of this reality.[2011/01/18 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: The Museum of Robots is gone. . . It was too expensive. A smaller version was supposed to be made, but it hasn’t happened. :([2011/01/18 15:43]  Pip Torok: if that US $300 stops you paying US$400 in RL .. youve save yourself greenback![2011/01/18 15:43]  toBe Destiny: ..listens for a while to see if there might be conversation in the direction of the Bridge to the Future groups’ missions[2011/01/18 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Aw I like the sound of a museum for robots:([2011/01/18 15:43]  Mick Nerido: If I die in RL what happens to my AV?[2011/01/18 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Khannea! It’s like “I threaten to commit suicide if you wish to kill me! Beware!”[2011/01/18 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: You can try and steer the discussion that way, Tobe:)[2011/01/18 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Mick: your avatar doesn’t get rezzed again.[2011/01/18 15:43]  toBe Destiny: i am trying ty[2011/01/18 15:43]  Kasandra Morgan: nothing, it just sits in their database[2011/01/18 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mick; actually it depends if you left a will or not[2011/01/18 15:44]  Mick Nerido: If I will it to another it will[2011/01/18 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: The Lindens did intervene to save Svarga BTW. That was an interesting exception to the usual trend of these thigns.[2011/01/18 15:44]  allforyou Triellis: poor little avi[2011/01/18 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: No I threaten to emigrate – and if I emigrate I will effectively erode the credibility of the Linden Lab business model.[2011/01/18 15:44]  Pip Torok: your Avie falls into the eternal bit-bucket[2011/01/18 15:44]  Kasandra Morgan: who would bother putting in their will, log on and delete my SL AV?[2011/01/18 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Go for it, Khannea 🙂 But leave us your address first!….[2011/01/18 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: When my primary dies, I hope someone else will take over the job of pupeteering me. At least until my artificial mind is up and running.[2011/01/18 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would, Kas :)[2011/01/18 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m wondering why they didn’t save any other sims…. Have they? Or only Svarga?[2011/01/18 15:45]  toBe Destiny: it is far too difficult, this why my group is suggesting that monitoring of a chat discussion might be used to move people to a copy of the sim , when there are more than one discussion taking place[2011/01/18 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you’ll have to set that up in advance, Extie :)[2011/01/18 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Svarga had particularly historical significance I think.[2011/01/18 15:45]  Mick Nerido: that would be a good friend[2011/01/18 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: Plus, there are tools that can backup MY avatar without me beig provably involved. I would just be in a sim, and someone backs up M<Y inventory. There have been cases where an avatar received porn of herself IRL from a stranger who backed up HER ENTIRE INVENTORY[2011/01/18 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: It will be done, Gwyn:)[2011/01/18 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)[2011/01/18 15:45]  toBe Destiny: then it might be possible to move away from conversation that is not (from one’s own point of view) productive and worth while[2011/01/18 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: And although it’s nice, Svarga is showing its age compared with some of the newer, very beautiful builds.[2011/01/18 15:45]  allforyou Triellis: there are companies on the iternet that do it now – closr your emils and stuff and let others know your dead oooo[2011/01/18 15:46]  Pip Torok: in my case ppl wd see that suddenly pip torok cd speak dutch![2011/01/18 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha[2011/01/18 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: yes, like Legacy Locker.[2011/01/18 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: LL should have bought and then saved Black Swan, they need a few base showplaces around that have stability.[2011/01/18 15:46]  toBe Destiny: the difficulty is in getting only those who wish to talk about something in a serious way, into the same place, and no one else[2011/01/18 15:46]  toBe Destiny: Legacy Locker?[2011/01/18 15:46]  toBe Destiny: ..listens[2011/01/18 15:47]  Kasandra Morgan: you could befriend people with similar interests and set a time[2011/01/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: interesting idea…[2011/01/18 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Legacy locker is where you can store all your passwords, and in the event of your death a trusted third party is then told how to access all your accounts.[2011/01/18 15:47]  Mick Nerido: pass the tourch[2011/01/18 15:47]  Pip Torok: its been solved, ToBe Destiny … it’s called “Thinkers”![2011/01/18 15:47]  toBe Destiny: talking moves you to the place where other are talking at that level[2011/01/18 15:47]  toBe Destiny: quality as well as topic[2011/01/18 15:47]  Catz Jewell: you can also put them in a trust[2011/01/18 15:47]  toBe Destiny: ty Pip[2011/01/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)[2011/01/18 15:47]  toBe Destiny: you are kind to me[2011/01/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pip’s always kind![2011/01/18 15:48]  toBe Destiny: i noticed[2011/01/18 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: What you say is very interesting, toBe, but not really on topic.[2011/01/18 15:48]  toBe Destiny: <s>[2011/01/18 15:48]  toBe Destiny: ok[2011/01/18 15:48]  toBe Destiny: could I make the case that it is on topic[2011/01/18 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie: Can you post the topic again? I was late getting here…[2011/01/18 15:48]  toBe Destiny: by making the connection?[2011/01/18 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: yes…[2011/01/18 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: NEEDLESS THINGS: In ‘The Cultural Contradiction of Captialism’, Daniel Bell explained how ours is an economy created not to feed our belly, but our lifestyle. Arguably, this reached its pinnacle with SL, where nothing you buy is essential to life, only lifestyle. What are the pros and cons of living in this kind of society?[2011/01/18 15:48]  Mick Nerido: It is if there is profit in it[2011/01/18 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: of course you may, tobe:)[2011/01/18 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: How many ways are there to actually make money in SL?[2011/01/18 15:49]  allforyou Triellis: pros its easier than going hunting[2011/01/18 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My argument, Art, is that what is deemed to be “essencial” and what is “lifestyle” is just a matter of time…[2011/01/18 15:49]  toBe Destiny: the need to the debunk capitalism as a perfect theory where so called “private interests” can do no harm and the public sector is fulled with fools[2011/01/18 15:49]  toBe Destiny: smiles[2011/01/18 15:49]  allforyou Triellis: much easier to go to grocery then hunt all day[2011/01/18 15:49]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: content creation and services[2011/01/18 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh toBe :)[2011/01/18 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hmmm the pros of living in this kind of society are that you can create a model of your fantasies and virtually inhabit it.[2011/01/18 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: countless![2011/01/18 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: On the topic – in less than fgive years whole industries in the real world will face extremely cheap and high quality mass production methods that will comnpletely bypass design, IP, oritginality. It wot just be china – any backalley can then violate intellectual property for a from then on explosively expanding range of articles. What will society do if for an ever increasig range of ‘stuff’ the money you spend on it is no longer a (provable) measure of social prestige?[2011/01/18 15:50]  Mick Nerido: Art good thought, trying out new ways to live[2011/01/18 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d add to that, you can create a SHAREABLE model, Art. Because I can create models of my fantasies in my head… :)[2011/01/18 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: Then *gasp* we wouldn’t know who is Inportant!!![2011/01/18 15:50]  Lem Skall: it’s really hard to tell even WHY we want more than just the essentials, let alone whether it is better or not[2011/01/18 15:50]  Pip Torok: one good thing is that you can choose your friends from a base of millions… can we do that IRL?[2011/01/18 15:51]  allforyou Triellis: it will take a lot longer[2011/01/18 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Like in Dawn Of The Dead Lem. The zombies ‘don’t know why [they are trying to get into the shopping mall] they just know they want to be in here’.[2011/01/18 15:51]  toBe Destiny: so where is the topic?[2011/01/18 15:51]  allforyou Triellis: and imagine the easy cheap life westerners will get from it[2011/01/18 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: Disney will make that technology illegal to use ;)[2011/01/18 15:52]  Lem Skall: extie, and is it a pro or a con if they get into the mall?[2011/01/18 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Disney. Right. *SMIRK*[2011/01/18 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: The topic is to explain why, since we need nothing in SL, there is an economy.[2011/01/18 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Once one’s basic needs are met, it seems that one next strives for happiness and or ‘meaning’ in their life. So RL ‘lifestyle’ is an attempt at that.[2011/01/18 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I can answer that Extie. . .[2011/01/18 15:52]  Pip Torok: think of it Lem … a zombie you’d want to hug/1[2011/01/18 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we’re just redefining the word “need” and adapting it to new things.[2011/01/18 15:52]  Amanda Endsleigh: but all of this just suggests that we are all going to play by the rules set up by LL and define necessity as animalistic basics . . .[2011/01/18 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: How can you sell or gift-exchange anything when everything is useless?[2011/01/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha now we’re going to talk about intrinsic value? :)[2011/01/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because that’s an easy one![2011/01/18 15:53]  Lem Skall: it’s the damn social nature of humans that makes us want a “lifestyle”[2011/01/18 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: Thee disney[2011/01/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Nothing* has intrinsic value :)[2011/01/18 15:53]  Pip Torok: ah but it stimulates you and is therefore not useless[2011/01/18 15:53]  Amanda Endsleigh: always a good starting point[2011/01/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, Amanda :)[2011/01/18 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: err, just a moment. . .[2011/01/18 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: There has always been a market for perceived quality over and above the market for survival goods.[2011/01/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The market *is* perceived value :)[2011/01/18 15:54]  Mick Nerido: Fashion[2011/01/18 15:54]  allforyou Triellis: Health care[2011/01/18 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: But I think this is that mistaken assumption ‘virtual=not real’. But this sofa has a practical function. I can sit on it. So it IS a sofa by any sensible definition. It has some value.[2011/01/18 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s just that what is perceived as valuable changes in time and place.[2011/01/18 15:54]  Pip Torok: btw “nothing” does delineate the space and time in which “nothing” exists …[2011/01/18 15:54]  Mick Nerido: exclusivity[2011/01/18 15:54]  allforyou Triellis: work all your life then sit in a house till you die[2011/01/18 15:54]  Lem Skall: Extie, no, because you only “wirtually sit” on it[2011/01/18 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: the sofa in SL has as much value as the sofa in thephysical world. The amount of money people are willing to pay for it .)[2011/01/18 15:55]  Lem Skall: virtually*[2011/01/18 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: No. I really am sat on this sofa.[2011/01/18 15:55]  allforyou Triellis: lol[2011/01/18 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The word “really” is useless in economics :)[2011/01/18 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, sometimes the market is for survival. and whereas that is a value, There is more to perceived quality than mere survival value.[2011/01/18 15:55]  Lem Skall: YOU are virtual[2011/01/18 15:55]  Pip Torok: yeah … mine’s really lumpy too[2011/01/18 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes actually I tend to feel the sofa after you log and it is warm afterwards[2011/01/18 15:55]  Amanda Endsleigh: all that we encounter is just a shared notion created by the meat in our heads- we never encounter the “Real”[2011/01/18 15:55]  Mick Nerido: A house here is like clothes a fashion statment[2011/01/18 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: very true, Amanda.[2011/01/18 15:56]  allforyou Triellis: i cant see that as sl is a hobby – summit to do[2011/01/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, even the notion of “survival has a value” depends on specific societies; and, of course, the value varies. Our own society, for instance, places a lot of value in that![2011/01/18 15:56]  allforyou Triellis: its not real[2011/01/18 15:56]  Pip Torok: but that value’s only there if you do survive ..[2011/01/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear, Amanda :)[2011/01/18 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/metaphor/do_want.jpeg%5B2011/01/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hehe ZO)[2011/01/18 15:56]  allforyou Triellis: art is now for money where is once was just paint on a cave wall[2011/01/18 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Anth![2011/01/18 15:57]  allforyou Triellis: who gave it worth[2011/01/18 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We did :)[2011/01/18 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: Calling anything a ‘hobby’ these days is a deprecating statement meant to devalue it. Maybe that was always the case. All pursuits are not hobbies.[2011/01/18 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: And that’s why we pay real money for virtual items.[2011/01/18 15:57]  Amanda Endsleigh: i think the crux of this is we mistake most of what we percieve day to day as “real” but it is just as transient as this place[2011/01/18 15:57]  allforyou Triellis: but why[2011/01/18 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Someone once said ‘real is that which, if you stop believing in it, does not go away’. But if we all stopped believing in SL and logged off, would it still exist? I mean *everyone*.[2011/01/18 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: SL is a silly hobby at 100K concurrent users. SL is an annoying, ridiculous bunch of weirdo’s and perverts at 1 million concurrent users. SL is a dangerous cult and will provoke questions in parliament at 10 million concurrent users. SL will be a major industry and the cornerstone of the new economy at 100 million users.[2011/01/18 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: Sod it[2011/01/18 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Amanda gets the award today….[2011/01/18 15:57]  Lem Skall: art is not for money, it’s to get laid and so it was in the cave[2011/01/18 15:57]  Pip Torok: “just paint on a wall” … thats the ultimate proof of SL’s value to us is that “just paint on the wall” so-called[2011/01/18 15:57]  allforyou Triellis: lmao yes religion your on the mark there[2011/01/18 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nope. Extie :)[2011/01/18 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: So it is not real:)[2011/01/18 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: The pursuit of quality of life through entertainment and interaction, should not be called a hobby I think.[2011/01/18 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not intrinsically real ;)[2011/01/18 15:58]  Mick Nerido: Sl is like a cave painting[2011/01/18 15:58]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Nothing is real; everything is permitted[2011/01/18 15:58]  Amanda Endsleigh: *claps* award . . . oh wait, for bing pretentious again[2011/01/18 15:58]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: or was it the other way around?[2011/01/18 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Mick. It’s valuable for *us* but to nobody else outside SL.[2011/01/18 15:58]  allforyou Triellis: keeps the masses in a state of equilibrium[2011/01/18 15:59]  Mick Nerido: It is in our heads but out htere also[2011/01/18 15:59]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I’m blond; I forget[2011/01/18 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I think it works both ways, T.[2011/01/18 15:59]  Pip Torok: so in efect SL and its prototypes are the earliest forms of enetertsinment[2011/01/18 15:59]  Amanda Endsleigh: the cave analogy could work here, but only if we concider who is creating the shadows on the wall[2011/01/18 15:59]  allforyou Triellis: sl i can compare to humans needing to believe[2011/01/18 15:59]  allforyou Triellis: in what or why i dont know but its been done for years[2011/01/18 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not *that* simple, Tarrah 😉 Things are conventionally real. For example, for all SL residents, a sofa made of pixels is valuable — but that’s just by convention; people outside SL don’t give it any value. So it has no real intrinsic value — just conventional value for us SL residents.[2011/01/18 16:00]  Pip Torok: Amanda … WE are creating the Rorschach blots from shadows[2011/01/18 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: We shouldn’t separate SL from other life pursuits as a separate category. It is one of many things people do to improve their perceived quality of life…. i.e. their happiness.[2011/01/18 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We do our own shadows, Amanda .)[2011/01/18 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: Consensual hallucination thriving on the ability OF A SELECT FEW to succumb to suspension of disbelief[2011/01/18 16:00]  Mick Nerido: We are always trying to understand why and how[2011/01/18 16:00]  Amanda Endsleigh: but this is quite different from needing to believe, because there is a “real” person behind each avi[2011/01/18 16:00]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I know that Gwyn, hence my ‘confusion'[2011/01/18 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: like the atomic world, yes :)[2011/01/18 16:00]  Mick Nerido: Are the auto av yet?[2011/01/18 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welllllllll Amanda… that is circular…. then you’ll have to define what is a “real person”[2011/01/18 16:01]  Amanda Endsleigh: interesting notion, Pip – so what then does the psychological test reveal?[2011/01/18 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: But very few things have their value 100% in the physical materials of which they are made. It is usually something ineffable like ‘design’ or ‘fashion’ or ‘artistic’ that gives somethng the bulk of its value.[2011/01/18 16:01]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I know that I’m just a collection of pixels energised by the fantasy of some 30-something idealist living in a flat in Aberdeen[2011/01/18 16:01]  Amanda Endsleigh: /me laughs happily[2011/01/18 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡[2011/01/18 16:01]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: but at the same time I have value; I exist[2011/01/18 16:01]  Pip Torok: in fact every single human believes something even though that something may never have a name[2011/01/18 16:01]  Amanda Endsleigh: i’ve been trying to figure out the definition of real human for years[2011/01/18 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most humans believe, for instance, that they exist :)[2011/01/18 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Amanda: perhaps that should give you a hint…?[2011/01/18 16:02]  Pip Torok: (gwyn, i spoke to Moon about that idea sometime ago)[2011/01/18 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: deluded silly humans[2011/01/18 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: :)[2011/01/18 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. that you’ve been at it “for years”?[2011/01/18 16:02]  Mick Nerido: or the universe exists because i precieve it[2011/01/18 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: yah well see me take 90% of humanity serious as anything else as agglomerations of intestinal bacteria.[2011/01/18 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (oh nice one, Pip!)[2011/01/18 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: To me most humans ‘deon’t even exist'[2011/01/18 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Khannea, because that’s what most of us are… :)[2011/01/18 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: T, not only is SL itself a product of collaborative creation, but so is each self. You were created by the social interactions between yourself and your aquaintances, as were all of us. Everyone here roleplays me to some extent.[2011/01/18 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: Trust me, I have sexual fantasies about you and your metatar – yiou exist for me.[2011/01/18 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes in the sense that what you say affects us.[2011/01/18 16:03]  Amanda Endsleigh: nice sociological perspective Extropia[2011/01/18 16:03]  Pip Torok: humans may not exist but their social constructs (“per-sona”) do[2011/01/18 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Thanks:)[2011/01/18 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: We don’t get anywhere when we fall back into the trap of solipsism while arguing. We have to just take as a given our own existence and that of others or we can’t get anywhere….. just sayin….[2011/01/18 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: I am going to do a Thinkers on solipsism, since it always comes up anyway:)[2011/01/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Pip, but they’re merely that — constructs. We just conveniently label them to make conversation easier.[2011/01/18 16:04]  Luisa Bourgoin: it’s not a matter of existing or not. I’m more concerned about exstinction[2011/01/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes we can, Art 🙂 hehe[2011/01/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Solipsism, by contrast, doesn’t lead far ;)[2011/01/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh goodie, Extie :)[2011/01/18 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh I am good at being intensely non sollipsist. Trust me, I am REALLY good, ask Ivy. But what the fuck can I do with jkust 1350 grams of brain?[2011/01/18 16:04]  Pip Torok: yes but without that construct our minds wd have nothing to latch onto[2011/01/18 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And perhaps that is a problem, not a solution, Pip :)[2011/01/18 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we digress..[2011/01/18 16:05]  Pip Torok: perhaps!! :-))[2011/01/18 16:05]  toBe Destiny: nods[2011/01/18 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m happy to stick with the notion that things have as much value as we give them value,[2011/01/18 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: either in the physical world[2011/01/18 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: We need *wayyyy* more mind to make our bold ambitions come alive.[2011/01/18 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: orin digital one[2011/01/18 16:05]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Khanni, Extiee, Ivy, I know you all believe in me but I fear some here have seriously cracked lenses[2011/01/18 16:05]  Amanda Endsleigh: but back to the question- from another perspective- doesn’t SL encapsulate the pinicle of hedonistic self-serving capitalism?[2011/01/18 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh :)[2011/01/18 16:06]  Mick Nerido: We will build bigger brains to preceive more[2011/01/18 16:06]  Pip Torok: perhaps the solution is the sleep we have for 8 hours a day![2011/01/18 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Increasingly, Gwyn, it is getting harder to tell where ‘the physical’ ends and the ‘digital’ begins.[2011/01/18 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would tentatively answer that with “yes, for many”, Amanda…[2011/01/18 16:06]  TaraLi Jie: Or does it just simulate it, Amanda?[2011/01/18 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see that as a very good sign, Extie![2011/01/18 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: So, why do people buy stuff they don’t need? 1) Status Identifier 2) Sensual activation 3) Search for Meaning. That’s a start of a list, No?[2011/01/18 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No no Art. All those reasons are good reasons for “needing” something,.[2011/01/18 16:06]  Pip Torok: ArtCrash are your SURE we don’t need it?[2011/01/18 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we cannot say “they buy things they don0’t need”[2011/01/18 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: What about all those freebie stores?[2011/01/18 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can say, “they buy things they THINK they need”,[2011/01/18 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Dont worry Tarrah. I am a user and I have run a diagnostic and know that you are a user, and so is Gwyn and Trophy. But most people here *really* don’t know they are NPC’s. You know how cruel it is to actually tell them? “You are fiction” … that is like mean, love…[2011/01/18 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but they do the same with physical goods.[2011/01/18 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think need refers to survival … in its basic sense that is.[2011/01/18 16:07]  Amanda Endsleigh: (too bold for a first time joiner?)[2011/01/18 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Reefers?[2011/01/18 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha[2011/01/18 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: then we’re back to clothing, shelter, food[2011/01/18 16:07]  Kasandra Morgan: if need refers to survival than no one needs anything in SL[2011/01/18 16:07]  TaraLi Jie: No such thing, Amanda.[2011/01/18 16:07]  Luisa Bourgoin: partially virtual consumism can act as a replacement for real world spending[2011/01/18 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I am an NPC?[2011/01/18 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: No you are a user Trophy[2011/01/18 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: Power user in fact[2011/01/18 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And if need refers to survival, 99.9999999% of all we own in RL isnot needed.[2011/01/18 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Ah KK. Is that good?[2011/01/18 16:08]  TaraLi Jie: Well, let’s look at the price we pay for stuff in SL… damn near *NOTHING* for a lot of the stuff we actually pay for…[2011/01/18 16:08]  Mick Nerido: No one “needs a car, boat in RL either[2011/01/18 16:08]  Pip Torok: that always intrigues me, that ppl say “they buy things that they think they need, but -I_ know better!” …[2011/01/18 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes… You have root privileges into my heart :)[2011/01/18 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Pip yes :D[2011/01/18 16:08]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: /me laughs[2011/01/18 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Khannea :)[2011/01/18 16:08]  TaraLi Jie: chroot 777 /dev/heart[2011/01/18 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: A coat is a need, a finely designed coat is not. Food is a need, gourmet food is not. etc. etc.[2011/01/18 16:09]  Kasandra Morgan: actually, you can need a car, if you live somewhere where there is no source of food in walking distance[2011/01/18 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Art![2011/01/18 16:09]  Luisa Bourgoin: chmod (!)[2011/01/18 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: I could point at least 3 parts of K’s body *everybody* has *root* access to[2011/01/18 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, I was just thinking a lot of stuff in SL is overpriced.[2011/01/18 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: What about clothes? Since the rules forbid nudity anywhere but adult areas and your own private place (um..I think) does that make clothes essential items?[2011/01/18 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Not that it stops Rhi:)[2011/01/18 16:09]  TaraLi Jie: Welllll… You could have a skin that has clothes baked into it…[2011/01/18 16:09]  Kasandra Morgan: nope, cause you start off with several sets of clothes[2011/01/18 16:09]  Pip Torok: ex … thereIS the warmth/cold argument for clothes!![2011/01/18 16:09]  TaraLi Jie: Be both naked and clothed at the same time.[2011/01/18 16:09]  Amanda Endsleigh: but don’t we have a psychological need for items to express our identity or belonging with a particular group[2011/01/18 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If economists are right, Zo, the price is *exactly* right — it’s what consumers are willing to pay and producers are willing to earn :)[2011/01/18 16:09]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: yes but we have nothing against Rh[2011/01/18 16:10]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: *Rhi[2011/01/18 16:10]  Mick Nerido: clothes is fashion[2011/01/18 16:10]  Kasandra Morgan: I agree Amanda[2011/01/18 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Rhi is great![2011/01/18 16:10]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: that said, neither does Rhi[2011/01/18 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Amanda, yes, but that is not a survival need[2011/01/18 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: /me laughs! “Economists?” :D[2011/01/18 16:10]  Amanda Endsleigh: what we buy into is the need to have the ones which a marketer presents[2011/01/18 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, those guys that believe they can predict the future, Zo… 😉 😉 ;)[2011/01/18 16:10]  Luisa Bourgoin: didn’t zob featured a set of clothes which had been made from skin textures?[2011/01/18 16:10]  Mick Nerido: You need to look good to be accepted[2011/01/18 16:10]  Amanda Endsleigh: i don’t know, Gweneth[2011/01/18 16:10]  Pip Torok: for example its possible to protect the vital bits from cold yet leave the naughty-bits visible![2011/01/18 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, I still have those. They got me branded as a witch, though. :P[2011/01/18 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the answer to Extie’s basic question is why do we buy things we don’t need is ” To maximise the QUality of our life experience”.[2011/01/18 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just think about it; can you imagine someone with no external signs of being an individual but still act like one?[2011/01/18 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I like that, Art.[2011/01/18 16:11]  Pip Torok: youre right, gwyn[2011/01/18 16:11]  Amanda Endsleigh: look at those who dissasociate from group behaviour- they are usually labelled as psychologically ill[2011/01/18 16:11]  TaraLi Jie: Hum… So Zobeid weighs the same as a duck.[2011/01/18 16:11]  Kasandra Morgan: the names would be an extenal side[2011/01/18 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: I shouldn’t make fun of economists. But a lot of store owners in SL slept through their economics classes apparently.[2011/01/18 16:11]  Luisa Bourgoin: habits .. it’s the acting that makes us individuals[2011/01/18 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, I agree, Art. We create a set of ideas on what we perceive to be a life experience with high quality, and strive to buy things to achieve that.[2011/01/18 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (quite true, Zo!!)[2011/01/18 16:12]  Pip Torok: amanda … the cross awaits those ppl![2011/01/18 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Pursuit of Quality is an interesting concept. It is basically the topic of the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence…. remember that book anyone?[2011/01/18 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*[2011/01/18 16:12]  TaraLi Jie: /me raises his head…[2011/01/18 16:12]  Pip Torok: yes![2011/01/18 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Heard about it, not read it.[2011/01/18 16:12]  Kasandra Morgan: although some people think that a higher price means better quality and are more likely to buy something that’s high than cheap[2011/01/18 16:12]  TaraLi Jie: Yep, been a while, but yep.[2011/01/18 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t forget the power of marketing :)[2011/01/18 16:12]  Kasandra Morgan: the other day I had someone tell me, “I’d never wear free clothes”[2011/01/18 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: *Smiles for the snapshot*[2011/01/18 16:13]  Pip Torok: and there was a tie-up with the Tao, as I recall[2011/01/18 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: The author of the Zen…etc book posited that ALL of our day to day interactions we driven by the pursuit of Quality.[2011/01/18 16:13]  TaraLi Jie: Zen Shibari?[2011/01/18 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: I like free stuff, myself.[2011/01/18 16:13]  Pip Torok: kas … that can be solved by giving ME money for those clothes! ;-))[2011/01/18 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He was an optimist; he ruled out the power of marketing. But in general, he has pretty good insights.[2011/01/18 16:13]  Mick Nerido: Free is good[2011/01/18 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: “free” has never really defined a degree of quality[2011/01/18 16:14]  Kasandra Morgan: yeah, for me it’s more about the quality of the item than the cost[2011/01/18 16:14]  Kasandra Morgan: I try on all the free clothes I come across[2011/01/18 16:14]  Kasandra Morgan: and if I don’t like them I simply delete them[2011/01/18 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my case, I’m more frivolous; I buy what I like lol[2011/01/18 16:14]  TaraLi Jie: Various definitions of “free” doesn’t help, either.[2011/01/18 16:14]  Mick Nerido: generic vs brand name[2011/01/18 16:14]  Pip Torok: true … but longevity and durability are qualities as well[2011/01/18 16:14]  Kasandra Morgan: but then it comes back to status, if you are wearing free clothes people think you are new[2011/01/18 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Marketing just produces the object of our pursuit of quality.[2011/01/18 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Hamlet Au once argued that the economy where you spend Lindens is tiny compared to the much larger ‘gift’ economy where people exchange stuff for free.[2011/01/18 16:14]  Mick Nerido: Nothing wears out in SL[2011/01/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: perceptions, perceptions… :)[2011/01/18 16:15]  Mick Nerido: Except we get tired of it[2011/01/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and quoting Hamlet as an authority….[2011/01/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shakes head*[2011/01/18 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie, I think that might have been true in the past, but is no longer the case.[2011/01/18 16:15]  Luisa Bourgoin: I believe that … which is rare for anything Hamlet states :)[2011/01/18 16:15]  Lem Skall: Kas, so what if people think you’re new?[2011/01/18 16:15]  Pip Torok: and dont forget … when you mixnmatch different items you multiply your range of clothes![2011/01/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes![2011/01/18 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Not true any more? Really?[2011/01/18 16:15]  Luisa Bourgoin: Mick, stuff wear out as in “out of fashion”[2011/01/18 16:16]  Kasandra Morgan: it’s insulting when you’re av is seven years old[2011/01/18 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Notice that the quantity of Freebie stores is declining in general.[2011/01/18 16:16]  Luisa Bourgoin: and technology developes, making old stuff … look outdated[2011/01/18 16:16]  Mick Nerido: but they dont fall appart[2011/01/18 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Could something ‘wear out’ in the sense that a viewer update means it no longer functions?[2011/01/18 16:16]  Mick Nerido: No entropy here[2011/01/18 16:16]  Kasandra Morgan: it becomes one of those I WAS AROUND WHEN THERE WERE STILL TELEHUBS! moments[2011/01/18 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Is the quantity of for-profit stores declining?[2011/01/18 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: hehehehe those were the day right?[2011/01/18 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is human.-generated entropy: we obsolete things :)[2011/01/18 16:16]  Lem Skall: Kas, so it is vanity?[2011/01/18 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: IS SL DECLINING?? OMG!![2011/01/18 16:16]  Kasandra Morgan: nah, I think they’ve increased[2011/01/18 16:16]  Amanda Endsleigh: then perhaps the question here is how do each of us construct identity in a pixel universe[2011/01/18 16:16]  Kasandra Morgan: oh, I can’t even pretend I’m not vain[2011/01/18 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Viewer update obsolescence is a fear of many many builders.[2011/01/18 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Zoe: NOOOOOO![2011/01/18 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes, but to compensate for that, the few remaining ones sell more :)[2011/01/18 16:17]  Mick Nerido: Capatilism needs opsolesence[2011/01/18 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: True to a degree, Mick![2011/01/18 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Ohh, consolidation. . . .[2011/01/18 16:17]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: /me stops 2 animations for Mothercard Warden[2011/01/18 16:17]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Capitalism has a generation at most, IMHO[2011/01/18 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: that might explain the reluctance to adopt Viewer 2…. ;)[2011/01/18 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha[2011/01/18 16:17]  Pip Torok: SL cant be declining when there are so many imitators … :)[2011/01/18 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … many failing ;)[2011/01/18 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: what succeeds it, T? Do we have an inkling?[2011/01/18 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s not confuse ‘Capitalism’ with ‘Commerce’ as they aren’t the same thing.[2011/01/18 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: SL is actually growing at a decent rate… however when measured against some of the grotesquely inflated aspects of growth in some other niches, yes SL is measured to be a total failure… and that’s just stupid.[2011/01/18 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: “Welcome to Ivalde, a division of General Clothing Corp.”[2011/01/18 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Art!![2011/01/18 16:18]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I have a few ideas[2011/01/18 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very good point, Khannea![2011/01/18 16:18]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: maybe something along the lines of the Venus Project[2011/01/18 16:18]  Mick Nerido: Are they selling stock?[2011/01/18 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In Sl? no[2011/01/18 16:18]  TaraLi Jie: We always have problems with people comparing growth badly.[2011/01/18 16:18]  allforyou Triellis: we do ?[2011/01/18 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm :)[2011/01/18 16:19]  Mick Nerido: we should make a virtual stock market to try new ideas and make money[2011/01/18 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There were several….[2011/01/18 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I believe LL outlawed them.[2011/01/18 16:19]  Luisa Bourgoin: perhaps Capitalism and Insane Growth Charts are the same thing[2011/01/18 16:19]  allforyou Triellis: sl pension funds for old avis?[2011/01/18 16:19]  TaraLi Jie: Most still think that a pond that’s half-full after a month of a bacteria that divides every day, will take another month to become full.[2011/01/18 16:19]  Mick Nerido: They would get their cut[2011/01/18 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Mick, there WAS a virtual stock market in SL. But there was too much corruption involved so LL nuked it.[2011/01/18 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Tara 😉 ;)[2011/01/18 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I still get my L$500 allowance![2011/01/18 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, several in fact, not just one[2011/01/18 16:20]  Kasandra Morgan: I thought it was 300 now[2011/01/18 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Same here, Zo :)[2011/01/18 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: How much? All I get is $50 per week![2011/01/18 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It is. Oldbies get larger pensions ;)[2011/01/18 16:20]  TaraLi Jie: How about this – the reason we have so much trouble with capitalism, is that we have this habit of only measuring profit in terms of cash.[2011/01/18 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, nice one, Tara![2011/01/18 16:20]  Pip Torok: agree![2011/01/18 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s just because it’s a convenient measure, that’s all[2011/01/18 16:20]  Mick Nerido: Sl should have an elected government also[2011/01/18 16:21]  Luisa Bourgoin: there is no other scale of measurement popular, at the moment[2011/01/18 16:21]  allforyou Triellis: also like sound of that[2011/01/18 16:21]  TaraLi Jie: What we *really* have is an accountant culture, not a capitalist culture.[2011/01/18 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha! we tried that in the summer of 2004, Mick :)[2011/01/18 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I vote for Gwyn.[2011/01/18 16:21]  Pip Torok: “price of everything and value of nothing” a la oscar Wilde[2011/01/18 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No no, Extie lol[2011/01/18 16:21]  TaraLi Jie: *nods* Ignoring the difference between price and value.[2011/01/18 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: We have trouble with capitalism because it doesn’t focus on anything but stock price these days and good long term successful business models are irrelevant .[2011/01/18 16:21]  allforyou Triellis: few years ago book called summit like “tiger thats does not see the world through figures”[2011/01/18 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now I’d love to hear about that difference, Tara…. :)[2011/01/18 16:22]  TaraLi Jie: *GRINS* Here’s a simple comparison, I’m stealing from Starship Troopers…[2011/01/18 16:22]  Mick Nerido: We all should own a piece of SL[2011/01/18 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: The stock market is dynamically unstable.[2011/01/18 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘the only good bug is a dead bug!’.[2011/01/18 16:23]  allforyou Triellis: lmao[2011/01/18 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: It leads to a lot of chronic problems.[2011/01/18 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: SL would be much more vulnerable if it were a publicly held company.[2011/01/18 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie, that’s the only quote I remember![2011/01/18 16:23]  Lem Skall: Extie, ST?[2011/01/18 16:23]  TaraLi Jie: The price of a good business suit was, in the 20’s, about $20. It’s now over $800 – but then again, the price of an ounce of gold was $20 in the 20s, and is now over $800…[2011/01/18 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ARt, yes; I wonder if this new trend is catching…. and what that means for the future stock market[2011/01/18 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Capitalism is a great system. IF it were based on somewhat less fickle foundations. However capitalism ius based on a nonrenewable set of growth curves and industrial entities and mninaeral resources, which all reflects in a nothing shot of deceitful financial and monetary union, and a lkudicrous and pervasive iflation.[2011/01/18 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘Let me tell you something, I am from puerto Rico and I say KILL ‘EM ALL!!’.[2011/01/18 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually it’s now over $1400.[2011/01/18 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡[2011/01/18 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-1-three-beliefs%5B2011/01/18 16:23]  TaraLi Jie: The price changed – the value – what people want in exchange, has not changed nearly as much.[2011/01/18 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: And I that reminds me, I need to go sell all that bullion. . .[2011/01/18 16:24]  Mick Nerido: Capitalism beats everthing else so far[2011/01/18 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: History has shown that Capitalism ONLY works if anti trust mechanisms and regulation is enforced.[2011/01/18 16:24]  Pip Torok: capitalism is like a star-actor .. its only as good as its last performance[2011/01/18 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘they’ll keep fighting…AND THEY’LL WIN!!!'[2011/01/18 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait wait…. are you counting with inflation on that statement, Tara?[2011/01/18 16:24]  TaraLi Jie: Inflation is based on price, not value.[2011/01/18 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Capitalism is a powerful idea that works very well for solving certain classes of problems. And as happens with most such ideas, people become enthralled with it and try applying it to *everything*.[2011/01/18 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: There is no idea that solves everything.[2011/01/18 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Capitalism is GREAT. were it we did actually have free markets which we do NOT[2011/01/18 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Inflation is caused by a lack of faith in the money system.[2011/01/18 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right; what I meant is, if you adjust the price by inflation, do you still get the same results?[2011/01/18 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Bullshit[2011/01/18 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: what is, sweets?[2011/01/18 16:25]  Pip Torok: inflation/deflation is money chasing goods or vice versa[2011/01/18 16:25]  Mick Nerido: Capitalism works because it take into account the basic human b=needs and does not ignor them[2011/01/18 16:25]  TaraLi Jie: Inflation is generally caused by the government printing more money, inflating the money supply.[2011/01/18 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Commerce takes human needs into account, not Capitalism[2011/01/18 16:26]  TaraLi Jie: Pretty much, Gwyneth…[2011/01/18 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: /me smiles[2011/01/18 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I remember doing some math with my father, when he complained that books were too expensive these days; when we adjusted for inflation and how much he earned in the 1960s, he was pretty much convinced that books were FAR more expensive back then![2011/01/18 16:26]  Mick Nerido: Some inflation is good defayion is worse[2011/01/18 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: Capitalism is only concerned with growth of capital.[2011/01/18 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that’s one type of inflation, Tara; there is another 😉 )[2011/01/18 16:26]  Pip Torok: makes sense gwyn especially before the printing Press!! ;)[2011/01/18 16:26]  TaraLi Jie: *nods* The value of goods does tend to go down, as new ways of producing those goods are found that are easier and better.[2011/01/18 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly!!!![2011/01/18 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.[2011/01/18 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: is inflation more or less of a problem in SL?[2011/01/18 16:27]  Mick Nerido: You need capital and people to make anything[2011/01/18 16:27]  TaraLi Jie: The value of an item *TENDS* towards the labor needed to create it.[2011/01/18 16:27]  Kasandra Morgan: you know, I was thinking it would be after all this time[2011/01/18 16:27]  Kasandra Morgan: but it isn’t[2011/01/18 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Capitalism is good at providing things that individuals want for themselves.[2011/01/18 16:27]  TaraLi Jie: The price is often not very well connected to the value.[2011/01/18 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: what is not better?[2011/01/18 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: If you want to study inflation, you should study what happened in Brasil. How they got rid of inflation. It is an interesting study of ‘faith’ and ‘trust’ and nothing else.[2011/01/18 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We actually have deflation…. due to a huge pressure upon content creators to release more things with higher quality at lower prices :)[2011/01/18 16:27]  Kasandra Morgan: in games inflation would be a huge issue by now, but prices are pretty much the same as when I started[2011/01/18 16:27]  TaraLi Jie: *nods* I have looked at it, ArtCrash.[2011/01/18 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Art[2011/01/18 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: And that’s why the USA spends so much more on pet products every year than on space exploration.[2011/01/18 16:28]  Luisa Bourgoin: will we still defend capitalism, if all values are measured in Yuan?[2011/01/18 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: Right. However what we have as a system is totally founded by a resource that will fall away totally (oil) and another resource that will in mere decades asymp;totically approach zerio (human labor). Long before than we will have all ditched capitalism in an orgy of blood.[2011/01/18 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Things are cheaper in SL today, Kas — and quality has increased several times[2011/01/18 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa: heh!![2011/01/18 16:28]  Amanda Endsleigh: Yay orgies of blood![2011/01/18 16:28]  Luisa Bourgoin: at least, the Yuan will be more stable . .. less dept[2011/01/18 16:29]  TaraLi Jie: Will it, Luisa?[2011/01/18 16:29]  toBe Destiny: how do we move the discussion to the next level, 2b wonders[2011/01/18 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Hopefully cheap nanofactory blood[2011/01/18 16:29]  allforyou Triellis: mmmmm[2011/01/18 16:29]  Kasandra Morgan: there was a time when the There players came over and the price of things went up, then came over with their wallets in their hand and no intention of rezzing a prim so they’d buy anything[2011/01/18 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, Khannea; as soon as you realise that all things like “value” and “price” are totally arbitrarily set, we’ll just come up with new ways of defining them. I mean, we’re not on the Gold Standard any longer, and the economy hasn’t collapsed (yet!)[2011/01/18 16:29]  TaraLi Jie: After all, the Ruble was fairly stable – at least on the outside of Russia. Inside, it was less so, because the internal and external values of the Ruble weren’t really connected.[2011/01/18 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Nanofactories are a fantasy, Khannea. That Mark Plus says so.[2011/01/18 16:30]  [ssb] Currency Converter 1.03: whispers: Type the value to be converted followed by the currency symbol and a question mark into chat. Example: 500L$?[2011/01/18 16:30]  toBe Destiny: i see that the discusion now is at two levels, one about the true-ism that are memetically moved about, and then also there are some intention to look into the future in a open and positive way[2011/01/18 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Here is a picture of a nanotechnology lab: http://www.ethlife.ethz.ch/archive_articles/080625_Zusammenarbeit_IBM_ETH/080625_Zusammenarbeit_IBM_l?hires%5B2011/01/18 16:30]  TaraLi Jie: 72US$?[2011/01/18 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Nanofactories are not needed to get to 50% unemployment. http://www.thelightsinthetunnel.com/%5B2011/01/18 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn: I would have to disagree with your statement that things are chearper in SL today. My observation is that the different ‘markets’ have stabilized their price ranges, and there are fewer price outliers in any particular type of good or service.[2011/01/18 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Well the one thing that is valuable in RL AND SL is time. And ours is almost up. So any closing statements on the economy of needless things?[2011/01/18 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They’re not WAY cheaper, Art. Hmm. That reminds me, a friend of mine is doing her PhD on prices in SL…[2011/01/18 16:31]  Luisa Bourgoin: automation let’s me hope for 100% unemployment …. imagine all product getting fabricated without manual labor[2011/01/18 16:31]  TaraLi Jie: Perhaps, Luisa – but then – What does everyone *DO*?[2011/01/18 16:31]  toBe Destiny: good night all[2011/01/18 16:31]  TaraLi Jie: Night, toBe.[2011/01/18 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: night![2011/01/18 16:31]  allforyou Triellis: night[2011/01/18 16:32]  Mick Nerido: 100% consumer society[2011/01/18 16:32]  Lem Skall: willautomation create also entertainment?[2011/01/18 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: Current occupation: slacker[2011/01/18 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up![2011/01/18 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: good night toBE[2011/01/18 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A typical example, Art — you used to get a two-piece outfit in 2005 for, say, L$250. Nowadays, for that amount, you actually get some 10 or 15 items belonging to the same outfit.[2011/01/18 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Nanofactories are not a fantasy.[2011/01/18 16:32]  Pip Torok: they dont DO, Tara … they BE .. ! :-))[2011/01/18 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: GAME ON FOR UTOPIA…

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