Thinkers Sep 21 2010: Is God Redundant?

Ushua Aeon

Extropia DaSilva: Friedrich Niethczhe or however you spell it was half right. God, according to Stephen Hawking, is dead. Or never existed, But philosophy is also dead (again, according to Stephen Hawking). Why? Because of the multiverse. When you have a multiverse, any event no matter how unlikely is bound to ocurr. So that explains our universe.
[2010/09/21 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: phoenix browser must suck. not seeing naked people. damn
[2010/09/21 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: It seems to me…
[2010/09/21 15:40]  Luisa Bourgoin: /me should get rid of prefs, too
[2010/09/21 15:40]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extropia, no, it doesn’t, actually, because why are we in this one, rather than that one?
[2010/09/21 15:40]  Lem Skall: I think we need some explanations
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: define “God”
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Scarp Godenot: The multiverse theory violates Occams Razor. So I am not buying it until there is actual eveidence of it.
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Catz Jewell: im waiting on jerry, he4 has written a paper on this subject that has alot of atheists scratching their heads
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Lem Skall: define multiverse
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Archmage Atlantis: Better?
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Ataraxia Azemus: Define universe. Give two examples.
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, i think its the idea of altenrative realities
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Given infinite time, anything will happen.
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Luisa Bourgoin: ty 😀
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Lem Skall: yeah, but we live in only one reality, right?
[2010/09/21 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: so we are here talking abotu we know not what. 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, Scarp, i’m waiting to see if gravitons disappear; that would be evidence of a multiverse
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: We are in that one. We are in an infinite number of multiverses, sometimes as exact copies, other times as different verisions. Like, in some universes Gwyn runs Thinkers.
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: There is nothing about the universe that points to the existence of infinite time.
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: oh, a naked person. Hey Rhi! 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Naxos Mycron: i dont think science can understand everything of the universe nor that theres no need for a deity anymore
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But its still a nice concept to play with
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: I thought alternate realities were out of fashion in physics and cosmology? Is Hawking bringing them back?
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I like imagination
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: like the new skin!
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Lem Skall: so in infinite time, I will be reborn an infinite number of times?
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Yep.
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Lem Skall: and I will remember everything too?
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Archmage Atlantis: Actually, I can’t quite see how the multi-verse negates anything, or proves anything
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Nope
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: multivers has nada to do with the subject
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Ataraxia Azemus: Me neither, actually
[2010/09/21 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, the proponents of ha holographic theory of the universe want multiple, alternative realities back, and kick the Copenhagen school out.
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Has he proposed an experiment to prove his hypothesis? 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Scarp Godenot: The Multiverse theory is there to fill the void of ‘we don’t know yet’.
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Zo 🙂 Good argument, yes!
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Zobeid,the experiment would be a graviton disappearing
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Lem Skall: sorry, I went to school in a different city than Copenhagen
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Scarp, in a science-y way 😉
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: It might replace God, but it does not replace faith. Because, as Zoe alludes to there is no experimental proof that the multiverse exists.
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Archmage Atlantis: Agree, Scarp
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Serendipity Seraph: not all physicist support it and what does it have to do with God anyway?
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhiannon, first I’d like one to *appear* 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:43]  Archmage Atlantis: I think Hawking is just getting senile
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Catz Jewell: hi jer, 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Personally I find a multiverse more plausible than one universe appearing out of nothing.
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extropia, there is no proof that external reality exists
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Jerry!
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, Gwyneth, me 2; but let’s not be narrow minded
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Luisa Bourgoin: science explains nuthin’. religion does not do that, also
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: believing in things with no evidence *is* faith so how does it replace faith, extie?
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: I said it does not replace faith.
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: The more you try to define ‘God’ the more easily the concept is disproved. What you are left with is an amorphous concept that doesn’t include specifics for that reason.
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Fay!
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh lovely argument, Seren 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe our universe is just a quirk of mathematics. Like a really exotic fractal pattern.
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So are we on a blue plane, or am i still not rezzed?
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Serendipity Seraph: so what is the utility of this God hypothesis, maybe approach it that way?
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: seren, utility of God hypothesis? That He has utility?
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Naxos Mycron: i agree with scarp. although there have been great defintion of god
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Serendipity Seraph: you are rezzed and looking hot, rhi. 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Could be. Of course, in general relativity it cannot be a fractal, but there are ways of reworking Einstein’s theory so the universe is fractal in nature.
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Rhiannon Dragoone: thank you, Seren. Like my new look?
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Serendipity Seraph: very much
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: Rhiannon We are on somewhat of a blue twisted Megaprim with couches and carpets on it.
[2010/09/21 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that would be interesting, Extie!
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp,ty; i was seeing scripts until a moment ago
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Its a nice meeting place
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me likes Rhiannon’s “Eve” look 😉
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Serendipity Seraph: what do these physics theories have to do with the God hypothesis?
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Thanks, Gwyneth
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Lem Skall: am I the only one who sees Rhiannon naked?
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, she’s naked to me as well 😉
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: No, she’s always naked
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually, one of the controversies in cosmology right now is evidence of structures on a scale beyond anything that should exist, according to Big Bang predictions.
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, I am naked
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: Lem, wake up…
[2010/09/21 15:46]  Lem Skall: ah ok, nice look then
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I don’t wear clothes
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: people get something out of the belief in the God hypothesis. has that been replaced or not? what is it?
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: I do think that the Eve myth was around before ‘brazilian’s though.
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Lem Skall: why glasses though?
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Extropia, yeah, that figures; there should be 10 x as much mass as there is too
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: I think humans got bred for autocracy. This manifests in various ways – submission being the general term. It manifests in behavior where individuals suspend their survival drives. Examples are ranging from people becoming depressed and ding – for what reason other than ‘to step on an iceshelft and die’ for the betterment of other monkeys? I call this the “Saddam gene” in all of us.
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Archmage Atlantis: Lem, no one sees Rhi other than naked……at least in my experience…..but I don’t claim to have seen the infinite possibilities of Rhi
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I nearly got caught by a Brazillian serial killer. That was a close shave.
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie 🙂 haha
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, um, maybe i’m missing somegthing, as I came in late,but how is that on the topic
[2010/09/21 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: Religion is just venting this instinct – we instinctively look for the Silverback
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me groans at Ex’s pun
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: ha ha Extie
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I can see i’ve come to tghe right place
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Serendipity Seraph: do you think that is all there is to religion, k?
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: cute, Arch
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: So the topic is the multiverse?
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Serendipity Seraph: nope, not purportedly
[2010/09/21 15:48]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, doesn’t string theory imply 11 dimesnions, and infinite ‘branes?
[2010/09/21 15:49]  Ataraxia Azemus: Religion is huge and multifaceted. You can’t really whittle it down to any one thing.
[2010/09/21 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: That and the question of whether or not we can say god is redundant.
[2010/09/21 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed, Ataraxia 😉
[2010/09/21 15:49]  JerryDon Lane: test
[2010/09/21 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: If I do it, you and what lightningbolt is stopping me?
[2010/09/21 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what I fail to understand, Extie, is the connection.
[2010/09/21 15:49]  Ataraxia Azemus: But. Hawking. I think the language and imagery he’s using is kinda interesting.
[2010/09/21 15:49]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, the only way to make God redundant is to replace him with infinite possibilities, and then wouldn’t the multiverse be god?
[2010/09/21 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: Yes Religion is huge and multifaceted, but not defensible as other than cultural survival value.
[2010/09/21 15:49]  Lem Skall: so, I think that Stevie said we don’t need god to explain the universe, I think that is more specific than just saying we don’t need god
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: The connection is, Hawking claims the most improbable of events have to happen in a multiverse.
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Serendipity Seraph: If you believe in God then God created or was somehow involved in whatever the physics comes out to be. so what is the connection?
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem,Stevie replaced God as an explanation with ‘shut up.
[2010/09/21 15:50]  JerryDon Lane: Yet when we delve into science we arrive at a god
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Serioiusly, that’s what he did
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: If the Universe is god, then why have the concept of god?
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: So you do not need god to explain why all this ‘sweeps hand around the room’ exists.
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: He maintained that there can’t be a before ‘space-time,’ and therefore no act of creation
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Lem Skall: shut up in what context?
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You see mmmh… one can always behold the complexity of the creation and it’s beauty and ability to self-explain it and attribute it all to a wonderful Creator that did it all to amuse us. So, no, I fail to see why the possibility of a multiverse will turn ‘god’ or ‘gods’ into an outdated concept
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And that’s like saying, ‘shut up’
[2010/09/21 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: The God concept is usually invoked in order to control the behavior of others.
[2010/09/21 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, a favourtie pastime of humans 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:51]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp,unlike the goddess concept, which is set to liberateyou
[2010/09/21 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: no. god as the fallback explanation is only one reason people believe such. explaining things better or w/o god hypothesis does not make god go away necessarily.
[2010/09/21 15:51]  JerryDon Lane: The unverse s onlypartlygod. There is a god also dwelling within it called the omega point
[2010/09/21 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with Seren.
[2010/09/21 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: as doesn’t address the other things that keep that belief going
[2010/09/21 15:51]  Lem Skall: I want to be liberated by a goddess
[2010/09/21 15:51]  JerryDon Lane: This is physics, not theology
[2010/09/21 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I knew you’d say that, Lem… 😉
[2010/09/21 15:51]  Ataraxia Azemus: Frank Tipler, where are you now?
[2010/09/21 15:52]  JerryDon Lane: Frank is a right on guy…LOL
[2010/09/21 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, Seren, Aquinas addressed this long ago; even if the universe is entirely explainable in its own terms, there is still the question of why is ther something rather than nothing
[2010/09/21 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Andthat applies to Time itself, all explanations need not be causal, and hence temporal
[2010/09/21 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Rhiannon 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: God definitely exists as a concept. Though the concepts vary according to the millions of individual understandings or it. Crossing the line between concept and perception has yet to be achieved.
[2010/09/21 15:52]  JerryDon Lane: There is something because there was something that caused this something
[2010/09/21 15:52]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me nods at Gwyneth. :))
[2010/09/21 15:52]  Naxos Mycron: this idea that God is redundant is interesting: Spinoza define god 400 years ago as the causa sui, the cause that causes itself.. so he defined god and while defining he drained its meaning and verted into an interesting philosophy of multiples plain natures
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, Gwyn, Spinoza insisted that the only way to avoid an infinite regress was to posit the existence of something that is A) ’cause of itself’ (ie simply exists, with nothing prior to its existence required to explain how it came to be) and is B) not comprised of anything else. IE fundamental. All else is then an aspect of this ONe thing. Well, I suppose you could call that OneALL God.
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Archmage Atlantis: Exactly Rhi, which is why Hawking’s opinion is meaningless
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Yes, Sage
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Serendipity Seraph: ah Aquinas, my primary remembers debunking his arguments for God (among others) in HS humanities class in heart of Bible belt.
[2010/09/21 15:53]  JerryDon Lane: Hawking has lost it, sorry….:-)
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naxos is Extie’s alt 😉
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Serendipity Seraph: great fun
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Naxos Mycron: lol
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And the more we try to replace god with infinitie possibilities, the more we are simply substituting one concept of god with another
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Lem Skall: Extie, or one-all universe
[2010/09/21 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly like Rhiannon said!
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: infinite possibilities has a deep problem. Orders of infinity
[2010/09/21 15:54]  JerryDon Lane: Why not just find god in math and science and be done with it?
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: They are not arguments for god. They merely show that the universe is not incompatible with belief in a creator God.
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, well that’s why i have my discussions; i love to debunk gthe debunkers when it comes to classical arguments for God
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: I think cosmologists just can’t resist stretching out with their speculation, far beyond anything today’s knowledge can support. We just aren’t there yet.
[2010/09/21 15:54]  JerryDon Lane: Study the dounle slit experiments
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Ataraxia Azemus: Rhia, I think that’s what Hawking (and other celebrity physicists) may want.
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: infinite worlds in no way implies infinite repeats of you
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps that’s what Hawkings is telling us, Jerry 😉
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: The infinite possiblilities God is a content free definition, since it contains all possible meanings.
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex,u’ve been reading ur Plantinga, i see
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Ataraxia Azemus: Replacing one concept of God with one they’re authorities on 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (now *I* am Ataraxia’s alt!)
[2010/09/21 15:54]  JerryDon Lane: Mo, hawking is on the opposition to a god in science
[2010/09/21 15:54]  JerryDon Lane: No
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol Gwyn
[2010/09/21 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: No. But quantum physics and Eternal Inflation make infinite copies inevitable.
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Lem Skall: what about the double slit?
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Naxos Mycron: i dontg agree with Rhianon, its not like susbtiting it, its more liek dismmissing its meaning: when defineing god there shall be no god left, but its needed to be defined for the sake of what is outside such concept
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Archmage Atlantis: Perhaps Hawking things he is a non-prophet of the non-God
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Serendipity Seraph: no they do not, extie
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes.
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Archmage Atlantis: *thinks
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: Azathoth
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Then that makes you my alt; everyone knows that all intelligent women are my alt; just ask them at thothica
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: Azathot is the blind idiot god
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Ataraxia Azemus: /me pipes madly
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Azathot? Or Azoroth?
[2010/09/21 15:55]  JerryDon Lane: They show an observer present……..I once wrote a paper on that observer if anyone cares to read it
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: She was God’s wife, you know
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins @ Rhiannon
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Ataraxia Azemus: Azathoth
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Ataraxia Azemus: Ia.
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: I know: i attended the wedding
[2010/09/21 15:55]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me giggles at Gwyneth
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: There we go again, ‘piping’ is that yet another sneer at teabaggers?
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Scarp Godenot: Quantum physics does NOT result in the multiple universe theory. That theory is only an explanation of a quantum effect.
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: In fact, ANY version of quantum physics, be it many worlds or Copenhagon or whatever, when combined with eternal inflation MUST result in infinite copies of this unoverse.
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: huh, wha?
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: how is that, Extie?!
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Ataraxia Azemus: I don’t want to know HOW, Khannea…
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Lem Skall: btw, can there be a god if the world is probabilistic? doesn’t a god impy determinalism?
[2010/09/21 15:56]  JerryDon Lane: The many words theory is very poorly understood in my experience
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Lem Skall: imply*
[2010/09/21 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on what attributes you stick to your version of God, Lem.
[2010/09/21 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: the idea of other multiverse spinning off at each quantum event is pure theory. very very unlikely. and irrelevant as such worlds if existing are by defn unreachable.
[2010/09/21 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, only in principle; back to Occam’s razer
[2010/09/21 15:57]  Lem Skall: imo, a Creator implies determinism
[2010/09/21 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s why it is such a lovely theory: mpossible to prove or disprove 😉
[2010/09/21 15:57]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, unless God is probabilitic Herself
[2010/09/21 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: don’t get me started on determinism!
[2010/09/21 15:57]  JerryDon Lane: And made the inventor of the many words theory the laughing stock of science
[2010/09/21 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Lem Skall: blasphemy, if there is a god it’s a He
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Ataraxia Azemus: Huge tangent. But. Occam’s razor is a weird thing to invoke in science, actually
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, if a Creator is outside of time, Lem, no it doesn’t
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: In most math and thinking and science we regard infinities showing up to be proof of incorrect analysis. The same is true of the multiple universe theories.
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: an omniscient, omnipresent, and all-powerful God which cares little about their creations might imply determinism indeed 🙂 But that’s just one type of god.
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Then he can ‘determine’ as he goes
[2010/09/21 15:58]  JerryDon Lane: God is intelligent quantum mechanics…..god is energy
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Serendipity Seraph: god is an ultimate AI that has mastered spacetime.
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is definitely a “multiple god” theory as well. Multiple universes, multiple gods… I see a pattern here emerging 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Serendipity Seraph: 🙂
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, not if the omni God is outside of Time; then he can create as She goes
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, that’s what the mormons say
[2010/09/21 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Because every version of quantum physics divides the whole fabric of spacetime into chunks. That limits the amount of protons you can pack into the visible universe, and limits the number of ways they can be arranged to something like 10^86^86 possible variations. But, eternal inflation posits an INFINITE NUMBER of universes so every possible recombination of matter/energy MUST exist an infinite numver of times. So, obviously, we all exist as infinite copiies and variations:)
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Lem Skall: doesn’t probabilistic imply a multiverse though?
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Ataraxia Azemus: Mormon theology would make a really fun comic book or something
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, oh, so that’s how Nietzche came into this
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Atari, lmao
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The mormons are actually a fascinating religion 🙂 And I mean it, they have a very intriguing thelology.
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh we so want that daddy god to look over our shoulder and make him make us our bitch, our genes are all screaming atavisms for his celestial semen, oh yes big bad daddy celestial ueber silverbang, subdue me, conquer me, yes YES YES.
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But seriously, they believe in multiple gods for multiple worlds
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: in what size chunk? depending on how many other chunks being just so? you are talking about a huge combination of events to get duplicates
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Rhiannon.
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: I meant to say – ‘silverback’.
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: Ataraxia: All theologies would make a fun comic book in my opinion.
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu should know this Gwyn, Remember ‘Gwyn’s Infinite twins’ from my essay collection?
[2010/09/21 15:59]  Naxos Mycron: God is a word that we have embodied and that it should be exosrsice of our body: the only way to do so is by killing him and risk our lives
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extropia — give it infinite time, and everything becomes possible 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Serendipity Seraph: no it does not
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Extie, i remember….
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Ataraxia Azemus: I’m not sure about Buddhism, Scarp…300 pages of a guy sitting under a tree? Yaaaaawwnn :p
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: perhaps you’re right
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what’s that about 300 pages?
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Serendipity Seraph: given the laws of physics of a space even in infinite time things that break those laws are not possible
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: You are all a bunch of reli-larpers who chose the alignment ‘evil’, i.e. you are playing the reli-larp game with the alignment ‘atheist’.
[2010/09/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha Seren
[2010/09/21 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: It is interesting that we are able as a culture to see ancient Greek and Roman Theology as ‘Myth’. Whereas question our own cultural theologies is seen as second nature and believable.
[2010/09/21 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right, Scarp! 😀
[2010/09/21 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Buy Sport Power Bracelets 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:01]  Lem Skall: oooh, laws of physics that break, I like that idea. Is that possible?
[2010/09/21 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure what you mean, Scarp.
[2010/09/21 16:01]  Lem Skall: what limits physics laws, what makes them LAWS?
[2010/09/21 16:01]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, not really Scarp, but we might intersect different realities, and that makes it semm that they break
[2010/09/21 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: the idea of infinite copies is what you have to accept if you believe the mainstream cosmology and physics picture is broadly correct. If you want to reject quantum physics, fine. If you want to reject chaotic or eternal inflation, fine. But if you accept them both you must accept the multiverse and copies.
[2010/09/21 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: of course we can’t say we know the truly unbreakable laws of physics in this spacetime just yet
[2010/09/21 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And why can’t physical laws change over time? 🙂 There is an interesting theory proposed by a young cosmologist that proposes that the constant sopeed of light varies with time and explains the inflation that way.-
[2010/09/21 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: physical constants apparently can. 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Mainstream cosmology is probably just an elaborate fantasy, though. It’s like in centuries past when learned men gathered to debate how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:02]  Lem Skall: maybe that is what the Big Bang was, a break in the laws of physics that changed them
[2010/09/21 16:02]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, they could, but if they are truly lawas, their change should be predictable
[2010/09/21 16:02]  Ataraxia Azemus: I’ve heard of that, Gwyn. And physical constants do change over huuuuuuuuge periods of time 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah, there is aperrently a teeny change in the alpha constant, which is directly related to the speed of light.
[2010/09/21 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: but then there are a set of metalaws governing the change..
[2010/09/21 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: or a deeper level allowing the change
[2010/09/21 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, exactly my point
[2010/09/21 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: now if you are in a sim then the laws are at the whim of the sim creator.
[2010/09/21 16:03]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, of course, assuming there isn’t a personalistic element gto it–i.e. a god
[2010/09/21 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: but you can’t change them arbitrarily without breaking the sim
[2010/09/21 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: What the *hell* does the speed of light have to do with the bullshit (excuses to any teaparty members from bringing up that term yet *again*) religions come up with ?
[2010/09/21 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Khannea
[2010/09/21 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: What in the world is Khannea going on about?
[2010/09/21 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: layoff the teaparty
[2010/09/21 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mymy, you’ve got a temper today 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes I would love it if people stop pestering the tea party.
[2010/09/21 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: many tea party people aren’t remotely religious anyway
[2010/09/21 16:04]  Lem Skall: elections time in the Us, Khan’s favorite republican must have lost to a tea partier
[2010/09/21 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, i haven’t heard any mention of the tea party
[2010/09/21 16:04]  Rhiannon Dragoone: but i did come in late
[2010/09/21 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I suppose that it’s just to show that when it comes to “come up with bullshit”, science is almost as good as religion 😉
[2010/09/21 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: lol lem. favorite republican? have to see that!
[2010/09/21 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I think Gwyn is suggesting the laws of physics differ from universe to universe, which would mean all universes are unique and so she need not deal with the prospect of herself existing as infinite copies.
[2010/09/21 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: The problem that most theologies can’t relate to is that of ‘not knowing’. Whereas that is our human state. Most theologies are a reaction of certainty to this state of ‘not knowing’. This comforts those who have not come to terms with ‘not knowing’ as the human condition.
[2010/09/21 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: One the one hand – monkeys and god ….<—————————————————————————> the speed of light
[2010/09/21 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: Kind of a conceptual discrepancy?
[2010/09/21 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dualism, pfft 😉
[2010/09/21 16:05]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Ex, yes, that’s what i meant by they can’t be broken, but there could be a breach in realities
[2010/09/21 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, I wasn’t suggesting anything, Extie 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: In some universes, my beloved Seren did not just go offline.
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Lem Skall: do multiple universes interfere with each other?
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And quite right, Scarp! 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Naxos, sorry, i don’t have room
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, depends on whom you’re listening to, Lem. Some would say that the possibility of “interference” would violate the whole concept.
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Naxos Mycron: i guess not Lem, but they maybe integrated
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, anyone here read Koongz “Out of the Corner of His Eye?”
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: See? The *constant* comments on the tea party, and at some point people just had enough.
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: No. inflation pushes them apart at greater-than-light speed so communication is impossible,
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Others use that to explain the ‘missing mass’ problem.
[2010/09/21 16:06]  Rhiannon Dragoone: About multiple quantum realities impacting on the hunt for a serial killer?
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha no Rhiannon; I never read that!
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Khannea, what is your problem?
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I read it a long time ago.
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Do you have something to say about my politics? Don’t be shy.
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: No?
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Lem Skall: Zo, you’re a tea partier?
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. Science, politics, religion…. can we discuss sports too? 😉
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, there wouldn’t be a missing mass problem if there were alternative universes; that’s why ppl are looking for gravions disappearing
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Leave zobi alone.
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Poor thing.
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh *now* I understand your early comment, Rhiannon!
[2010/09/21 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, I want to talk about renaming american footbal to handegg!
[2010/09/21 16:08]  Ataraxia Azemus: Gwyn no!
[2010/09/21 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I *see*!
[2010/09/21 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: She is going through a divorce.
[2010/09/21 16:08]  Archmage Atlantis: Mathematics solved this issue long ago……….any proof depends on the assumptions made at the beginning of the proof
[2010/09/21 16:08]  Ataraxia Azemus: Don’t make it a self fulfilling prophecy
[2010/09/21 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: I wonder if cosmology is always doomed to become a matter of faith eventually, because experimentally veryfying its predictions inevitably ends up being far too expensive and outlandish?
[2010/09/21 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww sorry to hear that, Zo 😦
[2010/09/21 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: /me grins
[2010/09/21 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well… depends, Extie… the Einsteinian cosmology, while it doesn’t explain everything, at least is a multiply validated theory…
[2010/09/21 16:09]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me smiles at Gwyneth
[2010/09/21 16:09]  Naxos Mycron: I know Einstein was very spinozian
[2010/09/21 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, but M-theory seems very very hard to validate experimentally.
[2010/09/21 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A good reason to drop it 😉
[2010/09/21 16:09]  Ataraxia Azemus: But us non-physicists have to take the validations of experts on faith
[2010/09/21 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. Not really, Ataraxia…
[2010/09/21 16:09]  Archmage Atlantis: Physicists, peshaw, priests of religion
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Rhiannon Dragoone: no, non-physicists can verify some of it
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Ataraxia Azemus: Unless we have a decade to burn on learning really complex math
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: No the only good reason to drop a theory is another theory that explains everything M-theory does and more besides.
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with Rhi
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Archmage Atlantis: priest of science
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh Extie
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if the theory cannot be validated? 😉
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is a dangerous path to thread 😉
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or even tread… sheesh
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Let me guess,,,that G8 mathematical object you have great belief in?
[2010/09/21 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: Extie, I must say that there is a LOT of ‘faith’ in cosmological multiple universes at the moment. I see the multiple universe theory as a crutch in the same way Religion is a crutch. The cosmologists can’t stand to not know how to resolve quantum mechanics with space time theory.
[2010/09/21 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, we can verify the assertions of the physicists, and that is our evidence
[2010/09/21 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp, same with the Anthropic Principle 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:11]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But faith enters into all science, as we take it as faith that induction and deduction are valid
[2010/09/21 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: I get this trick. Oh yes I do. You are all trying to make religion stuff sound more credible but sneaking in science stuff huh? Well that rhetorical triuckery is not gona work with me.
[2010/09/21 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Khannea!!!!
[2010/09/21 16:12]  Ataraxia Azemus: Like what, Rhia?
[2010/09/21 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me makes the sign of the cross at Kannea and prays for her soul
[2010/09/21 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me loves discussions between positivists and fundamentalists 😉
[2010/09/21 16:12]  Archmage Atlantis: K is cranky tonight….
[2010/09/21 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, semantically speaking the very idea of a multiverse is redundant. Because ‘universe’ literally means ‘everything that exists’ and so you cannot have more than one universe.
[2010/09/21 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: quite±
[2010/09/21 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me giggles at Gwyn
[2010/09/21 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: No I am not?
[2010/09/21 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: Look
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me looks
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Does this look like a cranky butt?
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: No huh?
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Naxos Mycron: i do think it is also tricky to bring scientific beliefs to discard religious one, Khannea, 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: no, it’s a most lovely one!
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: What cosmologists mean, though, is everything that exists beyond the light horizon of our region in the Universe.
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Ataraxia Azemus: /me squints
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Archmage Atlantis: Looks female, yuk
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Atari, not following; i think i gave the fundamental principles of induction and deduction as matters of faith
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Are you sure that’s what they mean, Extie? 😉
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes.
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Ataraxia Azemus: Oh, no, I mean like, which assertions can we verify?
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. We’re not reading the same books then!
[2010/09/21 16:13]  Ataraxia Azemus: Like, personally
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: See Rhiannon, Faith does NOT enter into science. Inductive logic is not faith. This is a misconception. Those who define faith among religious scholars would admit as much. Even they say that faith is a suspension of evidential logic.
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Atari, oh; well, the assertions of physicists that work, for instance
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Naxos Mycron: thats definitive, Gwy
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: We can take and reproduce certain experiments in our own home
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Naxos Mycron: lol
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would agree with Scarp on that; I’m interested in hearing Rhiannon’s answer 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Like work with pendulums.
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And we can verify enough that we can trust the rest
[2010/09/21 16:14]  Ataraxia Azemus: But, like, any really big (or really small) cosmological claim isn’t something I can verify in my kitchen…is it?
[2010/09/21 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, I see your point, Ataraxia 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: Science isn’t only reproducible experiment, it is also an EXPLANATION that is subject to logical analysis.
[2010/09/21 16:15]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, the external world, the principle of induction, the idea of universal and necessar laws are all beyond science itself; they are the presuppositions of science
[2010/09/21 16:15]  Naxos Mycron: i think that we should take turns and develope our pov before any massive discussion lol
[2010/09/21 16:15]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Therefore, they are matters of faith
[2010/09/21 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s why I’m personally a bit reluctant to accept blidningly any ‘new’ cosomological theory that sort of ends with “oh, and don’t bother to devise an experiment to validate this theory, because I can prove that none such experiment is possible”
[2010/09/21 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: No no no no… you have it all wrong. Look. I make up something. Listen ‘Here in my hand is the kingdom of Shushmipuupl, and it’s a happy people’. That’s religion. It’s make up. You can polish that up by using fancy up town lawyery words like ‘inductive’ and ‘viaduct’ but it’s still faerietales.
[2010/09/21 16:16]  Ataraxia Azemus: I like science that can be reproduced, or easily explained, but a lot of physics seems really esoteric to me
[2010/09/21 16:16]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol Gwyn
[2010/09/21 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: If it’s not testable, it’s not really science.
[2010/09/21 16:16]  Archmage Atlantis: Most of the foundations of scientific theory was determined with equipment more primitive than in a modern kitchen
[2010/09/21 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s my theory too, Zo 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and I can’t test it!)
[2010/09/21 16:16]  Ataraxia Azemus: Khannea, it’s only religion if it means something to someone :p
[2010/09/21 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: So you do not agree with Paul Dirac who claimed beauty in one’s equations was more important than having the theory fit experimental data?
[2010/09/21 16:16]  Naxos Mycron: if it is not science, is not valid, Zobied?
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Naxos Mycron: o.O
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: Zobeid, that is not all of science, but part of it.
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I see your argument, Rhiannon. There are assumptions for science.
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Lem Skall: how do you test 1+1=2?
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Peano’s.
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: You cannot.
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Naxos Mycron: thats a good one Lem
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, you don’t test it, but it is subject to proof
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Ataraxia Azemus: That’s what religion is. Very, VERY broadly. A set of stories and philosophies that frame a person’s group or community in a meaningful way.
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: INductive logic is as much a part of science as deductive logic.
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Speculation has its place in science. But the press gives way too much attention to speculation.
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyneth, exactly
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And i don’t use ‘faith’ in the modern sense meaning unsupported, blind acceptance
[2010/09/21 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: And speculation is only useful if it leads to something more tangible.
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh then, let me invoke Harry potter, the religion of Yedi, the vulcan academy of Leeds and the Tolkien Society? Still total fabricated uhhhh what was that word again?
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Ataraxia Azemus: Or fun
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: But more in the medieval sense where there’s a noetic quality to it
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Lem Skall: “it is subject to proof” is different from saying “it is proven”
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: All together now>?
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: BULLSHIT?
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Lem Skall: HOLY SHIT!!!
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Holy Bullshit!
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, true
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Archmage Atlantis: Actually, in Base 2, 1 + 1 =10
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, fiction is not meant to replace reality. It’s all very shocking.
[2010/09/21 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: The most complex book ever written (Principia Mathematica by Bertrand Russel) tried to prove absolutely that 1+1 does equal 2, but all such constructs fall fol of Godel.
[2010/09/21 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
[2010/09/21 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: The key point of science is a stance of ‘ I don’t know, but I have a best guess based on evidence and logic’ AND ‘I will change my best guess whenever it doesn’ fit with evidence and/or logic’.
[2010/09/21 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me has this vague notion that Group Theory, which was devised after Russel wrote his seminal work, is supposed to have absolkutely proven that 1+1 =2
[2010/09/21 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I might be wrong.
[2010/09/21 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Never trust ‘factoids’ that you cannot prove yourself hehe
[2010/09/21 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: It is STAGGERINGLY complex. He actually takes one and a half volumes before he begins to try and proove one plus one equals 2!
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: 1 + 1 = 2 is easily testable. You can do it with a bowl and a couple of marbles.
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, well, it has,but Godel did prove that some parts of math are subject to decisions
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Scarp Godenot: The key point of Religion is ‘ I know, and here is what I know and how it never changes regardless of any evidence to the contrary’.
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Scarp, but logic, deduction, induction, etc. are the tools — the building blocks — of science.
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Archmage Atlantis: Exactly correct, Scarp
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: zobeid, well, not really; there is a conceptual element to that
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: /me has a look hmmmm “noetic”……..…&#8230;.. let me guess… ‘it involves bongs’ ?
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Ataraxia Azemus: No, not really
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Lem Skall: Zo, that only proves it fo 1 marble + 1 marble = 2 marbles
[2010/09/21 16:20]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, well, that’s true of dogmatic religions; but there is Fromm’s notion of authoritarian vs humanistic relgions
[2010/09/21 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And ur statement would only be true of authoritarian religions
[2010/09/21 16:21]  Ataraxia Azemus: Some religions are into prosellytizing, but the thread tying them together is telling stories that make people’s lives meaningful in some way
[2010/09/21 16:21]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, exactly for 1 + 1 = 2, we would need a set of rules that yield necessary and universl results
[2010/09/21 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: 1+1=2 done with marbles is just a visual representation of a predefined relationship where the definitions are pre determined.
[2010/09/21 16:22]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, yes
[2010/09/21 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Noetics…… “the study of mind and intuition, and its relationship with the divine intellect”…….”Psychokinesis, more often called telekinesis, is concerned with the direct influence of mind on matter.”…. uhhh ‘there are not the droids you are looking for?’
[2010/09/21 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Ataraxia Azemus: It’s hard to articulate–the root of religions is making the experience of experience more coherent
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Archmage Atlantis: 1 fertile man + 1 fertile woman = 3 or more individuals in a family
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: This is why I want nothing to do with philosophy. It’s true purpose is not to illuminate, but to obfuscate.
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Ataraxia Azemus: Which is a totally separate thing from exploring and understanding the world as it is
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, that is not the sense of noesis that i ws referring to, but i ‘v done similar things to that, as well
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Guess what, when I studied Metaphysics and said it was just a big fat construct to sell books they could only uhmm uhmmm uhmmm.
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gosh, and I always thought that the purpose of religion was to tell us how to be more happy 😉
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is naïve
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: NO telekenisis is moving objects with the mind. ‘these are not the droids you are looking for’ is more like planting a false memory or idea into a mind.
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Noetic in the sense of a direct, maybe intuitive, knowledge of reality
[2010/09/21 16:23]  Naxos Mycron: what philosophy are you talking about Zobeid? Hegel´s LOL
[2010/09/21 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Pretty near all of it, as far as I’ve seen.
[2010/09/21 16:24]  Lem Skall: lol, SW reference
[2010/09/21 16:24]  Naxos Mycron: you have not seen that far, i guess
[2010/09/21 16:24]  Archmage Atlantis: I used to think that also Zo
[2010/09/21 16:24]  Ataraxia Azemus: I don’t think that one has a name, Gwyn, but it’s my favorite of the three 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think you’re right to a degree, Zo 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: “I shall prove that it is impossible to know anything! Then I’ll be hailed as the wisest philosopher!”
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Ataraxia — I’ll remain silent this time 😉
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Ataraxia Azemus: /me waves
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Zo, lol
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: Anti-Socratism 😉
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that not Socratic wisdom? To know you do not really know anything?
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Archmage Atlantis: In one of Rhi’s meetings, we discussed the purpose of philosophy
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: I think philosophy does a great job of defining all of the concepts that we deal with in regards to our existence and cultural place. Philosophy takes nothing for granted and thinks through all possibilities. It is great for students to go through these mental excercises in order to underatand their existence and their world. That is my opinion. I suggest reading Nietzche to start with…. ha ha
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, what we cannot speak of we will pass over in silence
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Rhi
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Archmage Atlantis: Dang, you’re good Scarp
[2010/09/21 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: now I’m ashamed of myself!
[2010/09/21 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: no no Thinkers say ‘what we cannot speak of we will group discuss over and over again’.
[2010/09/21 16:26]  Rhiannon Dragoone: awww, gwyneth
[2010/09/21 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: What I am jocularly suggesting is that metaphysics is an IMMENSELY elaborate speculation what might be in a mysterious looking mahoganoy box in the corner of the library.
[2010/09/21 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie — whew, I’m saved 😉
[2010/09/21 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: ha ha Extie, so true
[2010/09/21 16:26]  Naxos Mycron: some philosophoes are framed with institutional scholastics purpoises, but not all. there are philosophies that had only respondeed to life as the ‘frame’
[2010/09/21 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: eh?
[2010/09/21 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not follow you.
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Naxos, porpoises? Or purposes?
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Naxos Mycron: yeah
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Naxos Mycron: sorry
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and some philosophies just have simple aims in life (‘be happy’!) and describe a method to do just that, and drop all the argumentation 😉
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Naxos Mycron: typoing
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Ataraxia Azemus: Vonnegut is my favorite philosopher
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: While science is opening the box and looking inside.
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: he’s cool 🙂 or was!
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Ataraxia Azemus: Even if he went out an angry chain smoker :T
[2010/09/21 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn is my favourite philpsopher.
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is a peaceful chain smoker 😉
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Lem Skall: Gwyn’s cat is my favorite philosopher
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie! hardly!
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Ataraxia Azemus: That’s the way to be 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Lem 🙂 My cat has simple needs 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: There is as much to be learned about living from Lao Tzu as there is from Sartre. I think these ideas are very valuable to include in your head in order to lead an interesting life.
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sleep, get petted, eat. Sleep.
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Throw up on the carpet.
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or even a meaningful one, Scarp 😉
[2010/09/21 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, that too, Zo, but my cat gets immensely embarassed afterwards 😉
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp; i agree; we should learn from every philosopher
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And clean up after our cats
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL !
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why do cats always pop up in philosophy and science? 😉
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: /me giggles a Gwyneth
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: Speaking of which, I need to clean my cat box…..
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Because of their smiles
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Ataraxia Azemus: They’re inquisitive animals :p
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Scarp, yes, that is really important
[2010/09/21 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is it Schroedinger’s fault ?
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Iggy!
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Archmage Atlantis: That part gets more difficult after they reach 16 or so (cat clean up I mean)
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Iggy Rasa: hello
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, no, Lewis Carroll
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha.
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: As far as I know, a cat features in only one philosophical/scientific thought experiment.
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the Egyptians where right when they worshipped cats as gods.
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Iggy.
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: So is Thinkers group more cat oriented or dog oriented? This is an interesting question…. ha ha
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yes, but then what about the thoth creatures? hmmm?
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Iggy
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, and look what mess that experiment caused, Extie!
[2010/09/21 16:30]  Archmage Atlantis: Oh, oh, oh……I saw a YouTube of a guy herding cats, in rl
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Grrrr
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Naxos Mycron: lol scarp
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Lem Skall: are we getting injury time because Extie crashed?
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope so.
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Lem, she crashed?
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, no!
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Lem Skall: yeah, at the start of the meeting
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Scarp Godenot: I’m guessing it is Extie poem time.
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Dog logic: The humans pet me, feed me, care for me. . . They must be gods!
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: You are not supposed to look! That collapses the wave function and makes the cat unambigiously dead!
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Adele!
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Cat logic: The humans pet me, feed me, care for me. . . I must be a god!
[2010/09/21 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, Zo 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hehe Zobe
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: While cats think: Humans pet me, feed me, care for me. I must be god!
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Archmage Atlantis: Do you see any blind followers in this sim, eh…..all cats, everyone…..or worse
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Gwyn, well, that is why God is a Cat
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meow to that!
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: This hour always zooms by so fast for me. I love it.
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, this was incredible
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe agreed, Scarp…. it seems like it’s just a few minutes. See, time is not absolute 🙂
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: cats are lazy socialistic bastards
[2010/09/21 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually, an interesting point that is often not understood is this: The laws underlying quantum physics are completely deterministic. It is only the results of measurements that must be descrbed probiblistically.
[2010/09/21 16:33]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, i can’t put this on my groups, so can someone send notices through my group?
[2010/09/21 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s always nice to get reminded of that, Extie 🙂 I saw a physicis teacher get furious when one of his students forgot that….
[2010/09/21 16:33]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea markets her discussions through mine
[2010/09/21 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: The catch there, Extie, is that almost any kind of interaction between particles counts as a “measurement”. :/
[2010/09/21 16:33]  Lem Skall: Rhi, it’s always Tuesdays at 3:30
[2010/09/21 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least under one school of thought, Zo
[2010/09/21 16:34]  Rhiannon Dragoone: And here, Lem?
[2010/09/21 16:34]  Lem Skall: yes, here
[2010/09/21 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, it’s the one getting rid of the Anthropic Principle….
[2010/09/21 16:34]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yup
[2010/09/21 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: anyway, in THIS part of the multiverse my time is up! Might not be for other less strict Extie’s in parallell universes, who can say? NEXT WEEK…’WHAT IS IN A NAME?’
[2010/09/21 16:34]  Scarp Godenot: Just join the group Rhi
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