Thinkers October 26 2010: INTERFACE VALUE.

Extropia DaSilva: Ok..welcome to Thinkers![2010/10/26 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Today we are discussing…[2010/10/26 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: TAKING THINGS AT INTERFACE VALUE: Taken at interface value, Facebook is there to help you make friends. But on a deeper level, it is tilted toward a specific set of commercial interests. Is this dual meaning true of all services we use on the Web, and are we opening ourselves up to exploitation when we use things we only superficially understand?[2010/10/26 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: Great name for a Beauty Queen: “Miss Next Week”[2010/10/26 15:34]  Ataraxia Azemus: Ha! I like that.[2010/10/26 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hehe Scarp 😉 )[2010/10/26 15:34]  Conover’s Flight-Helper 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.[2010/10/26 15:34]  Sunfire Langer: miss next week is so last week[2010/10/26 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: As we lost Lem during the intro, I will repeat it..[2010/10/26 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is Google *really* not Evil? ;)[2010/10/26 15:34]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, let’s make her Miss week and a half, so she bridges beween last week and next week[2010/10/26 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: TAKING THINGS AT INTERFACE VALUE: Taken at interface value, Facebook is there to help you make friends. But on a deeper level, it is tilted toward a specific set of commercial interests. Is this dual meaning true of all services we use on the Web, and are we opening ourselves up to exploitation when we use things we only superficially understand?[2010/10/26 15:34]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Maybe Miss fortnight[2010/10/26 15:35]  Lem Skall: oh ty[2010/10/26 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve never used Facebook so I may have difficulty understand the premise. . .[2010/10/26 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: is making money for social services evil?[2010/10/26 15:35]  Lem Skall: FB is there to keep friends, not to make them[2010/10/26 15:35]  Ataraxia Azemus: Facebook is evil.[2010/10/26 15:35]  Ataraxia Azemus: Okay. Out of my system.[2010/10/26 15:35]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I would think that the question is whether there’s dovetailing of interests[2010/10/26 15:35]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Xio![2010/10/26 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: why is it evil?[2010/10/26 15:36]  Xio Legion: hi everybody[2010/10/26 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello![2010/10/26 15:36]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Its only evil if you believe that the owners are supposed to serve you and not themselves[2010/10/26 15:36]  Xio Legion: /me waits for stuff to rez[2010/10/26 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The premise can apply to pretty much everything, Zo. Do you use Gmail, for instance?[2010/10/26 15:36]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Luisa![2010/10/26 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: I do use Gmail, yes.[2010/10/26 15:36]  Luisa Bourgoin: hullo![2010/10/26 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, you *do* know what Google makes with all your emails, right?[2010/10/26 15:37]  Sunfire Langer: practise advertising[2010/10/26 15:37]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, paper mache airplanes?[2010/10/26 15:37]  Luisa Bourgoin: I can *feel* a chair … must be near here[2010/10/26 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rhi — no, they make *billions*, and that’s in US$[2010/10/26 15:37]  Scarp Godenot: I think that the commercial back interest thing is going to always be present to some degree in services that are Free. Paid for things maybe not so much.[2010/10/26 15:37]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And advertising is only wrong if you believe that they should serve you and not themselves[2010/10/26 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.[2010/10/26 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes you are standing in front of one…ah there you go.[2010/10/26 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: I gather they process it in some way to target advertising. . .[2010/10/26 15:37]  Ataraxia Azemus: It’s evil because it’s completely unnecessary. It doesn’t really add value to anything or make keeping in touch with people any easier. It’s just a trendy marketing rabbit hole with probably one more year before it’s the boarded up abandoned mall that is Myspace.[2010/10/26 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, precisely, Zo. It’s worth billions.[2010/10/26 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Ha ha, Ataraxia, not likely.[2010/10/26 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins @ Atari — I certainly hope so![2010/10/26 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Not sure why its worth so much, I rarely ever see their ads, and I ignore them when I do.[2010/10/26 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You all know how Facebook *started*, right?[2010/10/26 15:38]  Sunfire Langer: Owners serving themselves is not intrinsically bad – selling & recording your activities without direct consent is[2010/10/26 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo, but billions do see them.[2010/10/26 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: A few pence from a few billion people is worth quite a bit.[2010/10/26 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yep![2010/10/26 15:39]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, quiet, I haven’t seen the movie yet[2010/10/26 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, we consent by using the product; if there is a dovetailing of interests and the practices are ecological, then why not?[2010/10/26 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: I’veactually heard arguments that Google isn’t going to be viable in the long run. . .[2010/10/26 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Lem[2010/10/26 15:39]  Scarp Godenot: Facebook is the most popular internet application by far of all applications ever invented. Many people live to live there already. It isn’t going away soon.[2010/10/26 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the reality might not be depicted fully in the movie though[2010/10/26 15:39]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yay…five minutes late and right on time…[2010/10/26 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp is right.[2010/10/26 15:39]  Sunfire Langer: tacit consent is a dangerous idea in the business world – it can be extremely loose in its application, Rhi[2010/10/26 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: aye, long-term. I don’t think that they can survive on only *one* product[2010/10/26 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Microsoft did with Windows….[2010/10/26 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But they were clever![2010/10/26 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, the point is still if my interests are served and the owners of Facebook’s interest are served, and i’m not being defrauded of anything of value, where’s the harm?[2010/10/26 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, good point, Rhi[2010/10/26 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: The idea of tacit consent is a political one, not a marketplace one[2010/10/26 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My concerns are just under the hood.[2010/10/26 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, the non-visible face of Facebook[2010/10/26 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You also know *who* owns Facebook… right?[2010/10/26 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: thanks, Gwyn[2010/10/26 15:41]  Luisa Bourgoin: when will google/facebook bubble burst?[2010/10/26 15:41]  Sunfire Langer: the idea of tacit consent is a personal one when it has personal consequences[2010/10/26 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: What if there is harm but you do not realise it is happening? Does harm you cannot feel matter at all?[2010/10/26 15:41]  Scarp Godenot: Rhiannon, the harm is that your personal data is being mined without you knowing where it is going. Nor do you have the right to know where it is going.[2010/10/26 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Sunfire, it might be, but again its the quesiton of dovetailing[2010/10/26 15:41]  Ataraxia Azemus: AOL was filled those shoes, too, Scarp :p[2010/10/26 15:41]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, Jews own FaceBook?[2010/10/26 15:41]  Ataraxia Azemus: was = once[2010/10/26 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, no :P[2010/10/26 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, that’s a specific practice, Scarp, and maybe that should be changed or modified[2010/10/26 15:41]  Sunfire Langer: please denebulise that term, Rhi[2010/10/26 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Doesn’t mean “all of Facebook” is evil[2010/10/26 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: The irony of GMail is that I would *pay* for it. It’s that good. (But I probably would have never tried it and found out how good it was, if I had to pay for it.)[2010/10/26 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The largest scamming & spamming company of Russia owns Facebook…. after buying Farmville[2010/10/26 15:42]  Lem Skall: Zuckerberg IS Jewish[2010/10/26 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zuckerberg is just a petty criminal, he’s playing in the Big League now[2010/10/26 15:42]  Sunfire Langer: is that relevant, Lem?[2010/10/26 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Dovetailing? Its when my interests and X’s interest coincide. As when say I tutor someone and he pays for my time; we have coincident interests; I’m borrowing it from Labordie’s “Influencing with Integrity.”[2010/10/26 15:42]  Lem Skall: what is NOT relevant?[2010/10/26 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: Rhiannon, the entire business model of Facebook is based on “lead Generation’ which is business speak for data mining.[2010/10/26 15:43]  Ataraxia Azemus: I do like Gmail, honestly, and I abuse it by using it for personal things without really trusting it any more than any other creepy data mining thingie. But what can you do?[2010/10/26 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, and again, what is wrong with that? You need to generate leads to stay in business[2010/10/26 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like Gmail too :)[2010/10/26 15:43]  Sunfire Langer: ethnic origin in terms of personality and integrity, Lem[2010/10/26 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: How does Wikipedia fit into this discussion, I wonder? Is it the anti-Facebok, philosophically speaking?[2010/10/26 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But at least Google is not run by the Mob 😛 Not yet at least[2010/10/26 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really, Zo[2010/10/26 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: As we are all users of SL, would you like to know what the Rosedale’s longterm goal for SL is (or was, he might have changed his mind since this quote).[2010/10/26 15:43]  Luisa Bourgoin: gmail … soso. but google wave has been promising new approach in technology[2010/10/26 15:44]  Lem Skall: I didn’t say anything in terms of personality or integrity[2010/10/26 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: Rhiannon: The harm in that is that the data is going to nefarious scammers and criminals. And noone is stopping it….. YET.[2010/10/26 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But at least it has an advantage: everybody is free to become a Wiktator :)[2010/10/26 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa: Gwave is officially dead.[2010/10/26 15:44]  Sunfire Langer: so mutual interest; fine. But if somebody whelches on the deal – cheats you out of more than you agreed to, shouldnt you have grounds to object, Rhi?[2010/10/26 15:44]  Luisa Bourgoin: yes dead, but code still floating[2010/10/26 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.[2010/10/26 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, well that is a different issue than lead generation; and yeah, i’m willing to admit there should be privacy regulation[2010/10/26 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: so, are we going to speak about FB being evil, or the actual process of “making friends” via “web interfaces”?[2010/10/26 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Sunfire, well, of course, Sunfire,[2010/10/26 15:44]  Luisa Bourgoin: or take a look at these collaborative editors, etherpad … it’S influenced by Wave[2010/10/26 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: Lead Generation = Data Mining. It is the same thing[2010/10/26 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scrap regulation — you can always elude regulation by shuffling countries, Rhi :P[2010/10/26 15:45]  Sunfire Langer: thats the objection to facebook, then, Rhiannon[2010/10/26 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But i haven’t heard how Facebook is welching on any deal[2010/10/26 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is whole bunch of people NOT using facebook[2010/10/26 15:45]  Lem Skall: actually, I don’t understand today’s topic, otherwise I would say moreon it[2010/10/26 15:45]  Ataraxia Azemus: /me waves[2010/10/26 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, well, true enough, but then so what?[2010/10/26 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: merely 1.5 billion people are out of it, but they will be in Facebook soon too[2010/10/26 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, don’t let that stop you. ;)[2010/10/26 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: I will? :/[2010/10/26 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: Rhiannon, you aske the question. What is the harm. I answered it.[2010/10/26 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: I wouldn’t be so sure :)[2010/10/26 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, Lem, it’s about what is hidden beneath the happy interface of those social thingies[2010/10/26 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Ivy we are talking about all services on the web and whether they have an agenda that is not the one the public sees, one hidden behind a layer.[2010/10/26 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: I will give another example…[2010/10/26 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So the harm in lead generation is data mining? But then that raises the further quesion, what is the harm in data mining?[2010/10/26 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it’s not TOO hidden in the case of Facebook and Google….[2010/10/26 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: indeed[2010/10/26 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah…. mmmh….[2010/10/26 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: What do you think SL is FOR?[2010/10/26 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: let me give you a link, Rhi![2010/10/26 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Ultimately?[2010/10/26 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and GOOD QUESTION, Extie!!!)[2010/10/26 15:46]  Lem Skall: what do I care about what is under the hood of a car as long a it takes me from A to B?[2010/10/26 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And we seem to be using emotional language–does any one believe that a guy named Boris is going to shou up to break you arms, cuz ur using Facebook?[2010/10/26 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s why I contrasted Wikipedia. It appears on the surface to be very helpful, but underneath the surface their *real* agenda. . . is to be helpful. :)[2010/10/26 15:46]  Sunfire Langer: I’m quite sure these big organisations inherently do, Extropia, the statements of Eric Schmidt a few months back were terrifying[2010/10/26 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought it was a simulation of social activity to weed out good leaders for the future corporations![2010/10/26 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: OK, I see I have not made myself clear. When you SELL personal mined data to criminals and scammers, that is a BAD thing. No? And that is exactly what facebook has done in the past.[2010/10/26 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: people invent and implement big services on the internet to…. wait for it…. wait for it…. waaaaait for it…. make money, what a surprise :P[2010/10/26 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: From this Rosedale quote, it is clear that SL or its successor is a laboratory for developing AI as a stepping stone on the way to conquering death,..[2010/10/26 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Lem, yes and no…. would you buy a car that is actually manufactured at a plant which is owned by drug dealers in Colombia?[2010/10/26 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: “All we have to do now is figure out how to escape death. There will be things there in SL that will be able to think. [Whether] that means we’ll be able to like upload ourselves, I don’t know about that…I think that the most interesting of our progeny will be things that are pure computation. It’ll be possible for constructs that we build in SL and things like it in a simulated space to actually think..We’re helping because we’re going in as avatars. It’s simply the fact that if the system is big enough and has enough complexity…people will come out from the dust”.[2010/10/26 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe[2010/10/26 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Sure, Scarp, and a specific practice to address; but it doesn’t mean taht Facebook is inherently bad[2010/10/26 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: -Rosedale.[2010/10/26 15:48]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, yes[2010/10/26 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You would? I’m surprised![2010/10/26 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, oh, good analogy[2010/10/26 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Facebook is not inherently bad, Rhi, just the people behind it :)[2010/10/26 15:48]  Ataraxia Azemus: Huh. Philip really is Newman Rogers.[2010/10/26 15:48]  Sunfire Langer: but that would be our consciousness copied; as a simulation. No guarantee our locative-awareness would transfer into the machinery, Extropia[2010/10/26 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Incidentally, this discussion reminds me a bit of Apple’s announcement that they’re opening an App Store for the Macintosh.[2010/10/26 15:49]  Lem Skall: I can buy a German car so why not one from Colombian drug cartels[2010/10/26 15:49]  Lem Skall: ?[2010/10/26 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: After al, “bad” and “good” just make sense related to intentions and motivation — there are no “inherently bad” *things*[2010/10/26 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh..that is another discussion topic though.[2010/10/26 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: No one said Facebook is inherently bad. What was said is that data mining unregulated by anyone or anything CAN be bad. And HAS been bad. So it is not all sweetness and light out there.[2010/10/26 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: They aren’t locking down the platform, it’ll still be possible to get programs through other sources. (for a while)[2010/10/26 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: But the point is, what of you did not know that was the point of SL? DID you know that was the point?[2010/10/26 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: we shouldn’t really be afraid of things that *CAN* be bad[2010/10/26 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Static![2010/10/26 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Horror movie trailer about data mining: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHWO4UHmr_o (should be out on Halloween!)[2010/10/26 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s paranoid[2010/10/26 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello Static[2010/10/26 15:50]  Static Melody: hello[2010/10/26 15:50]  Sunfire Langer: it doesnt matter if it doesnt immediately affect one’s SL experience, Extropia[2010/10/26 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good point, Ivy :)[2010/10/26 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: You are not paranoid if they actually are out to get you btw.[2010/10/26 15:50]  Lem Skall: Scarp, owning and driving a car is also bad for the environment and yet we do it anyway[2010/10/26 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Scarp![2010/10/26 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Not as bad as the smell of all the horse manure if all the people who drive vehicles drove a pony and carriage instead;)[2010/10/26 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, the problem with SL is that we’re assuming that LL *knows* what it’s for :)[2010/10/26 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: Hey I’m not defending shutting this stuff down, I’m just saying that it is all a bunch of trade offs that need to be considered……[2010/10/26 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s…. attributing too much intelligence to the Lindens ;)[2010/10/26 15:51]  Lem Skall: is lag bad only for me or for everyone here?[2010/10/26 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I am…OK.[2010/10/26 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: /me isn’t having any problem.[2010/10/26 15:52]  Ataraxia Azemus: It comes and goes for me too, Lem[2010/10/26 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: not for me, either, Lem[2010/10/26 15:52]  Lem Skall: ok[2010/10/26 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: no lag for me[2010/10/26 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: I don’t think them not knowing what it’s for is a bad thing, quite contrary, it’s more of a “let’s give it to people and see what they do with it” deal[2010/10/26 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe I hope so, Ivy![2010/10/26 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Well…SL is marketed as ‘your world/your imagination’ and I would say that, at best, that is only a half truth. It IS built by our collective imagination but do We really OWN it?[2010/10/26 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: + “and let’s get rich in the process”[2010/10/26 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me winks[2010/10/26 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because sometimes it does look like: “uh, we have no clue why people use SL, but, so far as they use it and pay us tier, who cares?”[2010/10/26 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, that was the OLD motto[2010/10/26 15:53]  Lem Skall: the bad part in SL is that it’s “let’s let people build what they want and then we will control it”[2010/10/26 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was abandoned.[2010/10/26 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extropia, but again the language isn’t dishonest; you can make SL the way you want it[2010/10/26 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: What is it now?[2010/10/26 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: true, Lem![2010/10/26 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s what Lem said![2010/10/26 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: I am sure it is still on the Website.[2010/10/26 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No… actually, it’s “Fast, Easy, Fun”[2010/10/26 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, who are you talking about? I know some sim owners are like that, but don’t perceive the lindens that way[2010/10/26 15:54]  Lem Skall: Extie, thatwas gone long ago[2010/10/26 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, check it out; it’s long gone[2010/10/26 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: I stand corrected:)[2010/10/26 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you can take a look at http://archive.org and see when it was removed[2010/10/26 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: my guess is, shortly after M Linden became CEO[2010/10/26 15:55]  Lem Skall: Rhi, I am referring especially to starting with “your world, your imagination” and then taking that away, even if that was not the plan[2010/10/26 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Your World; We Have No Imagination”[2010/10/26 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, could you give an example where that has actually happened?[2010/10/26 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: yes ha ha Fast Easy and Fun. “Medium slow to medium fast depending on your connection and hardware, a little bit hard, but fun after you give it a chance” Should be the real slogan…. ha ha ha[2010/10/26 15:55]  Lem Skall: the olg slogan was obsolete long before it was actually removed[2010/10/26 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Scarp!!!![2010/10/26 15:56]  Jacek Shuftan: dont LIndens try to balance between giving freedom to users and getting bancrupt because of too much freedom ( not mentioning RL government influences) ?[2010/10/26 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, lmao[2010/10/26 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t know if they even *try*, Jacek…[2010/10/26 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It all looks like they folow the Chaos Theory of Management…[2010/10/26 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, the lindens do respond to government regulations[2010/10/26 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s true, Rhi[2010/10/26 15:56]  Lem Skall: Rhis, LL has been forced to take more and more control over SL, starting with banning financial institutions and gambling and with zoning sex regions[2010/10/26 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp, I think it means more ‘god, having to rez a box and then click on it to unpack what you ‘bought’ so you can then wear it…ridiculous! We must make the process simpler than that’.[2010/10/26 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: When I think back to my time as a noob, the things I remember most are. . . 1. Stuff not working right, and 2. the painfully complicated and user-hostile UI.[2010/10/26 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What changed? :)[2010/10/26 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, true, but except for the gambling, it’s all like traffic regulations, you can still do what you want, but you have to go to certain regions[2010/10/26 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Both have improved. . . a bit. :/[2010/10/26 15:57]  Lem Skall: Rhi, it is not OURS anymore[2010/10/26 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Zo…. yes, a bit[2010/10/26 15:57]  Ataraxia Azemus: But it never really was…no matter what you make, it’s never really *yours* :[[2010/10/26 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: not enough for 11 years![2010/10/26 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, but it never was “ours.” We just play in it[2010/10/26 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it is your IP rights.[2010/10/26 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: was it ever? Presumably it was once believed to be, or else that old slogan would never have been used in the first place.[2010/10/26 15:58]  Lem Skall: Ata, true, but we had enough to FEEL it was ours[2010/10/26 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: You have to give the Lindens a lot of credit though for creating this new technology and clearning hurdle after hurdle of technical problems to get us to where we are today. Don’t underestimate how complicated this all is…..[2010/10/26 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, my point is we still do; of course i’m only a little over a yer old, so i came in as the new regs were in effect[2010/10/26 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww Scarp. Thanks for reminding us, you’re soooooo right[2010/10/26 15:58]  Lem Skall: we had at least hopes and dreams and they were not our fault[2010/10/26 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow Rhi; I thouhght you were around for half a decade at least :D[2010/10/26 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: AH, so…interface value? On the surface it seemed like this was our world, but that was not the whole truth.[2010/10/26 15:59]  Lem Skall: Rhi, for many the attraction was exactly that it was a new world that WE were building, it’s not that way anymore[2010/10/26 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, thanks i think[2010/10/26 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was meant as a compliment![2010/10/26 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Extie, good example![2010/10/26 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, well a lot of that is taht it is already built by other[2010/10/26 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: *others[2010/10/26 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: who builds it now, then?[2010/10/26 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: thanks Gwyn[2010/10/26 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We thought it was “our world”…. but it wasn’t :)[2010/10/26 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We just lease it ;)[2010/10/26 16:00]  Scarp Godenot: I still build my world here…… sigh[2010/10/26 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I think that the whole “world” thing was redefined.[2010/10/26 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL had just the prims in mind,[2010/10/26 16:00]  Jacek Shuftan: Can you define ‘our world”? and ‘leased world”? what is teh diffrence?[2010/10/26 16:00]  Lem Skall: Extie, it’s not the individual buildings that matter but the essence of the world and that is now more and more controlled by ll, it’s not what we make of it but what direction LL is giving it[2010/10/26 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: people like Lem (and very correctly so!) were thinking more about “the place we live in”[2010/10/26 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: I definitely PAY for my world…. ha ha ha 195 US dollars a month![2010/10/26 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp, every item I buy or am given is made by a resident like yourself. I never receive anything from a ‘corporation’ or other commercial entity. So I do not see where Lem is coming from, really.[2010/10/26 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Lem. It’s the whole augmentist vs. immersionist discussion again.[2010/10/26 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For an augmentist, “our world” is just a bunch of prims.[2010/10/26 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, yeah, i’m not sure either.[2010/10/26 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that’s what LL had in mind.[2010/10/26 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Augmentist vs immersionist?[2010/10/26 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*[2010/10/26 16:02]  Ataraxia Azemus: Well, Jacek, imagine you built a really gorgeous building that took weeks and weeks to finish and then the Inventory Monster ate it all up, so you run crying to Guvnor Linden’s house and he gives you a glass of lemonaide and says, “Yeah, it does that.” and goes back inside.[2010/10/26 16:02]  Ataraxia Azemus: That’s sort of the sting of not owning your world.[2010/10/26 16:02]  Lem Skall: I think that LL also had immersionism in mind initally, all that with “I’m building a nation” and with Burning Man[2010/10/26 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I’m not familiar with this distinction[2010/10/26 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Is that what happened to Gibson, Ataraxia?[2010/10/26 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me send you a link, Rhi… so long as it loads[2010/10/26 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What, Gibson is gone?![2010/10/26 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: omg[2010/10/26 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh jsut tell me, Gwyn[2010/10/26 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: The sim is still there, it just doesn’t have anything interesting on it anymore. Hasn’t for a long time.[2010/10/26 16:03]  Jacek Shuftan: whatever LL has in mind, it is not so important – they have to adjust their vision to avatars, if they do not to lose them ( and their money)[2010/10/26 16:03]  Lem Skall: Whi, too much to explain here[2010/10/26 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: In a nutshell the belief that in SL is a continuation of RL and your avvie should be as true to your RL self as possible, versus viewing SL as a world in itself where the point is to be everything you can NOT be (in an idealised way) in RL: Augmentationism V immersionism.[2010/10/26 16:03]  Ataraxia Azemus: Probably the Asset Monster again :T[2010/10/26 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Jacek, yes, this is as capitalitic as it gets; the responsiveness is there due to market forces[2010/10/26 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Atari: I can lose data on MY computer if I’m not careful and don’t make backups, not really Linden’s fault :)[2010/10/26 16:03]  Lem Skall: Jacek, wrong, LL is not following the users, we are following LL[2010/10/26 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: BTW, i suggest to all those here that they box up their most important things they have made and put them in a couple of opensim worlds somewhere just for safety’s sake. Many of my artist friends are doing just that as I am planning to do as well.[2010/10/26 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi_ http://slcreativity.org/wiki/index.php?title=Augmentation_vs_Immersion%5B2010/10/26 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, i see, thanks, Extropia[2010/10/26 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve known a lot of cool places in SL that don’t exist anymore. . . Most of them gone due to the sim costs.[2010/10/26 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I just defined it, Gwyn..[2010/10/26 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, indeedy[2010/10/26 16:04]  Ataraxia Azemus: But you CAN make backups, Ivy. With SL it’s a little trickier.[2010/10/26 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zobi: that’s business though – you can’t keep up, you go down, that’s the natural way of things :)[2010/10/26 16:05]  Ataraxia Azemus: There’s what Scarp suggested, but that’s not really obvious or…ideal.[2010/10/26 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i guess i’m a little of both then. My avi is close to my rl self, at least it is now, and in the one place where i’m banned that i am allowed to go as an alt, i chose an avatar that is identical to this one, but with different hair, makeup and accessories[2010/10/26 16:05]  Jacek Shuftan: do you think that LL wanst to commit sucide fighting with users to press their vision?[2010/10/26 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But i have explored things i couldn’t be here[2010/10/26 16:05]  Lem Skall: Rhi, but with clothes on? ;P[2010/10/26 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (most people are both, Rhi; that was mostly the point of Henrik Bennetsen academic studies)[2010/10/26 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Rhi, hardly anyone is 100% Aug or 100% Im. Most od us fall somewhere between the two.[2010/10/26 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jacek, LL is unfathomable really[2010/10/26 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They behave as if they’re committing suicide every week…. since at least early 2006[2010/10/26 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, so far, they’ve failed to commit suicide :)[2010/10/26 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So perhaps they are not that bad as we think lol[2010/10/26 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: LL is company, not borg, it doesn’t have conciousness of it’s own, and as with all rather big companies, managing mistakes happen[2010/10/26 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, most of my life i’ve worked without clothes on; i’ve just taken my first job where i have to have them on[2010/10/26 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I would say I am…90% immersionist 10% Augmentationist.[2010/10/26 16:07]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I’m about 50-50, i think[2010/10/26 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy, LL is a company where sometimes management mistakes do NOT happen. Nevertheless, they’re still profitable![2010/10/26 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: Zobeid mentions the loss of some of our best SL sims due to no commercial model to support them. I think this will be less of a problem in the future when these sims can be rezzed at places with much lower costs. That beats them being destroyed forever by a long shot.[2010/10/26 16:07]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i’d have to think about it[2010/10/26 16:07]  Jacek Shuftan: right, bit not because they are against users and have evil thoughts to take our possesions, they just make mistakes all the time Gwyn[2010/10/26 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me wonders about Rhi’s job![2010/10/26 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: if they are profitable, they are doing SOMETHING right, don’t you think? ;)[2010/10/26 16:08]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, i was an exotic dancer until about six weeks ago; now i’m a part time writing and math instructor[2010/10/26 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s what’s amazing, Ivy![2010/10/26 16:08]  Lem Skall: yeah, they are still profitable after lay offs[2010/10/26 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You see, it’s not fashionable to be profitable in Silicon Valley[2010/10/26 16:08]  Ataraxia Azemus: Especially since sims with no commercial model to support them tend to be the most interesting :p[2010/10/26 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh wow, Rhi 🙂 Now THAT’s a career change![2010/10/26 16:08]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Atari, and the ones with a commercial model, like philosophy island, often involve a lot of repression ot keep them profitable[2010/10/26 16:08]  Lem Skall: Rhi, same customers?[2010/10/26 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha[2010/10/26 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: LOL[2010/10/26 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, sometimes~[2010/10/26 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol :-)[2010/10/26 16:09]  Scarp Godenot: A Key thing that we are understanding about virtual worlds is their temporary nature. It is hard for us to understand that a world can disappear. But it is something we need to get used to.[2010/10/26 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, yeah, i’ve always wanted to be a teacher though, and i won’t be able to always make a living off my boobs[2010/10/26 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gravity, you know[2010/10/26 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Real worlds are temporary too ;)[2010/10/26 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl Rhi 🙂 :)[2010/10/26 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There’s surgery, Rhi, remember lovely surgery…[2010/10/26 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Except here in sl[2010/10/26 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: temporary too, but the time span of change in SL is way way shorter[2010/10/26 16:10]  Ataraxia Azemus: Everything changes. Small things just move faster :)[2010/10/26 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: As a wise being once said ‘train yourself to let go of all you fear to lose, you must’.[2010/10/26 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right![2010/10/26 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, i’ve thought of it–breast reduction surgery[2010/10/26 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: which is a good thing :)[2010/10/26 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is change everywhere, Ivy :)[2010/10/26 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, Gwyn all of life is temporary, but in VR, this is speeded up considerable.[2010/10/26 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: but no[2010/10/26 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: considerably[2010/10/26 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh I disagree, Scarp. The difference is that we pay attention to it closely![2010/10/26 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, yeah, time here is distorted; a week is lot months, a month is like years, and a year is well like 5 years, right Gwyn[2010/10/26 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s more intense, because we pay more attention to it.[2010/10/26 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: not really[2010/10/26 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s more intense, because it’s easier[2010/10/26 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: its more intense cuz our emotions seem to have greater rein here[2010/10/26 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I mean for the ones that DO pay attention.[2010/10/26 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: you don’t change your furniture in your home often, because it’s a problem[2010/10/26 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: I dunno. . . I’ve been here, let’s see. . . 6 years, 4 months. . . It doesn’t seem like that long.[2010/10/26 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: Here is what I mean by speeded up: You build a city in a month. It is enjoyed for a short period and then it is gone. Not true in non virtual world.[2010/10/26 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, i wasn’t paying attention, what do you mean?[2010/10/26 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That too, yes, Rhi …— but I think both are related[2010/10/26 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: here, it takes you minutes and you don’t have to pay a companty for transport[2010/10/26 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: no physical activity required either[2010/10/26 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: excpept for few clicks[2010/10/26 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: :)[2010/10/26 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: except*[2010/10/26 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A lot of “cities” are built in even less than a month and are gone after a short period; they’re called ‘circuses’ ;)[2010/10/26 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: My primary’s fingers get plenty of exercise![2010/10/26 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But ok[2010/10/26 16:12]  Ataraxia Azemus: And because it suits our needs. Or someone’s needs. When the interest or the means to keep something up fades….poof![2010/10/26 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: So Gwyn, are you saying that SL is a circus? ha ha h[2010/10/26 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But its not just that–ppl change their whole attitudes toward you in a few weeks[2010/10/26 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I won’t be stubborn about “more change in virtual worlds” vs. “less change in physical worlds” because, well, the question simply doesn’t make any sense to me :)[2010/10/26 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: right on! :)[2010/10/26 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: It is run by a bunch of clowns, Scarp;)[2010/10/26 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, its the biggest show on earth[2010/10/26 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly![2010/10/26 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha[2010/10/26 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so appropriate[2010/10/26 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: HA ha Extie! so true….. heh[2010/10/26 16:13]  Lem Skall: but just because thay are so ephemereal, the cities in SL are not real cirties[2010/10/26 16:13]  Lem Skall: cities[2010/10/26 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are… because they have real inhabitants :)[2010/10/26 16:14]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, no, in SL I don’t even have a home[2010/10/26 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they have …. civilisation…. the sense of “living in cities”[2010/10/26 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: I do![2010/10/26 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: You could, though.[2010/10/26 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, I have to agree with GWyn. If have ever visited Caledon you know how much a community can be real.[2010/10/26 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well perhaps “inhabitants” is a bad word[2010/10/26 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: and it’s a freaking space ship, beat that![2010/10/26 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me grins[2010/10/26 16:14]  Jacek Shuftan: /me looks back into past and sees that there are no parcels taht he put his first steps – Isnt it degradaing for our psycho that we have no past but memories and snapshots?[2010/10/26 16:14]  Lem Skall: I could but I don’t and I don’t need to[2010/10/26 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Communities are real if they have human beings in them ;)[2010/10/26 16:15]  Ataraxia Azemus: Gwyn, that’s true! Most places in SL *are* circuses and fairs :)[2010/10/26 16:15]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, yes, relationships are real here, so communities are real[2010/10/26 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And what are memories and snapshots, Jacek? :)[2010/10/26 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: AH. But in RL a home is much more of a necessity, is that your point, Lem?[2010/10/26 16:15]  Jacek Shuftan: I can not sit on my snapshot, Gwyn:([2010/10/26 16:15]  Lem Skall: in RL it’s an absolute expectation[2010/10/26 16:15]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I’m thinking of giving a discussion on communities–as the philosophy one seems to be a roving band that goes from certain sims to others, and one sim in particular tries to make them its community, and is failing[2010/10/26 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you can in SL, Jacek![2010/10/26 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi… I should bring one of my teachers to that discussion,[2010/10/26 16:16]  Jacek Shuftan: it wont be the same prim[2010/10/26 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: he has a PhD in online communities[2010/10/26 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, yes, do so, please[2010/10/26 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: he’d tell you wjat you’re doing wrong 🙂 (but you would disagree; I did!)[2010/10/26 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, oh, wow[2010/10/26 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, then he definitely should[2010/10/26 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: But I would imagine having a home in Sl gives you more of a sense of ‘belonging’ but maybe I am wrong?[2010/10/26 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, it does make you feel like you belong[2010/10/26 16:17]  Lem Skall: so I would have a home if I needed to belong[2010/10/26 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: When one sim owner booted me out of my “home” there and i went back to Eternal desires, where I had a house the sim admin had built for me, it was like coming home[2010/10/26 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me has several homes because of that ;)[2010/10/26 16:17]  Lem Skall: but I don’t need to belong and hence I don’t need a home[2010/10/26 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Well maybe you prove that it is not necessary after all, Lem?[2010/10/26 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: “Home is where, when you hve to go there, they *want* to take you in.”[2010/10/26 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And yes, i deliberately changed the word[2010/10/26 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just miss my first home in SL…. I should never had sold it :([2010/10/26 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: those are actually “safe houses”[2010/10/26 16:17]  Ataraxia Azemus: Okay, I’m getting laggy and I have a mountain of work to scale, anyway…[2010/10/26 16:17]  Ataraxia Azemus: Be well, guys :)[2010/10/26 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Atari, oh, be taht way[2010/10/26 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Atari[2010/10/26 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: bye, Atari![2010/10/26 16:18]  Luisa Bourgoin: ..where you store travel passports, money, ammunition an an alt account :D[2010/10/26 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Take care, Atari![2010/10/26 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Luisa ;)[2010/10/26 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Luisa, oh, yeah, you’d better believe that.[2010/10/26 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: The sim that bans me but allows me in as an alt is part of the philosophy community; and that is one of the reasons why the sim admin lets me in, as it would be offensive to the community to not allow me, so he bans and does not ban me at the same time.[2010/10/26 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And the peops in the community are greatly relieved that i go as an identical avatar[2010/10/26 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Your social identity attaches to your avatar in Sl communities[2010/10/26 16:19]  Lem Skall: Rhi, I don’t get it[2010/10/26 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: Having a sl home feels somewhat ‘real’ because it contains your choices and can be considered somewhat nostalgic. A SL home is somewhat comforting in some ways. But it is certainly not necessary…..[2010/10/26 16:19]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, no one does; i’m not even sure he does[2010/10/26 16:20]  Lem Skall: why are you banned with one char and not banned with the other?[2010/10/26 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, for me, having a SL home is like having a Facebook account: a place to put something of yourself into a virtual world[2010/10/26 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, i think i know, but it involves at opic in its own right–the difference betweenparatars, primaries and alts[2010/10/26 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: I haven’t had a SL home in a while, but I do miss that a bit.[2010/10/26 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: Oh Lem. I didn’t get it either, UNTIL I started using an alt avatar regularly. My two primary avatars have completely separate identities. This surprised me seeing as how I’m not necessarily an immersionist.[2010/10/26 16:21]  Lem Skall: ok, I’ll limit my question to why does he ban one of your chars?[2010/10/26 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scrp, yes, but here’s the kicker, the two avi’s are identical, test identically, are perceived by everyone as the same[2010/10/26 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So its not a case like your presenting[2010/10/26 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: OO is someone talking about avatar identity?[2010/10/26 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: I never heard why Rhi was banned in the first place, I figured it was just a case of somebody developing a grudge against her. I’ve seen that happen before.[2010/10/26 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, i have a notecard, as a lot of ppl have asked me that[2010/10/26 16:22]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, i’ll give you both my notecard[2010/10/26 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually it happened to me before. . . just not in SL.[2010/10/26 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: Rhiannon, what you way is only true when people you interact with know both avatars as run by the same primary.[2010/10/26 16:23]  Static Melody: having a home in SL makes you a slave of a system in some way[2010/10/26 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Static! because you pay tier? :)[2010/10/26 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So is the tier system Evil? :)[2010/10/26 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, true enough[2010/10/26 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: As well as ‘alts’ do not forget the ‘pairson’ aka an individual in SL who is two or more people in RL:)[2010/10/26 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the sense that what LL *really* meant was, “Your World, your imagination, our tier”?[2010/10/26 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And even so, my alt has an emerging difference in personality[2010/10/26 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: Static. The slave part is only because of the rent. Otherwise it is quite freeing in terms of your ability to control your environment.[2010/10/26 16:24]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And a lot of ppl aren’t sure sh’es me, although she looks and texts like me[2010/10/26 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: I had a real dream home, an island paradise. . . But I forgot to pay the hefty rent for a couple of days, then logged in and found somebody else had taken it. :([2010/10/26 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :([2010/10/26 16:24]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I’m thinking of a discussion on the psychology of alts too[2010/10/26 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes :)[2010/10/26 16:24]  Jacek Shuftan: Maybe SIm owners was totaaly immersed and treated Rhia and her alt as separated beings? even knowing that the same person moves the mouse in front of monitor[2010/10/26 16:24]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Zobeid, oh that’s hjorrible[2010/10/26 16:24]  Static Melody: no, not because of a tier, because of the ownership, you don’t want to lose it, or don’t want to lose items, at least in some time frame[2010/10/26 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a LOT of wholly misinterpreted academic trash out there about avatars, identity, and alts…[2010/10/26 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*[2010/10/26 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Jacek, according to one person who knows this guy, that is true[2010/10/26 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And the Senator who ejected me for personal reasons at Philosophy Island? Don’t know if he knows, but he likes my alt[2010/10/26 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Meh. . . It was frustrating, but it also made me take a look at how little value I was getting out of the island paradise. It’s not like I was having lots of people over there all the time.[2010/10/26 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me blames dualism[2010/10/26 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: time for me to go![2010/10/26 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: I just finished an epic essay on alts, split into 14 odd installments. Took me months to complete and now I am just happy not to have to think about the whole topic anymore:)[2010/10/26 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie — what will come next? ;)[2010/10/26 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Religion.[2010/10/26 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: You should have asked me for help with that Extie, I went through a whole phase of alt obsession on the MUCKs long before I got onto SL even. :)[2010/10/26 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Oh please God, only not Religion[2010/10/26 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Ivy[2010/10/26 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and yay Extie![2010/10/26 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: The psychology of arts would make for an interesting topic for sure Rhiannon. It is interesting how much identity is determined by your choices of dress, home etc. This is why two avatars run by the same person can diverge. Not to mention the personal interactions which are different with each avatar……[2010/10/26 16:26]  Lem Skall: yay! religion![2010/10/26 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, absolutely[2010/10/26 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: and we’ll talk about that when i give the discussion[2010/10/26 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that thought, identity being, after all, conditioned by dress. So the habit DOES make the nun?[2010/10/26 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But i have to be going now[2010/10/26 16:27]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, ask Rhi[2010/10/26 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m no disagreeing, mind you[2010/10/26 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, to a large extent[2010/10/26 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem — I knew, I just knew, you would say THAT![2010/10/26 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahaha[2010/10/26 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yep, that’s going to be one of my next topics![2010/10/26 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡[2010/10/26 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: see you all later![2010/10/26 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye Rhi :_)))[2010/10/26 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Rhi[2010/10/26 16:28]  Lem Skall: cya Rhi[2010/10/26 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: bye gwyn[2010/10/26 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: byes Ivy[2010/10/26 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Aww bye Rhi![2010/10/26 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: cya Lem[2010/10/26 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, yeah, got to go[2010/10/26 16:28]  Jacek Shuftan: was nice to meet Rhia[2010/10/26 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: send me to group invite and you essay on alts, please[2010/10/26 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: nice meeting you, Jacek[2010/10/26 16:29]  Luisa Bourgoin: hopefully group limit raise comes timely[2010/10/26 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: It is fascinating how a new person will come into SL and then make choices about their avatar that become ‘THEM’ and remain unchangeable characteristics that define them.[2010/10/26 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i tell you what, i’ll come next time as my alt, and see if you spot her[2010/10/26 16:29]  Lem Skall: is the group limit up already?[2010/10/26 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m guilty as charged, Scarp!![2010/10/26 16:29]  Lem Skall: Rhi, I’ll recognize the glasses[2010/10/26 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, no glasses[2010/10/26 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oops, now you will know her[2010/10/26 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha[2010/10/26 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: Think of the most recognizeable avatars you know. They have decided to make firm visual personalities.[2010/10/26 16:30]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me waves and poofs[2010/10/26 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, I for sure won’t spot you, Rhi; I’m terrible at that[2010/10/26 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s true, Scarp![2010/10/26 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very true![2010/10/26 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve had trouble with that before, Scarp.[2010/10/26 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: I like experimenting too much.[2010/10/26 16:30]  Lem Skall: we’ll have a contest: spot Rhi[2010/10/26 16:30]  Jacek Shuftan: the group limit chanhe is going to be temporal, asI thought?[2010/10/26 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me coughs[2010/10/26 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, I can picture most of you here in my mind[2010/10/26 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: Like I ALWAYS wear taped horn rimmed glasses and have long messy hair. This is part of my Scarpyness.[2010/10/26 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because of that “visual personality”[2010/10/26 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: But *then* I worry about what my friends will think. . .[2010/10/26 16:30]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, i was joking, she’s idenLem, absolutely; they did that at PI once when I was banned[2010/10/26 16:30]  Lem Skall: so, were we ever ON topic today?[2010/10/26 16:30]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me winks and poofs[2010/10/26 16:31]  Luisa Bourgoin: I believe Rhi can catch my attention. She’s using tricks![2010/10/26 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: In general, the more different your avatar LOOKS (in an idealized way) the happier you are. In contrast, the more different your SL personality is (generally speaking) the LESS content you are. Mostly, after a bit of identity exploration the RL personality becomes dominant.[2010/10/26 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s an interesting thought, Extie. . .[2010/10/26 16:31]  Scarp Godenot: Interesting ideas there Extie[2010/10/26 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a good idea, Extie, although there are exceptions — lots of exceptions — at either extreme.[2010/10/26 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: does it, or does the avatar has it’s influence on our personalities?[2010/10/26 16:32]  Lem Skall: Extie, is that true in your case?[2010/10/26 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But perhaps it’s true on average.[2010/10/26 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: If you avatar happens to be a stern transhumanist BITCH who forces her own identity and keeps the primary toeing the line, that is![2010/10/26 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh![2010/10/26 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean,,,then that is not so true.[2010/10/26 16:32]  Jacek Shuftan: how would you explain my case? The first tie i bought in SL, that the rl one followed the pixel one[2010/10/26 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: oh yes! 1st time experiences … RL personality freaking out utterly[2010/10/26 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: I remember some good presentations we had from the avatar identity research group, back when it was active.[2010/10/26 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I did say ‘in general’. I do not mean this is always the case.[2010/10/26 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, after being in SL, I completely lost track of what is a “RL personality”[2010/10/26 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wish I had attended them, Zo[2010/10/26 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK! Well my time is up.[2010/10/26 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww. We do still get a poem, right?[2010/10/26 16:34]  Zobeid Zuma: For example, they found that women were more likely to create avs as idealized versions of themselves, whereas men usually tried to make their avs attention-grabbing.[2010/10/26 16:34]  Lem Skall: Extie, out of curiosity, have you ever seen the first episode of Caprica? There are some interesting ideas about personality uploading and virtual worlds[2010/10/26 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh that’s interesting, Zo![2010/10/26 16:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, my problem is that I only meet the edge cases![2010/10/26 16:35]  Lem Skall: so, do I grab your attention?[2010/10/26 16:35]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK..The clocks go back or forward and as regulars know, I will not be holding a discussion until SL time is back where it ‘should’ be. So…no thinkers next week but we are back in two week’s time![2010/10/26 16:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie

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