THINKERS DEC 07 2010: PERFECT ME!

Dizzy Banjo at Thinkers

 

15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers.[2010/12/07 15:38]  Rhiannon Dragoone: any1, i don’t wear clothes[2010/12/07 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, I can see Any1 now.[2010/12/07 15:38]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Samson![2010/12/07 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: I am going to begin with a quote before I remind you all of today’s topic.[2010/12/07 15:38]  Samson Novi: /me waves[2010/12/07 15:38]  Samson Novi: hiyas[2010/12/07 15:38]  Luisa Bourgoin: Rhi must be a Hogwarts house elf … refusing to pick up clothes[2010/12/07 15:38]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Atari![2010/12/07 15:39]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi guys :)[2010/12/07 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Aziel![2010/12/07 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: This quote comes from someone who is one of SL’s most beloved residents.[2010/12/07 15:39]  Luisa Bourgoin: Prok?[2010/12/07 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Luisa, well better than the last suggestion; that i was a Ferengi[2010/12/07 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: She is talking about how people behave around her in RL…[2010/12/07 15:39]  Lem Skall: me?[2010/12/07 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: and I quote…[2010/12/07 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: The more people talk to me in person, the less they like it”.[2010/12/07 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: So…[2010/12/07 15:40]  Phedre Dassin: lol[2010/12/07 15:40]  Lem Skall: like what? what is IT?[2010/12/07 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: With Tateru Nino’s quote im mind, I ask….[2010/12/07 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: What happens when your avatar is a better person than you? What effects, might this have?[2010/12/07 15:40]  Phedre Dassin: aw, I like talking to Tat any time[2010/12/07 15:40]  Luisa Bourgoin: define quality of a person…[2010/12/07 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure how that would even happen Extie.[2010/12/07 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, well, what if ur a better person than ur avatar?[2010/12/07 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: I have met Tateru a couple of times. I find her quite charming.[2010/12/07 15:41]  Lem Skall: is the avatar really a better person or is just the people’s perception better?[2010/12/07 15:41]  Samson Novi: i would imagine their real life would suffer[2010/12/07 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: I AM a better person than my primary.[2010/12/07 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Zo, well, youi project an image as an avatar; and you could be more charming than in rl[2010/12/07 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: Not sure if looking better is the same as being better.[2010/12/07 15:42]  any1 Gynoid: Unless u have malicious intent in SL… i believe most all avis are better ppls than there RL… certainly more physically perfect… able to be more free … more expressive…. more friendly than RL…. and more visionary…[2010/12/07 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, Zo, i think the quotation, as I understood it, was more for image projection[2010/12/07 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: In Tateru’s case, if people generally treat her as if she is a better person here than in RL, then does that mean she IS as far as SL society is concerned?[2010/12/07 15:42]  Luisa Bourgoin: perception got limited by bandwidth … we idealise the missing pieces in our imagination[2010/12/07 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: any1, but that works the other way too; i’ve met ppl who I know wouldn’t be as rude and nasty in rl, because they would prolly be murdered if they were[2010/12/07 15:43]  any1 Gynoid: yes.. that’s selfish intent…i don’t support that behavior[2010/12/07 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, I think it does mean that; as you are your avatar here[2010/12/07 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I have known some people in RL that I liked. . . in small doses. :/[2010/12/07 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn![2010/12/07 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But ur right, any, we can be better than rl here, if we try[2010/12/07 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Gwyn![2010/12/07 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me mumbles something against the Lindens[2010/12/07 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: hi Gwyn[2010/12/07 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Yay, you made it[2010/12/07 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely a miracle…[2010/12/07 15:44]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Gwyn :)[2010/12/07 15:44]  Luisa Bourgoin: as rude and nasty as in SL … that’s the other assumption of VRs working like amplifiers[2010/12/07 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi all 🙂 Sorry for being late…[2010/12/07 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, do better next time, Gwyn, and we will forgive you. lol[2010/12/07 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: I shall repeat the opening quote for Gwyn. Gwyn, one of SL’s most beloved residents said of people she meets in RL…[2010/12/07 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: The more people talk to me in person, the less they like it”.[2010/12/07 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: So I submit that this is a case of a person in SL being better than her primary.[2010/12/07 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: anyway, on with the discussion.[2010/12/07 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm[2010/12/07 15:45]  Luisa Bourgoin: been from Tateru … I thought “Prok” at first[2010/12/07 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, was that Tats who said that?[2010/12/07 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: yes.[2010/12/07 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: It is quoted in Hamlet’s book.[2010/12/07 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well… you know about her condition[2010/12/07 15:45]  any1 Gynoid: We can crash or be logged any time… LL can wipe us out at will with no reason… I think wewell for some of us… being better than our RL… is a passion… our SL becomes a whole separate personality… an ideal person… a superwoman[2010/12/07 15:45]  Phedre Dassin: I submit that the assertion is faulty, and that it’s merely the perspective of the person that Tat is talking to that’s changed.[2010/12/07 15:46]  Phedre Dassin: Tat is no better or worse in RL[2010/12/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me seconds Phedre and totally agrees[2010/12/07 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: /me *waves* at Arisia[2010/12/07 15:46]  Arisia Vita: Hi all[2010/12/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me says hi to Ari as well[2010/12/07 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Arisia :)[2010/12/07 15:46]  Lem Skall: what is Tat’s condition?[2010/12/07 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I agree, any, we are a whole separate personality here; and if we have alts, each alt is a seperate personality, no matter how hard we try to mesh them together[2010/12/07 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Arisia![2010/12/07 15:46]  any1 Gynoid: keep in mind that in SL … we meet at the level of fantasy…. in fantasy we are perfect…[2010/12/07 15:47]  Lem Skall: I think we are mostly just perceived differently[2010/12/07 15:47]  Aziel Sigall: we are imperfect in all worlds.[2010/12/07 15:47]  Aziel Sigall: perfectionism is self defeatist[2010/12/07 15:47]  Aziel Sigall: we must accept each other as we are[2010/12/07 15:47]  Lem Skall: but it may also be that we perceive others differently so we do behave differently[2010/12/07 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, but ppl’s perception of you changes your behavior, and the way you see yourself[2010/12/07 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not good at developing characters, at role-playing.[2010/12/07 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: But from some philosophical POV’s it is the perspective of the ‘generalized other’ ie the society in which one lives, that largely creates our personae.[2010/12/07 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, Lem is also on the right track.[2010/12/07 15:47]  any1 Gynoid: well I mean perfection in the sense of self actualization.. not self flaggelation lol[2010/12/07 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, well here we can choose that ‘generalized other’ more easily[2010/12/07 15:48]  Lem Skall: there is no right track[2010/12/07 15:48]  Luisa Bourgoin: noobs are known for running wild at first week … oldbies are overly tolerant … actually, you can’t say we are this or that, without mentioning point of development[2010/12/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes and no, Extie. You can’t deal with other people’s perception of your self; nevertheless, that doesn’t mean that you don’t create your own self, too[2010/12/07 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Overly tolerant?[2010/12/07 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Luisa, and oldies are somtimes more adjusted to the reality of sl, I say sometimes, as not always[2010/12/07 15:48]  Luisa Bourgoin: the intolerant oldbies allready left :P[2010/12/07 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe so. A group I’m in was having a lot of drama today, and my comment to one of the officers was “Not much phases me anymore.” :D[2010/12/07 15:49]  any1 Gynoid: umm confused… are we mostly psychologists tonite… or sociologists… there is huge difference in way we think[2010/12/07 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As for Rhi’s argument… obviously many people are able to manage split personalities, but not everybody can do that *flawlessly* — it takes a) a lo of training (see: actors!) or b) a mental condition that facilitates that. Most of us are neither a) nor b)[2010/12/07 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Luisa, no, I know at least one sim where they congregate. Sort of the home for old intolerant avi’s[2010/12/07 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Obviously we all create our self here. But do some of us, for whatever reason also create a generalized other that reflects more favourably on us than our RL selves?[2010/12/07 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, but you do change with the perception; ppl treat Huntress very different, so I feel different as Huntress, although you may ask why?[2010/12/07 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, my alts/characters tend to be pretty much me — as I imagine myself in different circumstances, at least.[2010/12/07 15:50]  Luisa Bourgoin: that sim’s name? “grunty oldfart’s isle” ?[2010/12/07 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why is easy to ask; I prefer the answer :)[2010/12/07 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: How do people treat Huntress differently when she behaves, uses the same mannerisms, etc, as yourself?[2010/12/07 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perception.[2010/12/07 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, well, it wouldn’t be the same mannerisms, as she has a different AO, but ppl who ban me like her[2010/12/07 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Ah, that is a difference. How interesting.[2010/12/07 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And even when they know she’s me[2010/12/07 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, that’s one of the reason Facebook “insists” on Real Names™. People react differently when they’re sure they’re dealing with a Real Name™, and, in turn, when writing profiles under your Real Name™, you behave differently.[2010/12/07 15:51]  Lem Skall: what if our av is a WORSE person than us?[2010/12/07 15:51]  Luisa Bourgoin: so body language impacts acceptance[2010/12/07 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: But sometimes, when Huntress speaks, she sounds like you. To me, anyway.[2010/12/07 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Luisa, i think it does[2010/12/07 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good, better, bad, worse… these are all labels lol[2010/12/07 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But also history; if you meet an avi, even knowing it’s the same person, it’s a different experience[2010/12/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For instance, I’m close to being a communist terroriost for Prokofy…[2010/12/07 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m widely enough known by this name for it to be practically like a Real Name.[2010/12/07 15:52]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, person is a label too ;P[2010/12/07 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: If FB insists on real names will I be banned?[2010/12/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite so, Lem :)[2010/12/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Only if you catch Zuckerman’s attention, Extie![2010/12/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *berg[2010/12/07 15:52]  any1 Gynoid: you all taught me something important… with all of us in SL.. there is a personal compass… some striving to be better as possible…. other’s don’t care…. and some … as downright nasty as can be lol[2010/12/07 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Of course I will. I am the reason why the universe exists. He is bound to catch on to this fact eventually.[2010/12/07 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: any1, right, just like in FL[2010/12/07 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed :)[2010/12/07 15:53]  Luisa Bourgoin: eventually, humanity will get over facebook one day[2010/12/07 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, solipsism, Extie? hehe[2010/12/07 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, deliberately so; she was made to be me in places where I ws banned; I told you of the sim owner who bans me but even encourages my alts to come[2010/12/07 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok..Is it actually the point of SL to become a better person than your primary?[2010/12/07 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me pines for that day, Luisa[2010/12/07 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL says so, Extie… :)[2010/12/07 15:54]  Luisa Bourgoin: no, there ain’t no point for SL at all[2010/12/07 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Everybody finds a different “point of SL”. 🙂 But who knows, it could be one.[2010/12/07 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “to improve the human condition”, yadda yadda[2010/12/07 15:54]  any1 Gynoid: ur “complex” Rhiannon… wow[2010/12/07 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, if you are going to live a fantasy life you might as well go all the way and become what your creator can only dream of;)[2010/12/07 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: any, ty, i think[2010/12/07 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: You know..[2010/12/07 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I think ppl’s avi’s can be worse here; as I say, i’ve met ppl who would be murdered if they acted the way they do in SL[2010/12/07 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Or at least arrested[2010/12/07 15:56]  any1 Gynoid: well…. in certain dimensions… you become idealized… like nude Rhiannon… and then you expand conciousness in other ways…. like organizing social actions… and blogging[2010/12/07 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Rhi[2010/12/07 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Right, Any; one way of expressing yourself isn’t the only way[2010/12/07 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Sherry Turkle talked about some guy, who created an amazingly popular character in a MUD back in the 80s. But he was just unable to relate any of her personality to himself, and in the end it had a very adverse effect on him.[2010/12/07 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s the lack of sense in personal responsibility; people on the lower scale of Kohlberg’s moral stages will ‘feel’ there are no constraints here and behave accordingly[2010/12/07 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: 90s sorry.[2010/12/07 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, there are constraints; it’s just different ones than in FL[2010/12/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely not many physical constraints 🙂 (like getting arrested!)[2010/12/07 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: strange[2010/12/07 15:58]  Luisa Bourgoin: there is the cornfield[2010/12/07 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: what is, Zoe?[2010/12/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha :)[2010/12/07 15:58]  Luisa Bourgoin: I have read about[2010/12/07 15:58]  Luisa Bourgoin: neva been there![2010/12/07 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hah, yes, put him in the cornfield…[2010/12/07 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Your story about the MUD character, that’s strange.[2010/12/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me suddenly notices that Scarp has left a few books by Spinoza for us to read ![2010/12/07 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: I’d like to imagine that experiences we have in SL would, if anything, be applicable to RL and improve the ways we deal with it too.[2010/12/07 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yay! Spinoza![2010/12/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (or, rather, luisa)[2010/12/07 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: There can be but one substance…[2010/12/07 15:59]  Luisa Bourgoin: last weeks discovery[2010/12/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm :)[2010/12/07 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh. The guy ended up completely obssessed about revealing other people’s true identities, as I recall.[2010/12/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo, as an optimist, I believe so, too[2010/12/07 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Heh. . . I went through an alt-obsession phase on the MUCKs too. I got over it. :)[2010/12/07 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that at least oe hing is pretty certain.. almost everybody will, at some point (if they use SL long/intensely enough), have to deal with this strange thing we call ‘self'[2010/12/07 16:00]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I think we often try to model SL after FL; coming to places as the same avi, so there’s visual recognition[2010/12/07 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *one thing[2010/12/07 16:00]  any1 Gynoid: society fundamentally operates at Kohlberg stage 1 punishment and obedience…. for example Wikileaks founder… sitting in jail cell[2010/12/07 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, any1![2010/12/07 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree 🙂 I would say that MOST people are at that stage[2010/12/07 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: any, not a pure example, as he can negotiate in a way most prisoners can’t[2010/12/07 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or at least 1-3[2010/12/07 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: While ‘democracy’ is a stage 5 moral organisation[2010/12/07 16:01]  any1 Gynoid: advertising at Stage 2…. self interest.. what’s in it for me…. this is TV explained![2010/12/07 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*[2010/12/07 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, though, one of the principles of good marketing is always think of the interests of your clients or customers; that’s the way to success in business[2010/12/07 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg’s_stages_of_moral_development#Stages%5B2010/12/07 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: That would be true, Zoe, unless maybe you went and made a digital person who is different enough to the primary that some or maybe most of people’s behaviour around the DP NOT what would happen if they met the primary? For instance, you might all like me but find my primary to be quite unpleasent, who knows?[2010/12/07 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: um, ur level 3 is incorrect; social contract is not utilitarian[2010/12/07 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: It’s fairness oriented[2010/12/07 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Scarp![2010/12/07 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hiya Scarp![2010/12/07 16:03]  Scarp Godenot: heya[2010/12/07 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: What, like if your primary has a bad stutter? :)[2010/12/07 16:04]  any1 Gynoid: <— will have to re-engineer Kholberg Stage 3 and above…. doesn’t make sense yet… hmmmm[2010/12/07 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some people get embarassed by meeting me the first time in RL; most it’s the other way round lol[2010/12/07 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Although you can gloss that with rule utilitariainism, the point of the social contract is that we all treat others as fundamfentally equal[2010/12/07 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Rhi[2010/12/07 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: By what miracle do you jump out of online spaces to inhabit RL, Gwyn?[2010/12/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind power, Extie :)[2010/12/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just will it to happen ;)[2010/12/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And vice-versa too, of course.[2010/12/07 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey, if you see Damon Albarn perform Gorillaz songs, have you actually seen the Gorrillaz lead singer perform, or just the guy that does his voice? ;)[2010/12/07 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins.[2010/12/07 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good example :)[2010/12/07 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, that’s a good analogy, Extie; we have a performance here in sl[2010/12/07 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And we judge and are judged by it[2010/12/07 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL as the ultimate story.[2010/12/07 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh.[2010/12/07 16:07]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And the ultimate way to experience the other’s story[2010/12/07 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It just shows that thinking about ‘personality’ just leads to finding out that… it is definitely nothing intrinsic ;)[2010/12/07 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that’s a very important use of SL, figuring out about one’s self.[2010/12/07 16:08]  Lem Skall: gwyn, why do people get embarassed?[2010/12/07 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And one that is not even listed in LL’s small print :)[2010/12/07 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: But then when you finally figure out what persoanlity is, you tell people only for them to say ‘uh what? That makes no sense to me at all”‘. Hahaha:)[2010/12/07 16:08]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, SL can help you understand that, as here you have to decide how to act when you’re embarassed; like my embarassed nude jewel[2010/12/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh good question, Lem! It’s mostly because of the strange feeling they have known me for a long time, but all of a sudden, what they *see* is a stranger.[2010/12/07 16:09]  Luisa Bourgoin: simultaneous, interacting story development that’s quite appealing. so often there had been promises of “interactive movies” or similar which did not worked[2010/12/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It takes some time for them to mentally adjust to untie the mind they are in touch with from the visual image of my virtual or physical body :)[2010/12/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: exactly :)[2010/12/07 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, well don’t forget that ppl here take your virtual body as *you*[2010/12/07 16:10]  Lem Skall: I don’t[2010/12/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So do they in the physical world.[2010/12/07 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, yes[2010/12/07 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: Looking at the board over there, I can see that Libertarians don’t make it past stage 2.[2010/12/07 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, then you’re unusual[2010/12/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right 🙂 We’re conditioned to think that way: body = self[2010/12/07 16:10]  Lem Skall: yes, I am[2010/12/07 16:10]  Luisa Bourgoin: hardcoded, we cant change that[2010/12/07 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: But the interactive movies I have played were actually a lot LESS interactive than most videogames. You essentially pick from a few alternate scenes in a sequence of movie clips. Not all that great.[2010/12/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Scarp 😉 hehe[2010/12/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (note: Kohlberg is heavilly disputed; nevertheless, few have advanced similar frameworks)[2010/12/07 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Like the woman who was hear last time, who reacted as if I was really dancing in the middle of the floor here[2010/12/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Rhi[2010/12/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa, I happen to disagree :)[2010/12/07 16:11]  Lem Skall: Rhi, or as if you’re really naked[2010/12/07 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, he’s more disputed for what he excludes–feminine perspectives; emotions[2010/12/07 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: You were.[2010/12/07 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, most ppl I encounter here in SL think of me as really being naked[2010/12/07 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: You are.[2010/12/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I certainly do! lol[2010/12/07 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Well…apart from your shoes.[2010/12/07 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: Well, lets not pretend that iconography has no meaning.[2010/12/07 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, yes, I am, in the context of SL[2010/12/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lovely shoes, always :)[2010/12/07 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extie, I am not going to take my shoes off in front of you all[2010/12/07 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: ty, Gwyneth[2010/12/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, good point, Scarp. It does have a meaning[2010/12/07 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not fond of prim feet. But if I’m taking off clothes, usually shoes are the *first* thing to go. :/[2010/12/07 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: Yes and representing avatar as naked means just that: Here is someone who is naked.[2010/12/07 16:13]  Lem Skall: yes, your av is naked, but does it have the same meaning as a person in RL being naked? No[2010/12/07 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: we can change our behavior to some extend. perhaps … maybe beeing expereinced to this SL world can make you reconsider reacting to physical shapes?[2010/12/07 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: I got prim feet for a present. I am going to wear them this Saturday.[2010/12/07 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: I doubt that! we got tricked by clothes all to often in RL[2010/12/07 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thankfully so! haha[2010/12/07 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Nudity in SL is sort of like another costume. It’s like going around as an elf, or a furry, or a robot.[2010/12/07 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, well not precisely the same meaning, but yes it does have an overlap with that meaning[2010/12/07 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah it is just another texture, really.[2010/12/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it evokes images that are conditioned socially, Zo[2010/12/07 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Trust me, after a year spent this way, I know[2010/12/07 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: There is a lot of transference going on in SL and I don’t think that can be ignored. People transfer their own values/ actions to their avatar and ‘inhabit’ that form.[2010/12/07 16:14]  Lem Skall: true though, the nudity is more meaningful when you also dance around a pole[2010/12/07 16:14]  Lem Skall: :)[2010/12/07 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, oh, let’s not go there. Remember last week…[2010/12/07 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: lol[2010/12/07 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: I wonder how people would have treated Rhi if her body was unlovely, rather than the pretty magnificent figure we see before us?[2010/12/07 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa, someone who reconsiders their reaction to physical shapes because of immersion in SL would be someone I’d really admire. I have met a few…[2010/12/07 16:15]  Luisa Bourgoin: Gwyn allready barred the entry pathway…[2010/12/07 16:15]  Arisia Vita: the same, for she would have been the same…[2010/12/07 16:15]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But Lem, that’s a point; i was told by one sim owner that to her, I was just naked; not sexualize din any way, and the ppl who came to her discussions, after getting over the shock of a naked woman “not in a cage or on a pole,” also took it that way[2010/12/07 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are a LOT of experiments in that area, Extie[2010/12/07 16:15]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Whereas, around a pole, it evokes the same meaning as it does in FL[2010/12/07 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Crystal![2010/12/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ari, “we” might (in the sense of: this group would)[2010/12/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But some research shows a completely different answer[2010/12/07 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Crystal:)[2010/12/07 16:16]  CrystalShard Foo: o hai[2010/12/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Crystal! wow 🙂 Thinkers must be getting famous :)[2010/12/07 16:16]  Luisa Bourgoin: lol! that cgae’n’pole comparison is taletelling about oldbie tolerance levels having expanded[2010/12/07 16:16]  CrystalShard Foo: Actually I was stalking Phedre but sure :D[2010/12/07 16:16]  Phedre Dassin: lol[2010/12/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe[2010/12/07 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extie, i put in a plug in my group for it[2010/12/07 16:16]  Phedre Dassin: /me pats on the couch[2010/12/07 16:16]  Lem Skall: Shalom Crystal[2010/12/07 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: Avatar in a social setting such as SL is communication. You are communicating something. Now…. everyone is doing this in varying degrees. Some as irony, some a projection and some as literal. We can’t paint any one of these as general. But we CAN say they are all some form of communication.[2010/12/07 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: AH, spoken like an artist, Scarp![2010/12/07 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: By “just naked,” that would mean without the semiotics usually associated with female nudity[2010/12/07 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: very good :)[2010/12/07 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Do we think Arisia ‘s response is tyipcal of most people? That someone would have been treated the same no matter what avatar they had? for instance, suppose I had decided to be a man in SL. Would I really be treated JUST THE SAME!?[2010/12/07 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Research says “no”.[2010/12/07 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, right, and i think there is communication *directly* to our subconscious in SL[2010/12/07 16:18]  CrystalShard Foo: That depends on who you hang with. I’ve ran some tests.[2010/12/07 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The good thing about research is that you can always do new research.[2010/12/07 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extie, i think not; I have a male avi, and he is treated a lot differently[2010/12/07 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the studies published so far show that we are VERY conditioned by an avatar’s appearance.[2010/12/07 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: He has male privilege, can say absurd things and ppl will respect it, whereas I have to fight to be heard sometimes[2010/12/07 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “we” meaning: the average SL user[2010/12/07 16:19]  CrystalShard Foo: I’ve actually made a male version of my avatar and ran around. The only real difference I received was that people were far less tolerant to me being naked, but that’s about it. :p[2010/12/07 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Crysal, there’s that, but I have gone to philosophy sims as a male, and they treat men very differently than women[2010/12/07 16:19]  Lem Skall: sorry, Ehi, what were you saying?[2010/12/07 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: People are NEVER really treated as equal. We judge everyone and every avatar we see based on their representation and our prejudices.[2010/12/07 16:19]  Lem Skall: Rhi*[2010/12/07 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I can say, “The world is flat,” as Quido or Scott, and they will nod and respect me[2010/12/07 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree Scarp.[2010/12/07 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh i did that too once, RHi hehe[2010/12/07 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I can say “2 plus 2 equals 4,” and they will challenge me on it as a woman[2010/12/07 16:19]  CrystalShard Foo: People still listened to me as much as anyone else. The only time I was considered “less important” was during a debate on, surprise, a Gorean sim where they had an “open debate with the SL community” as for why people dislike Goreans.[2010/12/07 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: IS the world of SL flat?[2010/12/07 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can now say that I had an alt once and dressed it as a male — it got kicked out of Thinkers! (before your time, Extie dear)[2010/12/07 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i’m reporting what happened to me, Crystal[2010/12/07 16:20]  Lem Skall: whoa, I think you 2 are exaggerating, Gwyn and Rhi, I am challenging THAT[2010/12/07 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Even people who think I’m too smart to be a woman still treated me differently as a male[2010/12/07 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: aww. Why? What did he do?[2010/12/07 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow I’d love to have been on that conversation, Crystal!![2010/12/07 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, i am exaggerating a little bit, the 2 plus 2, bit, but otherwise, not[2010/12/07 16:21]  CrystalShard Foo: Gwyneth, not much to see – anyone who didnt say stuff like “people just hate us because we’re different” got ignored.[2010/12/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, that’s the fun bit! I just wrote whatever crossed my mind, pretty much as I do here, but with a male avatar, everybody considered what I said very rude.[2010/12/07 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, and when I’m black? I’m considered more sexual and slutty[2010/12/07 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn, Rhi, do you feel most like ‘yourself’ when in the avatars present today?[2010/12/07 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extie, I do[2010/12/07 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Especially since this one was custom made from my rl picture[2010/12/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I gave up on alts years ago, Extie, I really can’t say what would be “more myself”[2010/12/07 16:22]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, but it may be that you are treated differently as Gwyn not because you are female but because you are well-known[2010/12/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although I *do* experiment with RL alts sometimes :)[2010/12/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, possibly![2010/12/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t know lol[2010/12/07 16:22]  Rhiannon Dragoone: That’s also why i made Huntress; when I was told to come as an alt by the guy who banned me, it was partly so I wouldn’t have the influence of ‘Rhi,’ but I wanted to be myself, hence Huntress[2010/12/07 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: It is not uncommon. I did research into this. 90%+ of people can readily identify a primary avatar that they feel most like themselves in.[2010/12/07 16:22]  Lem Skall: nist likely though[2010/12/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll do that experiment again, under Extie’s benevolent moderation :)[2010/12/07 16:22]  Lem Skall: most*[2010/12/07 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So I consider Huntress to be a co-primary, not an alt[2010/12/07 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: I think we should all stop and thing what it is that makes us take the time to check someone’s SL profile. It is that their avatar or their chat has triggered something that makes us thing they might be interesting. We an say a lot with our avatar.[2010/12/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, co-primary![2010/12/07 16:23]  Lem Skall: I am treated differently be people here at Thinkers based on how well they know me or how little[2010/12/07 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Do you get hit on much?[2010/12/07 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok Gwyn but do not tell us it is you. We shall do a Gwyn Turing test and see of we recognize you in him![2010/12/07 16:23]  CrystalShard Foo: I see the avatar is the way a person chooses to represent their personality.[2010/12/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Lem! So that might make all the difference really[2010/12/07 16:23]  any1 Gynoid: <— has to roll to 16 Days.. thx … Psychologist friends… and ur absurb nudity and stuff.. i tried REAL hard not to perm cam U! Tee Hee Hee![2010/12/07 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Zo, me? Yeah, a fair amount; but interestingly, more Huntress than me[2010/12/07 16:23]  Lem Skall: people who are new at Thinkers are sometimes shocked by what I say and think of me as very rude[2010/12/07 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: For some reason I always type thing when I mean think…. heh[2010/12/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie — I’m pretty sure you would.[2010/12/07 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Writing style and so forth.[2010/12/07 16:24]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, i’ll do the thinging around here. ::giggles::[2010/12/07 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, good point, Lem…. you’re right…[2010/12/07 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so perhaps that was the explanation….[2010/12/07 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah Me: ‘Hey you are Gwyn’ Male avvie: Me, pfffft no lol!’.[2010/12/07 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can bring in a *female* alt then, and see what happens. We can exclude the gender issue, and just focus on the “known” issue.[2010/12/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie… right![2010/12/07 16:25]  CrystalShard Foo: The virtual world is a literal mindscape. You represent your personality with a visual form. Your IRL body doesn’t have much to do with it.[2010/12/07 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Come as a genderless blob![2010/12/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh.[2010/12/07 16:25]  CrystalShard Foo: I was a planet for awhile![2010/12/07 16:25]  Phedre Dassin: hehe[2010/12/07 16:25]  Phedre Dassin: Sometimes I enjoy being an unrezzed cloud[2010/12/07 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I have a Platonic Solid avatar[2010/12/07 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But since ppl know it’s me, and I have a girl’s name, they still trat it as female[2010/12/07 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: It is quite pretty. Better than being…ugh…Ruthed![2010/12/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Crystal, but if you keep using the same ‘visual form’, people will ‘tag’ their mental image of who is “Crystal” to that avatar[2010/12/07 16:26]  Lem Skall: I wouldn’t be able to tell that Rhiannon is a female name[2010/12/07 16:26]  CrystalShard Foo: And that’s perfectly natural. This form is the one I feel the most comfortable with as representing who I am.[2010/12/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Crystal[2010/12/07 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh, As far as I am concerned, that person sitting over there with the red hair, that IS Gwyn,[2010/12/07 16:26]  Luisa Bourgoin: should do a black box test isnide some opensim, named one two three four[2010/12/07 16:26]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I find myself doing it too; I know one person who is male half the time and female half the time, and I treat him differently[2010/12/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that what you see is a bunch of pixels, though, Extie ;)[2010/12/07 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And there was a guy at my group (Patrick, Aziel, Atari) who changed to a woman last night[2010/12/07 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Treated him as a woman[2010/12/07 16:27]  CrystalShard Foo: How differently do you treat them?[2010/12/07 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, rats![2010/12/07 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: My client is here[2010/12/07 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I have tor run![2010/12/07 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: RL calls![2010/12/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that bunch iof pixels triggers your mental reepresentation of whom you label as being “Gwyn”[2010/12/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi… see you :)[2010/12/07 16:27]  Lem Skall: hmmmm, what kind of client is that?[2010/12/07 16:27]  Luisa Bourgoin: for testing with Gwyn we would have to tuck the carpets away[2010/12/07 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: Sometimes it seems to me that certain types of avatars are a form of ‘hiding’ one’s personality characteristics (their choices). And it is more difficult to interact with them. Same is true for those with little to no information on their profiles.[2010/12/07 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: by by, Gwyn[2010/12/07 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, i’ll let you think about *that*[2010/12/07 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Well when you read a story you treat all the characters as different people with different personaliies, knowledge etc. Not like they are all just alts of the author.[2010/12/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What kinds of avatars, Scarp?[2010/12/07 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me giggles[2010/12/07 16:28]  CrystalShard Foo: That’s a common factor on online interactions Scarp but the longer you’re there, the easier it is for you to read between the lines.[2010/12/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like, platonic solids? :)[2010/12/07 16:28]  CrystalShard Foo: Sometimes their attempt to blur something makes what they’re trying to hide stand out more.[2010/12/07 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: I like playing around with different and strange avatars, but I don’t want to disrupt other people’s perceptions of my identity too much.[2010/12/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wow interesting, Crystal!![2010/12/07 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: An example of a hiding avatar is someone who represents as a plywood cube for example. or a colored ball…..[2010/12/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One day you should analse me :)[2010/12/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Scarp…. that’s what I was thinking….[2010/12/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm :)[2010/12/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gosh, there is really a LOT to research about in SL[2010/12/07 16:29]  CrystalShard Foo: I guess the easiest and most basic example would be the quote “No drama” or “I dont let drama interfere with me” in profiles. You can easily tell these are the people who tend to engage or generate most of that drama themselves despite their attempt to distance themselves from it.[2010/12/07 16:29]  CrystalShard Foo: The mere act of trying to istance themselves from the topic shows they are knee-deep in it.[2010/12/07 16:30]  Phedre Dassin: Good insight[2010/12/07 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually Zoe, a lot of people are the same. They are quite happy to experiment on different appearances, but mostly people hardly change personality at all. And those who do, most find it to be reducing their enjoyment of SL and they quit.[2010/12/07 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The only studies I saw were related to a) gender; b) degree of look (e.g. newbie look vs. fashionista); and c) the degree of reality vs. fantasy — but there were no extreme examples (e.g. cubes, floating dishes, clouds, etc.)[2010/12/07 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: I am very engaged by people who make their avatars very detailed and carry a lot of accessories.[2010/12/07 16:30]  CrystalShard Foo: /me is not carrying enough accessories :([2010/12/07 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: Ha ha Crystal The I don’t do drama profile people are ALWAYS the drama queens![2010/12/07 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp, all studies showed exactly the same[2010/12/07 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I meant about the kind of people you get engaged to; not about the drama queens)[2010/12/07 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: drama should become a checkbox cathegory inside skills section[2010/12/07 16:32]  Lem Skall: Scarp, you got engaged?[2010/12/07 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m impressed by those avatars, but also a bit daunted. (And my graphics card is thankful that all avs aren’t outfitted like them.)[2010/12/07 16:32]  Lem Skall: /me YAY CONGRATULATIONS![2010/12/07 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: hahah![2010/12/07 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: not to talk behind Rhiannon’s back, but I notice she pays a LOT of attention to her shoes and hair…….[2010/12/07 16:32]  Aziel Sigall: I don’t think we can tell much about what a person says in their profile[2010/12/07 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm :)[2010/12/07 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I bet he married that Artcrash Exonarr. She always seemed like Scarp’s soulmate to me.[2010/12/07 16:33]  Aziel Sigall: I know people who say they hate drama, but ultimately they won’t turn away from a friend who needs emotional support[2010/12/07 16:33]  Scarp Godenot: ha ha[2010/12/07 16:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: scarp, those are the parts we choose ourselfes … LL didn’t provided neither[2010/12/07 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aziel, I don’t think we can tell much about what a person says about themselves in general ;)[2010/12/07 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie[2010/12/07 16:33]  Scarp Godenot: ArtCrash is a fashion maven! ha ha[2010/12/07 16:33]  Aziel Sigall: I think “profiles”[2010/12/07 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: I generally look at what groups they belong to.[2010/12/07 16:33]  Aziel Sigall: say nothing about ourselves[2010/12/07 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I bet she knows his mind as if it were her own.[2010/12/07 16:33]  Aziel Sigall: groups are useless[2010/12/07 16:33]  Aziel Sigall: profiles are useless[2010/12/07 16:33]  Aziel Sigall: only discourse shows us for what we are[2010/12/07 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is wisdom in that![2010/12/07 16:34]  Aziel Sigall: You can’t tell anything about me from my profile[2010/12/07 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree.[2010/12/07 16:34]  Aziel Sigall: believe that[2010/12/07 16:34]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve had some frustrations since the option to hide groups came along.[2010/12/07 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree too[2010/12/07 16:34]  Aziel Sigall: its why I hide all my groups[2010/12/07 16:34]  CrystalShard Foo: Actually… I’ve noticed profiles and groups hint on discource. Granted, it’s not a full view – but it IS a pretty effective preview.[2010/12/07 16:34]  Aziel Sigall: because I don’t need people making stupid assumptions[2010/12/07 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see them as “icebreakers”[2010/12/07 16:34]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, we can tell a lot about what people SAY, whether it is about themselves or not[2010/12/07 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But not much more.[2010/12/07 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe Lem, I was being mostly ironic :)[2010/12/07 16:35]  CrystalShard Foo: I wouldn’t go as far as saying they show wether someone is a good or a bad person or worth talking to[2010/12/07 16:35]  CrystalShard Foo: But they do tend to give you a working preview.[2010/12/07 16:35]  Aziel Sigall: it’s never good to judge a person on their groups[2010/12/07 16:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I meant that we cannot take what they say literally, but just interpret why they say it.[2010/12/07 16:35]  Luisa Bourgoin: you can express yourself using profile, appearance, behavior … what else?[2010/12/07 16:35]  Zobeid Zuma: If somebody has a blank profile, it doesn’t give much to work with. Where are you from? What’s the weather like? :P[2010/12/07 16:35]  Lem Skall: by the company you keep[2010/12/07 16:36]  Phedre Dassin: Luisa, I’d say by how you treat people.[2010/12/07 16:36]  CrystalShard Foo: If someone has a blank profile, they tend to be new ;)[2010/12/07 16:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Not always.[2010/12/07 16:36]  Aziel Sigall: who cares what the weather is like[2010/12/07 16:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Exactly, Aziel.[2010/12/07 16:36]  Scarp Godenot: I find looking at someones picks on their profile as very telling of where their head is at.[2010/12/07 16:36]  CrystalShard Foo: Unless they have a line of text going “This space has been intentionally kept blank”[2010/12/07 16:36]  Extropia DaSilva: *Having looked at Aziel’s profile, Extie does not know much, other than Aziel is familiar with at least one poem by William Blake*[2010/12/07 16:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That says a lot :)[2010/12/07 16:36]  Lem Skall: then no one cares about global warming[2010/12/07 16:36]  CrystalShard Foo: Ye gods. I haven’t updated my PIcks in 5 years. I bet they’re all outdated except for my shop.[2010/12/07 16:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha yesterday I had to update one of mine, too, Crystal… :)[2010/12/07 16:37]  Zobeid Zuma: I use Picks as my favorites list.[2010/12/07 16:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A friend complained that the island didn’t appear on the map[2010/12/07 16:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Guess what?[2010/12/07 16:37]  Zobeid Zuma: But they became outdated while I was using viewer 2 with its favorites bar at the top.[2010/12/07 16:37]  Lem Skall: time? poem?[2010/12/07 16:37]  Extropia DaSilva: My time is up![2010/12/07 16:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my.[2010/12/07 16:37]  Scarp Godenot: If someone’s picks are all about their friends and lovers, I know that they are in SL for mainly social interaction reasons.[2010/12/07 16:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This meeting needs a sequel![2010/12/07 16:37]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: WE LOVE DEATH!

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3 Responses to THINKERS DEC 07 2010: PERFECT ME!

  1. Archmage Atlantis (R. Batts) says:

    why can’t we all just get along…….oh right, because we keep living in our own slime if we do
    Arch

  2. Tateru Nino says:

    I’ll add a clarification here.

    What makes people uncomfortable is my body language – so I’m not a better or worse person online or AFK. It’s just in SL, you don’t see my body language, and thus it doesn’t make you uncomfortable.

    The same would be true of someone with some manner of physical disfigurement – or perhaps even the colour of their skin.

    So, it’s not about whether I’m a better or worse person (I maintain that I’m the *same* person), but about whether your perceptions are coloured or uncoloured by physical circumstances.

  3. Thanks for the clarification, Tateru.

    The philosopher Herbert Mead talked about ‘symbolic interactionism’: the is the attitudes others hold towards us; how they react in our presence, that provides the looking glass in which we see our self.

    Suppose that, for whatever reason, online interaction creates a social network that holds up a looking glass in which a very positive ‘self’ is reflected. Terms like ‘popular’, ‘beloved’, ‘respected’ are commonly associated with this online personae, building up a very positive reputation that gives this person very good standing in their online community.

    Suppose also that in RL the person who created this online identity lives in a society that reflects a self that is not as positive. In time the gap between the on and offline personaes may become so wide that it becomes all but impossible to integrate the successes won online with the RL self. Sherry Turkle wrote about a RL person called ‘Stewart’ who was painfully shy but who created a MUD character ‘Achilles’ who had a lot of self-confidence; who was outgoing and beloved. Turkle said that “Stewart cannot learn from his character Achilles’ experiences and social success because they are too different from the things of which he believes himself capable. Despite his efforts to turn Achilles into Stewart, Stewart has split off his strengths and sees them as possible only for Achilles in the MUD…Like an unsuccessful psychotherapy, MUDing has not helped Stewart bring these good experiences inside himself or integrate them into his own self-image”.

    So I think there are cases in which a positive online identity is integrated with the RL self. Achievements can flow both ways because the individual has a subjective sense that online/offline is the ‘same self’…or at least similar enough. But there are also circumstances in which the online self feels subjectively ‘split off’ from the offline self, and achievements pile up on one side much more than the other. Subjectively, and also as far as symbolic interactionism is concerned, this creates two different selves, one of which is better than the other.

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