Thinkers Nov 23 2010: AFRAID OF THE MASK?

Arisia Vita at Thinkers

 

Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is ‘AFRAID OF THE MASK’?[2010/11/23 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the old viewers need two avatar names, so now that single names are allowed they have to add the last name Resident to those names. The viewer two based viewers don’t need that.[2010/11/23 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: According to Hamlet Au, the thing that is preventing wide-spread adoption of SL is the fact that avatars are like full-body costumes that totally obscure the person beneath. If it were possible to see the person behind the costume, it would make socializing easier and online worlds would increase in popularity. Is he right?[2010/11/23 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: well is he?[2010/11/23 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: I think is 100% wrong[2010/11/23 15:35]  Bridge McMahon: agree[2010/11/23 15:35]  Lem Skall: first, I don’t think he expressed it as “preventing widespread adoption”[2010/11/23 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: anyone disagree? Do! Not much of an argument if not:)[2010/11/23 15:35]  Luisa Bourgoin: 110%. easy to prove[2010/11/23 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Avs do have faces, of course. :)[2010/11/23 15:35]  Lem Skall: he has a p[oint though[2010/11/23 15:35]  Bridge McMahon: with Khannea I mean[2010/11/23 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: I think we should facilitate tools that allow us to express whatever we wish express[2010/11/23 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: whoops…. sorry for being late![2010/11/23 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hamlet has no evidence for that particular GUESS I’m thinking. I think it is a combination of things that reduces the available interested parties.[2010/11/23 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: So you think he might be on to something, Lem?[2010/11/23 15:36]  Lem Skall: it would definitely be different[2010/11/23 15:36]  Lem Skall: and it may be more inline with what the mainstream wants[2010/11/23 15:36]  Archmage Atlantis: There are plenty of text only places where real identities and names are not disclosed.[2010/11/23 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: I love Gwyn’s idea of ‘self entertainers’ being the primary SL market.[2010/11/23 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Hamlet is making a suggestion that, if it were true, would inmply that SL would be succesful IF we only find ways to curtail anonymous selfexpression[2010/11/23 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: His evidence was a party where people were stand-offish..he says because they wore full-body costumes.[2010/11/23 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: This is fascism[2010/11/23 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hail![2010/11/23 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: (Hello Gwyn!)[2010/11/23 15:36]  Lem Skall: heil![2010/11/23 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Odd we dont see that during carnivakl[2010/11/23 15:37]  Luisa Bourgoin: there is often that advertising “beeing part of not just beeing there” (this probably doesnt translate into english). totally usual, feeling a stranger at parties[2010/11/23 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: The whole history of the internet has been one of anonymous ‘handles’.[2010/11/23 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: /me shows Trophy a strange and exotic land, rio de janeiro\[2010/11/23 15:37]  Archmage Atlantis: Hmm,, my opinion is that the exact opposite of what Hamlet is stating is true[2010/11/23 15:37]  Lem Skall: pretty certainly there is some scientific support that people socialize differently if there is some association with a RL person[2010/11/23 15:38]  Orfeu Miles: “the thing that is preventing wide-spread adoption of SL is the fact that”…. you have to use your imagination here and be somewhat self-entertaining[2010/11/23 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My opinion is the same too… ;)[2010/11/23 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: yikes[2010/11/23 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well not really, Orfeu. Hamlet is just projecting his own views and generalising them ;)[2010/11/23 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Hooorah! Rhi finally manages to TP in![2010/11/23 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me looks up[2010/11/23 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: hiya va… Rhi[2010/11/23 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Rhi :D[2010/11/23 15:38]  Lem Skall: hi Rhi[2010/11/23 15:38]  Orfeu Miles: Like he always does Gwynn…that is his job[2010/11/23 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I don’t see her though)[2010/11/23 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Orfeu![2010/11/23 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi ivy[2010/11/23 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Gwyn[2010/11/23 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi lem[2010/11/23 15:39]  Lem Skall: Hamlet’s “job” is with BM[2010/11/23 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, I think what he observed is analogous to the way we treat different types of avs in SL. Let’s say, “normal” and friendly-looking human avs versus a weird-looking alien.[2010/11/23 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Lem…. that too, yes :)[2010/11/23 15:39]  Archmage Atlantis: Please don’t stand in the fountain, Rhi…..oh right, no fountains here[2010/11/23 15:39]  Orfeu Miles: Well his broader job as a journalist is to diseminate his opinion …No??[2010/11/23 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: What I want to know is…why does 1st life profile not serve the purpose of letting you see who is behind the ‘mask’? If most were in favour of this, surely most would include an RL photo. Is that the case or no?[2010/11/23 15:40]  Lem Skall: Hamlet journalist? haha[2010/11/23 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: ( who wants to see Rhi on pole say “aye” )[2010/11/23 15:40]  Luisa Bourgoin: aye, arr[2010/11/23 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: The topic is masks, right?[2010/11/23 15:40]  Archmage Atlantis: Actually each group and subgroup is slightly different in emphasis and anonymity[2010/11/23 15:40]  Sine Wave Pole Dance:  Loaded – 11 Animations .[2010/11/23 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Factors preventing mass adoption. 1) high end computer and connection needed 2) high learning curve 3) not clear what to do here at first 4) Short attention span people incapable of it.[2010/11/23 15:40]  Orfeu Miles: Extie many people have 1st life photo’s…but do you belive ti is them???[2010/11/23 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Orfeu does…that is one…[2010/11/23 15:41]  Bridge McMahon: @ArtCrash, we are early, it wont always be limited by technology[2010/11/23 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, Art, if you wrote an article stating that you’d sound way more clever (and be less conflictual) than Hamlet… ;)[2010/11/23 15:41]  Archmage Atlantis: SL is a very diverse place, to generalize like that on the effect of avs is pretty much meaninglless[2010/11/23 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Me? I believe everything an SL resident claims and my primary thinks it is all lies.[2010/11/23 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Especially the stuff I say.[2010/11/23 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Why not accept people for what they represent themselves to be?[2010/11/23 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: I went into an unfamiliar coffee shop today, and it seemed like a nice place. And the first person I met had a little generic alien sort of av. And. . . I was wary.[2010/11/23 15:41]  Orfeu Miles: Lol good point extie[2010/11/23 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Bridge, I know we are early and tech will increase in power, two of the four factors will not change with that.[2010/11/23 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Zobeid, so you’re afraid of a person cuz of their avi?[2010/11/23 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: We chatted and he was OK. But I hadn’t been sure at first.[2010/11/23 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. Let Facebook collapse, and people will strat thinking again if putting *everything* about their RL online was such a good idea at all.[2010/11/23 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *start[2010/11/23 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: No. I didn’t say afraid. Did I say afraid?[2010/11/23 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: I said “wary”.[2010/11/23 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW Hamlet is not against roleplaying or identity exploration…or is he?[2010/11/23 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, but he doesn’t think it’s “serious”![2010/11/23 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: You said ‘wary’ Zobeid. Isn’t that the same thing?[2010/11/23 15:42]  Lem Skall: Rhi, communication is conditioned at a low level and it cannot be controlled and formed to behave differently than it already does[2010/11/23 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: No, it’s not.[2010/11/23 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: I have a different idea than Mister Piglet. My idea is that SL is too difficult for the percentage of the median population that while having a computer either is too busy, OR is not very snmart. And sense non busy people tend to be less snart we find that either smart or buysy people have someting else to do than play SL all day. This is no problem. Makle SL gradially(and nondisruptiuvely) more interesting to people who ordinarily watch porn (you know I am talking about you you pervert) all day (and as a result are a bit dimwitted), or people who watch soap – and as intercaes become simnpler, PC ‘s cheaper and more comfortable, SL will attain (sniles as Ivy) more penetration.[2010/11/23 15:42]  Luisa Bourgoin: probably crashed on that mentioned party example, later the eening inside some RP sim, too- Poor Hamlet[2010/11/23 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, and i’m not getting on the pole without Extropia’s saying its ok; its her discussion[2010/11/23 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (lol RHi)[2010/11/23 15:43]  Lem Skall: we instinctively and subconsciously react to certain subliminal messages[2010/11/23 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: I wish I were the pole.[2010/11/23 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: LOL[2010/11/23 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Avs are an art form, they’re very expressive. I’m a big advocate of judging people by them. :)[2010/11/23 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. Sorry[2010/11/23 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie[2010/11/23 15:43]  Orfeu Miles: There are certain sims here…coughs…where nearly all the females have 1st life photos…and co-incidentally…they all look like supermodels…Who knew SL was so popular among the supermodel community[2010/11/23 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Leila[2010/11/23 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes you may, Rhi.[2010/11/23 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: IMAGINE THIS: SL is a web app on Facebook, Just like Farmville. This tech is here NOW. have you tried the Web browser beta? VERY IMPRESSIVE![2010/11/23 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah Botgirl blogged about it, She loves it.[2010/11/23 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: I knew it was going to be about penetration… ;)[2010/11/23 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: Then attend my meetings once in a while Trophy and I’ll arrange seating arrangements UNDER the pole with a glass stage above you,[2010/11/23 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve read some critique about facebook today (again), that it (and other centralized social netwroks) tend to divide the web[2010/11/23 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, Ivy.[2010/11/23 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Last time I attended your sessions I walked funny for a month.[2010/11/23 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie!!!![2010/11/23 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: I can also make a snappy comment about dissemination if you prefer?[2010/11/23 15:45]  Orfeu Miles: LOL Extie[2010/11/23 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Khannea :D[2010/11/23 15:45]  Lem Skall: Rhi, that was related to “Why not accept people for what they represent themselves to be?” I am saying that doing that takes a conscious leap beyond our subconscious processing[2010/11/23 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So ultimately it’s all about sex, right? ;)[2010/11/23 15:45]  Leila Boa: sorry I am so late…[2010/11/23 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sex with masks, at that.[2010/11/23 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kinky mmmh[2010/11/23 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I see a trend for all of the social networks to link to each other seamlessly, Big trend[2010/11/23 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: So why do we think Hamlet does not include profiles as a means to see who is the primary?[2010/11/23 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, i see; and ur right; ppl do take ur representation as real, as the subconscious wants[2010/11/23 15:46]  Orfeu Miles: Ancient rites of dionysus..and theatre…demanded masks[2010/11/23 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So there is a sense in which our ‘masks’ here *R* ourselves[2010/11/23 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: next step would be banning all alt accounts[2010/11/23 15:46]  Claraval Clarence: hi all[2010/11/23 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Claraval[2010/11/23 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: hello![2010/11/23 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: or none are 😉 But that’s philosophy lol[2010/11/23 15:46]  Lem Skall: Rhi, it doesn’t do it fully[2010/11/23 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, I love to push people into SL who have absolutely no doubts that there is an intrinsic self. I tell them to join SL for a few months, talk with people (instead of just…. well, having cybersex with them) and your sense of self will be shattere[2010/11/23 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry, high packet loss today; all my messages are coming out of order!)[2010/11/23 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem not fully, perhaps, but close enough that this is an emotional reality and even if it doesn’t mesh with rl, it has its own character, and you can be a mask in this realm as well as FL[2010/11/23 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey I know this club >> http://gallery.me.com/creatrix#100569&view=grid&bgcolor=black&sel=2%5B2010/11/23 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie: I think Hamles is just plain wrong. I see most people on social networks I use hiding their identities at least to a small degree. I think that is just natural, because we KNOW what prejudices people have towards us and want to avoid those.[2010/11/23 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: Nice build[2010/11/23 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Eh? Not sure what you mean by that Gwen.[2010/11/23 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Sense of self shattered?[2010/11/23 15:48]  Archmage Atlantis: Interesting, thinking back to how I selected the parts of my primary av, some I matched to my physical characteristics, some I matched to my preferences if I could have them[2010/11/23 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: only clever people do that[2010/11/23 15:48]  Claraval Clarence: and i think the same, yes[2010/11/23 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Zob[2010/11/23 15:48]  Archmage Atlantis: So, my av is both a reflection of the concious and the subconcious[2010/11/23 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that people like Hamlet are the ones going “omg all those people are role-playing, I’m the only one that is still stuck to my own self”[2010/11/23 15:49]  Archmage Atlantis: Well, my primary……..the rest are animals[2010/11/23 15:49]  Claraval Clarence: yeeees[2010/11/23 15:49]  Leila Boa: I agree…[2010/11/23 15:49]  Orfeu Miles: I think SL allows us to fully reveal our 1st life…either as a smash and grab raid…or a slow dance of the seven veils[2010/11/23 15:49]  Bridge McMahon: Arch there are many studies indicating people tend to creating an avatar like themself, small adjustments until it “looks right”[2010/11/23 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not know about that Gwyn. I try my best to show that the self is a fictional construct and that mutltiplicity is normal, but then Hiro Pendradon replies with an equally persuasive argument that the core self is real.[2010/11/23 15:49]  Luisa Bourgoin: there is enough market share for Facebook like VRs and Sl in it’s current form[2010/11/23 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: I LOVE LOVE LOVE the fact that I don’t know people’s age, race, religion or body size in a situation like this. It makes it easier to avoid our OWN prejudices……[2010/11/23 15:49]  Luisa Bourgoin: since they dont mingle that well[2010/11/23 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It goes deeper than that, Orfeu. Almost everybody that has spent 2 minutes thinking about the subject will go “wait…. who*really* am I?”[2010/11/23 15:49]  Lem Skall: I think that we ALL enjoy being anonymous (behind a mask) but not necessarily others being behind a mask too[2010/11/23 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Every alt i have and every avatar expresses a little different aspect of me; is there really a mask here?[2010/11/23 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi atrai![2010/11/23 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Or just multiple representations?[2010/11/23 15:50]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi guys )[2010/11/23 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hiro’s arguments are wishful thinking, Extie :)[2010/11/23 15:50]  Claraval Clarence: hi guys[2010/11/23 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: hello:)[2010/11/23 15:50]  Ataraxia Azemus: 🙂 too[2010/11/23 15:50]  Claraval Clarence: gwyneth i am with ya[2010/11/23 15:50]  Naomi Skosh: people still get judged by how well they speak english here[2010/11/23 15:50]  Orfeu Miles: Slef as a distribted entity yadayada ;-)[2010/11/23 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: hiya Atari[2010/11/23 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: multiple representations = no intrinsic self[2010/11/23 15:50]  Bridge McMahon: only when it’s english world prime time, not so when europe is[2010/11/23 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Orfeu: right! I like that![2010/11/23 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, and if that’s true, then there is no ‘mask,'[2010/11/23 15:51]  Luisa Bourgoin: Naomi, most people type gibberish! *points* at Orfeu[2010/11/23 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: But I never seem to persuade him, and I really try my best and bring all the evidence from psychology and neuroscience and philosophical arguments I know. BUt it has little effect.[2010/11/23 15:51]  Claraval Clarence: i think like gwyn[2010/11/23 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Half the people in society is under IQ100. How many people are IQ >110, which is arguably a fair entry point for SL? Hey I know IQ is a crap systen iof cognitive assessnentm and YES I dont want SL dumbed down,,, but these may be the facts[2010/11/23 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or everything is a mask, Rhi.[2010/11/23 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: There can be deception, i grant, but the representation itself is not[2010/11/23 15:51]  Claraval Clarence: art is art[2010/11/23 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welcome to the club, Ckara 🙂 We’re 800 millions and growing ;)[2010/11/23 15:51]  Orfeu Miles: The problem is with groups like this….we are in danger of a big circle-jerk congratulating ourselves on our great imagination, and superior intelligence…laughs[2010/11/23 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Clara[2010/11/23 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, either way, though, the mere fact of repreentaion isn’t deceptive and expresses the self as it presents itself here[2010/11/23 15:51]  Lem Skall: Rhi and others, what you’re saying is that you appreciate being behind a mask yourself but it doesn’t say anything about your interaction with OTHER people who are behind masks themselves[2010/11/23 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh I’d like SL dumbed down, more dumb people to buy my products :)[2010/11/23 15:51]  Leila Boa: I agree with Clara[2010/11/23 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Sometimes une pipe is just une pipe[2010/11/23 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Self is an agglomeration of characteristics and representations to others. I think Gwyn’s point it that it is NOT STATIC. But every evolving.[2010/11/23 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it in fact contrary to the whole point of ‘Second Life’?…Hamlet’s proposal, that is?[2010/11/23 15:51]  Bridge McMahon: mask or no mask, the heart remains the same[2010/11/23 15:51]  Leila Boa: WHY IS SHE DANCIGN AT THE POLe?????[2010/11/23 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Bridge, very true[2010/11/23 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Congratulations on your intelligence and imagination Orfeu!!![2010/11/23 15:52]  Claraval Clarence: yes leila[2010/11/23 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Because I said she could.[2010/11/23 15:52]  Claraval Clarence: it is disturbing me to hell[2010/11/23 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not static and not even intrinsic, Art.[2010/11/23 15:52]  Archmage Atlantis: You can’t educate a brick, Extie[2010/11/23 15:52]  Claraval Clarence: gwyneth, art is art[2010/11/23 15:52]  Leila Boa: he is just….distracting this one….[2010/11/23 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: agreed, Rhi. It doesn’t make any sense of talking about “masks” in that case.[2010/11/23 15:52]  Orfeu Miles: Awww thx art……glows with pride and self-esteem[2010/11/23 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Not true bridge. In fact I have seen some weird people out their latvh on to an ideal and change temselves as to attain that ideal[2010/11/23 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha ha[2010/11/23 15:52]  Luisa Bourgoin: or even a brick can be leveled above brick’s average performance[2010/11/23 15:52]  Claraval Clarence: i dont get the point of all of you people. waht is theprolbme? art is aart[2010/11/23 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Deception needs a subject and an object :)[2010/11/23 15:53]  Leila Boa: well then what about the other half of peole with IQ > 100???[2010/11/23 15:53]  Lem Skall: /me is slipping a $2o note to Rhi[2010/11/23 15:53]  Bridge McMahon: lol Lem[2010/11/23 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is a problem?[2010/11/23 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: making typos when typing with one hand Claraval?[2010/11/23 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: that’s actually encouraging, I think![2010/11/23 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: But it does in the sense that we are all costumes ‘worn’ by our primaries.[2010/11/23 15:53]  Claraval Clarence: idk…it feel s like..if not i would be at home sleeping[2010/11/23 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, you *can* tip me if you want; just clikc ‘pay’ on my pie chart[2010/11/23 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/archive/NATL-Octo-Mom-Angelina-to-Share-Mag-Cover.html%5B2010/11/23 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me flutters her eyelashes at Lem[2010/11/23 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean about trying to attain a role model by changing one’s ‘self'[2010/11/23 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha ha[2010/11/23 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Then what does INceotion need?[2010/11/23 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: THANK YOU, AIRCRASH![2010/11/23 15:54]  Leila Boa: ok let’s stick to the topic???[2010/11/23 15:54]  Claraval Clarence: u cannot cahnge urself, gwyn![2010/11/23 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: wonder of the spinning top ever did topple?[2010/11/23 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I most certainly can ;)[2010/11/23 15:54]  Claraval Clarence: you cannot[2010/11/23 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, Gwyn, not the same thing, exactly, but you can change your self by changing ur representation here[2010/11/23 15:54]  Lem Skall: hey, Rhi, can I try that pole?[2010/11/23 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mentally and physically; physically is more expensive.[2010/11/23 15:54]  Leila Boa: Why is she dacing at the pole???[2010/11/23 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: The topic of whether Hamlet Au knows what he is talking about?[2010/11/23 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Sean![2010/11/23 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can rezz more Lem :)[2010/11/23 15:55]  Sean Gorham: Hello Rhiannon![2010/11/23 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ivy, and steal my thunder?[2010/11/23 15:55]  Luisa Bourgoin: oh no! dont focus so much on Hamlet if he just tries slicing out SL marketshare[2010/11/23 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: ha![2010/11/23 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: You can change yourself because the self is the result of dynamic brain processes. The brain evolves hence the mind evolves hence the self changes.[2010/11/23 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the answer to that, Art, is “no”. 😉 But we’re starting from that assumption and continue the discussion where Hamlet left it… tee hee[2010/11/23 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear, Extie[2010/11/23 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s exactly my point.[2010/11/23 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: THANK YOU, KHANNEA![2010/11/23 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: he heee[2010/11/23 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu know your Thomas Metzinger I see, Gwyn![2010/11/23 15:56]  Archmage Atlantis: Lem, what I want to know is where you slipped the $20, the options are less that the usual pole dancer affords[2010/11/23 15:56]  Lem Skall: people, you keep talking about YOURSELF being behind a mask but not about how you feel about other people who are behind a mask[2010/11/23 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, one of the things about SL, is you can change yourself easily and then change back[2010/11/23 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really, Extie, it’s just *obvious* for me.[2010/11/23 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (never heard of him 😉 )[2010/11/23 15:56]  Claraval Clarence: i feeel good for them….they r probably too fat and ugly to show them sleves in real life[2010/11/23 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, well, if Gwyn is right that there is no intrinsic self, then I feel we should relate to the presentations[2010/11/23 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: The shoe, obviously, Archmage… ha ha ha[2010/11/23 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Well he wrote the book, I mean, literally, wrote the book on the self as an illusion.[2010/11/23 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, all I can observe is my mind 😉 What I can imagine is that other people’s minds work the same way.[2010/11/23 15:57]  Orfeu Miles: Well…its not like we dont use masks in RL…what the hell is a personality…but a mask ( persona)[2010/11/23 15:57]  Archmage Atlantis: Right, Art….my bad[2010/11/23 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I’m sure he got that idea from somewhere ;)[2010/11/23 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, Lem, Gwyn, i do think we make conncection shere, so the mind does connect with other minds[2010/11/23 15:57]  Lem Skall: but that is not what Hamlet is talking about, he is talking about how we feel about OTHERS[2010/11/23 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: I think of Gwyn as real.[2010/11/23 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, a good point; but if you live in a world where *all* is presentation, doesn’t it beome ordinary?[2010/11/23 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So? Lem, my ‘self’ is fluid, and I have no reason to believe that others (assuming they all have human brains 😉 ) aren’t[2010/11/23 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I think of you as real, Ex, and everyone esle here[2010/11/23 15:58]  Luisa Bourgoin: usually you don’t make yourself an imagination of faces isnide a conversation. you construct personalitys. the face beeing obviously talking in front of yours[2010/11/23 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Rhi![2010/11/23 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly![2010/11/23 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: But I do stress that I am not real.[2010/11/23 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa, that’s so true :)[2010/11/23 15:58]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, but I would relate to you very differently if I knew you also in RL[2010/11/23 15:58]  Ataraxia Azemus: I do think most people are turned off by anonymity, but I also think it presents some unique opportunities and most people share way too much of their RL way too easily online, anyway.[2010/11/23 15:58]  Khannea Suntzu: I dont care what is alleged to be real or not.[2010/11/23 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: So Lem, good point. So if we knew more about who we were interacting with at the start, we would be more able to find people we can relate to more easily. I can see that idea….[2010/11/23 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, you are real, as a manifestation of your paratar[2010/11/23 15:58]  Luisa Bourgoin: that habbit doesnt change that much inside SL[2010/11/23 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe Extie — you’re like the old paradox: “I’m not lying”. Is that statement true or false? ;)[2010/11/23 15:58]  Khannea Suntzu: meatatar[2010/11/23 15:58]  Claraval Clarence: SL is art…art is art[2010/11/23 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: the way you relate is up to you lol[2010/11/23 15:58]  Leila Boa: TRUE Clara[2010/11/23 15:58]  Lem Skall: sl is NOT art[2010/11/23 15:58]  Leila Boa: You are so right Claraval[2010/11/23 15:59]  Claraval Clarence: thank you[2010/11/23 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: The cake is a lie![2010/11/23 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: People keep talking about me and saying I am me.[2010/11/23 15:59]  Leila Boa: where did you get this idea?[2010/11/23 15:59]  Claraval Clarence: sometimes simpliest things are away from our minds[2010/11/23 15:59]  Ataraxia Azemus: SL has art in it, but.[2010/11/23 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, that’s in a profile of an alt I made[2010/11/23 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha[2010/11/23 15:59]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, it is up to my subconscious mostly[2010/11/23 15:59]  Leila Boa: I don’t like simple things[2010/11/23 15:59]  Claraval Clarence: yeah[2010/11/23 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins @ Rhi[2010/11/23 15:59]  Claraval Clarence: it is simple and complicated at the same time[2010/11/23 15:59]  Claraval Clarence: like maths[2010/11/23 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: All the following statements are true: All the preceding statements, including the first one are false[2010/11/23 15:59]  Claraval Clarence: and physincs[2010/11/23 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree only to a degree, Lem. It’s not “all” subconscious.[2010/11/23 15:59]  Claraval Clarence: a simple equation can tell a lot[2010/11/23 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: I think art is by and large play involving more money and skill and originality[2010/11/23 15:59]  Orfeu Miles: If all we do is chat…how much do you need tp know…if you want me to transfer $50K..thats another thing…( NIgerian Lawyers notwithstanding)[2010/11/23 15:59]  Claraval Clarence: me with my poor words i can tell more taht ou can possibly understand[2010/11/23 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I lie on the border between fantasy and reality, a border which is fluid and indistinct and apt to be redefined as certain technologies redefine notions of ‘nature’ ‘technology’ ‘person’ and ‘self’.[2010/11/23 16:00]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Claraval, good point, and oh, does matter wear a mask because it appears solid but is mostly empty space?[2010/11/23 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “subconscious” is a useful placeholder to say: “everything that I don’t want to believe about myself and want to put the blame elesewhere” ;)[2010/11/23 16:00]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, lol[2010/11/23 16:00]  Leila Boa: Claraval you are so right[2010/11/23 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, I think we all are; some are just more honest than others and admit it :)[2010/11/23 16:00]  Orfeu Miles: MMmm perhaps shadow is better gwynn[2010/11/23 16:00]  Bridge McMahon: great saying Extropia[2010/11/23 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m fine with shadow.[2010/11/23 16:00]  Claraval Clarence: does it? rhiannon…leila…..we all wear a mask…ALWAYS….and why not to keep it simple?[2010/11/23 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, there are levels of honesty here. There’s the honsety between you and your paratar, and the honest of your projection vis a vis others[2010/11/23 16:01]  Orfeu Miles: Extie..sounds like an intro to the twilight zone LOL[2010/11/23 16:01]  Luisa Bourgoin: not always, taken “Philip Face Mask” just for today..[2010/11/23 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If we all wear a mask always, isn’t that the same thing as saying: “the self is just a mask”? ;)[2010/11/23 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmm shadow is OK but I am kinda itching for liquid particle effects[2010/11/23 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Orifeu, i was just thinking that![2010/11/23 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Piaget said that infants cannot distinguish between their self and their mother. I like to think residents who say ‘I see no difference between RL and SL me’ are infant digital people:)[2010/11/23 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, right and it reduces the notion of a ‘mask’ to meaninglessness[2010/11/23 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, oh, i *like* that![2010/11/23 16:02]  Leila Boa: omg[2010/11/23 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, of course, Rhi. My point is taht what we call “deception” — “not presenting our true selves” — is a very ambiguous definition. For me, “deception” just alludes to the fact of illegitimely/illegally obtaining things from other people that we’re n[2010/11/23 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: The self is the interface between the human social arena and the choppily evolved primatebrain[2010/11/23 16:02]  Orfeu Miles: The notion of self is fluidic and dynamic in both worlds[2010/11/23 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because my “self at work” would probably shock “my self with my parents”; I’m not being “deceptive” in either case, just presenting two completely different masks.[2010/11/23 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: Self is a subroutine to facilitate functional enslavement[2010/11/23 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, well, deception does imply that there is a truth that is hidden; and what if there wree not truth?[2010/11/23 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Orfeu, of course 😛 If it’s in one, it’s in the other[2010/11/23 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now you’re talking, Rhi :)[2010/11/23 16:03]  Leila Boa: I think we are in SL to find ourselves….[2010/11/23 16:03]  Luisa Bourgoin: self beeing function of context[2010/11/23 16:03]  Archmage Atlantis: Getting back to the issue of how I feel about interacting with someone behind a mask, …….in RL I probably would not like a physical mask……but in SL there is no mask, just an expression of personality, either extant or desired…….so np[2010/11/23 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: The self is not discovered, it is created.[2010/11/23 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, Rhi, we can talk at a conventional level and at an absolute one :)[2010/11/23 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: To me it’s bizaare to even question ppl’s presentations here or in rl[2010/11/23 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, not sure what the difference is?[2010/11/23 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hear, hear, Extie. Is that from Matzinger again, or is that pure Extie? :)[2010/11/23 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: /me lusts for Claraval and wants his baby[2010/11/23 16:04]  Claraval Clarence: omg….khannea….just IM me[2010/11/23 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m reminded of the quote by (I forgot) some existentialist— “Be careful of what you pretend to be, you will become that.” I would say differently ” what you pretend to be is just another aspect of you to start with”…..[2010/11/23 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: “conventional” = for the sake of conversation, what we employ in usual daily conversation to facilitate talking about things; “absolute” = what it ultimately is.[2010/11/23 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Like everybody else, Gwyn, ‘my’ ideas and thoughts are really other people’s prior ideas and thoughts mashed-up.[2010/11/23 16:04]  Archmage Atlantis: Agree Art[2010/11/23 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I so totally agree[2010/11/23 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: then it was a very good mashup ;)[2010/11/23 16:05]  Leila Boa: Khannea?? what’s up?[2010/11/23 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, i guess my thought is that the self is always contextual; there may be an essence to it, sure, but it’s at the level of the imnmortality of the soul, or some such[2010/11/23 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also agree with it[2010/11/23 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: /me giggles[2010/11/23 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: exactly[2010/11/23 16:05]  Leila Boa: my twin is messing around[2010/11/23 16:05]  Leila Boa: WHY IS SHE DACING at the pole????[2010/11/23 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Self” is just an useful word construct to imply context[2010/11/23 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: because she wants to?[2010/11/23 16:05]  Leila Boa: ok but why is she dancing?[2010/11/23 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Leila: you seem to be overfascinated by Rhi dancing at the pole lol[2010/11/23 16:05]  Lem Skall: because WE want her to?[2010/11/23 16:05]  Archmage Atlantis: Because she is Rhi, Leila….pretty simple really[2010/11/23 16:06]  Leila Boa: oh…..[2010/11/23 16:06]  Leila Boa: I want a man to dance there!!![2010/11/23 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Not all of us do, Lem.[2010/11/23 16:06]  Orfeu Miles: It helps us all think Leila[2010/11/23 16:06]  Leila Boa: why women have to dance at the pole and no man????[2010/11/23 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s like asking why I’m sitting on the carpet… lol[2010/11/23 16:06]  Lem Skall: Zo, hence the question mark ;P[2010/11/23 16:06]  Claraval Clarence: leila i am with you[2010/11/23 16:06]  Claraval Clarence: i want a man too[2010/11/23 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: /me ponders ways to lure leila away so she can mahe a move on Claraval uninmpeded[2010/11/23 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, i dance therefore I am[2010/11/23 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: leila, I’d say because they’re not good dancers…. LOL[2010/11/23 16:06]  Leila Boa: OK[2010/11/23 16:06]  Leila Boa: I vote for CLARAVAL at the pole[2010/11/23 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I love that, Rhi :)[2010/11/23 16:06]  Leila Boa: who’s with me?[2010/11/23 16:06]  Ataraxia Azemus: Haha[2010/11/23 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: sexist, Gwyn![2010/11/23 16:06]  Leila Boa: CLARA[2010/11/23 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: There are men on the poles…. (In the gay bar….) ha ha ha[2010/11/23 16:07]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, here in sl, *we* are all good dancers[2010/11/23 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW what has this talk about the self have to do with anything?[2010/11/23 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Go to the pole too, Clara:)[2010/11/23 16:07]  Archmage Atlantis: I don’t want a man, and I’m a gay man everywhere……..women are just more graceful[2010/11/23 16:07]  Leila Boa: CLARA GO TO THE POLe[2010/11/23 16:07]  Leila Boa: did you ehar that????[2010/11/23 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: (Not to mention the pole dancing?)[2010/11/23 16:07]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Arch, ty[2010/11/23 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: always, Extie :)[2010/11/23 16:07]  Leila Boa: CLARA stop flirting and go to he damn pole[2010/11/23 16:07]  Claraval Clarence: who said it???[2010/11/23 16:07]  Rhiannon Dragoone: the pole dancing is a presentation of self, Ex[2010/11/23 16:07]  Sine Wave Pole Dance:  Loaded – 17 Animations .[2010/11/23 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: NO it is not.[2010/11/23 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: TAKE IT OFF[2010/11/23 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: who hoooooo![2010/11/23 16:08]  Luisa Bourgoin: well since it get’s percieved as distracting, it probably is just like that[2010/11/23 16:08]  Claraval Clarence: it is lke a long cold cock in my hands[2010/11/23 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: now he only needs a tipjar[2010/11/23 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, we’re definitely making Thinkers far more interesting….[2010/11/23 16:08]  Sean Gorham: If I had known pole-dancing was a regular fixture now at Thinkers meetings, I would have attended more often![2010/11/23 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Cold cocks are anything but long![2010/11/23 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: HE NEEDS WHIPPED CREAM[2010/11/23 16:08]  Orfeu Miles: this being a philosophy ..group…we only tip the strippers if they tell us the meaning of life…its a tough dtrip-gig in this joint :-)[2010/11/23 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: …. next week, we’ll do it in Zindra :)[2010/11/23 16:08]  Archmage Atlantis: Think of Rhi as an unusual object d art, put out on the coffee table to stimulate conversation……[2010/11/23 16:08]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me winks at Sean[2010/11/23 16:08]  Ataraxia Azemus: Haha[2010/11/23 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Orfeu[2010/11/23 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: ….[2010/11/23 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Orifeu, well, haven’t you been listening? I’ve been doing just that[2010/11/23 16:09]  Archmage Atlantis: Plus she likes the attention[2010/11/23 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Claraval > Rhi[2010/11/23 16:09]  Luisa Bourgoin: these dance performances easily killed some five mintues of conversation[2010/11/23 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, thanks, Arch. Talk about objectifiction[2010/11/23 16:09]  Archmage Atlantis: yw[2010/11/23 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: archmage give me a nuce strapon and I can cure you[2010/11/23 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol[2010/11/23 16:09]  Orfeu Miles: Ok Rhi…as soon as I understand anything you say…the money will be on its way ;-)[2010/11/23 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: OK I think the poledancing is a bit too disruptive? You might want to stop now or maybe I will eject you?[2010/11/23 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha Orfeu[2010/11/23 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: now we’re completely off track[2010/11/23 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: 10…[2010/11/23 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: noooo Extie… eject the audience! ;)[2010/11/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: 9…[2010/11/23 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol[2010/11/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: 8…[2010/11/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: 7…[2010/11/23 16:10]  Claraval Clarence: so much hate in here[2010/11/23 16:10]  Archmage Atlantis: Actually, we are exactly on track[2010/11/23 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Claraval is not good at obeying ;)[2010/11/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: 6…[2010/11/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: 5…[2010/11/23 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He’s not house trained…. lol[2010/11/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: 4…[2010/11/23 16:10]  Luisa Bourgoin: Houston, we have a problem … countdown jammed[2010/11/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: OK thanks:)[2010/11/23 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extropia, you didn’t have to threaten. I asked you in IM, remember?[2010/11/23 16:10]  Leila Boa: OMG what did I miss in this terrible CRFASH?[2010/11/23 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins[2010/11/23 16:10]  Claraval Clarence: i was afk[2010/11/23 16:10]  Claraval Clarence: but u r not tolerant at all[2010/11/23 16:10]  Claraval Clarence: go home[2010/11/23 16:10]  Claraval Clarence: with ur mask[2010/11/23 16:10]  Leila Boa: what happened?[2010/11/23 16:10]  Archmage Atlantis: We just need a psychologist and a sociologist to write the paper about this experiment[2010/11/23 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes I remember. But this is my event and I make the rules.[2010/11/23 16:11]  Claraval Clarence: so much anger here[2010/11/23 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no, Claraval… it was just plain old fun ;)[2010/11/23 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, but what does it show about you that you feel the need to threaten?[2010/11/23 16:11]  Orfeu Miles: and strangely apposite[2010/11/23 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: got to go afk for a bit………[2010/11/23 16:11]  Luisa Bourgoin: dancing AFK … what SL made of the dance …[2010/11/23 16:11]  Orfeu Miles: people entranced by dancing toons[2010/11/23 16:11]  Claraval Clarence: some lack of slefstemm i bet[2010/11/23 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: iRL, I always dance AFK ;)[2010/11/23 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it’s hard to dance and type)[2010/11/23 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: It shows I have a power complex, but then everyone knows that already.[2010/11/23 16:12]  Claraval Clarence: extropia, why r u nervous?[2010/11/23 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: get a peregrine[2010/11/23 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie :D[2010/11/23 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, Ex, but i’ve had enough with ppl with power complexes[2010/11/23 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: But dont get it dirty[2010/11/23 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So bye![2010/11/23 16:12]  Luisa Bourgoin: /me trademarks “SLefstem[TM]”[2010/11/23 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye:)[2010/11/23 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: wow she was touchy.[2010/11/23 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Now where were we?[2010/11/23 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww I think that Rhi was really pissed off….[2010/11/23 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi? Touchy? *never happened before*[2010/11/23 16:13]  Claraval Clarence: extropia…u r not normal[2010/11/23 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm[2010/11/23 16:13]  Orfeu Miles: Rhis speaks with great authorityon power complexes…sniggers[2010/11/23 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, she gets that way sometimes.[2010/11/23 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, definitely not normal, Claraval :)[2010/11/23 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: No I am not normal.[2010/11/23 16:13]  Claraval Clarence: lol[2010/11/23 16:13]  Leila Boa: well…I crashed…I couldn’t save you all guys..[2010/11/23 16:13]  Lem Skall: what is normal?[2010/11/23 16:13]  Leila Boa: I must have weared my WONDERWOMAN mask[2010/11/23 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: ejecting is a thread. returning the ole objects would have been wiser choice[2010/11/23 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: No seriosuly people Rhiannon is going through a difficult period with the GRS we should show her proper respect.[2010/11/23 16:13]  Claraval Clarence: normal is waht i do…rest is nuts[2010/11/23 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is mathematically defined as being the norm, Lem ;)[2010/11/23 16:13]  Orfeu Miles: GRS???[2010/11/23 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: Extie probably lacks that power (just owns the complex)[2010/11/23 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Sigh I had better try and appologise.[2010/11/23 16:14]  Claraval Clarence: right luisa[2010/11/23 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me wonders how Khannea knows those things[2010/11/23 16:14]  Lem Skall: extie, you have to keep control over the discussion but it might have been done differently[2010/11/23 16:14]  Orfeu Miles: I think extie was fine[2010/11/23 16:15]  Lem Skall: what is GRS?[2010/11/23 16:15]  Orfeu Miles: she is the chair[2010/11/23 16:15]  Archmage Atlantis: I think the discussion was fine…….and mostly on point[2010/11/23 16:15]  Leila Boa: I was in the middle of my crash[2010/11/23 16:15]  Leila Boa: WAS IT MY FAULt?????[2010/11/23 16:15]  Leila Boa: I asked Clara to dance[2010/11/23 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes[2010/11/23 16:15]  Leila Boa: OMG I feel guilty now[2010/11/23 16:15]  Claraval Clarence: ivy…let m twin alone[2010/11/23 16:16]  Luisa Bourgoin: the discussion got damage when people objected about nudeness in public. blame our prudes here[2010/11/23 16:16]  Bridge McMahon: I think it’s interesting that Rhi evoked emotion at the discussion, and some even came to her rescue[2010/11/23 16:16]  Lem Skall: what is the GRS?[2010/11/23 16:16]  Orfeu Miles: Yes Leila…ALL your fault…smirks[2010/11/23 16:16]  Leila Boa: omg[2010/11/23 16:16]  Leila Boa: I BEG YOUR PARDON[2010/11/23 16:16]  Leila Boa: SORRY[2010/11/23 16:16]  Claraval: /me gives a firm spank on Leila’s cute sexy butt!![2010/11/23 16:16]  Leila Boa: I can dance myslef naked????[2010/11/23 16:16]  Bridge McMahon: backs up[2010/11/23 16:16]  Leila Boa: will you forgive me?[2010/11/23 16:16]  Archmage Atlantis: Guilt and Falt……2 concepts we need to evolve away from[2010/11/23 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: …I think I should say, in Rhi’s defence, that she did ask me in IM if the dancing was disruptrive, so I think she was right to object when I suddenly say in public to stop dancing or be ejected. I should have asked her in IM first and I did not. I was wrong and I appologise.[2010/11/23 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The western world is too conditioned by that, Arch[2010/11/23 16:17]  Lem Skall: ok, Extie[2010/11/23 16:17]  Orfeu Miles: What is GRS???[2010/11/23 16:17]  Archmage Atlantis: true, Gwyn…sigh[2010/11/23 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: Archmage, why coloring even? We have black and white, that’s plenty. sufficient :)[2010/11/23 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery%5B2010/11/23 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gender reassignment surgery[2010/11/23 16:17]  Orfeu Miles: ah Ok thx[2010/11/23 16:17]  Lem Skall: whoa[2010/11/23 16:17]  Claraval Clarence: now u apologize, after pain[2010/11/23 16:17]  Leila Boa: who?[2010/11/23 16:17]  Leila Boa: me?[2010/11/23 16:17]  Claraval Clarence: yes leila[2010/11/23 16:18]  Orfeu Miles: No apologies are necessary, surely[2010/11/23 16:18]  Leila Boa: OK SORRY[2010/11/23 16:18]  Leila Boa: Clara…what shoudl I do???[2010/11/23 16:18]  Claraval Clarence: shut up[2010/11/23 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: No point in appologizing before, becaiuse there is nothing to appologize FOR in that case.[2010/11/23 16:18]  Leila Boa: send me an IM with what should I tell[2010/11/23 16:18]  Archmage Atlantis: Not everyone who is in one sex inside and one sex outside wants surgery[2010/11/23 16:18]  Claraval Clarence: for once[2010/11/23 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: *hisssss*[2010/11/23 16:18]  Claraval Clarence: leila was a boy once[2010/11/23 16:18]  Lem Skall: clara, you’d better cool off yourself[2010/11/23 16:18]  Claraval Clarence: lem, eject me[2010/11/23 16:18]  Lem Skall: wb Rhi[2010/11/23 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The things you all know about other people’s RL fascinates me :)[2010/11/23 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: It is quite succesful I’d say[2010/11/23 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Rhi :)[2010/11/23 16:19]  Claraval Clarence: less talking and more action[2010/11/23 16:19]  Bridge McMahon: me too Gwyneth[2010/11/23 16:19]  Ataraxia Azemus: wb Rhia[2010/11/23 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Rhi :)[2010/11/23 16:19]  Orfeu Miles: Might I suggest IM is abetter channle for personal stuff…this is a PUBLIC forum[2010/11/23 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: WB Rhi. Sorry about threatening you like that.[2010/11/23 16:19]  Bridge McMahon: indicates a level of trust?[2010/11/23 16:19]  Lem Skall: clara, I’ll do better than that, I’ll disrespect you[2010/11/23 16:19]  Orfeu Miles: Hi Rhi wb[2010/11/23 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: thanks, Atara[2010/11/23 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: thanks Oifeu[2010/11/23 16:19]  Luisa Bourgoin: so where did we stopped?[2010/11/23 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I forgive you, Ex[2010/11/23 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: /me borrows some of that special popcorn Ivy makes[2010/11/23 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Emotions as part of self.[2010/11/23 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tink.[2010/11/23 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Yay![2010/11/23 16:19]  Claraval Clarence: lem..that will hurt like…idk….like a truck on ur balls[2010/11/23 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *think even[2010/11/23 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes, I forgive you too Rhiannon[2010/11/23 16:20]  Lem Skall: /me rolls his eyes[2010/11/23 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: LAst thing of relevance was Gwyn talking about ythe fluid nature of self, I believe.[2010/11/23 16:20]  Leila Boa: ok let’s forgive Clara also[2010/11/23 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh probably.[2010/11/23 16:20]  Leila Boa: and let’s go back to the discussion[2010/11/23 16:20]  Orfeu Miles: Emotions are an expression of self…nods sagely…glad we staightened that one out….laughs[2010/11/23 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: look, sorry for being so sensitive, but i’ve been banned recently, and i don’t like being banned, ejected or threatened.[2010/11/23 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not forgive people for having an opinion, since there is nothing to forgive. We all have them.[2010/11/23 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: It’s part of my “true” projection[2010/11/23 16:21]  Luisa Bourgoin: the self experience got formed by context. environment. beeing at work is different than beeing isnidde the bathroom each morning[2010/11/23 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ironically, I had been reading some academic papers on the fluidity of identity…[2010/11/23 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: EXCEPT for wearing Radiance ;rollseyes; o my god[2010/11/23 16:21]  Luisa Bourgoin: and there are just some minutes between these two[2010/11/23 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Luisa![2010/11/23 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, there is a core though, Gwyn, even if expressed contextually[2010/11/23 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you switch gears *instantly*[2010/11/23 16:21]  Claraval Clarence: i recognize when i see somoene like me,[2010/11/23 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: It’s not completely fluid[2010/11/23 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sometimes seconds…. like when your spouse calls on the phone,[2010/11/23 16:22]  Ataraxia Azemus: There’s a continuity, which is mostly what we are, I guess[2010/11/23 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, it is not completely fluid; iwe are creatures of habits and tendencies[2010/11/23 16:22]  Archmage Atlantis: Good example Gwyn[2010/11/23 16:22]  Luisa Bourgoin: it’s difficult when personalitys change according to people attending a meeting[2010/11/23 16:22]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And more than that, Gwyn; there’s a point in our chaning where we cease to be ourselves[2010/11/23 16:22]  Ataraxia Azemus: But to vaguely tie this to the original topic…that isn’t really what most people associate with someone else’s “self.”[2010/11/23 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s exactly it, Atari :_) “Self” is just that, continuity ;)[2010/11/23 16:23]  Claraval Clarence: countity of space and fomr[2010/11/23 16:23]  Claraval Clarence: form[2010/11/23 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you mean physical death, Rhi, I agree.[2010/11/23 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, well, transformation of self too[2010/11/23 16:23]  Leila Boa: should someone dance now?[2010/11/23 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it transforms every second :)[2010/11/23 16:23]  Leila Boa: I can get focused easily…if someone dances[2010/11/23 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: We sometimes get muddled by the physical continuity, but ppl can change to the point where we can say that they aren’t the same person[2010/11/23 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or rather,e very Planck moment[2010/11/23 16:23]  Luisa Bourgoin: you gather intelligence about a person’s “inner self” perhaps. Or drawing a more stable picture about a core personailty[2010/11/23 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: MMh.[2010/11/23 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: But surely SL and virtual worlds go beyond the kind of shifts in personality typical of home versus office life? I am much more of a different person with her own social network than, say, my primary at home versus at work?[2010/11/23 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, I agree with that in the conventional sense[2010/11/23 16:24]  Rhiannon Dragoone: The thing is every representation we choose, at least in SL, is one of that core, whatever it is[2010/11/23 16:24]  Claraval Clarence: there is alwas a core….but my core is out always[2010/11/23 16:24]  Claraval Clarence: so it is an extra core[2010/11/23 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A typical example: one person who has a long history of drinking, and that finally gives up drinking. They might not be even remotely familiar to the ones close to them[2010/11/23 16:24]  Ataraxia Azemus: For most people, others’ selves are the details around them. What they look like, where they work, who their family is, whatever.[2010/11/23 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and vice-versa)[2010/11/23 16:24]  Archmage Atlantis: One of my former partners used to say to me, when I was proposing a theory of why he did something or why we interacted in a particular way ……”how can u know what is going on in my head”…….over time I realized I couldn’t, not with him, nor with anyone[2010/11/23 16:25]  Ataraxia Azemus: If you can’t see past that, anonymity is scary.[2010/11/23 16:25]  Luisa Bourgoin: Sl sure has an impact! In RL, I never ask myself “how does this person looks ?”[2010/11/23 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: I still find it interesting to ponder what types of avs people prefer to interact with — or avoid — in SL. Even though I’ll admit it’s tangental to the topic. :)[2010/11/23 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: But do we choose who we become in SL or is it chosen for us through the contacts we make and the way they influence our behaviour? Did I choose to join Thinkers or did Gwyn choose for me?[2010/11/23 16:25]  Lem Skall: Luisa, why do you ask yourself that in SL?[2010/11/23 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arch no, you can’t. But…. you can extrapolate that other peoples’ minds work in a pretty similar way than yours.[2010/11/23 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: interdependence ;)[2010/11/23 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Zobeid, but it does have a point on the topic, like a good tangent; we are asking how do we relate to other’s ‘masks[2010/11/23 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The answer is “both”[2010/11/23 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes yes![2010/11/23 16:26]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yeah, sorta kinda both?[2010/11/23 16:26]  Luisa Bourgoin: Lem, the question occured. And it’s typical for online existance[2010/11/23 16:26]  Lem Skall: but why?[2010/11/23 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmm so what if it turns out that current SL appeals ‘by and large’to people with a tey undiagnoses mental deficiency?[2010/11/23 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: key[2010/11/23 16:27]  Claraval Clarence: why lem?[2010/11/23 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: What, intelligence? :)[2010/11/23 16:27]  Ataraxia Azemus: Well, everybody’s crazy one way or another :)[2010/11/23 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: sorry Lem, what was the question/ comment again?[2010/11/23 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: Undiagnosed[2010/11/23 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also lost Lem’s thread…[2010/11/23 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: Intelligence is diagnoses and faiurkly treatable[2010/11/23 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it was related to asking online how people look offline?[2010/11/23 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Like something that makes us typo-prone, maybe? :)[2010/11/23 16:27]  Claraval Clarence: lem is insane[2010/11/23 16:28]  Orfeu Miles: I meet more people with poor social skills in Sl than in Rl….why is that??[2010/11/23 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: that’s true! haha[2010/11/23 16:28]  Archmage Atlantis: Crazy assumes a standard base line for judging[2010/11/23 16:28]  Lem Skall: Extie, the question was to Luisa, why does she ask herself about how someone looks when she is in SL[2010/11/23 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Orifeu, do you have to ask?[2010/11/23 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Orfeu: because you wander around special environments iRL ;)[2010/11/23 16:28]  Archmage Atlantis: But we each define our own base line[2010/11/23 16:28]  Claraval Clarence: omg…..r u new here?[2010/11/23 16:28]  Leila Boa: omg I am lost[2010/11/23 16:28]  Orfeu Miles: um….yes[2010/11/23 16:28]  Claraval Clarence: leila…u r too pretty for this[2010/11/23 16:28]  Leila Boa: omg[2010/11/23 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Leila is wearing radiance too> OMG? WTF?[2010/11/23 16:29]  Orfeu Miles: SL can seem like a giant Autism Convention to me on some days[2010/11/23 16:29]  Lem Skall: puke, so that is why clara is doing all this posing[2010/11/23 16:29]  Leila Boa: radiance???I drunk a bit yes[2010/11/23 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Orfeu!!![2010/11/23 16:29]  Leila Boa: but no radiance[2010/11/23 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: BAck[2010/11/23 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Art![2010/11/23 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah Orfeu, but understand a lot of those folks didn’t come here looking for conversation, as such. :)[2010/11/23 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Orifeu, well we lose between75 and 95 percent of our feedback here, unless you’re good at reading energies, and auras[2010/11/23 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: Who hooooo![2010/11/23 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Zo :)))) riiiight[2010/11/23 16:30]  Orfeu Miles: Agreed Zo :-)[2010/11/23 16:30]  Claraval Clarence: bye bye pals….lem….pfffffff….[2010/11/23 16:30]  Rhiannon Dragoone: at conversational groups, i think things are more real than elsewhere[2010/11/23 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least 20% do[2010/11/23 16:30]  Archmage Atlantis: Oh, I had forgotten about the consequences of typing while drunk *g*[2010/11/23 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: http://www.kohls.com/upgrade/webstore/product_page_multiple.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524892705988&pfx=pfx_shopcompare&cid=shopping3&mr:trackingCode=8240B74D-DBCB-DF11-92F8-0019B9C04BE4&mr:referralID=NA%5B2010/11/23 16:30]  Leila Boa: I am lost[2010/11/23 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me wonders if we can define “reality” too[2010/11/23 16:30]  Claraval Clarence: leila…..stay away from lem[2010/11/23 16:30]  Orfeu Miles: LOl gwynn[2010/11/23 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like saying mmmh this is 76.53% real today[2010/11/23 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: bye there Claraval[2010/11/23 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, do we have a reality scake or something?[2010/11/23 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *scale[2010/11/23 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How do we measure reality?[2010/11/23 16:31]  Ataraxia Azemus: Reality is the stuff that makes you say “Ow” when you walk into a wall[2010/11/23 16:31]  Lem Skall: clara, leave already[2010/11/23 16:31]  Leila Boa: OMG Clara you going??????[2010/11/23 16:31]  Leila Boa: OMG[2010/11/23 16:31]  Leila Boa: I’ll be even more lost[2010/11/23 16:31]  Orfeu Miles: /me beats his hand to his chest..”Keepin it Real”[2010/11/23 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s physicality, but not reality, Atari[2010/11/23 16:31]  Claraval Clarence: shut up lem[2010/11/23 16:31]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i’ve gotta log[2010/11/23 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: It’s all real, people…… heh[2010/11/23 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. is a phone conversation real?[2010/11/23 16:31]  Luisa Bourgoin: how real is reality 😀 …don’T get me started.[2010/11/23 16:31]  Rhiannon Dragoone: we’ll see you all next time![2010/11/23 16:31]  Leila Boa: ok good night all[2010/11/23 16:31]  Lem Skall: cya Rhi[2010/11/23 16:32]  Rhiannon Dragoone: cya Lem[2010/11/23 16:32]  Ataraxia Azemus: Oh, if you mean qualitatively, then anything that’s meaningful is real :)[2010/11/23 16:32]  Rhiannon Dragoone: nite, leila[2010/11/23 16:32]  Orfeu Miles: No Gwynn phone-call is a toal sci-fi delusion…joking[2010/11/23 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Reality http://gizmodo.com/5670159/watch-south-parks-dreamy-inception-parody%5B2010/11/23 16:32]  Ataraxia Azemus: Night Rhia[2010/11/23 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Rhi[2010/11/23 16:32]  Archmage Atlantis: So when someone cries out in their sleep, because in their dream they walked into a wall, that’s reality?[2010/11/23 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Relativity of reality states that something is only virtual when you have something more to compare it to. Such as SL and RL with the former clearly embedded within the latter. But we cannot know for sure that RL is not itself a simulation.[2010/11/23 16:32]  Rhiannon Dragoone: nite Atari[2010/11/23 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe — “Cyberspace: the place where two people meet when they’re on a phone call”[2010/11/23 16:32]  Ataraxia Azemus: By my definition, yeah, Arch :)[2010/11/23 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: humanity as a whole owns to many constructed illusions[2010/11/23 16:32]  Orfeu Miles: LOL gwynn[2010/11/23 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, if Gödel is right, we can really have absoliutely no idea if we’re inside a simulation or not ;)[2010/11/23 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Orfeu: not my words, but I love to quote them[2010/11/23 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well final comments on topic before I wrap things up?[2010/11/23 16:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: we are inside a huuge Monopoly game. At least seen from economical viewpoint[2010/11/23 16:33]  Arisia Vita: /me wonders if silence is a mask–a way to avoid risk?[2010/11/23 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure: the best definition of a human being is that it’s “all masks”[2010/11/23 16:33]  Bridge McMahon: yes Luisa[2010/11/23 16:33]  Orfeu Miles: If this is a simulation…do I still have to pay back my overdraft???[2010/11/23 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (most definitely, Ari!)[2010/11/23 16:34]  Lem Skall: Ari, you broke your mask[2010/11/23 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)[2010/11/23 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maks are also fluid ;)[2010/11/23 16:34]  Orfeu Miles: My Fav qoute…”What lies behind the mask…???? …. Another Mask”[2010/11/23 16:34]  Luisa Bourgoin: Extie, don’t wrap this up … crumble today into some small paperball, for teh dustbin[2010/11/23 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Masks all the way, Yes,[2010/11/23 16:34]  Lem Skall: masks ftw[2010/11/23 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: You did not like this debate, then, Luisa?[2010/11/23 16:35]  Khannea Suntzu: /me is silent and ponders this with a brooding expression[2010/11/23 16:35]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up![2010/11/23 16:35]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK…SURROGATE ACTIVITIES…

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4 Responses to Thinkers Nov 23 2010: AFRAID OF THE MASK?

  1. Archmage Atlantis (R. Batts) says:

    Extropia,

    There was an exchange at this session that I and another participant engaged in. It has been on my mind. In my view it is key to a future that allows all entities to live in relative peace and harmony, while also creating an environment where any entity can reach e’s most complete potential. In this case, my definition of entity includes humans and all non-humans, whether animal, mechanical, alien, or some not yet imagined categorizaton.

    The exchange in question:
    Archmage Atlantis: One of my former partners used to say to me, when I was proposing a theory of why he did something or why we interacted in a particular way ……”how can u know what is going on in my head”…….over time I realized I couldn’t, not with him, nor with anyone

    Respondent: Arch no, you can’t. But…. you can extrapolate that other peoples’ minds work in a pretty similar way than yours.

    My response to that idea, that one can extrapolate how another entities mind works, is that it is an illusion, a personal virtual reality formed by the observing entity about the observed entity.

    Akin to anthropomorphism , the tendency to see another entity as similar is of personal comfort to the observing entity. It does not provide evidence of similarity. The observed entity may only exibit thought elements, or behaviours, that map well to the observing entity’s sense of the real.

    This high statistical co-occurance in the observations simply proves that the data examined shows a high statistical mapping, not that any true similarity in motivation, cause, or hard wiring exists.

    Thank you for this opportunity to comment,

    Arch

  2. Interesting thoughts, Arch.

    You might like this short story. It is by Greg Egan and it concerns a person obsessed with truly knowing what his partner’s subjective POV is like.

    http://www.eidolon.net/old_site/issue_09/09_closr.htm

  3. Valkyrie Ice says:

    Hi Extie, must admit I skimmed this and will reading it more fully later, but in breif you’re overthinking this.

    Why is SL not more widely adopted? Because the controls suck. It’s a challenge to make a decent Avatar, and movement is unlike any of the mmos that are popular, and for awhile there, it didn’t even allow for a WASD movement.

    In short, the learning curve is so high that only dedicated people stick with it long enough to really learn it well.

    I’ve spent too many hours teaching people how to use SL only to have them give up to think any different. As a veteran user, I doubt you even really think about the UI anymore, but to a newcomer, it’s an utter pain in the ass.

    The same thing happened with PCs too. It’s only once they became quite a bit easier to use that they really began spreading everywhere. I’m an old Tandy COCO owner, who moved to Commodore, than Amiga, and finally a 486, I lived thorough it becoming VASTLY simpler to use computers. SL is unfortunately the Commodore of VR.

  4. >in breif you’re overthinking this.<

    I would point out that the topics I choose for discussion at Thinkers are not necessarily my ideas, nor are they necessarily opinions I agree with. They are just opening statements that people can argue for or against. In the case of 'Who Is The Mask', it was actually Wagner James 'Hamlet' Au, who speculated that 'full body costumes' was responsible for SL's failure.

    I have no doubt that Au is very much aware of the problems you cited. I would imagine that he and anyone else (myself included) would place making an online world 'fast, easy and fun' as the number one top priority that should come before anything else. The question is, once this ideal basic need is fulfilled, will 'full body costumes' make online worlds seem compelling, or off-putting?

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