THINKERS DECEMBER 21 2010: RIP DP

Extie and Ari at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers![2010/12/21 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Sure let r rip[2010/12/21 15:32]  Archmage Atlantis: We’re going in tonight Lem,[2010/12/21 15:32]  Archmage Atlantis: Prepared[2010/12/21 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: This week the topic for discussion is…RIP DP…[2010/12/21 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: I see you censored me last meeting?[2010/12/21 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Digital People do not die, they just stop logging in. But does this prevent closure, with loved-ones never knowing if their friend is truly lost or just taking a long break? Do we all have a duty to report on the death of the person behind the avatar?[2010/12/21 15:32]  Archmage Atlantis: to face[2010/12/21 15:32]  Archmage Atlantis: the DeathStar[2010/12/21 15:32]  Lem Skall: going in to what?[2010/12/21 15:33]  Archmage Atlantis: Does Lem = Leonard?[2010/12/21 15:33]  Lem Skall: ok, let’s say I’m Leonard[2010/12/21 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Going in full throttle just like Beggars’ Canyon back home, by the sound of things, Lem.[2010/12/21 15:33]  Lem Skall: whoa, I must be totally out of it today, I don’t understand anything[2010/12/21 15:34]  Lem Skall: what’s the Beggar’s Canyon?[2010/12/21 15:34]  Arisia Vita: Star Wars[2010/12/21 15:34]  Lem Skall: ah[2010/12/21 15:34]  Archmage Atlantis: Amy Fairafowler understands[2010/12/21 15:34]  Lem Skall: now, who’s Amy?[2010/12/21 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey Aeble.[2010/12/21 15:35]  Lem Skall: I would say that whoever dies has an obligation to post that to SL[2010/12/21 15:35]  Aebleskiver Thibedeau: hi Extropia[2010/12/21 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: How do you post if you are dead?[2010/12/21 15:35]  Lem Skall: Extie, EXACTLY[2010/12/21 15:36]  Archmage Atlantis: From another universe, Lem, silliy……or sorry, Ex[2010/12/21 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: This actually bothers me a bit. The idea that one day I will log out…and not log back in and my friends will be left wondering if I am OK or what happened.[2010/12/21 15:37]  GNE Greene: Post-mortem auto-post?[2010/12/21 15:37]  Archmage Atlantis: That is a good topic, Extropia[2010/12/21 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: I’d absolutely make arrangements if I found my meatserver started lagging… but then againa s opposed to most here *I* am a supernatural spirit and I can’t die. I just take over another body.[2010/12/21 15:37]  Lem Skall: Extie, you’re dead every time you log out[2010/12/21 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: on the other hand, your friends have already met someone close in virtual world who has disappeared (for one reason or another). Disappearing from the net does not have strong emotional charge as getting to know someone you cared about died.[2010/12/21 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: But equally, if it is known primary A is dead and I subsequently appear, puppeteered by primary B…people might think ‘hey that is not really Extie’. Which they might do, if they do not know I transferred.[2010/12/21 15:39]  Archmage Atlantis: Dead, really????….Extie exits in my thougts many times when I am not on line[2010/12/21 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: What Lem said reminds me of a question Hoffstadter posed: Do characters in stories that are not being read exist?[2010/12/21 15:40]  xxNicolexx Karu: they exist of course[2010/12/21 15:40]  Archmage Atlantis: Does a bear who farts in the forest make a sound?[2010/12/21 15:41]  Lem Skall: Extie, btw, you should read a book I’m reading now: “The Eyre Affair” by Jasper Fforde[2010/12/21 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes it does, Arch.[2010/12/21 15:41]  GNE Greene: I remember someone who said that his chronic pain wouldn’t be much of a problem after two or three years. After he died I realised what he’d meant…[2010/12/21 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey Rhi:)[2010/12/21 15:41]  Archmage Atlantis: Disagree, EX[2010/12/21 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: hiya Rhi[2010/12/21 15:42]  Lem Skall: hi Rhi[2010/12/21 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Ivy[2010/12/21 15:42]  Archmage Atlantis: The gas released creates a vibration[2010/12/21 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Lem[2010/12/21 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: The thing about dying when I log off…To what extent is that true?[2010/12/21 15:42]  GNE Greene: You are arguably creating the virtual world in which book characters exist by reading the book, so, between readings they are logged out?[2010/12/21 15:42]  Lem Skall: it may be a silent fart[2010/12/21 15:42]  Archmage Atlantis: in the surrounding air, or other meia[2010/12/21 15:42]  Archmage Atlantis: *media[2010/12/21 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: extropia, well, you can alwys log back on; that’s a difference[2010/12/21 15:43]  Archmage Atlantis: Yet is no other but the bear is aware of it[2010/12/21 15:43]  Archmage Atlantis: it is not sound[2010/12/21 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And reincarnation is a conscious, voluntry choice in SL[2010/12/21 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: It would even be scarier if my primary logged in, in a few years after no having bothered with SL and to her intense amazement would find me having a career in clothes sales and real estate. I wonder if she could sue for my money?[2010/12/21 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: But how can you know when I can NOT log back in?[2010/12/21 15:44]  Lem Skall: now, what exactly are we worrying about? the wellness of the primary or whether we will ever see the avatar again?[2010/12/21 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: What is the topic? How changing avatars is like death?[2010/12/21 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Both?[2010/12/21 15:45]  Lem Skall: Wxtie, pick one[2010/12/21 15:45]  Lem Skall: Extie[2010/12/21 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: …Anything remotely related to digital people and death, Rhi.[2010/12/21 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: The openinf question was…[2010/12/21 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Digital People do not die, they just stop logging in. But does this prevent closure, with loved-ones never knowing if their friend is truly lost or just taking a long break? Do we all have a duty to report on the death of the person behind the avatar?[2010/12/21 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: for us here, unpopular thing to say, but probably the latter[2010/12/21 15:45]  GNE Greene: I think a primary somewhere would be paying for the storage and processor costs to rei-ify you. :)[2010/12/21 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i c, Extropia; well Elia and Auguste likeneds being banned from the sim tht was their only sim to a death[2010/12/21 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Gwyn![2010/12/21 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: if the original primary died, but the av was taken over by someone else, taking the role perfectly, one might never know anything tragic happened[2010/12/21 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi! sorry for being so late….[2010/12/21 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: hiya Gwyn![2010/12/21 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: No worries dear:)[2010/12/21 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rumours of my death are probably exaggerated… ;)[2010/12/21 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ivy, well, there should be differences, however subtle[2010/12/21 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Although I agree with you, as there are loads of people who think i’m somebody else[2010/12/21 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: The roleplay need not be perfect. None of you know me perfectly well. It only need be good enough to stand up to your model of my self.[2010/12/21 15:47]  GNE Greene: I remember a proped model of a developing, trained, Artificial Intelligence, that had a “God Hole” in it, though which a human watched and gave advice…[2010/12/21 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s highly unprobable hypothetical situation :)[2010/12/21 15:47]  Lem Skall: if I don’t die, but just never log into SL again, am I doing something wrong by not saying good bye to people?[2010/12/21 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, I think you are[2010/12/21 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: People will react to the loss as like a death[2010/12/21 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Politeness is always welcome.[2010/12/21 15:48]  Archmage Atlantis: None know me perefectly well….yet I am before you always[2010/12/21 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: I know it would upset Jamie if I never logged in again, with no explanation for my disappearance.[2010/12/21 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, its more that politeness[2010/12/21 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: on the other hand, I think we are getting used to people disappearing[2010/12/21 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. I don’t know. Like Ivy said, on the Internet, people come and go….[2010/12/21 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And my gf read a story where ppl in an SL like environment were being stalked; their paratars killed off one by one; people only after a while wondered where they had gone to[2010/12/21 15:48]  Lem Skall: what difference does it make if I do say good bye? why do people need closure?[2010/12/21 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Beyond politeness? :)[2010/12/21 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: You know, despite me training my mind to think immersionist, I just cannot think of the people who left Sl permanently as dead. They are somewhere, doing something.[2010/12/21 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, well that is nice and empathetic of you[2010/12/21 15:49]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, politeness is relative, what does it mean anyway?[2010/12/21 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, well is that any defferent than us thinking of our dead loved ones in Heaven?[2010/12/21 15:49]  Archmage Atlantis: Their closure problem, Lem, not yours[2010/12/21 15:49]  GNE Greene: I’ve just noticed that this is my rez-day. Four years old! [grin][2010/12/21 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It just means: rules of behaviour of a community[2010/12/21 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, well, it means respect for the person, for one thing[2010/12/21 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (congrats, GNE!)[2010/12/21 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey, what if an avatar was announced as dead, and an alt went in to check reactions and…nobody gave a damn?[2010/12/21 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Congrats, GNF![2010/12/21 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: happy rez day :)[2010/12/21 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo congrats![2010/12/21 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we had some complex issues with people announcing they were dead in SL…[2010/12/21 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, it will show how much people here care about you[2010/12/21 15:50]  Lem Skall: Rhi, what is respect? what I’m willing to give or what the other person expects?[2010/12/21 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s just community rules, Lem :)[2010/12/21 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, well, if you knew that the person was worried about you, and you didn’t give a shit, that is disrespect.[2010/12/21 15:51]  Luisa Bourgoin: the second four years today! gratulations[2010/12/21 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: In the real world death is accompanied by cadavers. In a virtual world there is an excess of faces and stories and stuff to do… you’d really have to *miss* someone to notice.[2010/12/21 15:51]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, there are NO “community rules”, who made them? who is this community?[2010/12/21 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Now, how about when an avatar has two people behind the keyboard?[2010/12/21 15:51]  Luisa Bourgoin: some people sing “I was born dead”[2010/12/21 15:51]  Archmage Atlantis: I truely dislike rez day, and dates at all in the world we know as SLL[2010/12/21 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And only one dies…[2010/12/21 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Death doesn’t cause a stink… or coffee and cake… or inheritances and bickering heirs[2010/12/21 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The community that uses a space, physical or virtual, makes the rules[2010/12/21 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, there are clear disanalogies to an avatar vanishing and death; Elia was able to come back to his sim; Auguste does as an alt.[2010/12/21 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh there are inheritance issues in SL too, Khannea :)[2010/12/21 15:52]  Luisa Bourgoin: there is a virtual memorial graveyard. a web page[2010/12/21 15:52]  Archmage Atlantis: Human nature makes the rules, then fits them to the community[2010/12/21 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Everyone always recognized birric when he comes back after being banned (again).[2010/12/21 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sort of, Arch; I’d say it’s iterative[2010/12/21 15:53]  Lem Skall: if Extie’s character is a fictional one and her primary does not die and does keep Extie in SL but changes her persona completely, like making her EVIL and STUPID, is that better or worse than the primary dying?[2010/12/21 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: …Is it me, or was there a case last year when the primary of a male avvie died, and the RL wife took over the account and roleplayed her husband in SL as his avvie?[2010/12/21 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But if someone were to leave altogether, then to avoid the sense of loss, you should tell him[2010/12/21 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Lem![2010/12/21 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: is Extie such a good actress then? ;)[2010/12/21 15:53]  Lem Skall: and Gwyn, I disagree again about the community rules[2010/12/21 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You do? well, you’re an anarchist lol[2010/12/21 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Dunno…might be if I fink about it….bitch![2010/12/21 15:54]  Lem Skall: I’m a nihilist[2010/12/21 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: More like an anchorite, Gwyn[2010/12/21 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah, right![2010/12/21 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Rhi haha[2010/12/21 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: perhaps , perhaps :)[2010/12/21 15:54]  GNE Greene: We reycle RL a great deal in creating SL, for birth/rezday, social rules, even social distances…[2010/12/21 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Extropia, would suck if LL banned her husband’s account … but strictly in compliance with TOS[2010/12/21 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but ok Lem. For everybody else, community rules are important ;)[2010/12/21 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, what about the case of banning? Is that really like a death?[2010/12/21 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: More like exile….[2010/12/21 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Temporary or permanent exile.[2010/12/21 15:55]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, is there a document of those rules?[2010/12/21 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, yeah, i think so; but Elia really took it hard[2010/12/21 15:55]  Archmage Atlantis: If I were banned, I would simply come back as an alt[2010/12/21 15:55]  Lem Skall: is there a constitution of SL? other than the TOS?[2010/12/21 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: But if you cannot interact with someone…how is that NOT akin to death?[2010/12/21 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, give it a rest; people who relate to each other have empathy[2010/12/21 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh, Lem, a lot of communities publish them yes… do you have any in mind?[2010/12/21 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even Thinkers has some rules![2010/12/21 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: One friend in SL logged in last this summer. She was suicidal at the time. Severe back problems., years on morphine. Havent seen her in months.[2010/12/21 15:55]  GNE Greene: I believe the LL ToS has provision for inherritence of avatars.[2010/12/21 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Arch, yes, but then people who wanted to be with you couldn’t know it was you[2010/12/21 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, GNE, they have[2010/12/21 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Unless like birric, of course, and they replaced each banned alt with one who behaved identically. Endless reincarnation[2010/12/21 15:56]  Archmage Atlantis: Agree, Rhi…..nor would I wish to be a banned entity[2010/12/21 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, did you mean banning is like death because you cannot interact with people afterwards?[2010/12/21 15:56]  Archmage Atlantis: So I would evolve[2010/12/21 15:56]  GNE Greene: Muting is almost like death?[2010/12/21 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, it was I who broiught that up[2010/12/21 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh sorry[2010/12/21 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah. Sort of.[2010/12/21 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, I’d say that you can ban someone from *SL*, but you cn still interact with them afterwards[2010/12/21 15:57]  Luisa Bourgoin: I consider both mechanisms a failure[2010/12/21 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Arch, as a banned entity, i think it can be fun–it becomes a game to see how long you can outwit the sim owner[2010/12/21 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: just not *through SL*[2010/12/21 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Of course, we have to remember that these days a digital person extends beyond its rez place.[2010/12/21 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: like real life exiles…[2010/12/21 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And Gwyn, to answer your question, yes, that is exactly what Elia was saying[2010/12/21 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Okies :)[2010/12/21 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: All of Auguste’s friends were in a single sim, and she couldn’t see them[2010/12/21 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with Elia then ;)[2010/12/21 15:58]  Archmage Atlantis: The expectation of another acting, being, loving in a certain previous pattern[2010/12/21 15:58]  GNE Greene: I believe LL bans avatars if the cause enough upset. I believe they may even attent to ban humans…[2010/12/21 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: If I were permabanned from SL I would be on FB each day posting moany comment after moany comment, so presumably you would not think I had died. You might wish I had…[2010/12/21 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe GNE[2010/12/21 15:58]  Archmage Atlantis: Is …….I’ve lost the thought[2010/12/21 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie…. but yes, I agree with that view[2010/12/21 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: live goes on outside SL ;)[2010/12/21 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, just have an alt; i was banned from SL, and i held my discussions through an alt; eeryone just assumed she was me.[2010/12/21 15:59]  GNE Greene: I think it is a month or two since I went to my Facebook page. :)[2010/12/21 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: good for you :)[2010/12/21 15:59]  GNE Greene: I’ve been told off by people for not going to Facebook at least daily…[2010/12/21 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I was about to ask…if my primary gets a new account and roleplays that digital person just like me…is it me?[2010/12/21 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And that’s why I disagree with Elia, Gwyn; you can come back as an alt; everyone recognizes birric when he comes back; the only people adversely affected are those who have to seek him out and re-ban him[2010/12/21 16:00]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, oh, nice; i like that question[2010/12/21 16:00]  Archmage Atlantis: Reality check ( I apologized for that term “reality”0[2010/12/21 16:00]  Lem Skall: Extie, will also have the same friends?[2010/12/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Rhi, you would subscribe to Extie’s theory that allthat we are is ‘patterns of thought’. We cannot ‘die’ so long as soeone replicates those patterns in a way that everybody else accepts them as being the original person.[2010/12/21 16:00]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, not at first[2010/12/21 16:00]  GNE Greene: Avatars do drag some history around with them – Profile, Groups, Friends, Rez Date…[2010/12/21 16:00]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, oh, nice try to catch me; no, there has to be more; the paratar has to be behind the patterns of thought[2010/12/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, now I would ask how do you know who this “you” is :)[2010/12/21 16:00]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So not ‘someone;’ ‘you.'[2010/12/21 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Same question to you, Rhi — what is that ‘you’? :)[2010/12/21 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And that raises my other question–what if two people use the same alt, and one dies[2010/12/21 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: So is it accepotable that LL can in fact wield the ban weapon? If extropia was perma-banned for some mnisunderstanding I would regard the act as state sponsored execution…[2010/12/21 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, well, she looks like me; types like me, and i am aware of her interaction with the environment; some people might mourn Rhia’s death though[2010/12/21 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: “you” or “i” is a meta pattern that exists in the abstract space between SL and the people who use it.[2010/12/21 16:01]  Luisa Bourgoin: there will be some pernsonality streak missing[2010/12/21 16:01]  GNE Greene: Humans are pretty good at looking for patterns in their reality, and, disguise/acting is up against that?[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d agree with you, Extie, but with a twist: why limit it to SL?[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila: /me spanked xxNicolexx’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And to you Gwyn–i’ve been accused of being the latest incarnation of a Scott Pierson; because he liked to role play intelligent, erudite women. So the ‘pattern’ here has continued, n’est c’ pas? So am I Scott?[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila Boa: OMG SORRYYYYYY[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila Boa: I didnt ean[2010/12/21 16:02]  Archmage Atlantis: cheap and taudry theatircs[2010/12/21 16:02]  Lem Skall: Rhi, will the other “you” also be hot and nakes? becasue that’s all I will care about[2010/12/21 16:02]  Leila Boa: omg sorryyyyy[2010/12/21 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Heh! I could use that whip to keep this lot in check at times.[2010/12/21 16:02]  GNE Greene: Hmm. Interaction spam? :)[2010/12/21 16:03]  Leila Boa: noooooo[2010/12/21 16:03]  Lem Skall: naked*[2010/12/21 16:03]  Leila Boa: I clicked the wrong ball[2010/12/21 16:03]  Leila Boa: :o[2010/12/21 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, of course; how else will people know its me?[2010/12/21 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually I do not limit it to SL..[2010/12/21 16:03]  Archmage Atlantis: Ok enuf for me[2010/12/21 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: It won’t be because of my mind, now, will it?[2010/12/21 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: No that cant possibly be, that scott is a devout woman hater and exremely gay.[2010/12/21 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good, Extie! Neither do I.[2010/12/21 16:03]  Luisa Bourgoin: Leila, could you please spank Lem?[2010/12/21 16:03]  Luisa Bourgoin: ty[2010/12/21 16:03]  Archmage Atlantis: Only a 1/2 hour[2010/12/21 16:03]  Archmage Atlantis: yikes[2010/12/21 16:03]  Leila Boa: luisa????[2010/12/21 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, of course its not true. But the point im making is still an interesting one–what if two people had the same patterns; one disappears and the other comes in?[2010/12/21 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: tc, ARch[2010/12/21 16:04]  GNE Greene: I think we might suspect Rhiannon, after a while, even in an alt as a smurf…[2010/12/21 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Or would it be that no two people *can* have the same pattern.[2010/12/21 16:04]  Lem Skall: yes, someone spank me, please[2010/12/21 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: GNE, i think so[2010/12/21 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if two people have exactly the same patterns, how do hyou kow it’s “two” people??[2010/12/21 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Doppleganger…![2010/12/21 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Rhi[2010/12/21 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: birric’s alts last about a month, and that’s with him dropping all pretenses after a few days.[2010/12/21 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not care about SL or any platform. I care about my friends. Without them, the platform is useless. But are they useless without the platform? Not if you have multiple ways to keep in touch.[2010/12/21 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Rhi is not right.[2010/12/21 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I’m not right? ABout what?[2010/12/21 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I respect Extie’s philosophical thought: there is little more we can say about someone’s existence beyond the patterns we perceive.[2010/12/21 16:05]  GNE Greene: Now, if you are a roleplay fan, with a listed set of behaviour rules, and, lots of practice?[2010/12/21 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Please, tell me, Extie; as I’m so rarely wrong, this will be a special treat for me.[2010/12/21 16:05]  Leila Boa: OK PLEASE LISTEN TO ME[2010/12/21 16:06]  Archmage Atlantis: I respect both Rhi and Ex[2010/12/21 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Rhi :)[2010/12/21 16:06]  Luisa Bourgoin: we need a soapbox[2010/12/21 16:06]  Leila Boa: womeone asked me to spank LEM[2010/12/21 16:06]  Leila Boa: can I?[2010/12/21 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: The patterns do not have to be ‘the same’. Rhi’s model of myself is crude. So any roleplayer only needs to be good enough to stand up to her model of me. Hell, anyone who read a bit of my blog and hung out at Thinkers for a bit could do it.[2010/12/21 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I love that argument![2010/12/21 16:06]  Lem Skall: /me is listening to Leila[2010/12/21 16:06]  Leila Boa: how many times LMuisa????[2010/12/21 16:06]  Lem Skall: yes, leila, that was me asking you[2010/12/21 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extie, no, i think people will eventually see the subtle patterns that make you up; and they will know a fraud[2010/12/21 16:06]  Leila Boa: how many timeS????[2010/12/21 16:07]  Lem Skall: don’t stop[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila Boa: is 15 enough?[2010/12/21 16:07]  Luisa Bourgoin: surely[2010/12/21 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Now my sister Jamie…Or Seren…they would be a LOT harder to convince…You would have to be pretty damn good at impersonating me.[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Leila: /me spanked Lem’s ass …[2010/12/21 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Charming[2010/12/21 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well rhi… the question then is, how do you detect the fraud? I mean, how do YOU know I’m the same person behind the keyboard that I was last week?[2010/12/21 16:07]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extie, ok, now that is getting closer to my point[2010/12/21 16:07]  Lem Skall: ouch[2010/12/21 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok maybe enough of the whip now?[2010/12/21 16:07]  GNE Greene: Could a roleplaying be as good a poet as you, Extropia? Evoke the same imagery? Be creative in the same way?[2010/12/21 16:07]  Archmage Atlantis: Ok, this is like wandering on the battlefield with no weapon[2010/12/21 16:08]  Rhiannon Dragoone: As Khannea said, i can’t be Scott as i’m not a gay male woman hater. Those who think i am Scott look at more superficial similarities, like we’ve both heard of Kant, for instance[2010/12/21 16:08]  Archmage Atlantis: First, stop the slapping[2010/12/21 16:08]  Leila Boa: godod night all[2010/12/21 16:08]  GNE Greene: Just Kant agree? :)[2010/12/21 16:08]  Rhiannon Dragoone: nite, Leila[2010/12/21 16:08]  Lem Skall: who’s Scott?[2010/12/21 16:08]  Archmage Atlantis: K says she has headache, I believe here[2010/12/21 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh noes[2010/12/21 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Well there are a billion people out there in RL…so I would think some of them would be good at roleplaying me?[2010/12/21 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: I only have a minor drug hangover[2010/12/21 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, he’s a 44 year old, 300 lb man who had an affair, as a woman, with the estate manager of thothica; his wife banned him from the internet, and about that time, i show up and ppl think i’m him[2010/12/21 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that the point is “how would we know?”[2010/12/21 16:09]  Lem Skall: what’s a minor drug?[2010/12/21 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: Ecstacy[2010/12/21 16:09]  GNE Greene: A drug below the age of consent? :)[2010/12/21 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, in my case, Elia called Scott up and verified that i’m not him, but teases me anyway[2010/12/21 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Lucid![2010/12/21 16:10]  Archmage Atlantis: And the fact that he is 300 lb is what really bothers you, as that does not confer status[2010/12/21 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: A “minor hangover’ from drug more correctly[2010/12/21 16:10]  Luisa Bourgoin: GNE, that would be twelve year old scotch[2010/12/21 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: It was funny, Elia assured me that i wasn’t Scott.[2010/12/21 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: How often do we quiz an avatar about their past or something, just to make sure it really is who it claims to be? Me, I never did.[2010/12/21 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: Seriously *that fat* ??[2010/12/21 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I being the only one who didn’t need the assurance[2010/12/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, we assemble ideas about other people, based on patterns of behaviour and how they present themselves… if someone uses the same behaviour and the same way to present themselves, how can we know it’s not the same person?[2010/12/21 16:10]  Lem Skall: maybe Scott needed the assurance[2010/12/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I never do that either, Extie :)[2010/12/21 16:11]  Lem Skall: anyone thought of poor Scott?[2010/12/21 16:11]  GNE Greene: /me wonders how many 500lb users of SL exist. :)[2010/12/21 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, i think its because no two patterns are identical[2010/12/21 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, that’s just an assumption[2010/12/21 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, his wife is a therapist and is working on just that problem[2010/12/21 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: /me snortles[2010/12/21 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nevertheless, I’m not the same person I was last week ;)[2010/12/21 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: :)[2010/12/21 16:11]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, who replaced you?[2010/12/21 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Still, you all believe I am. I do too. But I’m not :)[2010/12/21 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, but there is an underlying principle of personal identity, which I believe I mentioned last week.[2010/12/21 16:12]  GNE Greene: I’m preety sure I’m not the same person as I was four years ago… I’d like to think I’m wiser…[2010/12/21 16:12]  Archmage Atlantis: good word invention, or capture, K….snortles[2010/12/21 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Your memories connect to that person from last week, and i do see the same patterns of behavbior[2010/12/21 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m getting replaced all the time, Lem. New patterns of behaviour are forming; I acquire new experiences and think differentlhy because of them… so Ibehave slightly differently[2010/12/21 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: The avatar is a symbol of the self. You see, my avvie is a collection of other people’s content. The body, the eyes, the hair, the makeup, the clothing, the poses…all from different people. I am a walking ensemble of other people’s content. Same with the self..an accretion of other people’s ideas, mannerisms, behaviours etc.[2010/12/21 16:12]  Luisa Bourgoin: minutes before we had conclusion about avatar having a history. friends, places. But we don’t request to know those for identity checks[2010/12/21 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: GNE: I’m not the same person I was half a minute ago lol[2010/12/21 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extopia, i had my avi made from a rl picture of me[2010/12/21 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or half a second[2010/12/21 16:12]  Lem Skall: I bet that once a month you get to be the same person[2010/12/21 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But yeah, my hair is completely different[2010/12/21 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem1[2010/12/21 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem!![2010/12/21 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And more than that, I’m pretty sure that none of you are the same people you were at the beginning of this sentence :)[2010/12/21 16:13]  Archmage Atlantis: That was really male, uninformed, Lem[2010/12/21 16:13]  GNE Greene: I think I’m significantly different from 4yrs ago – I’ve read quite a bit more, if nothing else. :)[2010/12/21 16:13]  Lem Skall: yay! I’m a male[2010/12/21 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, its the king of athen’s boat again.[2010/12/21 16:13]  Archmage Atlantis: I am also, you bastard[2010/12/21 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Ship of Thesus, you mean?[2010/12/21 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: When did Theseus’ boat ease to be his? Well, there is an underlying principle[2010/12/21 16:13]  Lem Skall: yay! I’m a bastard[2010/12/21 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extie, yes[2010/12/21 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But i had a brain fart and couldn’t remember Theseus at first[2010/12/21 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Also Grandfather’s axe…[2010/12/21 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I remember the analogy, not the conclusion ;)[2010/12/21 16:14]  GNE Greene: Granny Weatherwax’s broom? :)[2010/12/21 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: The thing is, in Theseus’ case, the legal title cdontinued; in Gwyn’s case, her memories continue, for her; her behavior, for us[2010/12/21 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: And the question of whether you can step in the same river twice…[2010/12/21 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But my memories do not continue… I keep forgetting things[2010/12/21 16:15]  Luisa Bourgoin: forgetting and inventing memories[2010/12/21 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Luisa[2010/12/21 16:15]  GNE Greene: I believe there is a whole chunk of philosophy about the “Unified Self”…[2010/12/21 16:15]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, well, if your memories are totally torn, like in Alsheimer’s, then we can raise questions; but even then, there is memory continuity for some memories[2010/12/21 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, GNE 🙂 All of it wrong! LOL[2010/12/21 16:15]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me wonders if people will think she’s a different person, cuz she’s sitting this time.[2010/12/21 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the extreme case, Rhi. But the point is, I don’t need to have Alzheimer’s to forget things[2010/12/21 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: But in some ways I think patternism solves the problem. Niagra at the micro level is ever changing water droplets, but it makes a pretty stable pattern that we label as ‘Niagra’. Same thing applies with that cloud of atoms we call Gwyn, in a way.[2010/12/21 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I cannot say there is continuity among ALL my memories, Not at all.[2010/12/21 16:16]  Lem Skall: Rhi, you’re just a cloud to me[2010/12/21 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, and you don’t have to have an eidetic memory for the cdontinuity[2010/12/21 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, you know how to sweet talk a girl[2010/12/21 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aha yes Extie — the trick is in the label.[2010/12/21 16:16]  Domino45 Resident: hello everyone?[2010/12/21 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what do I need to have, if it’s not memory, Rhi?[2010/12/21 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello:)[2010/12/21 16:16]  Archmage Atlantis: If someone carved or painted it on the walll of a cave………it was the reality they undertood[2010/12/21 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Domino![2010/12/21 16:17]  Domino45 Resident: hello how are ya’ll[2010/12/21 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is waiting for an answer (not from you, Extie, I happen to agree with your way to put things)[2010/12/21 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Suppose my primary was the same person, but for some reason all my friends refused to believe I was ‘me’…In that case, am I not, even if my primary believes I AM?[2010/12/21 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, you just need some meories that link[2010/12/21 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: okay, we forget. I’ll try to remember that Niagara example … it’s a solid one[2010/12/21 16:17]  GNE Greene: There was a man I met who had a stroke that stopped him laying down new long-term memories. He didn’t change, much, mentally…[2010/12/21 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extie, no, you’re the same person; again, its like when people think you’re someone else, only in reverse[2010/12/21 16:18]  Domino45 Resident: what are ya’ll talking about?[2010/12/21 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, i love this sit ani; its very modest[2010/12/21 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Unified self…I did a few essays trying to demonstrate their is no such thing…[2010/12/21 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, but how far and how deep do the memories need to go? For instance, I don’t remember been born. I don’t even remember anything before my 4th birthday. Nevertheless, my parents are pretty much convinced that I existed during that period 🙂 For me, there are no memories.[2010/12/21 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, there just needs to be one case of linkage[2010/12/21 16:19]  Archmage Atlantis: Yes Exite, you are because you believe you are………I (whatever) because I believe I am[2010/12/21 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me subscribes to Extie’s view — there is no ‘unified self'[2010/12/21 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, so it’s back to beliefs :)[2010/12/21 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But that’s a subjective view; doesn’t adress how we all can recognize you[2010/12/21 16:19]  Archmage Atlantis: Always[2010/12/21 16:19]  Archmage Atlantis: Math does tell us[2010/12/21 16:19]  Lem Skall: Extie, here’s a questin for you: what if you reveal who your primary is and he/she starts acting as the RL person but tries to keep the same friends?[2010/12/21 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: ARch, you’ve smuggled in a personal identity with the term ‘I'[2010/12/21 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right…. can I quote Extie? It’s about labels.[2010/12/21 16:19]  Archmage Atlantis: That the axions[2010/12/21 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: But there ARE brain patterns or mechanisms or what have you that create the ILLUSION of the unified self.[2010/12/21 16:20]  GNE Greene: We tend to perceive the UNified SElf and Identity as being nearly indentical, so, if it doesn’t exist…[2010/12/21 16:20]  Archmage Atlantis: *aximos[2010/12/21 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, i’ve been banned from a sim from quoting the sim admin, so no[2010/12/21 16:20]  Archmage Atlantis: whatever[2010/12/21 16:20]  Archmage Atlantis: define the reality[2010/12/21 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi …. touchè ;)[2010/12/21 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can quote other people too, btw[2010/12/21 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: aRch, it’s more than a linguistic convention; yes, Extie is the same person because *she* believes she is; the underlying person believes she’s the same person, so of course the belief will be true[2010/12/21 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: all would agree with extie[2010/12/21 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That “belief in self” is just convenient label.[2010/12/21 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We use labels to communicate[2010/12/21 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would be hard to do otherwise[2010/12/21 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But… our labels are not intrinsic[2010/12/21 16:21]  GNE Greene: Lots of the legal system depends on identity?[2010/12/21 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, how so? My belief that I am who I am is not just a convenience; it’s a fact about my being[2010/12/21 16:22]  Archmage Atlantis: So, Gwyn, take away the label[2010/12/21 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. Extie with 15 years is not the same person as Extie today, bvut, for the sake of having a simple conversation, we label it as ‘the same person'[2010/12/21 16:22]  Archmage Atlantis: what is left?[2010/12/21 16:22]  GNE Greene: Without identity, contacts don’t work? You can’t have any continuity?[2010/12/21 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Your belief is fact, yes ;)[2010/12/21 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that’s the only fact: that you believe :)[2010/12/21 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, not convenience, there is continuity between Extie at T sub 1 and Extie at T sub 2; if there weren’t, we wouldn’t call her the same person.[2010/12/21 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, define that continuity foir me, Rhi[2010/12/21 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not “memories”[2010/12/21 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I have memories extending in a past beyond my rez day, from my primary’s life. But are they MY memories?[2010/12/21 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is it then?[2010/12/21 16:23]  GNE Greene: *contracts don’t work[2010/12/21 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: When did I come into being?[2010/12/21 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, it is memory; at least one linkage; from the 1st person pt of view, anyway[2010/12/21 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is memory then? :)[2010/12/21 16:24]  Rhiannon Dragoone: From the 3rd person, its physical continuity; here in SL, it’s behavioral; which is where the slippage comes in[2010/12/21 16:24]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, a perception of the past[2010/12/21 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and mind you, MOST people don’t have continguous memories for ALL the moments in their lives!)[2010/12/21 16:24]  Rhiannon Dragoone: There, thought I couldn’t do it, didn’t you?[2010/12/21 16:24]  Rhiannon Dragoone: lol[2010/12/21 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A perception of the past is nice. Past: something that doesn’t exist.[2010/12/21 16:24]  Luisa Bourgoin: memory comes closest onto what we have, to remmeber the past[2010/12/21 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, now that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms[2010/12/21 16:25]  Archmage Atlantis: Not simple[2010/12/21 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So… you claim to be the same perso because you have a perception of something gthat doesn’t exist any more? :)[2010/12/21 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Right, Rhi. Anyone logging in to my account will obviously LOOK like me. Would that go some way to convince you lot it IS me? Even if the roleplay is only a rough approximation?[2010/12/21 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I claim to be the same person because I perceive the continuity; yes.[2010/12/21 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And i haven’t conceded the past doesn’t exist anymore[2010/12/21 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And how do I perceive that continuity? What is ‘continuity’ made of? Neurons?[2010/12/21 16:25]  Luisa Bourgoin: the concept of humans beeing faulty in regards of memorisations does not question the principle or memory[2010/12/21 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The past exists? Oh my oh my[2010/12/21 16:26]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But if we want to make time an illusion, then my perception must be of my eternal self.[2010/12/21 16:26]  Luisa Bourgoin: similar about identity. you may have changed, but not enough to become another person (or getting away from your former self)[2010/12/21 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Time is not exactly an “illusion” in the sense that itg doesn’t exist; it’s more dependent on the observer[2010/12/21 16:26]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Luisa, exactly! That is why i brought up Theseus’ ship[2010/12/21 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, but that presupposes an observer for it to be dependent upon[2010/12/21 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: if you spoke to me 6 months ago, then didn’t talk at all, you could have concluded that I am a different person (or rather the primary behind the AV is not the same person)[2010/12/21 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes exacty, Rhi. Spot on![2010/12/21 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Ivy.[2010/12/21 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: In general relativity the time is like a solid block and the past, present and future all exist once and for all. Obviously it brings up questions regarding that dreaded philosophical topic…free will![2010/12/21 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: so the continuty isn’t really there to begin with[2010/12/21 16:27]  Luisa Bourgoin: Theseus’ ship … have to dig Loyd’s register[2010/12/21 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me mops her brow; good show, Gwyn![2010/12/21 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is no continuity except in the conversational sense, e.g. it would be hard to communicate if we didn’t have a way to talk about these things[2010/12/21 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, and again, who’s ‘we?'[2010/12/21 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: If not ‘you’ and ‘me?'[2010/12/21 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because if there IS a continuity we could point at it and say: “there it is! It’0s that blobby thingy!”[2010/12/21 16:28]  Domino45 Resident: my friends i have to go[2010/12/21 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Domino, thanks for coming[2010/12/21 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye:)[2010/12/21 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes[2010/12/21 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just labels, Rhi :)[2010/12/21 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah thanks for coming.[2010/12/21 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Labels to keep conversation possible[2010/12/21 16:29]  Domino45 Resident: byee[2010/12/21 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Conversation between whom, Gwyn?[2010/12/21 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that I don’t know how to answer.[2010/12/21 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ask me in 40 years; I’m searching for the answer for the past few years.[2010/12/21 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: There is no whom. There is no between. That is not the Way…..[2010/12/21 16:30]  GNE Greene: There is only the Tao? :)[2010/12/21 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, there is everything :)[2010/12/21 16:30]  Luisa Bourgoin: There is history :/[2010/12/21 16:30]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Even Lao Tse recognized that he had an audience[2010/12/21 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha[2010/12/21 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but yes[2010/12/21 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Still, we digress a bit[2010/12/21 16:31]  Lem Skall: a bit?[2010/12/21 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well not much, Lem[2010/12/21 16:31]  GNE Greene: Without identity, can there be death?[2010/12/21 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you talk about death,[2010/12/21 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: The snare exists because of the rabbit. If you have the rabbit, you do not need the snare. Words exist because of meaning. If you have the meaning, you do not need words. Show me the man who has no words so I may speak with him![2010/12/21 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you have to ask ‘what dies’?[2010/12/21 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so we have to go back to defining the self[2010/12/21 16:31]  Rhiannon Dragoone: We can leave all the high fallutin metaphysis ’till later; the point is that we are paersons, our avatars are representations of those persons, and we can speak of the death of the person and the abandonment of the avatar[2010/12/21 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wee haven’t digressed much….[2010/12/21 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie… I like that[2010/12/21 16:32]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Show me a man who has no words, and i will show you my ideal man.[2010/12/21 16:32]  GNE Greene: I think you need the words to share the meaning?[2010/12/21 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: So come on concluding speeches…Do we have a duty to report when a digital person is dead and is that death necessarily correlated with the demise of a primary?[2010/12/21 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually mmmh there is nothing metaphysical about looking at what we call ‘selves’ and find out that it’s just labels and patterns and little else…[2010/12/21 16:33]  Rhiannon Dragoone: GNF, at least that; we need meaning to have conversations[2010/12/21 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: By contrast, discussing ‘continuity’ is far more metaphysical :)[2010/12/21 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I say Yes! and No![2010/12/21 16:33]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extopia, a duty? Maybe not. But if we respect the people we’ve come to know and whose lives we share, it would be the polite thing to do[2010/12/21 16:33]  GNE Greene: A conversation is something built continously from both eand, if meaning is supposed to flow. :)[2010/12/21 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would say that all societies and communities have rules of behaviour, and under the first assumption, it would be polite to say so.[2010/12/21 16:34]  Lem Skall: oh there’s that respect and politeness again[2010/12/21 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the second case… well, I’d guess it would depend on the persons involved[2010/12/21 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well my time is up…[2010/12/21 16:34]  GNE Greene: Languages are an attempt to negotiate meaning?[2010/12/21 16:34]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extopia, your time is up? Your days are numbered?[2010/12/21 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well Lem, I respect your nihilistic/anarchist view, but I still prefer my way :)[2010/12/21 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK…is not Thinkers discussion but Thinkers Lecture….

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2 Responses to THINKERS DECEMBER 21 2010: RIP DP

  1. Archmage Atlantis says:

    Still difficult to read…..is that a point?

  2. I do try to format the post so it is easier to read, but when I publish, it ends up looking like this. I do not know why.

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