Thinkers Nov 9 2010: Conflict of VRs.

Ivy Sunkiller at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers, back after the clocks were pointlessly altered as if farmers have no artificial lights these days..[2010/11/09 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it’s a gardenia!)[2010/11/09 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie![2010/11/09 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: This time the topic is…[2010/11/09 15:33]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well DST was really for the golfer friends of Wilson, not the famers[2010/11/09 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh we have to wait. The cat is coming..[2010/11/09 15:33]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Morgaine[2010/11/09 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Incoming Kitty :)[2010/11/09 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Ah there she is.[2010/11/09 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: OK[2010/11/09 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: hiya Morgaine[2010/11/09 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Morgie :)[2010/11/09 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Topic is A CONFLICT OF VRs..[2010/11/09 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Thinkers is back with A CONFLICT OF VIRTUAL REALITIES: Pope Benedict XVI issued a warning that using online worlds runs the risk of making one indifferent to the truth, and confused with regards to what is real and what is fantasy. Critics counter that the issue is not truth versus fantasy but the fantasy world of Catholicism versus the fantasy worlds of cyberspace[2010/11/09 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: .[2010/11/09 15:34]  Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Ivy, tnx for TP :-)[2010/11/09 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha! This is a great topic. :D[2010/11/09 15:34]  Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Extie, and all :-)[2010/11/09 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: So we have two questions here..Firstly, is the pope right and secondly, are the critics right?[2010/11/09 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, and yes.[2010/11/09 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: I think Pope Emperor has a different idea of what “truth” is[2010/11/09 15:34]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Scarp[2010/11/09 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: hiya Scrap![2010/11/09 15:35]  Scarp Godenot: hihihi[2010/11/09 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp*[2010/11/09 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: gah[2010/11/09 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: And now we get to elaborate..[2010/11/09 15:35]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, i’ve noticed the interpetration of “real Life” with SL[2010/11/09 15:35]  Morgaine Dinova: I hope we’re not going to debate the ACTUAL topic, since the Pope is obviously deluded about his “reality”. But the general topic is interesting[2010/11/09 15:35]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ppl are into politics here; i have a friend deeply concerend with Iran[2010/11/09 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: truth in religion context usually refers to what their holy book says[2010/11/09 15:35]  Rhiannon Dragoone: There is AA here; charities here[2010/11/09 15:35]  Archmage Atlantis: I think this Pope is a bigoted old man in a fancy dress……..but that isn’t something I should say aloud…..oh, oops.[2010/11/09 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: which doesn’t have to be truth at all :)[2010/11/09 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Morgie since when did Thinkers stick to the actual topic for more than 2 minutes?[2010/11/09 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie[2010/11/09 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that if the issue is ‘mind control’ through religious dogma, virtual worlds are as good as the physical world for that ;)[2010/11/09 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Does his being Pope make him more, less or equally well qualified to judge online life?[2010/11/09 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that’s just me being a cynic.[2010/11/09 15:36]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Ginna[2010/11/09 15:36]  Ginna Decosta: Hi![2010/11/09 15:36]  Morgaine Dinova: Archmage: yes it *IS* shjomething you should say aloud. Although a more generous assessment is that he has a medical problem related to delusion, a serious psychiatric condition.[2010/11/09 15:36]  Rhiannon Dragoone: but the point is whether being here makes us indifferent to what’s going on in real lie; and it doesn’t[2010/11/09 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh Extie — his opinions just matter to Catholics really.[2010/11/09 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve always felt that virtual worlds are a great simulation, education and planning tool with the ultimate aim of using all that knowledge for RL goals. In other worse, VR shouldn’t be an end in itself.[2010/11/09 15:36]  Inuoko Shikami: Lets see the Pope play sl, then judge “fantasy games”[2010/11/09 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, that’s the fundamental issue, Rhi[2010/11/09 15:37]  Rhiannon Dragoone: thanks, Gwyn[2010/11/09 15:37]  Morgaine Dinova: Let’s not talk about the Pope, that’s a silly topic. Let’s talk about the reality of VWs.[2010/11/09 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Or at least, no more an end in itself than novels or movies are. . . As art. But art also is supposed to illuminate RL rather than replace it.[2010/11/09 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extreme cases of escapism certainly will ignore ‘real issues’ more. But we should be careful about using ‘edge cases’ as representig the whole.[2010/11/09 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: I wouldn’t mind VR being the end in itself[2010/11/09 15:37]  Luisa Bourgoin: how far can Mr. Pope be considered an expert?[2010/11/09 15:37]  Luisa Bourgoin: anybody got his avatar name?[2010/11/09 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: granted that VR would have to be way more elaborate than SL :)[2010/11/09 15:37]  Ataria Akiri: I’m not exactly sure why the pope is online much less secondlife at all to be honest.[2010/11/09 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: fine by me. I know more about vws than Catholocism anyway?[2010/11/09 15:38]  Inuoko Shikami: hahaha exactly Lui[2010/11/09 15:38]  Shorahmin Femto: who ever is making that noise should close the door[2010/11/09 15:38]  Rhiannon Dragoone: no, its not the reality of virtual worlds; its whether spending time in them makes you indifferent to ppl’s suffering in the real world; that’s the Pope’s issue[2010/11/09 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: Luisa: I only have the first name, Palpatine[2010/11/09 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl[2010/11/09 15:38]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And i notice we don’t even seem to want to go there–maybe tacitly agreeing with the Pope, after all[2010/11/09 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh![2010/11/09 15:39]  Luisa Bourgoin: we should stop here, and continue if His Holiness followed the invitation joining us[2010/11/09 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Does anyone want to disagree?[2010/11/09 15:39]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: it’s a good question, what the Pope or anyone in religion ACTUALLY believes or not. But not interesting in our context ;-)[2010/11/09 15:39]  Shorahmin Femto: maybe in 500 yrs, they will apologize – sort of[2010/11/09 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well… my usual point is that indifference doesn’t depend really on the environment, but just on what’s inside one’s mind.[2010/11/09 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (right, Morgaine!!! heheheh)[2010/11/09 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I’m beginning to think he’s right from the way we’re running away from his point[2010/11/09 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: actually, VR can be a source of information about RL[2010/11/09 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Bruce![2010/11/09 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: hiya Bruce[2010/11/09 15:40]  Archmage Atlantis: That noise does sound like someone forgot to close the toilet door, ……oh, is that Pope in there?[2010/11/09 15:40]  Bruce Mowbray: Hi, folks. Looking for a place to sit….[2010/11/09 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: If that was indeed the pope’s point. . . he might be onto something, but I don’t think we’re close to it being a big concern yet. He’s jumping the gun.[2010/11/09 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Rhi… if the argument is… in virtual worlds we can “pretend” not to suffer…. because we have lovely avatars and the perfect homes… well…. then perhaps there is a point there[2010/11/09 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But in reality, I see people suffering in VWs too[2010/11/09 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, how do we reconcile our time here with the suffering in RL?[2010/11/09 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello Ataraxia[2010/11/09 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Although I know ppl who are active in human rights here[2010/11/09 15:40]  Morgaine Dinova: Well hopefully we’re not going to revisit the augmentist vs immersionist topic, and just accept that there are two views which often cannot be reconciled. But that still leaves the question of the reality of virtual worlds, and that’s a deeper issue.[2010/11/09 15:40]  Ginna Decosta: shut uuup[2010/11/09 15:40]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi guys :)[2010/11/09 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s a nonsense question, Rhi.[2010/11/09 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Atari[2010/11/09 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I’m not indifferent to either suffering here, or suffering on IMs, or on emails… or in the physical space[2010/11/09 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Thing is, though, surely everyone who uses virtual worlds is aware of an element of untruth to them?[2010/11/09 15:41]  Inuoko Shikami: Gwy you have a point, but we all know about those relationship issues..ouch.[2010/11/09 15:41]  Archmage Atlantis: Ok, if everyone insists on treating this is a serious topic, vr as escapism is no more damaging than any other substance or behavior used that way…[2010/11/09 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right Inuoko! Just because the world is virtual and the setting is fantasy, it doesn’t mean people stop suffering.[2010/11/09 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, yes, and do we focus of the VW ppl’s suffering and not say ppl in the 3rd world[2010/11/09 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Archmage[2010/11/09 15:41]  Inuoko Shikami: I’ve seen a lot of people get burned, badly. Perhaps it depends on how involved a person gets into VR[2010/11/09 15:41]  Forceme Silverspar: I call this my second life, it is an extension to my first life. My first life is not my “real life” because that would make my second life, my ‘fake life’, and it is not. Both my first and my second life are run by me. This virtual world is real for me.[2010/11/09 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Atari![2010/11/09 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: You’re framing it in a way that we have to “justify” anything we do in life, RL or VR, in terms of why we’re doing that instead of “caring about suffering” instead. :/[2010/11/09 15:42]  Morgaine Dinova: You don’t *HAVE* to reconcile anything here with the physical world. If you’re an augmentist, you just choose to do so, which is perfectly fine.[2010/11/09 15:42]  Ataraxia Azemus: (Sorry if I just sat on anyone! Slow to rez today)[2010/11/09 15:42]  Inuoko Shikami: I agree with you there force 😉 both worlds are important to me[2010/11/09 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: As to what is real or not, virtual worlds are representations of knowledge. The Abstraction of virtual ‘things’ is a form of communication as well as a platform of communication. In the same vein, Language isn’t real under that same assumption. So does ‘real’ enter into the conversation, seriously?[2010/11/09 15:42]  Luisa Bourgoin: woundering how other religious leaders observe SL. Buddhists & similars[2010/11/09 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Atari, ur allowed to tak eyour time to rez here; this isn’t PI[2010/11/09 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: (you can sit on me, or next to me, any time :))[2010/11/09 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Rhi… this is naturally my point of view, but… I have no means and no skills to worry about *all* people. Not yet! So I start with a small group, the ones closer to me. It just happens that most hang around in VWs.[2010/11/09 15:42]  Shorahmin Femto: we might restate the question as “Do religious leaders in general have a better perspective from which to critique these VWs?[2010/11/09 15:42]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol[2010/11/09 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa: not all religions have centralised views ;)[2010/11/09 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Good question, Shorah[2010/11/09 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, it’s not so much a religious issue; its an issue of caring and focus[2010/11/09 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: According to the ‘media equation’ (forget who coined it, sorry) a primitive part of our brains cannot distinguish between reality and the cinematic/ television image. So yeah it is all real in some sense.[2010/11/09 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And My thought is that there are ppl here very much concerned with FL suffering[2010/11/09 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shorah, but that’s not exactly the point here, I think… granted, that’s another issue worth discussing[2010/11/09 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: human rights organizations, protest movements, charities[2010/11/09 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely, Rhi[2010/11/09 15:43]  Morgaine Dinova: You know, I think I’lll come to a meeting here in human form naked if Extie gives the topic an opportunity. It’s another interesting one, for people who can get beyond the giggle factor.[2010/11/09 15:43]  Archmage Atlantis: I tend to agree with Forceme’s terminology, FL vs. SL……or rather each as extentions of the other[2010/11/09 15:44]  Ataria Akiri: Hi Rhiannon[2010/11/09 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or simply watching your SL neighbour suffering and worrying about them.[2010/11/09 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Ataria[2010/11/09 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins @ Morgie[2010/11/09 15:44]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Rhia[2010/11/09 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Does a naked Morgie bring a new definition to ‘shaven pussy’?[2010/11/09 15:44]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: grinning out of order, seriously!!!![2010/11/09 15:44]  Morgaine Dinova: /me grins[2010/11/09 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: hahaha[2010/11/09 15:44]  Inuoko Shikami: I agree Gwy, come on, how many people have sl sisters/bros/moms/dads?[2010/11/09 15:44]  Forceme Silverspar: It depends what the religious folks know about VR? I could find plenty of quotes from folks when the telephone was invented “You are NOT REALLY talking to a person, you are talking to a piece of bakalite” eh?![2010/11/09 15:45]  Shorahmin Femto: ow I’m distracted again[2010/11/09 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, wll you just have to go naked in SL to realize that to most ppl here, it is reality[2010/11/09 15:45]  Ataraxia Azemus: We all have relatives here! :p[2010/11/09 15:45]  Morgaine Dinova: Oh it’s a reality alright. But it’s a virtual reality. And that is an important adjective.[2010/11/09 15:45]  Inuoko Shikami: hahaha exactly[2010/11/09 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, omg![2010/11/09 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: It ua unfortunate that the first widely adopted Virtual World was named Second Life. If it were named Computer Box screen, would we then understand it better? And not confuse it with being an alternative to life but just another part of life?[2010/11/09 15:46]  Inuoko Shikami: I have an sl bro added on my facebook as my rl bro. its real in my eyes[2010/11/09 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: no, it’s not a connection to reality of sorts[2010/11/09 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s definitely real, even though it’s fake?[2010/11/09 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp, hear hear[2010/11/09 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: more about, bullying arround peoples as usual[2010/11/09 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Morgaine, yes, but emotionally and subconsciously it is real; the chat is real; ppl relate to your avatar as you[2010/11/09 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: It is another life, surely? Well…if you want another life you make it so that is what SL provides.[2010/11/09 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, i doubt it; its more than just a label[2010/11/09 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Darin![2010/11/09 15:47]  Darin Dejavu: hello[2010/11/09 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi :)[2010/11/09 15:47]  Archmage Atlantis: My gosh, we’re having the 1950’s conversation about the impact of television all over again[2010/11/09 15:47]  Bruce Mowbray: Does Catholicism also offer another life?[2010/11/09 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Archmage!!![2010/11/09 15:47]  Inuoko Shikami: hahaha[2010/11/09 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Bruce ;)[2010/11/09 15:47]  Morgaine Dinova: Rhi: of course it’s REAL! But that does not mean that it’s the same reality as the physical world.[2010/11/09 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Arch, lmao[2010/11/09 15:47]  Archmage Atlantis: Good thing mid-century modern is an in stype[2010/11/09 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Bruce — we’re ‘competition’ ;)[2010/11/09 15:47]  Archmage Atlantis: *style[2010/11/09 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: The label Second life implies that it is not part of your life, but a different life. That leads to a general misunderstanding.[2010/11/09 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Not to me or Morgie it does not.[2010/11/09 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Morgaine, and then the question arises, though, can there be an interface between RL and FL where we help those in FL from SL?[2010/11/09 15:48]  Darin Dejavu: a bit more complex then “don’t sit too close to the tv you’ll go blind”[2010/11/09 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I meant SL, the first thing[2010/11/09 15:48]  Ataraxia Azemus: Catholocism promises another life, but it never seems to get out of testing.[2010/11/09 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For me that question doesn’t make much sense, Rhi — I see as little difference in interfacing with other people here as on the phone…[2010/11/09 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, I don’t confuse javascript with java despite the label, yet a lot of people, even in IT crowd, do[2010/11/09 15:48]  Inuoko Shikami: I know plenty of people who started off saying “oh sl is seperate from my rl” hahaha hardly ever lasts long[2010/11/09 15:48]  Darin Dejavu: I understand the pope’s warning about virtualizing our lives>>>>>>>[2010/11/09 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: so labels tend to be important[2010/11/09 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: :)[2010/11/09 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: So which number of life to you go to when you go to Blue Mars?[2010/11/09 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: #0;)[2010/11/09 15:49]  Ataria Akiri: Agree with Darin[2010/11/09 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, the Pope is more conceren not with virtualizing our lives but trivializing others lives'[2010/11/09 15:49]  Shorahmin Femto: a few years ago some guy showed up naked to this meeting with his hose near the floor, many became smi hysterical. Not that I mind but is there a double standard at work or has something changed?[2010/11/09 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: That is not quite true though, Gwyn. A telephone does not show you someone else who is somewhere else. But SL does.[2010/11/09 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh heh[2010/11/09 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What about Skype, Extie? :)[2010/11/09 15:50]  Forceme Silverspar: There are folks who separate FL with SL – they are the roleplayers. The actors in SL who are in a different role to what they are in. Just like Tom Hanks playing a character in a film.[2010/11/09 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: then again, we are more likely to find organizations and movements “pro life” if I may say so in VR than we are in our everyday lives[2010/11/09 15:50]  Morgaine Dinova: Rhi: there can be, but that is not preordained. It’s a central tenet of immersionism that virtual worlds are separate, so when a barrier between two worlds is broken down by choice, such “help” (or bleeding or tainting or interop or whatever) can happen. But it’s a choice, for the immersionist at least.[2010/11/09 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: My primary is not sitting next to Arisia. I am.[2010/11/09 15:50]  Arisia Vita: half a loaf is better than none…[2010/11/09 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i see; yeah, the Pope’s point would be against radical immersionism, i would think[2010/11/09 15:50]  Morgaine Dinova: lol[2010/11/09 15:50]  Archmage Atlantis: True, Rhi, vr is definitely a bigger problem than genocide, poverty, or any of those other out of date concerns.[2010/11/09 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ‘next’ is giving too much importance to physicality ;)[2010/11/09 15:50]  Morgaine Dinova: Nice Ari :-)[2010/11/09 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, radical Immersionism. Another great name for a band! (running joke from another Thinkers meeting)[2010/11/09 15:51]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol Gwyn[2010/11/09 15:51]  Forceme Silverspar: If I talk with my mother face to face or via a telephone, I am still talking with my mother. Will the pope tell me that I am not?[2010/11/09 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But sure, “radicl anything” is rarely good.[2010/11/09 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, forceme[2010/11/09 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: It is ironic that virtual worlds are FAR more real than heaven and hell…… I must say.[2010/11/09 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Good point Forecme, for those of us who chat here; maybe he’s thinking of the role playing[2010/11/09 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: Forcme: if’ts you speaking with your mother it’s one case, if it’s Forceme talking with Ivy, it’s something different :)[2010/11/09 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For some people, hell (or heaven) is in their minds, Scarp, and as real as… well, SL[2010/11/09 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Forceme. But when we talk to Gwyn do we also talk to her primary? We cannot know. We can guess…[2010/11/09 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *scratches head*[2010/11/09 15:52]  Inuoko Shikami: right force, no matter HOW you do it, talking is talking, and emotions are involved. theres always someone on the other side of who you’re talking to[2010/11/09 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: gWell, you have to take my word for it, Extie :)[2010/11/09 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: What I mean is, Gwyn, maybe we never get past the act?[2010/11/09 15:52]  Shorahmin Femto: your virtual head or primary head Gwyn[2010/11/09 15:52]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: ROFL, love it. I can just imagine you hammering away on drums![2010/11/09 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! I’m definitely not such a good actress![2010/11/09 15:53]  Archmage Atlantis: Extie that is true in FL[2010/11/09 15:53]  Forceme Silverspar: I think that’s being picky, Extropia. You have a face for home, a face for work, a face for down the pub with ya mates… no one has just one primary. We all have faces we show to different people.[2010/11/09 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: I guess in the sense that any idea is real. But one can’t physically point to an idea, whereas you can point to Second Life and see and hear it with your senses.[2010/11/09 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Morgaine — no, I have no talent in that area[2010/11/09 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: A good actress would say that;)[2010/11/09 15:53]  Archmage Atlantis: Sometimes we only see the act[2010/11/09 15:53]  Ataraxia Azemus: If “Gwyn the character” is identical to Gwyn the person, does it matter much?[2010/11/09 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t even know where my self is, lol[2010/11/09 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: It does not matter to me either way, since this Gwyn is the only one I know.[2010/11/09 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol Extie — I can’t argue against that!![2010/11/09 15:53]  Shorahmin Femto: spread avross two realities[2010/11/09 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So it come back to the question whether we truly represent ourselves with our avatars?[2010/11/09 15:54]  Inuoko Shikami: Right on point Force, we all have different faces[2010/11/09 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So am i less real if i came as a horse or a Platonic Solid?[2010/11/09 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: Gwyn the character is definitely real I see her and am capable of hearing her.[2010/11/09 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Depends on what you mean by ‘myself’. I am me. I am not my primary.[2010/11/09 15:54]  Archmage Atlantis: There are those who know each other in both sl and rl[2010/11/09 15:54]  Inuoko Shikami: yay for mics ;)[2010/11/09 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe[2010/11/09 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: to an extend, I represent myself better here, than I represent myself with the flesh of my primary[2010/11/09 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is my voice my self, then? 🙂 Hmm[2010/11/09 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: (I didn’t choose the shape of my flesh body :))[2010/11/09 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, this is just a side discussion about the nature of self ;)[2010/11/09 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: What, as a demon?[2010/11/09 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: No one thing is your self, Gwyn.[2010/11/09 15:55]  Inuoko Shikami: It’s easier (in my opinion) to be myself in sl, not rl. Less judgemental people ♥ Less “rules” society creates, more freedom[2010/11/09 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear Extie :)[2010/11/09 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, as a demon :)[2010/11/09 15:55]  Archmage Atlantis: For me, ppl I know in both are one person, or versions of one person[2010/11/09 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: Do we really want to go down the road of defining ‘real’? I mean really? heh[2010/11/09 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope not, Scarp :)[2010/11/09 15:55]  Ataria Akiri: For me, I din’t sl is just another world and I can be someone totally different from me and no one would ever know the difference[2010/11/09 15:55]  Forceme Silverspar: yeah Ivy I hear ya there, I say my friends here know me better, more accurately and deeper than my FL friends.[2010/11/09 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, its not a side issue at all, Ex; if our selves are real here, as avatars, then the Pope’s assertion is only one about focus[2010/11/09 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: We should focus on the suffering oh humanity, not on our own entertainment[2010/11/09 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: I can define it. Reality is the thing that does not go away of you stop believing in it.[2010/11/09 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: *if[2010/11/09 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t believe in SL, it’s here[2010/11/09 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, Extie![2010/11/09 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: :)[2010/11/09 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: If you dwell too much on the suffering of humanity, it’ll crush you.[2010/11/09 15:56]  Morgaine Dinova: Whether we talk to her primary when we talk to Gwyn is not a single question, it’s two. On one level, the answer is obviously Yes because the chat does not answer itself, for the time being. But on a different level, it’s entirely up to Gwyn whether we are talking to her primary, her secondary, or some mixture. Her choice alone to which degree her virtual worlds are separate.[2010/11/09 15:56]  Shorahmin Femto: good Xd[2010/11/09 15:56]  Ataraxia Azemus: “Reality is what hits you in the face when you trip and fall.” :p[2010/11/09 15:56]  Scarp Godenot: If you are playing a part, is that totally different from you or is that playing of the part just another aspect of you?[2010/11/09 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends, Zo — it takes some training, though[2010/11/09 15:57]  Inuoko Shikami: The Pope fails to realize that even in VR like sl, there are charitable events and such, places that do talk about the problems of humanity[2010/11/09 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Could be either, Scarp.[2010/11/09 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There you go, Scarp. And from that, the question is always “when are you playing NO part?”[2010/11/09 15:57]  Archmage Atlantis: I disagree Exite, reality as most of us see it Can go away for a person whom we might consider deluded.[2010/11/09 15:57]  Scarp Godenot: All the worlds a stage…. says the S man….[2010/11/09 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, the talk we have here should be enough of a proof that Pope is wrong :)[2010/11/09 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Inuoko, yes, that was a part i made at the beginning[2010/11/09 15:58]  Morgaine Dinova: “Playing a part” is a term that only an augmentist would use. Unless we’re talking about theater. :P[2010/11/09 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that Extie meant, “for people with an average mental state which is called ‘normal’ (in the sense that it falls in a statistic average)[2010/11/09 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: But I do not think the Pope believes VR worlds have to be a fantasy that draws attention from real issues. Only that there is a danger this could hapen.[2010/11/09 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If it’s a warning against radical immersion, I would consider it a fair warning.[2010/11/09 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, well, i’m sure he would concede that; its that our focus is here and not out there where it should be[2010/11/09 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: existentialists would say that playing a part and being a part are the saem thing, Morg[2010/11/09 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not only existentialists, Scarp ;)[2010/11/09 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: What is this sound I keep hearing like a dying camel? :P[2010/11/09 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: It does in a way. The plight of the Haitians does not concern me. Lag does.[2010/11/09 15:59]  Luisa Bourgoin: sneezing camel…[2010/11/09 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh[2010/11/09 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zobi: Gwyn apparently[2010/11/09 15:59]  Archmage Atlantis: moaning camel[2010/11/09 15:59]  Morgaine Dinova: Scarp: only to the external observal. They are different to the person concerned[2010/11/09 15:59]  Archmage Atlantis: constipated camel[2010/11/09 15:59]  Luisa Bourgoin: imagine a camel suffering from the flu[2010/11/09 15:59]  Shorahmin Femto: we decided earlier that someone left the door open[2010/11/09 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh heh[2010/11/09 15:59]  Inuoko Shikami: The Pope wants to protect us from being hermit crabs trapped in our rooms ignoring the real world. i guess thats fair warning to not ignore rl~[2010/11/09 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, if that’s what he meant, I might agree partially with that warning.[2010/11/09 16:00]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But Ex, i wen to several groups that had as their topic, how to help those in Haite[2010/11/09 16:00]  Forceme Silverspar: I help many people through their FL abuse issues. My medium happens to be SL. Let the Pope tell those people I help that there is a conflict of realities. I know the folks I help end up better off. Pope needs ot get with it and understand the NEW REALITY.[2010/11/09 16:00]  Shorahmin Femto: it is a harmless warning, I think[2010/11/09 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: I shall visit this RL one day. Hope it is all it is cracked up to be.[2010/11/09 16:00]  Morgaine Dinova: Nah. The Pope is simply suffering from a psychiatric delusion, kida simple really.[2010/11/09 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Shorah[2010/11/09 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: what delusion, Morgie?[2010/11/09 16:00]  Darin Dejavu: yes , playing a part and being that part are one in the same ,, we are all mini player on the worlds stage , ,[2010/11/09 16:01]  Luisa Bourgoin: marvelling what made one religious leader giving statements about VRs. at all. emphasise their importance, even[2010/11/09 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, SL is “advertised” as a place for sexual deviations, that might be a point of concern for Pope and enough of a reason to warn the sheep from it[2010/11/09 16:01]  Inuoko Shikami: It is a harmless warning, from anyone but a head figure like the Pope..I think thats where the problem may be.[2010/11/09 16:01]  Morgaine Dinova: The delusion (assuming sincerity on his part) that God and all the trappings are real[2010/11/09 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Luisa! We’re finally worth some attention :)[2010/11/09 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: I think it was more the Web as a whole.[2010/11/09 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: The Pope isn’t capable of much intellectual analyzis, simply because he is contrained by his beliefs into considering alternatives his worldview….. So we really shouldn’t waste our time on considering dogmatic ideas…. .That’s my opinion.[2010/11/09 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: It is if you want it to be, Morgie.[2010/11/09 16:01]  Darin Dejavu: the pope is concerned with imagry ,, and how that it can defy our humanity[2010/11/09 16:01]  Luisa Bourgoin: it’s freebie marketing of highest quality[2010/11/09 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha[2010/11/09 16:02]  Morgaine Dinova: I agree with Scarp on the waste of time, although I’d say it’s a delusion rather than a constraint there.[2010/11/09 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I could say that even the most deluded person, if speaking with a good motivation, might actually be more helpful than harmful.[2010/11/09 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that fair, Scarp? Why is he less capable than anyone here?[2010/11/09 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Inuoko, well, but shouldn’t we take the warning seriously enough to consider thinking–well, maybe my time in SL can be better spent helping ppl?[2010/11/09 16:02]  Luisa Bourgoin: should tease another leader, round-robin wise, every week. Uh … except more dangerous ones, of course. Don’t want to get bombed[2010/11/09 16:02]  Forceme Silverspar: I help people.[2010/11/09 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Vainan![2010/11/09 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, to that i would just say: “oh great idea! I’ll spend more time in SL helping people” :)[2010/11/09 16:03]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: because everyone here knows that God is a delusion. The Pope *apparently* does not.[2010/11/09 16:03]  Scarp Godenot: The pope cannot consider his position to be incorrect and maintain his authority and worldview, Extropia.[2010/11/09 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, good point[2010/11/09 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: He’s “infallible” isn’t he? :D[2010/11/09 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: heh, i feel like i’m playing “Angel’s advocate.”[2010/11/09 16:03]  Darin Dejavu: although people do help others in sl , charity events ect.[2010/11/09 16:03]  Archmage Atlantis: When the pope says that gay people are not acceptable, he sets up the system for teen age suicide and child abusing priests[2010/11/09 16:03]  Inuoko Shikami: VR isn’t going away any time soon..It’s like thinking television or other “scary corrupting technology” will go away… chances are it wont in this lifetime.[2010/11/09 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Zobeid, only when he wants to be; he has to speak ex cathedra[2010/11/09 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: No? Does his position require perfection then?[2010/11/09 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And modern popes tend not to do that[2010/11/09 16:03]  Ataraxia Azemus: Sometimes there are better things I could do with my time than hop on SL. Sometimes there aren’t. There are always worse things.[2010/11/09 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me imagines Pope opening his window to the crowd going all “THERE IS NO GOD, GO HOME”, now that would be something[2010/11/09 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi is right :)[2010/11/09 16:03]  Ataraxia Azemus: Ha![2010/11/09 16:03]  Archmage Atlantis: So “godd” intentions can lead to bad thing[2010/11/09 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ivy, that reminds me of a joke i herd at a catholic university[2010/11/09 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I want to live to see that day![2010/11/09 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: go on then..[2010/11/09 16:04]  Shorahmin Femto: except the last guy Rhi[2010/11/09 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arch: then they’re not good in the first place ;)[2010/11/09 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: what is the joke?[2010/11/09 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: “The Pope annoulnced today that the Second Coming of Christ is imminent. the bad new is that it will take place in Salt Lake City”[2010/11/09 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me wants to hear the joke too[2010/11/09 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha![2010/11/09 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: I’m not saying the pope is unable to analyze anything. He just cannot analyze things that contradict his dogma. This is not allowed in his worldview.[2010/11/09 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mormons are cool ;)[2010/11/09 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not get it.[2010/11/09 16:04]  Vainan Hollow: like who told the pope that[2010/11/09 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me chuckles[2010/11/09 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, you do too, Ex[2010/11/09 16:04]  Forceme Silverspar: There are tons of bed ridden, disabled people, mental helath people who come into SL and FLY! They make friends, have a social life and so on. Who has the right to to class their part of their life as second class?[2010/11/09 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: lmao[2010/11/09 16:04]  Inuoko Shikami: I think embracing it is best, and, like some places in sl are doing, they point of problems humanity faces. I would openly support more sims directed to problems humanity face, but saying VR is bad? i dont buy that[2010/11/09 16:04]  Shorahmin Femto: or “She called from harlem” same joke different punch line[2010/11/09 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: no.[2010/11/09 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, one of my first friends in SL was a dying woman who could live as a vibrant 33 year old in SL[2010/11/09 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: He said it has the potential to be bad. Not that it is intrinsically bad.[2010/11/09 16:05]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: a delusion is a delusion, even if some might consider it helpful. In this particular case of course, it’s massively harmful to the sanity and progress of Mankind, so the fact that a delusion might provide comfort for some is kinda immaterial. It still needs squashing if we’re to progress.[2010/11/09 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, well you see, if Catholicism is right, it would take place in Vatican City[2010/11/09 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh.[2010/11/09 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So the Pope is validating his religion anc cancelling it at the same time in the joke[2010/11/09 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think that the whole point was saying “VRs are bad” but more “extreme immersionism that makes oneself completely isolated from the surrounding world is bad”[2010/11/09 16:05]  Archmage Atlantis: I don’t think the true believers is SLC would find that a joke, merely a prophecy[2010/11/09 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, i think so[2010/11/09 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m using Morgie’s definition of imemrsionism btw[2010/11/09 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Well it is the original and best.[2010/11/09 16:06]  Darin Dejavu: the pope’s announcement is vauge and paradoxal in some ways[2010/11/09 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, i don’t think it would be a problem for an augmentist[2010/11/09 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: How so?[2010/11/09 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not passing any judgement on that, Extie hehe[2010/11/09 16:06]  Luisa Bourgoin: err who is “totally isolated” right here, just now?[2010/11/09 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: And that was a viewpoint I largely agree with, Gwyn.[2010/11/09 16:07]  Darin Dejavu: it’s not a judgement but yet a warning but doesnt condem[2010/11/09 16:07]  Luisa Bourgoin: “isolated” seemingly includes communicating[2010/11/09 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps we’re not True Immersionists, Luisa — we are, after all, discussing RL politics and religion ;)[2010/11/09 16:07]  Shorahmin Femto: my glass is empty luisa[2010/11/09 16:07]  Darin Dejavu: lol[2010/11/09 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Like the people who starve their kids because they’re locked into WoW. :P[2010/11/09 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Tabloid fodder.[2010/11/09 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No… communication is allowed between people inside the same domain (e.g. inside the VW)… just not across boundaries[2010/11/09 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I bet that the fabled true immersionist never really existed.[2010/11/09 16:07]  Inuoko Shikami: lol![2010/11/09 16:08]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn, that makes no sense to the immersionist. If your credo is that worlds are separate (or *separable*, since it’s a choice), then the idea that “it may be bad to separate from RL” is nothing but a plea on behalf of augmentalism. Pretty crass (even ignoring the Pope’s funny about God etc)[2010/11/09 16:08]  Archmage Atlantis: My glass is full, please accept 1/2 :)[2010/11/09 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: Let’s take the popes statement at face value: Does Second Life “make one indifferent to the truth”? Or is that just a content free assertion?[2010/11/09 16:08]  Shorahmin Femto: sip, sip, gulp, more than half, sorry[2010/11/09 16:08]  Archmage Atlantis: :)[2010/11/09 16:08]  Luisa Bourgoin: suddenly, they stick with truth :)[2010/11/09 16:08]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, indifferent to the truth of the world. but no, i go to church here[2010/11/09 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Admittedly, not a Catholic Church lol[2010/11/09 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Thing is Morgie..the total separation of SL from RL is so obviuously wrong that it makes immersionism sound kind of silly.[2010/11/09 16:09]  Ataraxia Azemus: No matter which way you slice it, SL is a sub-world. You’ll always need a computer, electricity, food and basic needs to be here.[2010/11/09 16:09]  Shorahmin Femto: do you receive the sacraments here too Rhi?[2010/11/09 16:09]  Ataraxia Azemus: +met[2010/11/09 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, Morgaine; the problem with exoteric religions like Catholicism is that they’re strongly dualist — there are just two worlds, physical (material) and metaphysical. There is no room for the areas in-between, and when those are encountered,[2010/11/09 16:09]  Morgaine Dinova: What “truth”, Scarp? Much of RL is a *manufactured* reality, manufactured through technology, media, memes, and culture.[2010/11/09 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: a dogmatic problem arises[2010/11/09 16:09]  Inuoko Shikami: About the WOW thing Zobeid, sad to say, I did know a girl in sl that spent more time here than with her 2 year old…example of VR at a not-so-good moment[2010/11/09 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Shoraham, well, not in the Catholic way; but yeah, you could do that here[2010/11/09 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo you must have read Baudrillard, Morgie![2010/11/09 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Gulliver[2010/11/09 16:10]  Shorahmin Femto: I agree Rhi, just testing[2010/11/09 16:10]  Luisa Bourgoin: sacraments no, as far as I understood it’s not acceptable doing similar inworlds[2010/11/09 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello Gulliver[2010/11/09 16:10]  Ataraxia Azemus: /me waits for someone to say “simulacra”[2010/11/09 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: What does “indifferent to the truth” really mean? Is that another way of saying “this will make you not believe as I do”?[2010/11/09 16:10]  Gulliver Homewood: Greetings, sorry I am late.[2010/11/09 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: The body of Christ could be done by an object in SL, just like it can be by a fish cookie in rl[2010/11/09 16:10]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Gulliver[2010/11/09 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gulliver: you are forgiven, next time it will be whipping[2010/11/09 16:10]  Morgaine Dinova: Virtual realities are just more manufactured realities. The main difference is that they can go in far more flexible directions than the manufactured realities of the physical world.[2010/11/09 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘Disney land is there to make people forget that it is all of America that is Disneyland’- Baudrillard.[2010/11/09 16:11]  Shorahmin Femto: wheat cookie actually[2010/11/09 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Scarp, and I’m still assuming good intentions behind the Pope’s saying, if he means that someone so deeply immersed in VWs is so completely shut out from everything outside their minds, then the warning is fair.[2010/11/09 16:11]  Morgaine Dinova: Atara: good word :-)[2010/11/09 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Shorahmin, Catholic again;[2010/11/09 16:11]  Ataraxia Azemus: :p[2010/11/09 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: He meant that, when you visit the fantastical world of disneyland, your RL with its highstreets and brands and stuff seems real, when in fact it is just as manufactured and fake.[2010/11/09 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I read where one family had to leave the Catholic Church in favor of Episopalian, as their son was deadly allergic to weat and the Bishop wouldn’t vary it for them[2010/11/09 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: …?[2010/11/09 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Ut?[2010/11/09 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What??[2010/11/09 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, what just happened?[2010/11/09 16:12]  Archmage Atlantis: IF a piece of bread dough can become the actual flesh, and a thimble of grape juice can become the true blood, ….then surely the power exists to transform a vr representation[2010/11/09 16:12]  Ataraxia Azemus: Zoom out[2010/11/09 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: We seem to be in a box.[2010/11/09 16:12]  Ataraxia Azemus: And behold the….guy?[2010/11/09 16:12]  Gulliver Homewood: Huh?[2010/11/09 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, griefing time lol[2010/11/09 16:12]  Shorahmin Femto: true Rhi, Stupidity is not barred from the Church though[2010/11/09 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha[2010/11/09 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that God?[2010/11/09 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably ![2010/11/09 16:12]  Inuoko Shikami: lol[2010/11/09 16:12]  Ataria Akiri: Is there a point to that picture?[2010/11/09 16:12]  Vainan Hollow: omg cher passed me this and i wore it i cant detach it[2010/11/09 16:13]  Morgaine Dinova: There is rather little absolute truth, when you really analyse it, outside of the closed spaces of maths and similar. Even the observed facts of physics are surprisingly elusive when you dig deep.[2010/11/09 16:13]  Archmage Atlantis: God is a griefer, should have known :[2010/11/09 16:13]  Archmage Atlantis: :)[2010/11/09 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: we might have just witness the first documented revelation[2010/11/09 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me chuckless[2010/11/09 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: it’s not worn … jsut rightclick->delete[2010/11/09 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And i can no longer see everyone[2010/11/09 16:13]  Morgaine Dinova: /me derenders the box[2010/11/09 16:13]  Archmage Atlantis: I was hoping for a cheesus[2010/11/09 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Genesis 1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him”[2010/11/09 16:13]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol[2010/11/09 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: So Gwyn: is the pope referring to some futuristic VR like The Matrix? Certainly that by definition cuts the mind off from the world…..[2010/11/09 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: correction: And God created man to his own image, with shades and baseball bat…[2010/11/09 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fun, since I’m inside the box, I can see you all.[2010/11/09 16:14]  Shorahmin Femto: wrong, Gwyn … and God created them in his own image, man and woman he …[2010/11/09 16:14]  Morgaine Dinova: Can you expell the griefer please[2010/11/09 16:14]  Ataria Akiri: Should religion be a part of secondlife?[2010/11/09 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Well who is it, Morgie?[2010/11/09 16:14]  Forceme Silverspar: Vainan Hollow[2010/11/09 16:14]  Morgaine Dinova: Dunno, I derender all the boxes as they appear[2010/11/09 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: de-render?[2010/11/09 16:15]  Ataraxia Azemus: Well…too late, Ataria (nice name, btw :p )[2010/11/09 16:15]  Morgaine Dinova: yes it’s Vainan Hollow[2010/11/09 16:15]  Inuoko Shikami: there are so many religions..but sl im more cabable of handling differences so, i say why not?[2010/11/09 16:15]  Inuoko Shikami: capable*[2010/11/09 16:15]  Morgaine Dinova: Imprudence can derender any object. Lots of TPVs can do that[2010/11/09 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: sorry, was spaced out there… heh[2010/11/09 16:15]  Ataria Akiri: Thank you Ataraxia. Love yours, lol[2010/11/09 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re forgiven, Scarp :)[2010/11/09 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Well I cannot see this person. Did they leave already?[2010/11/09 16:16]  Ataraxia Azemus: :)[2010/11/09 16:16]  Luisa Bourgoin: Morg, but sim physics woun’t ignore em[2010/11/09 16:16]  Forceme Silverspar: Yep, left a while back.[2010/11/09 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they just dropped the box and left[2010/11/09 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Shame. I never get to eject people.[2010/11/09 16:16]  Morgaine Dinova: Hehe[2010/11/09 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aw. It’s much more fun to freeze them first![2010/11/09 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: ..Anyone have more to say on the topic?[2010/11/09 16:17]  Shorahmin Femto: there should be a more painful form of ejection…[2010/11/09 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yes, really[2010/11/09 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: that was distracting[2010/11/09 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: I’m so glad nobody of us actually *is* god … look at how we react on a box![2010/11/09 16:17]  Gulliver Homewood: I sent an abuse report[2010/11/09 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i like to see you all and myself at the same time[2010/11/09 16:17]  Forceme Silverspar: Then cut their knackers off. I have the tools.[2010/11/09 16:17]  Archmage Atlantis: Me too Gulliver[2010/11/09 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well sure! What if we replaced “VRs” with “heavy drinking”? Would the Pope’s comment still apply?[2010/11/09 16:17]  Morgaine Dinova: Luisa: indeed, the region gets slugged. But at least the viewers don’t on derendering. I use it all the time to make meeting places better, like removing walls.[2010/11/09 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: Vainan Hollow if any of you want to file reports. is the name[2010/11/09 16:17]  Shorahmin Femto: what is a “knacker”?[2010/11/09 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: That would not work. Griefers have no balls to begin with![2010/11/09 16:17]  Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha[2010/11/09 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i will[2010/11/09 16:18]  Shorahmin Femto: that answers that[2010/11/09 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: what if we replace Pope with Obama[2010/11/09 16:18]  Darin Dejavu: i dunno bout that ,, lol , heavy drinking , accualy improves humanity[2010/11/09 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: the more reports, the more likelike they will do something[2010/11/09 16:18]  Forceme Silverspar: /me blushes and dives her face into the cushion.[2010/11/09 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haah darin![2010/11/09 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: ..We all done?[2010/11/09 16:18]  Ataraxia Azemus: He said Cher gave him the item, if anyone else ARs[2010/11/09 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point was picking another activity which, when used to the extreme, will also shut people out of theirenvironment.[2010/11/09 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Can I wrap this discussion up?[2010/11/09 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: what category did you use?[2010/11/09 16:19]  Archmage Atlantis: Yes, pls Extie, pls[2010/11/09 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, what category did you use?[2010/11/09 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww we’re missing the opportunity of using anothr 12 minutes…[2010/11/09 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, griefing works.[2010/11/09 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One silly box, and we finish earlier[2010/11/09 16:19]  Shorahmin Femto: and Pope got off lightly I think[2010/11/09 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, we can refocus[2010/11/09 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Shorah.[2010/11/09 16:19]  Ataria Akiri: Can we use that other 12 minutes to get abck on topic![2010/11/09 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Well if someone has more to say on the actual topic, feel free to say it.[2010/11/09 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pope and griefers score.[2010/11/09 16:19]  Shorahmin Femto: LOL[2010/11/09 16:19]  Archmage Atlantis: Assuming there was a topic[2010/11/09 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just did, Extie[2010/11/09 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: Pope did not get off lightly. The men with the white van and straighjacket are knocking on his door right now[2010/11/09 16:20]  Luisa Bourgoin: err … now … can VRs give a statement about religions?[2010/11/09 16:20]  Gulliver Homewood: Disturbing the Peace object littering[2010/11/09 16:20]  Ataraxia Azemus: I think we all agree, though. Virtual worlds can be meaningful, excess is bad and old people are always confused by new things.[2010/11/09 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: dammit, 3 more prims like that and I might convert[2010/11/09 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me chuckles[2010/11/09 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Morgie —… the problem is that they are bishops too ;)[2010/11/09 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: Umph[2010/11/09 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: Damn I hate bishops[2010/11/09 16:20]  Forceme Silverspar: The pope is elected by his people, he has the right to speak as their leader. As he is not my leader, I will smile politely at his words.[2010/11/09 16:20]  Ataria Akiri: How many ppl are in sl vs. how many ppl. are in the real world?[2010/11/09 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i think the pope’s remarks made us think about how we cn use SL to help ppl[2010/11/09 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And think about how to manage our time here[2010/11/09 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Atari — the point being that “excess is bad” in pretty much everything. VWs are just one of the things that we can use “in excess”[2010/11/09 16:20]  Shorahmin Femto: so it worked?[2010/11/09 16:20]  Archmage Atlantis: Do I count myself in both Ataria?[2010/11/09 16:21]  Luisa Bourgoin: I do fear we are not standing on equal levels there … every leader of what ever group can give out statements about the “eefects of VRs on .. hamsters” or similar quality[2010/11/09 16:21]  Archmage Atlantis: 2 here then[2010/11/09 16:21]  Ataraxia Azemus: Exactly, and not even the most damaging :)[2010/11/09 16:21]  Archmage Atlantis: or 1[2010/11/09 16:21]  Archmage Atlantis: I’m confused[2010/11/09 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope so, Rhi. That would actually be the best reaction to the Pope’s comments.[2010/11/09 16:21]  Morgaine Dinova: Luisa: Think Of The Hamsters![2010/11/09 16:21]  Inuoko Shikami: Yep Lui, we need some large-scale spokesperson FOR VR[2010/11/09 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm :)[2010/11/09 16:21]  Ataria Akiri: Yes Archmage. You can’t expect to save everyone when everyone is not in a vw[2010/11/09 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Torley? lol[2010/11/09 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: My final word: From my point of view the pope is just another guy with an opinion. We don’t have to seriously consider his opinion unless we really respect it. To me it is just a statement that asks for maintenance of his control over others. Nothing more. Irrelevant in my world until he takes actions to limit VR…….[2010/11/09 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: every time you log in to SL, God kills a hamster, think of the hamsters![2010/11/09 16:22]  Forceme Silverspar: I don’t think there is a bigger “group” on earth than the RC, is there?[2010/11/09 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: omg! :)God, the Serial Killer![2010/11/09 16:22]  Forceme Silverspar: As leader, he does have influence over a lot of people.[2010/11/09 16:22]  Luisa Bourgoin: Torley could state that catholicism, sometimes, s*c*s too[2010/11/09 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually no, Forceme, you’re right[2010/11/09 16:22]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, but they’re *evil* hamsters, guys[2010/11/09 16:22]  Ataraxia Azemus: So it’s okay :)[2010/11/09 16:23]  Ataria Akiri: Enough with the hamsters[2010/11/09 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’ll just have to convert the Pope then ;)[2010/11/09 16:23]  Shorahmin Femto: Forceme, that influence varys from absolute to very faint[2010/11/09 16:23]  Luisa Bourgoin: you can’t justify killing in any form (!)[2010/11/09 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: get him a sexy female avatar and drop him in Zindra… ;)[2010/11/09 16:23]  Archmage Atlantis: Moving on too mice and gerbils….[2010/11/09 16:23]  Morgaine Dinova: An immersionist spokesperson on VWs would be a bit like a spokesperson from the Libertarian Party: “Vote for me and I will immediately disband government and myself”.[2010/11/09 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Morgie[2010/11/09 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, the Pope generated a debate, which may be all he wanted to do[2010/11/09 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Better test that before trying it on the Pope. Let’s use Arisia. . .[2010/11/09 16:23]  Forceme Silverspar: Yep, but still influence? I heard “Once a RC, always a RC”[2010/11/09 16:24]  Archmage Atlantis: OOOh, like that one Morgaine :)[2010/11/09 16:24]  Arisia Vita: me?[2010/11/09 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: OO nobody picks on my beloved Arisia!![2010/11/09 16:24]  Luisa Bourgoin: Morg, that’s sounding like a smart bomb talking about triggers[2010/11/09 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, Rhi :)[2010/11/09 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hands off Arisia, he’s sacred ground! :)[2010/11/09 16:24]  Arisia Vita: ty Gwyn[2010/11/09 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: The LP doesn’t want to abolish government, you’re thinking anarchist there.[2010/11/09 16:24]  Shorahmin Femto: how does one become “Sacred Ground?”[2010/11/09 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: A Philosophy Island senator ran on the platform, “Vote for me and you’ll never see me again.” But like all politicians he broke his campagin promise. ::sigh::[2010/11/09 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: LP?[2010/11/09 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Libertarian Party[2010/11/09 16:25]  Luisa Bourgoin: now I would really like to know how far the church features representations inside SL[2010/11/09 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay — from religion to anarchy — we’re getting better at our meetings :)[2010/11/09 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Thanks.[2010/11/09 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: Shorahmin: divine intervention? :)[2010/11/09 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rhi[2010/11/09 16:25]  Morgaine Dinova: By definition, you can’t speak for, and even less represent immersionist VWs, because they are intentionally separate.[2010/11/09 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Luisa, i don’t know about the Catholic church, but there is a thriving church community in SL[2010/11/09 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhhh excellent point, Morgie![2010/11/09 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There used to be a few Jesuits in SL, Rhi[2010/11/09 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Morg, lmao[2010/11/09 16:25]  Ataraxia Azemus: You could have an avatar be your spokesperson, as the spokesperson for Radical Immersionism :p[2010/11/09 16:25]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: we must be imnipotent! Maybe even the pope would agree :-)[2010/11/09 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha[2010/11/09 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would :)[2010/11/09 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: The church community in SL may be thriving, but it is tiny compared to the whole…..[2010/11/09 16:26]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I met some feminist Muslim women; they invited me to their temple[2010/11/09 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Do I have to forsake my immersionist credentials if I go to Blue Mars and act like I am the same person there as here?[2010/11/09 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I can’t speak for the Pope, my God mode is turned off by the Lindens ;)[2010/11/09 16:26]  Luisa Bourgoin: Rhi: I cannot really imagine…[2010/11/09 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: Interesting point extie….[2010/11/09 16:26]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, but would you be the same person? I’m going to give a talk on the psychology of alts; i don’t think you would be in another grid[2010/11/09 16:27]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: certainly not. You can be a visitor from this world to that, or consider them one and the same world, or anything you like. Your choice.[2010/11/09 16:27]  Shorahmin Femto: out of time folks, good fun and interesting. nite all[2010/11/09 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: nite Shora![2010/11/09 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me likes having choices.[2010/11/09 16:27]  Morgaine Dinova: Cya Shorah[2010/11/09 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye:)[2010/11/09 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ee you, Shorah![2010/11/09 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: nini Shorahmin[2010/11/09 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *see[2010/11/09 16:27]  Ataraxia Azemus: Bye Shorah[2010/11/09 16:27]  Archmage Atlantis: Come to Thinkers SL Improv group – that could be the mantra[2010/11/09 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: om to that![2010/11/09 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: ommmm[2010/11/09 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: ommmm[2010/11/09 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: ommmm[2010/11/09 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: omna padi humbug[2010/11/09 16:27]  Ataria Akiri: Bye Bye![2010/11/09 16:27]  Liany Jules: bye[2010/11/09 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: omna padi humbug[2010/11/09 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rhi[2010/11/09 16:27]  Morgaine Dinova: nom nom nom[2010/11/09 16:28]  Archmage Atlantis: Exite, pl clse, pls pls[2010/11/09 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: bye! Ataria, Liany[2010/11/09 16:28]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol[2010/11/09 16:28]  Ataraxia Azemus: Bye Ataria and Liany![2010/11/09 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes to whoever is leaving :)[2010/11/09 16:28]  Liany Jules: bye![2010/11/09 16:28]  Archmage Atlantis: You wasted almost all of the 12 minutes for the absoultists[2010/11/09 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: .-)[2010/11/09 16:28]  Luisa Bourgoin: oh, omm omm nom nom nom does makes sense in a way[2010/11/09 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: Rhiannon, the psychology of alts is a fascinating topic. I find surprisingly that the house I build and funished as my alt doesn’t feel like my home when I am in SL as me….. (Scarp me… ha ha). Bizarre but true.[2010/11/09 16:28]  Ataraxia Azemus: And hamsters![2010/11/09 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Welll..If I went to Blue Mars and stayed there, in time my Ubuntu Web would be different and my future would turn out differently. The question is whether enough of my SL identity remains.[2010/11/09 16:28]  Inuoko Shikami: Bye everyone![2010/11/09 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, bizaare but i think psychologically sound[2010/11/09 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Inuoko![2010/11/09 16:29]  Ataraxia Azemus: Nighty Inuoko[2010/11/09 16:29]  Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Inu[2010/11/09 16:29]  Forceme Silverspar: Thank you and bye bye everyone.[2010/11/09 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: OK I am calling time![2010/11/09 16:29]  Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Forc[2010/11/09 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A very interesting topic for next time, Extie :)[2010/11/09 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: evil hamsters from hell 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK..PANPSYCHISM

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