Thinkers October 12 2010: CAN MMORPGs SAVE THE WORLD?

Khannea and Tarrah at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers![2010/10/12 15:35]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, lol[2010/10/12 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)[2010/10/12 15:35]  Serendipity Seraph: hey hey Eternally Naughty :)[2010/10/12 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: This week we are asking ‘CAN MMORPGs SAVE THE WORLD?[2010/10/12 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: As more people play online online games and grow accustomed to the fun of living there, they will demand that earthly governments focus on manufacturing a happy society. So people like Castronova and Lanier believe, but is this at all possible?[2010/10/12 15:35]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me blushes at Seren[2010/10/12 15:35]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, ,yeah, my tag from my Club[2010/10/12 15:35]  Luisa Bourgoin: and, if not, who will save SL?[2010/10/12 15:35]  Serendipity Seraph: in most games you don’t “live there”[2010/10/12 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: What MMORPG has a happy society?[2010/10/12 15:36]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Every MMO has conflict otherwise there is no challenge[2010/10/12 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was wondering about that…. Azeroth, as a model society? ;)[2010/10/12 15:36]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, that makes SL unique; you live here[2010/10/12 15:36]  Luisa Bourgoin: Zob, not referencing this one probably :D[2010/10/12 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: We sure get plenty of griping here in SL.[2010/10/12 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, aparrently life in an MMORPG is more meaningful than RL.[2010/10/12 15:36]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: They tried to make one with no conflict and it never reached alpha testing[2010/10/12 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: btw, “RL” is outdated. We now say “physical world”[2010/10/12 15:36]  Luisa Bourgoin: we live here because we can’t live There[2010/10/12 15:36]  Ataraxia Azemus: Nah. It’s just more Skinner boxy and addictive[2010/10/12 15:36]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Planet, a game with no conflict?[2010/10/12 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not even SL![2010/10/12 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Cripes, RL is two letters while physical world is 12. I think.[2010/10/12 15:37]  Serendipity Seraph: SL, opensim, others..[2010/10/12 15:37]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: well no violent conflict[2010/10/12 15:37]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: oh and please call me Tarrah[2010/10/12 15:37]  Ataraxia Azemus: PW? :p[2010/10/12 15:37]  Serendipity Seraph: hmm? how is it more meaningful?[2010/10/12 15:37]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, outside of one philosophy sim i could mention, i don’t see much conflict in SL[2010/10/12 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie, yes. But this is a discussion for another day[2010/10/12 15:37]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Aside from a tiff here or there[2010/10/12 15:37]  Serendipity Seraph: is SL a MMORPG or a virtual world? what are the distinctions?[2010/10/12 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have violent content here[2010/10/12 15:38]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: oh and SL is physical too[2010/10/12 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say, SL is a synthetic world ;)[2010/10/12 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: MMO is correct, but RPG is only party correct[2010/10/12 15:38]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well,, could someone refresh my memore as to what a MMoRPG is?[2010/10/12 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL’s servers are physical, yes[2010/10/12 15:38]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I can make a prim and set it to physicl and thus it’s physical[2010/10/12 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: It is more meaningful in that it has clear progression. The harder you work, the more you are rewarded. RL is not always like that. It is pointless.[2010/10/12 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: SL is online chat with some graphics. :P[2010/10/12 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Planet! touché![2010/10/12 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: MAssive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game[2010/10/12 15:38]  Serendipity Seraph: how would a VW/MMORPG “save the world”?[2010/10/12 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhh Extie[2010/10/12 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: She prefers the name Tarrah or T, Gwyn.[2010/10/12 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: now that is interesting.[2010/10/12 15:38]  Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, the Massive i was missing[2010/10/12 15:38]  Rhiannon Dragoone: thanks[2010/10/12 15:38]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yeah, I like Zobe’s definition :p[2010/10/12 15:38]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: it can’t[2010/10/12 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: What frustrates me is how virtual worlds go out of their way to re-create the limitations of RL.[2010/10/12 15:39]  Serendipity Seraph: I think upload space could save us in potential but we are a ways from that[2010/10/12 15:39]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Zobeid, yeah, they import baggage[2010/10/12 15:39]  Ataraxia Azemus: I’ve sorta heard this idea before. There was some TED talk about it or something, where a game designer wanted to implement a system of rewards into repetitive RL behaviors[2010/10/12 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Sort of the opposite of our concept for today. RL continually ruining VR rather than VR saving RL.[2010/10/12 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But one thing about SL, in particular, is how easy it is to overcome the obstacles it could take years to overcome in RL[2010/10/12 15:40]  Ataraxia Azemus: So, like, you brush your teeth, you get a token.[2010/10/12 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo, that’s an old issue… you can study it, but urrealism is far less attractive to a mainstream audience than fantasy.[2010/10/12 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, the idea is that soon everyone will be required to have an av and use a world like SL. And the great fun they have here will drive them to demand a society where wellbeing is more important than economics.[2010/10/12 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: I think the freedom of virtual worlds could be considerably more than physical world and save us a lot or at least give us much more room to grow/improve in various ways[2010/10/12 15:40]  Ataraxia Azemus: And that talk pretty much terrified me, so.[2010/10/12 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ataraxia, some parents do that to their kids ;)[2010/10/12 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not talking about surrealism. . . I mean simple things like DRM/permissions/artificial scarcity.[2010/10/12 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: economics is part of wellbeing by definition[2010/10/12 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: according o kzero, 2 billion humans will be in VWs in 2013.[2010/10/12 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: Role Playing is partly correct because we play the role of avatar. But Game is only someimes correct and fits very few of the definitions of Game, such as rules, goals and object.[2010/10/12 15:40]  Ataraxia Azemus: True! But when applied to adults, it’s sorta scary :)[2010/10/12 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah… well, Zo, you can create your own ;)[2010/10/12 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: launch OpenSim etc[2010/10/12 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: I think in terms of interaction with many more people in more flexible ways that VWs have a lot to offer of course[2010/10/12 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: What exactly is opensim; when i checked it out, it seemed more a link to virtual worlds than one of its own[2010/10/12 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah, Scarp, but I think Lanier and Castronova did not have SL in mind when talking about MMORPGs.[2010/10/12 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ataraxia, MMORPGs appeal to adults too, perhaps because they miss the token-rewarding times of their childhood[2010/10/12 15:41]  Luisa Bourgoin: there is an entry barrier into VR. You need equipment, and connectivity[2010/10/12 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: OpenSim = reverse-engineered clone of the SL servers.[2010/10/12 15:41]  Scarp Godenot: I think we have to distinguish between virtual world and virtual world game.[2010/10/12 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, we can have jobs here in SL; i have too; one is more my own business[2010/10/12 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi joey![2010/10/12 15:42]  Joey Deledda: Hey[2010/10/12 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, i agree[2010/10/12 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: it is Open Simulator. white room creation of equivalent to (but somewhat different) SL servers[2010/10/12 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Opensim is SL for people who do not think SL is rubbish enough.[2010/10/12 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But what happens there?[2010/10/12 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, ok, Ex[2010/10/12 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: there are many grids, not just one. and anyone can run a standalone region or regions as well[2010/10/12 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Whatever happens here.[2010/10/12 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: What we need is more emergent reality games. Take for instance ‘minecraft'[2010/10/12 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: OpenSim is starting to work pretty well, from what I’ve seen.[2010/10/12 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: interconnected by hypergrid TP[2010/10/12 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh[2010/10/12 15:42]  Joey Deledda: minecraft though?[2010/10/12 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: basically same capabilities as in SL[2010/10/12 15:42]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: The only was an MMO/VW can save the material world is by teaching humanity how to make a better world for ourselves[2010/10/12 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah, it probably is Zoe. Amazing how these things change.[2010/10/12 15:43]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: GAMES are teaching tools[2010/10/12 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is what supposedly LL has as mission statement, T ;)[2010/10/12 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It is NOT working.[2010/10/12 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, not the teaching bit lol[2010/10/12 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: some people certainly learned how to make a better world for themselves, but not *teach* how to do it for the whole of humanity.[2010/10/12 15:44]  Luisa Bourgoin: argueable better .. there had been critics on SL wages[2010/10/12 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: quite![2010/10/12 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we need Castronova and the unions to come to SL and see how much slave work is going on here ;)[2010/10/12 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: unions? hell no.[2010/10/12 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *snickers*[2010/10/12 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: human rights advocates, then? ;)[2010/10/12 15:45]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: yeah unionise second life[2010/10/12 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: Next year I fullly tend to do all I can to unionize and democratiz SL[2010/10/12 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: Those who disparage unions need a history lesson of the robber baron era[2010/10/12 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: Me myself and I[2010/10/12 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Memory is short, Scarp :)[2010/10/12 15:45]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: if you need a hand Khanni, don’t hesitate to ask[2010/10/12 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: SL is too corrupt to ever be reformed![2010/10/12 15:45]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Hi Naxos![2010/10/12 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, yah, unions would probably make me charge for my discussions, instead of work for tips[2010/10/12 15:45]  Serendipity Seraph: one of the best things about VWs is the ability to do a lot of things differently much more easily. last thing I want is to make it just like the physical world[2010/10/12 15:46]  Naxos Mycron: Helllo :-)[2010/10/12 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: What do I hgave to lose?[2010/10/12 15:46]  Naxos Mycron: hi everyone ;-)[2010/10/12 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Naxos[2010/10/12 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Naxos[2010/10/12 15:46]  Naxos Mycron: :-)[2010/10/12 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp sitting over there opposite us looks like some poor guy being interrogated by the 7 scary women.[2010/10/12 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: /me quivers with fear[2010/10/12 15:46]  Naxos Mycron: lol[2010/10/12 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, lets make him accountable, then[2010/10/12 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: Aw.[2010/10/12 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, get back over here on the scary woman side[2010/10/12 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: Right when I swivel my camera around[2010/10/12 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we’re all humans, Seren…. history has shown that no matter how far away humans go to isolate themselves from society, they bring their common heritage with them, and build societies exactly the same like the ones they have come from.[2010/10/12 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: Yay! Reinforcements![2010/10/12 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, that is next week’s discussion..[2010/10/12 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what, scaring Scarp?[2010/10/12 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey I am not human! Digital person! Digital person![2010/10/12 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: put can one vote with one’s computer? you bet![2010/10/12 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: I came from the MUCK society, where we had no money and everything was free. :D[2010/10/12 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Digital persons are humans too ;)[2010/10/12 15:47]  Naxos Mycron: lol[2010/10/12 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, yeah, i was involved in society building, and the resemblance to Tudo Stuart England in the sim were frightening; esp, when i almost ended up in the Tower lol[2010/10/12 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Only until we improve;)[2010/10/12 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: *Tudor[2010/10/12 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: Sorry, but everything is NEVER free.[2010/10/12 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: recreating the world and trying on new worlds is part of why this is important[2010/10/12 15:47]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: indeed they are Gwyn[2010/10/12 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: Someone pays[2010/10/12 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have to second Scarp on that.[2010/10/12 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Someone pays for others to enjoy it for free.[2010/10/12 15:48]  Naxos Mycron: whats shall be the difference? lol[2010/10/12 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m fine with the “trying” and “recreating”, Seren.[2010/10/12 15:48]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: we have to escape such out dated memes and “Economy” and “Pays”[2010/10/12 15:48]  Luisa Bourgoin: but some costs can be infinitely small[2010/10/12 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s also important for some to learn why history made the mistakes it did ;)[2010/10/12 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Agalmics did not seem to catch on, T.[2010/10/12 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: these are early empties at going beyond the limits of the physical – early upload space models[2010/10/12 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe an idea ahead of its time?[2010/10/12 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: barter everything, T! I’ll give you half my cow and a rabbit in exchange for your outfit[2010/10/12 15:49]  Object: Hi Extropia DaSilva! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.[2010/10/12 15:49]  Ataraxia Azemus: …which half?[2010/10/12 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Luko![2010/10/12 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The uneaten one![2010/10/12 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Any economy is just a system for allocating limited resources among people with unlimited needs and wants.[2010/10/12 15:50]  Luko Enoch: hi[2010/10/12 15:50]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Luko[2010/10/12 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: But what if resources weren’t limited?[2010/10/12 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: *Snuggles up*[2010/10/12 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, why are you looking at me when you say, ‘the uneaten one?'[2010/10/12 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, we’re back to nanotechnology miracles again, Zo? :)[2010/10/12 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha RHi :)[2010/10/12 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wholly unintended![2010/10/12 15:50]  Serendipity Seraph: what is limited here? prims? time of course, energy, vision.[2010/10/12 15:50]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hehehe[2010/10/12 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: trade is as old as mankind[2010/10/12 15:50]  Luisa Bourgoin: resourcefullness is half way into happiness. society structure … there is still room for improvement[2010/10/12 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: No, I’m talking about the ability to freely copy data — such as, in a virtual world.[2010/10/12 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: that is not necessary to a virtual world[2010/10/12 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You still have time as a finite resource.[2010/10/12 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: takes some work to remove though[2010/10/12 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, that’s for sure; and you have to pay for that[2010/10/12 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: or limit[2010/10/12 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: And server space.[2010/10/12 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That too, yes.[2010/10/12 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: time and creativity and skill and imagination[2010/10/12 15:51]  Luisa Bourgoin: data bits are physical … try moving huge amounts[2010/10/12 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: In your world Zobeid, how do creative people eat?[2010/10/12 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you look closely at it, we have an economy in SL because of those.[2010/10/12 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: creativity, skill, imagination, talent, for example… are A *VERY SCARCE* RESOURCE :)[2010/10/12 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops sorry for caps[2010/10/12 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok Congrats Khannea and T, this week’s transcript cover stars.[2010/10/12 15:52]  Luisa Bourgoin: no scarity on uppercase, huh?[2010/10/12 15:52]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: yes and much of them are sorely undervalued[2010/10/12 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha[2010/10/12 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: quite so, T[2010/10/12 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: :)))[2010/10/12 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: none :)[2010/10/12 15:53]  Serendipity Seraph: yep[2010/10/12 15:53]  Nosa Xaris: Hi everyone, I’m kind of new to SL, can I ask some questions about avatars?[2010/10/12 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi NOsa![2010/10/12 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, ironically, MMORPGs create far more artificial constraints on their in-world economy than SL ;)[2010/10/12 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello, Nosa :)[2010/10/12 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Uh…Yeah OK. Ask away.[2010/10/12 15:54]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Hi Nosa[2010/10/12 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and welcome to SL![2010/10/12 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yes, welcome, Nosa[2010/10/12 15:54]  Nosa Xaris: hi I was just interested in what people generally think of their avatars[2010/10/12 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: sure. which is part of why I like open virtual worlds more than MMORPGs[2010/10/12 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: In my world, creative people would “eat” by doing something that other people are willing to pay for. It’s not a radical concept.[2010/10/12 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … where prims are limited, time is scarce, creativity is at a premium, and thus we have an economy worth 0.6 billions US$[2010/10/12 15:54]  Nosa Xaris: mine, Its not an exact representation but i find the process of creating it to be interesting[2010/10/12 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: I love mine. It is the focus of my identity.[2010/10/12 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: Yes Zobeid, it is called intellectual property, and it is NOT free.[2010/10/12 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: creation *is* interesting in itself :)[2010/10/12 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: Sure. or something someone appreciates enough to feed them at least. :)[2010/10/12 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: You don’t need “intellectual property” established and enforced by some central authority in order to have creativity. Because for most of human history there was no such scheme, and yet somehow there was creativity.[2010/10/12 15:55]  Nosa Xaris: yes, I think i dentity has a lot to do with avatars too[2010/10/12 15:55]  Serendipity Seraph: IP does not require “central authority”[2010/10/12 15:56]  Luisa Bourgoin: for some, there still ain’t no such thing like IP rights[2010/10/12 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: IP is a creation of central authority.[2010/10/12 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: It does indeed Nosa. As to whose identiy, that is something you shall discover as you go along.[2010/10/12 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, it just requires common sense and respect for the others — also, two scarce resources![2010/10/12 15:56]  Serendipity Seraph: for most of human history we barely survived. so what? I think the two are a bit connected[2010/10/12 15:56]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: This is Second Life Nosa, you don’t have to make an exact copy of your atomic body; you can be anything and anyone you want.[2010/10/12 15:56]  Serendipity Seraph: the notion you own your life and what you produce and only trade by choice[2010/10/12 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And by doing that, Nosa, you’ll discover a lot about yourself.[2010/10/12 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Anyhow, our “IP” system of today is doing a lot more to stifle creativity than to foster it.[2010/10/12 15:57]  Nosa Xaris: I think I am still in the “creation” process – I’m still exploring all the areas out here[2010/10/12 15:57]  Ataraxia Azemus: I do find the virtual economy aspect of SL disappointing, but I don’t really know what else to expect[2010/10/12 15:57]  Scarp Godenot: You can also have several avatars and accounts and be many manifestations of your personality, Nosa,,,,,,[2010/10/12 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Compared to what, Zo?[2010/10/12 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: agreed current IP laws are fucked up.[2010/10/12 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fucked up, sure[2010/10/12 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: but does not mean the entire concept is wrong[2010/10/12 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right![2010/10/12 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Mine is almost an exact replica, Nosa, although I’m not a red head irl[2010/10/12 15:58]  Ataraxia Azemus: It takes a good deal of time and picking up on specialized skills to build well, and some people monetize it. C’est la vie.[2010/10/12 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Bevan![2010/10/12 15:58]  Bevan Whitfield: hi![2010/10/12 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: You can even claim your own personality and self, ahead of the technical capability to live autonomously as an AI:)[2010/10/12 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya Bevan, welcome :)[2010/10/12 15:58]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Hi Bevan[2010/10/12 15:58]  Bevan Whitfield: oh good god Gwyn -[2010/10/12 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Atara, what’s disappointing; we can get jobs easily, start our own business[2010/10/12 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: The problem with intellectual property laws is that they are only enforced by the strong against the weak. And creators are exploited because of the power differences.[2010/10/12 15:58]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Bevan[2010/10/12 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: It provides a lot of freedom, esp from the more authoritarian sims, like PI[2010/10/12 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Bevan[2010/10/12 15:58]  Bevan Whitfield: hi everyone[2010/10/12 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Bevan — lol I thought we were friends already![2010/10/12 15:58]  Serendipity Seraph: not true scarp[2010/10/12 15:58]  Bevan Whitfield: yes I did too!![2010/10/12 15:58]  Luisa Bourgoin: job yes, payments … doh![2010/10/12 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Withoiut the virtual economy, i’d have been screwed by PI[2010/10/12 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: or not necessarily true at least[2010/10/12 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: π ?[2010/10/12 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Everyone is your friend, Gwyn:)[2010/10/12 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: equality under law is a pretty good idea[2010/10/12 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha that’s true[2010/10/12 15:59]  Nosa Xaris: thanks for the input, very insightful[2010/10/12 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: even if seldom practiced fully[2010/10/12 15:59]  Ataraxia Azemus: It’s disappointing that that stuff exists in an evironment when it doesn’t need to[2010/10/12 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what stuff, Ataraxia??[2010/10/12 15:59]  Bevan Whitfield: lol but I we are all over the place so had no clue we weren’t friended here after all this time :-)[2010/10/12 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Atara, i suppose, but we’ve talking human beings[2010/10/12 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins @ Bevan :)[2010/10/12 16:00]  Bevan Whitfield: hhahha[2010/10/12 16:00]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: You’ll have to excuse me; migraine coming on[2010/10/12 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: NP Nosa. BTW we are Thinkers, a weekly discussion group that discusses all kinds of things. This week we are pondering something Jaron Lanier and Ed Castronova said: That MMORPGs will encourage a happy society.[2010/10/12 16:00]  Ataraxia Azemus: Economies, jobs, businesses, Gwyn[2010/10/12 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh….[2010/10/12 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm[2010/10/12 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Aww, sorry to hear that T. Lie down and I do hope it gets better soon.[2010/10/12 16:01]  Ataraxia Azemus: Sorry if my words get out of sync…I am so very very very very laggy today :[[2010/10/12 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Atara, i don’t see why its so disappointing;[2010/10/12 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, we don’t “need” that[2010/10/12 16:01]  PlanetNiles Dreamscape: TTFN, this has been a fascinating discussion so far; can I have a transcript later?[2010/10/12 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we could all run around in blank avatars and sit on plywood cubes.[2010/10/12 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, i think we do; i was just pointing out that otherwise we’d be beholden to authoritarian regimes in sims, just like in rl[2010/10/12 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes. I shall have the transcript on my blog by tomorrow.[2010/10/12 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Extie posts them on her blog, T — I hope you feel well soon!)[2010/10/12 16:01]  Serendipity Seraph: in what way? more fulfillment? more distraction? more outlet for creativity and other things? more potentiall for various values including monetary?[2010/10/12 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: Isn’t that against the TOS? :P[2010/10/12 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: When i was booted by Philosophy Island, i had my own business, so i was fine[2010/10/12 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I’d be unable to hold discussions without economies, jobs, businesses[2010/10/12 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: No. Only private chat is against the TOS.[2010/10/12 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: When did they change that?[2010/10/12 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: what is against the TOS?[2010/10/12 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Private chat is against the ToS?[2010/10/12 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaaah[2010/10/12 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: huh?[2010/10/12 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you mean transcripts…[2010/10/12 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Keeping a log of the discussion and posting it. It used to not be allowed unless you had permission from everyone involved.[2010/10/12 16:02]  Scarp Godenot: I think she means encryption[2010/10/12 16:02]  Bevan Whitfield: ty Rhinnon – found a group slot[2010/10/12 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, and now if it’s said in public, you can transcript it without permission?[2010/10/12 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, you can post open chat now[2010/10/12 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interesting![2010/10/12 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: nope. their viewer happily records them. publishing private wo permission yes[2010/10/12 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeha, Bevin[2010/10/12 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I didn’t know that :)[2010/10/12 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, i record everything[2010/10/12 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: me too lol[2010/10/12 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: I didn’t know that either.[2010/10/12 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: That way i have evidence when someone tries to screw me[2010/10/12 16:03]  Bevan Whitfield: I do too[2010/10/12 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, Second Thoughts has been merrily posting full transcripts for years without anyone kicking up fuss, so I think I am OK.[2010/10/12 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*[2010/10/12 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: me too. should be fundamental right to never forget anything you don’t want to[2010/10/12 16:03]  Luisa Bourgoin: recording != publishing[2010/10/12 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: I never said it was enforced, I just said it was against TOS. :P[2010/10/12 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Luisa[2010/10/12 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: which is another positive about the wired up life including VWs[2010/10/12 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: I don’t think recording is publishing unless it is…. well…… published..[2010/10/12 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: OK, well, if anyone here has an objection to me posting a transcript, please say so.[2010/10/12 16:04]  Bevan Whitfield: but my current 3.5 years of SL local chat log is huge[2010/10/12 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely no objections from me, Extie ;)[2010/10/12 16:04]  Bevan Whitfield: I’m fine with it[2010/10/12 16:04]  Luko Enoch: thumbs up[2010/10/12 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: :)[2010/10/12 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Jadya![2010/10/12 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, where were we…? Somewhere lost in the discussion if we could create a better worlld without economy, and run around in blank avatars and use plywood cubes….[2010/10/12 16:05]  Ataraxia Azemus: I don’t mind[2010/10/12 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and just imagine the rest in our minds[2010/10/12 16:05]  Jayda Ferrentino: ty[2010/10/12 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like MUDS :)[2010/10/12 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *giggles*[2010/10/12 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: A world without economy would be a world where an elite would dictate to the rest of us[2010/10/12 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: sounds like Teleplace *smirk*[2010/10/12 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh heh[2010/10/12 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I’d leave SL in a heartbeat without jobs, economies and businesses[2010/10/12 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL was a bit like that before the economy was introduced.[2010/10/12 16:06]  Ataraxia Azemus: Why would we have blank avatars and plywood cubes? People would still make stuff :p[2010/10/12 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Given what a mess virtual worlds have been thus far, I don’t see them inspiring world governments to create utopia anytime soon. :)[2010/10/12 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: heck i’d leave RL without jobs, economies and businesses[2010/10/12 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha Rhi :)[2010/10/12 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo, it should give you a hint why there are NO utopias ;)[2010/10/12 16:06]  Bevan Whitfield: well at least we are not bobble-heads with giant tennis shoes, but each to their own[2010/10/12 16:06]  Serendipity Seraph: actually, it is rather amazing what is here to me. given rather humble roots and a lot of energy poured in.[2010/10/12 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My argument is that if we can create an utopia virtually going on for decades, we will be able to implement it in the physical world too.[2010/10/12 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, and for millions of people too[2010/10/12 16:07]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol Bevan[2010/10/12 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s easy to do utopias for a handful :)[2010/10/12 16:07]  Serendipity Seraph: sure. lay out the design specs, gwyn! :)[2010/10/12 16:07]  Jayda Ferrentino: didn’t you read lord of the flies[2010/10/12 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: true, Jayda… good argument[2010/10/12 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: I happen to know that Virtual World stuff DOES inspire real world stuff in some instance. Specifically the Australian Architectural community has been very inspired by being exposed to Second Life building methods through the University of Western Australia according to Raphaela Nightfire…[2010/10/12 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, not even for a few.[2010/10/12 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Utopia? Boring, the ever-evolving extropia is more interesting.[2010/10/12 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe[2010/10/12 16:08]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Bevan, lol; i like a fairly realistic avatar, but for a while i went to one sim as a Platonic Solid, as they only allowed me to be nude as a geometrical figure[2010/10/12 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s scary, Scarp. :/[2010/10/12 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: now they build in Australia with prims? ;)[2010/10/12 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: heh[2010/10/12 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: did a collection of platonic solids count? :)[2010/10/12 16:08]  Bevan Whitfield: well yes and all the architects being able to build together in 3D from all over the planet[2010/10/12 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Rhi[2010/10/12 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Have they started putting 20 foot high ceilings in all their buildings?[2010/10/12 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol ![2010/10/12 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: you can have grids all you want with no IP enforcement and invite all who want that sort of world to come.[2010/10/12 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: not a problem[2010/10/12 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me wonders how different people would build in SL if we only had first.person view as default[2010/10/12 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s an experiment I’d like to try, Seren.[2010/10/12 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And there are a few like that, Seren[2010/10/12 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are a few, Zo….[2010/10/12 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: You mean already running? Point me towards it. :D[2010/10/12 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: The tools of Architectural creation including the top CAD programs were unable to duplicate the 3d immersiveness of SL building tools according Raphaela….. They were able to change their rl builds by building things they could walk around and experience beforehand…. This is pretty cool I think.[2010/10/12 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ruled ruthlessly by whoever has set them up and their buddies :)[2010/10/12 16:10]  Serendipity Seraph: easy. go to osgrid. cheap cheap land. no IP enforcement although not everything is full perms. but a lot is[2010/10/12 16:10]  Bevan Whitfield: teach in a non-dangerous area[2010/10/12 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Just like a MUCK then. :)[2010/10/12 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, well, they eventually caught on that the Platonic Solid was nude and kicked me out[2010/10/12 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We were joking, Scarp but I totally agree[2010/10/12 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Should be familiar territory for me.[2010/10/12 16:10]  Bevan Whitfield: yes land is cheap but what is the cost to rebuild?[2010/10/12 16:10]  Bevan Whitfield: in OS[2010/10/12 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: a lot. Time is still a limited resource, OS or SL[2010/10/12 16:11]  Bevan Whitfield: yes[2010/10/12 16:11]  Serendipity Seraph: a lot of building tools, textures, buildinds are free.[2010/10/12 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: same with creativity ;)[2010/10/12 16:11]  Bevan Whitfield: well some companies don’t have time for that[2010/10/12 16:11]  Serendipity Seraph: lots of builders hang out on osgrid as well. but sure. not zero cost to move[2010/10/12 16:11]  Free Radar HUD: /me v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets[2010/10/12 16:11]  Bevan Whitfield: if one is lucky, you do get paid per hour to come and learn and build[2010/10/12 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure… and tomorrow, with meshes, people will just go toGoogle Warehouse and download whatever they want. That’s not the point: someone had to ‘pay’ (in time!) to do all those models in the first place.[2010/10/12 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: wb Naxos[2010/10/12 16:11]  Bevan Whitfield: but[2010/10/12 16:12]  Bevan Whitfield: yes and I hope they get paid for their work[2010/10/12 16:12]  Naxos Mycron: thanks[2010/10/12 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: Speaking of building Mesh open Beta starts tomorrow. On LL Aditi grid. Open to all.[2010/10/12 16:12]  Serendipity Seraph: yes. and up to those someones what they charge for and what they do not.[2010/10/12 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: most aren’t[2010/10/12 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly. It’s great that a lot of people live well enough to be able to afford giving away their time for free![2010/10/12 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Making the first of anything takes time and skill in SL, but (depending on copy/transfer settings) making the 2nd or the 5 millionth is a cinch. Just copy![2010/10/12 16:13]  Bevan Whitfield: hobbiest[2010/10/12 16:13]  Bevan Whitfield: s*[2010/10/12 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s true, Extie[2010/10/12 16:13]  Bevan Whitfield: but a lot are getting paid real money for scripting and building[2010/10/12 16:13]  Bevan Whitfield: it’s up to the community to[2010/10/12 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: sure. but if you only can make one sale before everyone else just copies then you charge a lot for that 1st one to recoup costs[2010/10/12 16:13]  Bevan Whitfield: make sure that happens[2010/10/12 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but you can’t survive in an economy where you have to depend on others to give all their time away for free ;)[2010/10/12 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: and make some profict for your time and effort[2010/10/12 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: gotta go[2010/10/12 16:13]  Bevan Whitfield: well be careful with IP rights[2010/10/12 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: And….Today’s hobby builder is tomorrows Virtual World professional[2010/10/12 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye, Khannea![2010/10/12 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye Khannea[2010/10/12 16:13]  Bevan Whitfield: that’s for sure[2010/10/12 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: but what of freedom in VW to be/act/organize a lot differently than you allowed to in the physical world?[2010/10/12 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: a lot of governments dream of ruling the VWs as well[2010/10/12 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Freedom is a mindset ;)[2010/10/12 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: But do you think the great thing about SL is not the few who make a fortune selling virtual stuff, but the many who devote their services for no monetary gain, only because they love what they can do here?[2010/10/12 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Gedanken sind frei” – thoughts are free[2010/10/12 16:15]  Serendipity Seraph: watching out for prim tax[2010/10/12 16:15]  Bevan Whitfield: given that there are no accounting/fiscal standards set up via an Int’l Group of[2010/10/12 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Extie, I’m happy that so many people can afford to give away their time for free, yes[2010/10/12 16:16]  Bevan Whitfield: of of of -> ?[2010/10/12 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quoting my roomie: “I never give my opinion for free. If it were worth anything, I’d charge for it” ;)[2010/10/12 16:16]  Jayda Ferrentino: must’ve been in law[2010/10/12 16:16]  Ataraxia Azemus: But I sure do like free speech :p[2010/10/12 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: there is reason to make much free / open as building basis for richer world faster.[2010/10/12 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: The freedom to act however one wants is here in the virtual world with the SINGLE caveat: to not mess up the enjoyment of your fellow travelers…. Seems like a very basic cultural rule to me.[2010/10/12 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: But it is not free, exactly. I get the benefit of other’s work, and they get the benefit of my work. Or would, if I did anything.[2010/10/12 16:16]  Bevan Whitfield: 1) who is going to set up standards 2) and who the heck is going to permit them to do this[2010/10/12 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Extie 🙂 But that’s mostly because the ratio of creators/consumers is at least 1:10[2010/10/12 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: in some areas, 1:1000 or 1:1000000[2010/10/12 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: servers are in physical space. see what US did to online gambling[2010/10/12 16:17]  Bevan Whitfield: I vote to make me President of VW -> see didn’t happen[2010/10/12 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: no financial interaction with gov controlled banking[2010/10/12 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d vote for you, Bevan :)[2010/10/12 16:17]  Bevan Whitfield: oh hugs :-)[2010/10/12 16:18]  Bevan Whitfield: but if you break this down into pol/econ[2010/10/12 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Bevean, i’m not sure of the convo thread, as I was in IM, but the beauty of an anarcho-capitalist system like SL is no one sets the standards, and no one needs to ask permission[2010/10/12 16:18]  Bevan Whitfield: and there is no quorum[2010/10/12 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: err?[2010/10/12 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh. That’s not true: LL sets *some* standadrds[2010/10/12 16:18]  Bevan Whitfield: well if SL doesn’t see it like that, than what to do?[2010/10/12 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: LL sets all the standards, don’t they?[2010/10/12 16:19]  Serendipity Seraph: SL is not anarcho capitalist. no free banking for instance. no gambling[2010/10/12 16:19]  Bevan Whitfield: LL does for SL[2010/10/12 16:19]  Serendipity Seraph: no real contract enforcement. no real ownership[2010/10/12 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed. It used to be anarcho-capitalist; not any more[2010/10/12 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: what is it now, then?[2010/10/12 16:19]  Bevan Whitfield: but not in gov’t international fiscal policy as a corporation[2010/10/12 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Anyone know?[2010/10/12 16:19]  Serendipity Seraph: we are share croppers here.[2010/10/12 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: It was never entirely anarcho-capitalist, I’d argue. . .[2010/10/12 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh possibly you’re right, Zo.[2010/10/12 16:20]  Scarp Godenot: I have noticed that several of the Open Sim Worlds are PG ONLY. MORE restrictive than SL by the way.[2010/10/12 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, I called it Post-Modern Enlightened Absolutism :)[2010/10/12 16:20]  Serendipity Seraph: can we said up a strong AC grid? That would be very interesting to work on.[2010/10/12 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: very true, Scarp!![2010/10/12 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: AC?[2010/10/12 16:20]  Serendipity Seraph: anarcho capitalist[2010/10/12 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s tough, Seren, you’d have to have the servers on a data haven.[2010/10/12 16:21]  Serendipity Seraph: yes probably[2010/10/12 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Sometimes I wonder if the whole point of postmodernism is to make the understandable unintelligable.[2010/10/12 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and those are very expensive to maintain :([2010/10/12 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha touché, Extie ;)[2010/10/12 16:21]  Serendipity Seraph: and solve the getting fiat currency to your currency issues[2010/10/12 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you know about Enlightened Absolutism, right?[2010/10/12 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, its close enough to anarcho-capitalism[2010/10/12 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: It is interesting to thing of an OpenSim grid where everything is free. Here is where the whole idea breaks down. Someone has to pay for the bandwidth.[2010/10/12 16:21]  Ataraxia Azemus: I should be going…[2010/10/12 16:21]  Ataraxia Azemus: Bye everyone![2010/10/12 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: No I do not.[2010/10/12 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: think[2010/10/12 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye![2010/10/12 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: What is it, Gwyn?[2010/10/12 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Again, i’m seeing it from my recent situations; where i developed a group for discussions, was tossed out of one sim, just went to another; no fuss, mo muss[2010/10/12 16:21]  Serendipity Seraph: everything is not free, right. server resources and bandwidth.[2010/10/12 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure you do, Extie, it was the major political setup of the 18th century[2010/10/12 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Land does cost something on OSGrid, but pretty near everything else is free. . . . so far. . .[2010/10/12 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: They do seem to have some form of working currency now, though.[2010/10/12 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You could do pretty much what you wished, law was randomly applied…. so long as you didn’t hit the Absolute Ruler.[2010/10/12 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not familar with political setups of the 18th century. IT is not my area of expertise.[2010/10/12 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: Land is not the issue, Bandwidth is the issue[2010/10/12 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: server resources are an issue to. check colo prices[2010/10/12 16:23]  Serendipity Seraph: or paying off your own servers[2010/10/12 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right! P2P grids for OpenSim are wishful thinking, nobody has tha much upstreaming bandwidth at their homes — and they would still be paying for it[2010/10/12 16:23]  Serendipity Seraph: yeah. even if I upgrade to business class that is only 10 Mbs up[2010/10/12 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: enough for 20-30 avatars concurrent[2010/10/12 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, at best[2010/10/12 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: I wonder what my Linode has upstream? :/[2010/10/12 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: on a good day[2010/10/12 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tried a server with just 10 Mbps on a co-lo and it was worthless[2010/10/12 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: I think you need something like 100mbps to get an sl type experience with a decent number of avatars running at once in the same place.[2010/10/12 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I never got 20 avatars on it lol — 2-3 at best and it was a lagfest[2010/10/12 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree totally, Scarp, and that’s based on experience[2010/10/12 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: so how would you go about fixing that?[2010/10/12 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: well, i have to log; i have a private student[2010/10/12 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: cu all later!!![2010/10/12 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: take care, Rhi![2010/10/12 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: u 2 Gwyn[2010/10/12 16:25]  Bevan Whitfield: by and ty Rhianon![2010/10/12 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: Bandwidth will go way higher in the future, and this problem will be solved by time.[2010/10/12 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye Rhi![2010/10/12 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: by Extropia[2010/10/12 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: bye and ur welcome bevan[2010/10/12 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Light up that legendary “dark fiber”![2010/10/12 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not exactly, Scarp. When bandwidth gets way higher, the demands put on downloading all those textures will increase too[2010/10/12 16:26]  Serendipity Seraph: for most it is cheaper to do simhost or the equivalent than to maintain your own regions open to others on home machines[2010/10/12 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: If we all had the bandwidth they have in South Korea, would that help?[2010/10/12 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s *downstreaming* bandwidth, Extie[2010/10/12 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Useless for hosting grids.[2010/10/12 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: So no?[2010/10/12 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No.[2010/10/12 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: actually you have some control over textures used though and their are ways to eventually make that a lot better[2010/10/12 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Is there anything at all that could make lag less of a problem?[2010/10/12 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can get cheap 100 Mbps connections in Europe in fiber… but it’s all downstream[2010/10/12 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: Specialized high bandwidth server farms, similar to web server farms, in which you rent the server/bandwidth space will be the model for future smaller VR worlds.[2010/10/12 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s possible, Scarp.[2010/10/12 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: What is lag? There are so many kinds. . .[2010/10/12 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: yes, Intel put 1000 avatars on a single sim by rearchitecting[2010/10/12 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me suggests taking a look at — very intriguing technology[2010/10/12 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Correction, Seren: they put 1000 *bots* on a sim. Bots don’t download textures ;)[2010/10/12 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: There is no spoon![2010/10/12 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: INtel did that by distributive networking, sort of like what happens with Bit Torrent software.[2010/10/12 16:28]  Serendipity Seraph: these did as I understand it. they were careful to make it as realistic as possible[2010/10/12 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, the sim still has to track 1000 avatars, which is amazing, but….[2010/10/12 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The bots did download textures? HMM :)[2010/10/12 16:28]  Jayda Ferrentino: o noes[2010/10/12 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, is Ray just dreaming pie in the sky when he says one day VR will be full immersion, totally realistic? Which I take to mean, high-def photoreal graphics with zero lag and draw-distance to the far horizon?[2010/10/12 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure.[2010/10/12 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, 10 years ago, doing shadows in real time was science fiction.[2010/10/12 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Sure as in Ray is wrong, it will never happen?[2010/10/12 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now it’s commonplace[2010/10/12 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, it will[2010/10/12 16:29]  Serendipity Seraph: It is not pie in the sky. we need much smarter architectures though[2010/10/12 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: THank god! Ray wrong? My world would have crashed down![2010/10/12 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we’ll get full ray-tracers doing 100 FPS in hardware in a couple of years at most[2010/10/12 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: In 10 years will we have an inventory window that makes some kind of sense? :P[2010/10/12 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: not in SL![2010/10/12 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe[2010/10/12 16:30]  Serendipity Seraph: hehehe, zoe[2010/10/12 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I can imagine that in 10 years mmmh[2010/10/12 16:30]  Luisa Bourgoin: I would be happy with Event postings working again[2010/10/12 16:30]  Serendipity Seraph: that they only have inventory on the region server equivalent is nuts as hell[2010/10/12 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you’ll need to have 64-CPU boards to run SL with 25 FPS, but it’ll be pretty photo-realistic.[2010/10/12 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that’s assuming gigabit fibre links will cost 19,99/month[2010/10/12 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: which is reasonable, for 2020[2010/10/12 16:31]  Scarp Godenot: You have seen this Gwyn?[2010/10/12 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what did I see?….[2010/10/12 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: A top end Mac Pro now has 12 cores and up to 24 threads supported.[2010/10/12 16:32]  Serendipity Seraph: someday maybe most rendering will be on big server farms and switched/interpolated between viewpoints only locally[2010/10/12 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes yes[2010/10/12 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: currency 2020 inside european union would be more like 199,50 for some slices bread[2010/10/12 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s why I posted the link to[2010/10/12 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: a 64 cpu computer setyo>[2010/10/12 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: setup?[2010/10/12 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Luisa — yes, good point![2010/10/12 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh…. no, but there are a few, Scarp[2010/10/12 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s not exactly “common” in 2010, but it will be on your mobile phone in 2020 :)[2010/10/12 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well, my time is up![2010/10/12 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW. . . I read the Blue Mars people are working hard to move their rendering to their servers.[2010/10/12 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so Extie…. don’t worry, you’ll get your photo-realism on your mobile phone soon.[2010/10/12 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes they are. And even LL is experimenting with that.[2010/10/12 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn’s futurism gets the last word:)[2010/10/12 16:34]  Luisa Bourgoin: do they move users to their servers, too?[2010/10/12 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just Moore’s Law![2010/10/12 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SEXISM.

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One Response to Thinkers October 12 2010: CAN MMORPGs SAVE THE WORLD?

  1. Serendipity Seraph says:

    Oops. Bad formatting. Lost newlines.

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