Thinkers Oct 19 2010: Domestic Violence and Sexism

Arisia Vita and Extropia DaSilva at Thinkers

[2010/10/19 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers![2010/10/19 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gang up on him![2010/10/19 15:32]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me laughs[2010/10/19 15:32]  Rhiannon Dragoone: They’re frightened of my boobies, Ex[2010/10/19 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, it took a while. . . Several parts of my av didn’t want to rez. :/[2010/10/19 15:32]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Zobeid; i didn’t know they were so formal here[2010/10/19 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Today’s topic concerns possible sexism in domestic violence. At least with concerns to how it is covered in the news and current affairs programs…[2010/10/19 15:33]  Arisia Vita: I am surrounded by friends, I am safe….[2010/10/19 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Whenever the media discusses domestic violence, women are always the victims, never the perpetrator. Is it sexist to ignore male victims of domestic abuse or are men who suffer abuse such a minority that they can be discounted?[2010/10/19 15:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: you featured a really nice furry last week[2010/10/19 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s the one. . .[2010/10/19 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I remember a report from a female investigative journalist..[2010/10/19 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: And now I appear to be at the bottom of the sea.[2010/10/19 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Been a while since I saw that bug.[2010/10/19 15:33]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I always seem to rez on furniture lately; several table tops; it made me wonder[2010/10/19 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Which, unfortunately, I cannnot find…[2010/10/19 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: There, now I’m back. :)[2010/10/19 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)[2010/10/19 15:34]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, well, we won’t hold you to scholarly details[2010/10/19 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: But she rang up a women’s refuge to report a case of domenstic violence…[2010/10/19 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: BUt the twist was…[2010/10/19 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: She claimed to have been violent to her husband…[2010/10/19 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: The refuge’s response was..[2010/10/19 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, he must have deseved it.[2010/10/19 15:35]  Rhiannon Dragoone: omg! An exact parallel[2010/10/19 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: It seems to me..[2010/10/19 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Burn 2 Report: With the exception of a few decent artists that managed to get stuff in there, very average in general. I think they are trying too hard to recreated the Burning Man desert Just my opinion.[2010/10/19 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: The attitude is, violence inflicted on women by men is never justified under any circunstances, but when women abuse men that can be justified..[2010/10/19 15:36]  Luisa Bourgoin: still going on, up until end of week. Art, at least this year one gets a chance seeing all exhibits[2010/10/19 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s not our topic tonight, is it? :/[2010/10/19 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe[2010/10/19 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: ANyway…anough of my waffling…is it right that DV is seen as exclusively men harming women?[2010/10/19 15:37]  Luisa Bourgoin: how about collecting justifications for violence, first?[2010/10/19 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I only wonder how many men actually would be willing to report that they have been abused by their wifes[2010/10/19 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: And would they be believed?[2010/10/19 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note that I live in a tendentially conservative and machist society here :)[2010/10/19 15:37]  Rhiannon Dragoone: its pretty shameful, i should think[2010/10/19 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *tencencially grr[2010/10/19 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: gah1[2010/10/19 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And have automatic typos turned on… lol[2010/10/19 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: Our cultural stereotypes are: Men are violent and women are submissive. When the opposite is the case, it upsets those stereotypes and we tend not to believe it.[2010/10/19 15:38]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Violence is violence though; and many men are intimadated by women, as hard as it is for us to believe[2010/10/19 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: When girls bully in school, it is more psychological than physical. If some women do likewise in the home, it would not leave obvious marks like a bruise.[2010/10/19 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I was trying to remember if *any* of my male friends iRL would *dare* to report that they had been beaten up buy their wifes/GFs[2010/10/19 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think they would have that courage, no[2010/10/19 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worse: how would they explai it to their friends and families?[2010/10/19 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Would I laugh at them if they told me something like that? Probably…[2010/10/19 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me blushes because she suddenly notices she’s not the equalitarian she proclaims to be[2010/10/19 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: When I, er, escorted for a living, i had to defend myself a few times, and the guys never turned me in to the cops[2010/10/19 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: its the whole “you’ve been beaten up by a girl,” thing[2010/10/19 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh looking at my brother’s wife, I’m sure that she could beat up any guy she met lol[2010/10/19 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Which seems to me to indicte maybe men need special protection[2010/10/19 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: except perhaps for my brother, who is even taller and stronger…[2010/10/19 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that women abusing men is not as uncommon as we’d like to believe.[2010/10/19 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s what I wonder, Art…[2010/10/19 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Statistically, it’s a rarity. But…[2010/10/19 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, generally speaking, men are stronger than women. Is that something to do with the assumption that men cannot be victims of DA?[2010/10/19 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Statistics only work on reported cases…[2010/10/19 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Swyneth, how do we trust those statitics; we just established men don’t tell[2010/10/19 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re right, Rhi[2010/10/19 15:41]  Luisa Bourgoin: abuse doesnt necessarily have to be physical violence[2010/10/19 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah.[2010/10/19 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s also correct, Luisa![2010/10/19 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, verbal abuse is even worse, really, in some ways[2010/10/19 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And on *that* scenario, well, I’m sure women can abuse men verbally as powerfully as the other way round; sometimes, even more so :)[2010/10/19 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well, I think statistically it isn’t a rarity. I remember a study that found that it was very common. I’ll see if I can find it on the Google… ha ha[2010/10/19 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *giggles*[2010/10/19 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh really, Art? Hmm[2010/10/19 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, how did they figure it out? As said, most men I know wouldn’t dare to report something like that[2010/10/19 15:43]  Luisa Bourgoin: “she abused my credit card!!11″[2010/10/19 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They might in extreme cases, say, if the wife is a lunatic and is hitting the kids too[2010/10/19 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, yeah, exactly the point i was making earlier[2010/10/19 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: I think I read that, really, men are more likely to be the victims, but it is primarily psychological abuse. Women are more likely to be harmed physically.[2010/10/19 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (oops sorry Rhi… I should have scrolled back)[2010/10/19 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would take that as granted, Extie, although I’m curious about the report Art spoke about :)[2010/10/19 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think this was a huge survey involving a few million people…. but I think the questions asked is were you ever hit by your partner. Sorry I don’t remember much more.[2010/10/19 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Its okay, Gwyneth, seems to be my day for being ignored; happened erlier at the digital ethnography discussion[2010/10/19 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-([2010/10/19 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww now I feel bad :([2010/10/19 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha,[2010/10/19 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Atari![2010/10/19 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, domestic violence perpetrated by women against kids is not so uncommon :([2010/10/19 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi guys[2010/10/19 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya Ataraxia :)[2010/10/19 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Would it be possible to talk about domestic violence without referring to gender at all? Say by using terms like ‘victim’ and ‘abuser’?[2010/10/19 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure :)[2010/10/19 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Gwyn :)[2010/10/19 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: ooops! should we talk ’bout upbringing?[2010/10/19 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m sure it would be described that way in any legal document, Extie :)[2010/10/19 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Sure, if you like Luisa[2010/10/19 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Here seems to be a good basic resource for battered men information: http://www.menweb.org/battered/%5B2010/10/19 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Boo there goes me wife.[2010/10/19 15:47]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yaaaack I’m laggy[2010/10/19 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extropia, yeah, that would gloss over some of the distinctions we’ve been making, like between psychological and physical violence[2010/10/19 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But it might eliminte some of the stereotypes that we started with; they were rampant in the first part of this convo[2010/10/19 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /nod[2010/10/19 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: why do you think that was?[2010/10/19 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: What, extropia? That we were engaged in stereotypical thinking?[2010/10/19 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Seren![2010/10/19 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes[2010/10/19 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me says hi to Seren as well :)[2010/10/19 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello darling![2010/10/19 15:49]  Luisa Bourgoin: stereotypes are just good for starters … they precede any more cognitive thinking phase[2010/10/19 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: *snuggles*[2010/10/19 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: here is a quote referencing the survery I saw earlier: “Every year, 1,510,455 women and 834,732 men are victims of physical violence by an intimate. This is according to a Nov. 2000 Department of Justice report on the National Violence Against Women Survey”[2010/10/19 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: oh god I am ruthed[2010/10/19 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, when we first started talking, we had the image of men as physical stronger; we had a partcular image of masculinity involved[2010/10/19 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: ah, there I am[2010/10/19 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow Art — way way higher than I thought!!!![2010/10/19 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: more or less[2010/10/19 15:50]  Ataraxia Azemus: That’s closer than I would have thought.[2010/10/19 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: No no you are your beautiful self my love[2010/10/19 15:50]  Serendipity Seraph: hey darling! hey all.[2010/10/19 15:50]  Luisa Bourgoin: so 66% vs. 33%[2010/10/19 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*[2010/10/19 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: You Seren, and Atara; she’s a cloud to me[2010/10/19 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, it surely goes against stereotypical perceptions :)[2010/10/19 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So does this change the way we respond to domestic violence?[2010/10/19 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: It should; we should have different counseling for men and women[2010/10/19 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree…[2010/10/19 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Just picture the girls from the TV reality show Jersey Shore and you can see the real thing! ha ha[2010/10/19 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Which means we can’t be as gender neutral as we thought[2010/10/19 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: strenght does not equate to violence though[2010/10/19 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: About masculinity, I did say that in GENERAL men are physically stronger, Of course there can be exceptions.[2010/10/19 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm, Rhi[2010/10/19 15:52]  Ataraxia Azemus: I’m unbelievably laggy…I’m lucky I’m here at all :p[2010/10/19 15:52]  Serendipity Seraph: I mean, how much strenght does it take to throw a mixing bowr? :)[2010/10/19 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, no, and i think that’s the conclusion we’re drawing from rejecting stereotyping[2010/10/19 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, well, Extie, that’s not really a stereotype, it’s just basic biology…[2010/10/19 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Ah now that IS a stereotype, the battleax of a wife wielding the rolling pin like a lethal weapon.[2010/10/19 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that strengh is not as much a factor as temperment of the victim. Some people are more passive even if they are physically stronger.[2010/10/19 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but, as mentioned before, strength does ot equate with violence…[2010/10/19 15:52]  Ataraxia Azemus: Different groups or different styles?[2010/10/19 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right, Art![2010/10/19 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extropia, well, even *that8 is stereotyping; men as a group have grater percentages of upper body strength, not over all strength[2010/10/19 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I can kick the crap out of most men[2010/10/19 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh. I shall remember that. Thanks.[2010/10/19 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But if they got me in a full nelson, i’d be in trouble[2010/10/19 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh… ok, now that’s a fine distinction 🙂 Does it mean we can on average kick harder, Rhi? :)[2010/10/19 15:53]  Serendipity Seraph: yep. a frying pan is much more effective. :)[2010/10/19 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Geyneth, no but we can kick the same[2010/10/19 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh[2010/10/19 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)[2010/10/19 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Bomnnnnnnnng![2010/10/19 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And they do give us certain distinctive targets[2010/10/19 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that’s interesting, Rhi. See, I’m learning a lot today!![2010/10/19 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: true :D[2010/10/19 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: you know, when I see RL couples in action, it is readily apparent which spouse is the dominant one usually. And in some cases the extreme dominant is the woman.[2010/10/19 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: thanks, Gwyneth[2010/10/19 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i’v heard the best couples trade off dominance; each has her or her area[2010/10/19 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh….yes dear…….yes dear…….no dear………[2010/10/19 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe I should continue my martial arts class…[2010/10/19 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha Extie![2010/10/19 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: I agree with that Rhiannon[2010/10/19 15:55]  Serendipity Seraph: sometimes who is dominant for public consumption is not the same as what is true privately[2010/10/19 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, i do have ways to get out of full nelsons that don’t require strength, so my example was flawed, but i thougght it useful[2010/10/19 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: defintely so for some BDSM couples… lol ;)[2010/10/19 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: We there the one who is dominant in the marriage often is the one who is submissive in the role playing[2010/10/19 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: I notice from that battered man site that it says that woman equal the power difference by being more likely to use weapons.[2010/10/19 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I’ve heard, Rhi :)[2010/10/19 15:56]  Serendipity Seraph: but basically I wouldn’t put up with a spouse that tried intimidation by violence. a violent outburst when very frustrated is one thing. a pattern of violence. no things. Whether the partner is male or female makes no difference.[2010/10/19 15:56]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Art, well to paraphrase tht 19th century saying, “God may have created men and women, but it was Sam Colt who made them equal.”[2010/10/19 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear, Seren[2010/10/19 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha ha Rhiannon![2010/10/19 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh that’s a nice one, Rhi — lol[2010/10/19 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I never heard that before, but it’s great advertising![2010/10/19 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: hard to win an argument with a gun. end one, yes. win, no.[2010/10/19 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeppers; if the ERA had passe, the right to keep and bear arms would have been in its penumbras; and i can just see the scowl on Scolia’s face as he pointes that out[2010/10/19 15:58]  Ataraxia Azemus: The best couples eschew dominance :)[2010/10/19 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Seren. But in many cases the physical violence comes after a long period of psychological abuse that reduces self-confidence and brainwashes the victim into believing s/he cannot do without the partner.[2010/10/19 15:58]  Ataraxia Azemus: Okay, it’s taking several minutes for anything I say to appear so…be good everyone :)[2010/10/19 15:58]  Serendipity Seraph: what about butch femme and its straight variants? what about power exchange? many flavors of dominance that are not pathological[2010/10/19 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: tc Atara[2010/10/19 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: try relogging Atara[2010/10/19 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, you can do it, Atar![2010/10/19 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL is a bit odd today….[2010/10/19 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Today!? When is it ever NOT odd?[2010/10/19 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i was just going to say, Ex[2010/10/19 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Odder than usual :)[2010/10/19 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me wonders if we should have an oddity scale for SL[2010/10/19 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Warning, we’re at Oddity Level 5, take care”[2010/10/19 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Hahaha/….”SL acting normal today…how odd!”[2010/10/19 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: So if it is always odd, then it isn’t odd? Interesting logical paradox. haha[2010/10/19 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: omg[2010/10/19 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: true! gah[2010/10/19 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Bowie did a song about space oddity.[2010/10/19 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Very yin yang on the odd paradox[2010/10/19 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m sure he deserved some domestic violence afterwards ;)[2010/10/19 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, just trying to get us back on track lol[2010/10/19 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha[2010/10/19 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: :)[2010/10/19 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: What about foreign violence?[2010/10/19 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, BDSM and dominance/submission is not exactly the same as domestic violence[2010/10/19 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What does that mean? Violence from outside the family?[2010/10/19 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (right, Rhi!)[2010/10/19 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: The very concept of violence means its victim didn’t ask for it, or want it[2010/10/19 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*[2010/10/19 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: Can you abuse a Virtual Worlder in another country?[2010/10/19 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: yeah. what is next if the domestic violence subject lays an egg?[2010/10/19 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *scratches head*[2010/10/19 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Well one example of a clash of cultures is arranged marriages.[2010/10/19 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Art, of course you can but it would be verbal or emotional abuse[2010/10/19 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Or, worse example, honor killings.[2010/10/19 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do go on, Extie…[2010/10/19 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Computer abuse![2010/10/19 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Forced circumcision[2010/10/19 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do you think arranged marriages lead to domestic violence, Extie?[2010/10/19 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Statistics tend to say otherwise…[2010/10/19 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, it would be interesting to see the stats on that[2010/10/19 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Arranged marriages aren’t just that; there are a lot of expectations in them, and that could reduce violence[2010/10/19 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The theory behind arranged marriages is that late teens usually don’t know what’s best for each other… but their parents do ;)[2010/10/19 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, another one. I should point out that female circumsicion is not like a friz (that is the technical term for male circumsizion) It is more like what happened to Bobbit.[2010/10/19 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m betting that any cultural more that changes the power between men and women leads to some form of abuse.[2010/10/19 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Power inequality leads to abuse[2010/10/19 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, one of the most peaceful countries in the world is India, which has one of the strongest traditions in arranged marriage…. (note that this doesn’t mean there isn’t any violence in India; of course there is!)[2010/10/19 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a political statement, Rhi![2010/10/19 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, a very true one.[2010/10/19 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: not so sure about power inequality -> abuse I see it can make it more likely but not direct implication[2010/10/19 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, even slight power inequalities; although then the abuse might be slight[2010/10/19 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: The Indian women I’ve met are very powerful and seem to be the family boss.[2010/10/19 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s just plain wisdom, Art ;)[2010/10/19 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe[2010/10/19 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, back to *someone’s observation about Ferengi women, made pointedly to me; i recall that Quark was terrified of his mother[2010/10/19 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: But we tend to only meet the elite Indian classes here in the west…..[2010/10/19 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my country, due to strong Arab influence in medieval times, the southern part of the country is mostly matriarchal: women hold property and deal with household finances; guys just go out and farm, hunt, or fish, These days, well, they just get drunk :)[2010/10/19 16:07]  Rhiannon Dragoone: lol, Gwyneth[2010/10/19 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s interesting to see that the north is strongly patriarchal though.[2010/10/19 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: old patriarchial memes of women running household and home life meant often that in that domain the woman was dominant. many a husband came home to a power reversal[2010/10/19 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My grandmother, although generally considered a ‘modern’ woman, would never dream to leave her house, except for going to church. It was just not proper.[2010/10/19 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: Is the patriarchy in N. Portugal due to Catholic Influences do you think Gwyn?[2010/10/19 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the north is far more Catholic than the south, yes[2010/10/19 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The south is pretty much agnostic :)[2010/10/19 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, that was actually my point about the Frengi culture; domestically, the women were obviously very powerful even though in a sexist culture[2010/10/19 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: That’s based on these real life examples; the Gypsies had a trad, for instance, of women being powerful in the ome[2010/10/19 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: *homne[2010/10/19 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: *home[2010/10/19 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: grrr[2010/10/19 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Bonobos have a matriarchal society. Woe betide the male who steps out of line, for the girls will pin him down so alpha female can inflict a painful bite on his balls:([2010/10/19 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, Ex, i hope they put ketchup on him before they bite[2010/10/19 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh. That depends a lot, Rhi. Around here, Gypsy women are expected to be submissive and fully dedicated to their husbands when they marry, and encouraged to marry as soon a sthey’re of age; young males are traditionally brought up as princes (that’s the word used for their education)[2010/10/19 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I am talking about a species of ape, btw, not a human society.[2010/10/19 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hold it. The Frengi? Is that where the idea of the Star Trek Firengi comes from? They were a male only dominat culture….. heh[2010/10/19 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: never heard of them in Star Trek. Is that TNG?[2010/10/19 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: No, they weren’t male only; at least by Deep Spae Nine; Quark was always terrified of his mother, and then she paid him a visit…[2010/10/19 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: TNG, Deep Space 9; Voyager, even Enterprise[2010/10/19 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Ohhh Deep Space Nine. Puh, anything without James T Kirk is not propper Trek![2010/10/19 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol[2010/10/19 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: There were mishapped dwarfs who had profit as their sole moralty and their women had to be naked[2010/10/19 16:12]  Serendipity Seraph: *laughs* lesbian household I was part of for some years was called “House of Bonobos”[2010/10/19 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: All trek is good trek[2010/10/19 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, omg![2010/10/19 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worse than a Trekkie is a fundamentalistic traditional Trekkie ;)[2010/10/19 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: No biting me on Friday![2010/10/19 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Seren — I’m sure that was fun ;)[2010/10/19 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Right on Gwyn! ha ha[2010/10/19 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: yep. confusing at times. too much drama often. but mostly fun[2010/10/19 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: We will always be around Gwyn. We live long. And prosper.[2010/10/19 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “mostly fun” is good :)[2010/10/19 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl Extie[2010/10/19 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: appropriate ;)[2010/10/19 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Wouldn’t that be sunday, Ex, “Cuz that’s my day of rest?”[2010/10/19 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps it’s Fridays for Extie ;)[2010/10/19 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: I knew Extie was a Vulcan![2010/10/19 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *now* it all makes sense![2010/10/19 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *slaps her forehead*[2010/10/19 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: doh![2010/10/19 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: It is logical that you should think so.[2010/10/19 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha[2010/10/19 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: fascinating![2010/10/19 16:14]  Luisa Bourgoin: would love to put “proper Trekism” on next toppic…[2010/10/19 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *chuckles*[2010/10/19 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Nooo we will be overrun…by Tribbles![2010/10/19 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what are “tribbles”??[2010/10/19 16:15]  Serendipity Seraph: tribbles and bits[2010/10/19 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: Next weeks question: Which Star Trek Character(s) do you most identify with and why?[2010/10/19 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: OH, you remember? That old episode when Enterprise is overrun with cute furry little animals? spherical lumps of fluff?[2010/10/19 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: I am most like Counselor Troy. you know.[2010/10/19 16:16]  Luisa Bourgoin: we can rez here :D[2010/10/19 16:16]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I thouight everyone knew about tribbles[2010/10/19 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: at different times: spock, nurse in star trex 1, captain janeway, 7 of 9[2010/10/19 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, I’m dressed for a Betazoid wedding[2010/10/19 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: The Trouble With Tribbles[2010/10/19 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So there, whoever thought I was a Ferengi[2010/10/19 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I Lucid![2010/10/19 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Me…Probably Commander Data. Although, I would not be wishing I was human. I would show off my superior brain ‘hah! I can recall a billion facts, puny human!'[2010/10/19 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: yeah. the one big flaw in data was wanting to be human[2010/10/19 16:18]  Luisa Bourgoin: doh! I will have troubles dressing up Klingon style…[2010/10/19 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Right. Be like a human wishing she was an ape.[2010/10/19 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i always liked Ensign Rho[2010/10/19 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: Data occupied the Spock niche in Next Generation[2010/10/19 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: sometimes identified with the Borg Queen. :)[2010/10/19 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: Didn’t ensign Rho get killed?[2010/10/19 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha[2010/10/19 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: I know! I want to be the poor guy in a red jersey who you just know is gonna die before the opening credits role:)[2010/10/19 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Seren is Scary![2010/10/19 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me would be just a redshirt too[2010/10/19 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirt_(character)%5B2010/10/19 16:19]  Serendipity Seraph: “we will add your perfection to our own” “resistance IS futile”[2010/10/19 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: protest against violence to redshirts![2010/10/19 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well can I assume we have said all we want to say about the actual topic? Trek talk is more interesting anyway;)[2010/10/19 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha[2010/10/19 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, we ARE weird; finding Trek talk more interesting than domestic violence.[2010/10/19 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hey I have a second Life friend who Wrote an episode fo Star Trek Next Generation. The story about it is awesome.[2010/10/19 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh I changed my mind again. Can I be 7 of 9?[2010/10/19 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I guess that says a lot about the end of our civilisation…[2010/10/19 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: No no no…Borg Queen![2010/10/19 16:20]  Luisa Bourgoin: we acted violent against our toppic :([2010/10/19 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: really, Art? And was that episode aired??[2010/10/19 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh Borg Queen.[2010/10/19 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now THAT’s a thought.[2010/10/19 16:21]  Serendipity Seraph: We can switch back and forth between those roles, darling! :)[2010/10/19 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Hypatia Pickens is her avatar name and she once gave a sl lecture about the writing, filming and everything about the episode.[2010/10/19 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Goody[2010/10/19 16:21]  Luisa Bourgoin: you could share? oh … form a collective![2010/10/19 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, its called avoidance behaior. DV is so upsetting to us that we’re now discussing Star trek[2010/10/19 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh[2010/10/19 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, you might have a point there…[2010/10/19 16:22]  Luisa Bourgoin: she’s bright :D[2010/10/19 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree[2010/10/19 16:22]  Rhiannon Dragoone: thank you, Luisa.[2010/10/19 16:23]  Luisa Bourgoin: so we could avoid our avoidance tendency … and beat up Arisia?[2010/10/19 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Definitely![2010/10/19 16:23]  Arisia Vita: Violence is born of desperation, dialog is the child of desire.[2010/10/19 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh wise words, Ari :)[2010/10/19 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Wonder how many partnerships in Sl suffer abuse? And I do not mean BDSM or anythng consensual.[2010/10/19 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would say, about the same as in the physical world, Extie ;)[2010/10/19 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: what is abuse in SL physically? The bump you around?[2010/10/19 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: is more verbal/textual and harrassment. pyschological maybe.[2010/10/19 16:25]  Serendipity Seraph: psychological abuse is probably much more prevalent in all worlds[2010/10/19 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Violence I think happens when our Testosterone rage response is triggered for whatever reason. Evolutionarily, this had more value than it does today.[2010/10/19 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “bumping around” in the sense of violently pushing other avatars against their will is an AR’able offense[2010/10/19 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: I dunno…maybe you could rez objects around someone, overdose them on particle effects..juat generally make SL miserable(er) for them.[2010/10/19 16:25]  Serendipity Seraph: estrogen rages happen to. not one hormone phenomenon[2010/10/19 16:26]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, its all psychological abuse here in SL; but somethings, like bumping, have rl connotations that are imported here[2010/10/19 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Estrogen Rages sounds like a good name for a female punk band.[2010/10/19 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: Women definitely have testosterone rage in their hormonal quiver as well as men.[2010/10/19 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahha Extie[2010/10/19 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: already a band called the Cramps but could do others off of PMS[2010/10/19 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I was just in an IM about a sim thinking of having an amnesty of the ppl they banned, and i was reminded of a friend who knew that i opposed estate bans at Philosophy Island, as I was nearly subjedt to them, and she told me that the one person the sim owner banned, without regard to her own rules, was stalking her, and also my friend, who he thought was the owners alt[2010/10/19 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hormonal Quiver is also a great name for a band :D[2010/10/19 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Stalking evne in a vitrual world, is violence[2010/10/19 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha Gwyn[2010/10/19 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Rhi[2010/10/19 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: He gave me a hormonal quiver….. sigh[2010/10/19 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And it’s far less fun than it seems.[2010/10/19 16:28]  Serendipity Seraph: I love that name. great for so many things. Hormonal Quiver[2010/10/19 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡[2010/10/19 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha! I’d use it for a blog on fashion 😉 lol[2010/10/19 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, thanks you all for a great convo, but rl work beckons[2010/10/19 16:28]  Rhiannon Dragoone: See you all next week![2010/10/19 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: nice idea Gwyn! ha ha[2010/10/19 16:28]  Serendipity Seraph: c u rhi[2010/10/19 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: great, the domain name is still free ;)[2010/10/19 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye, Rhi![2010/10/19 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Coool Gwyn has an actual smiley…㋡ Hah now I do too, thanks to cut and paste㋡[2010/10/19 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: CU Seren[2010/10/19 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me domestically Beats up Rhiannon just for the hell of it.[2010/10/19 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie[2010/10/19 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Art[2010/10/19 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: kidding![2010/10/19 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: OK with that happy note, I am calling an end to this discussion![2010/10/19 16:29]  Luisa Bourgoin: ㋡[2010/10/19 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me hangs head in shame[2010/10/19 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: actually, I was once victim of abuse in SL… it was more frightening than I thought it would be, and afterwards, I was constantly asking myself, “why didn’t I simply press Ctrl-Q???”[2010/10/19 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: TAKING THINGS AT INTERFACE VALUE..

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