Thinkers Sep 14 2010: Emerald Debacle.

Rigrun Torok and Judith Underwood at Thinkers.

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2010/09/14 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you :
[2010/09/14 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:32]  Lem Skall: good to see you
[2010/09/14 15:32]  jesz Murakami: i think so Lem!! : )
[2010/09/14 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: This week, the topic is…THE EMERALD DEBACLE…
[2010/09/14 15:33]  Judith Underwood: huzzah
[2010/09/14 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: /me remembers the immortal words of Bud the Repo Man. “You’re not a commie, are you? You better not be! I don’t let commies in my car.”
[2010/09/14 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: perfect start to emerald debate – phoenix crash
[2010/09/14 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: It was once the darling of the third party viewers, but after an alleged denial of service attack, Emerald is now banned from connecting to the SL grid. What lessons can we learn from the rise and fall of Emerald?
[2010/09/14 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: /me quotes, “And no Christians either!”
[2010/09/14 15:33]  Judith Underwood: absolute power corrupts absolutely
[2010/09/14 15:33]  Archmage Atlantis: Exite, would you prefer silence until you finish your opening remarks?
[2010/09/14 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Romancing the Stone”,
[2010/09/14 15:33]  jesz Murakami: yes phoenix crashes alot
[2010/09/14 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me likes emeralds
[2010/09/14 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: No, this rabble is not to be silenced;)
[2010/09/14 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lesson #1 – be honest
[2010/09/14 15:34]  Archmage Atlantis: *grins* – never been alllowed in the rabble before 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW, all newcomers note you may express an on-topic comment at any time.
[2010/09/14 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: gah
[2010/09/14 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: take that off me
[2010/09/14 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Hey, getting a little crowded over here. 😛
[2010/09/14 15:35]  Lem Skall: I think it raised some serious questions about trust and anonymity, btw, not the first time, remember the financial indtitutions?
[2010/09/14 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: Hello Sipples
[2010/09/14 15:35]  yuhkhunt Acacia: hey guys
[2010/09/14 15:35]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi hi
[2010/09/14 15:35]  Huremeister Cyberschreiber: Do E USES VOICE PLEASE?
[2010/09/14 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😛
[2010/09/14 15:35]  Serendipity Seraph: hey khannea, hey darling, hey arisia, gwyn, zoe, all!
[2010/09/14 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: No we do not.
[2010/09/14 15:36]  Huremeister Cyberschreiber: Is this class?
[2010/09/14 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Seren)
[2010/09/14 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, it’s not, Huremeister.
[2010/09/14 15:36]  Ataraxia Azemus: It’s a discussion.
[2010/09/14 15:36]  Ataraxia Azemus: We shout things and Extropia writes a poem.
[2010/09/14 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Congrats to Rigrun and Judith, chosesn as this week’s transcript cover stars.
[2010/09/14 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: congrats indeed 😀
[2010/09/14 15:37]  Judith Underwood: what what is that
[2010/09/14 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, when I upload a copy of the transcript I include a picture of a participant. This week it is you two.
[2010/09/14 15:37]  Shorahmin Femto: hope trhat was a yawn
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Archmage Atlantis: What is a “transcript cover star”, and who makes that determination
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Judith Underwood: ohhhhhhh
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that actually there are a lot of lessons learned here…
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Judith Underwood: excellent
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Archmage Atlantis: Oh
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: *Leans over and kisses her darling Seren*
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Shorahmin Femto: get a room?
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Can someone elaborate on the whole DoS thing? Because I was never really clear on it.
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: it means your name will be marked with pink in the logs. With hears. And unicorns.
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Serendipity Seraph: *melts into the kiss*
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Judith Underwood: hears
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: one is the old “you can fool some people during all of the time, or all people for some time, but not all people all the time”
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: hearts*
[2010/09/14 15:38]  Judith Underwood: i don’t want no hears
[2010/09/14 15:39]  Judith Underwood: hearts ok
[2010/09/14 15:39]  Ataraxia Azemus: I want a unicorn…
[2010/09/14 15:39]  Scarp Godenot: I think the whole Emerald debacle was an exercise in group hysteria. An ever escalating spiral of self righteousness.
[2010/09/14 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zob, there were probably many, but the only one that was *caught* was simply having 32 links to a competing Sl viewer’s website on Emerald’s login page.
[2010/09/14 15:39]  Judith Underwood: well to me i’m glad because it’s shaken up everyone
[2010/09/14 15:39]  Shorahmin Femto: a DOS attack floods a server with many false short requests to cause it to crash
[2010/09/14 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Could you, like, summarise breifly, Jenaro?
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me posted a summary ;(
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Ok give me a three sentence analysis of the emerald debate, because wtf? I have NO idea? Did they try hacking the pentagon?
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: yes but your summaries rival War And Piece for wordcount, Gwyn;)
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No yet 🙂 — unless they used Emerald over there 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Archmage Atlantis: Pls yes Jenaro
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really. Extie, Tolstoi beats me 😉
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: /me still thinks that LL is out to shut down major competing clients
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh yes. . . that page very informative. 😛
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naah Seren
[2010/09/14 15:40]  jesz Murakami: the phoenix burns up again!!
[2010/09/14 15:40]  Judith Underwood: seren me too
[2010/09/14 15:41]  Judith Underwood: still phoenix is the best thing i’ve EVER seen
[2010/09/14 15:41]  Scarp Godenot: The idea that one has to know the names of those who write their software code is ludicrous. No software company does that.
[2010/09/14 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: what do you use instead of Emerald or SL viewer?
[2010/09/14 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: Kirsten?
[2010/09/14 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Emerald was actually special among all other TPVs… they had regular weekly meetings with LL’s developer team. In private.
[2010/09/14 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: ddos attack is not only breaking up LL’s ToS, if not for it’s for the scale of thing (and the fact that it didn’t really work out for them) it’s criminal
[2010/09/14 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No other team had the same privileges with LL. So, well, they abused trust and it backfired…
[2010/09/14 15:41]  Ataraxia Azemus: Imprudence?
[2010/09/14 15:41]  Lem Skall: Scarp, but you do know the company’s name and address and they are a legal entity
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: I see the self righteousness continues here.
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Ivy. And, as said, this was not the first time. It was just the first time they were *caught*
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Judith Underwood: can LL buy phoenix?>
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: but what did they do?
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: how you buy that which has no price?
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me loves Imprudence, but that’s because the lead developer worked for me for a couple of years and I trust her ore than my own mother 😉
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Lem Skall: yes, I AM RIGHT
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Judith Underwood: i know
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: Extie: bottom line: nobody was harmed.
[2010/09/14 15:42]  Judith Underwood: but what a thought
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Lem Skall: TRUST was harmed
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably not, judith, unless they create a company.
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Judith Underwood: wish they would
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Judith Underwood: because it’s brilliant
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Ataraxia Azemus: Emerald embedded a tiny tiny browser window in the login screen to pull off a sneaky DDOS using their own userbase.
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Ataraxia Azemus: Good to know, Gwyn 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Judith Underwood: so that’s how they did it
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Lem Skall: Scarp, I shoot a gun at you but miss, it’s all ok because no one was harmed
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, simple things work best, Judith 😀
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Ataraxia Azemus: But yeah, that’s kinda rude. Among other things.
[2010/09/14 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Among other things indeed.
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: But something must have happened. What? Did they firebomb LL? Hack into the Pentagon? Close down the grid? Kidnap Philip? What?
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Judith Underwood: so many wonderful things we want and need
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: someone on the team did that. bad idea. not enough checks internally. but enough to ban it unless they jump through an awful lot of hoops?
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Judith Underwood: phoenix has a lot
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Commiting a crime is reason enough, Extie 😉
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: simple things indeed, attack a website with http requests via built in webkit, couldn’t be easier
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: What happened was a storm or rumour and innuendo that spiraled upward into hysteria.
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Archmage Atlantis: Have there ever been any DoS attacks through the official LL viewers? If so, that does point to some ulterior motive in the decision.
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Seren — it’s really about how far you allow things to continue….
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Judith Underwood: exactly scarp
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: crimes are so many things these days, some of them pretty insignificant.
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Archmage: unknown.
[2010/09/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Seren
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: But what, specifically, was the crime? I assume we are not in some Kafkaesque story here where the crime is unspecified?
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Lem Skall: Scarp, there were facts and Emerald people even admitted
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Judith Underwood: somebody made a formal complaint with an example – they had to do something
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, I’m against victimless crimes, but this wasn’t victimless
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the point is, if the Emerald team had done anything criminal before, they were never caught. This time they were. So….
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, lem and the facts were minor.
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia: DDoS *is* a crime in most countries.
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: caught doing what?
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: so is spitting on the sidewalk Gwyn
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Doing a distributed denial of service!
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Denial of Service…
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Lem Skall: no, Scarp, embedding stuff like that in your code is not minor
[2010/09/14 15:45]  Judith Underwood: but wasn’t this to small to be a DDos?
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not in my country, Scarp; it’s just a minor demeanor
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: You mean, they stopped people using SL?
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: DDoS is not about size lol
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Serendipity Seraph: links on login of their viewer to a competitor caused flood of hits on competitors servers
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Lem Skall: a DDOS is wrong, small or big
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Judith Underwood: for criminal purposes i mean
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s a question of principle.
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: OK thanks Seren.
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Err. . . That link that was posted a while ago described exactly what they did, Extie. Skim it. 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: No, they attacked a website using their userbase’s bandwidth without their knowledge
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: So Gwyn, what was the upshot and damage of the horrible ddos? Hmmmmmm I’ll tell you: it was a prank and it ended quickly and with an apology. There was little harm.
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: Weeee chat lag
[2010/09/14 15:46]  Lem Skall: it’s not criminal, they are not sued and imprisoned, they are just banned from SL, now where is the exaggerated reaction?
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp, that’s really for a judge to, well, judge
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shrugs*
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: teh guy that was attacked,
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wouldn’t file charges anyway
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scrap: the damage was that they used the user base for that
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Ataraxia Azemus: It was a prank, but serious enough to cause concern.
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: It’s for any rational person to judge Gwyn, just like anything else. Context is all.
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: since he actually developed an illegal viewer 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Ataraxia Azemus: Right
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: they used a popular login for it. could have been anything. happened to be emerald client.
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: It doesn’t sound like a “prank” to me.
[2010/09/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I might be more sensitive than you on this, Scarp, because among my many jobs on of them is running security scans for corporations 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: The person who did it called it a prank. And as I recall the details, it was actually funny.
[2010/09/14 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the principle is simple: you commit a crime, you get banned first, sued later. If you get imprisioned or not, it’s for the judge to tell
[2010/09/14 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, the best gameskeepers are ex poachers.
[2010/09/14 15:48]  Serendipity Seraph: I think it was a prank in sense that only one or two people were behind it, not team decision.
[2010/09/14 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: What was the funny part?
[2010/09/14 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, I missed the “fun” part too.
[2010/09/14 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: that isn’t enough, gwyn. millions of people are out of their favorite viewer. that is a lot of blowback
[2010/09/14 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: Well, this is all detailed in the thousand blogs out there. I don’t want to dredge up the details. Suffice it to say, even after this person was removed from the team the hysteria continued.
[2010/09/14 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s like running to a store with a knife telling the cashier to give you all the money, then slipping out on the floor, breaking your leg, and calling it a prank to clear your name, very very very fishy explanation
[2010/09/14 15:49]  Shorahmin Femto: it’s the hacker mentality, when I do it it’s funny because I’m clever
[2010/09/14 15:49]  Archmage Atlantis: Well, this is not a free country, it is an LL fiefdom……so they really didn’t have to give any reason to ban any and all 3rd party viewers……if they are willing to accept the impact on the user base.
[2010/09/14 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: hundreds of thousands, whatever. not small
[2010/09/14 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Seren — that’s the same thing as imprisioning a drug warlord and releasing it because millions have been deprived of their daily fix 😉
[2010/09/14 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *him
[2010/09/14 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that a fair analogy?
[2010/09/14 15:50]  Serendipity Seraph: no it is not gwyn. very very poor analogy
[2010/09/14 15:50]  Ataraxia Azemus: Shorahmin has it :p
[2010/09/14 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: Fascinating analysis
[2010/09/14 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shrugs* Spoken like a real addict 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:50]  Judith Underwood: i had a melt down meself
[2010/09/14 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: Bottom line a good percentage of SL regulars were deprived of their favorite viewer AFTER ALL problems were fixed and agreed to.
[2010/09/14 15:50]  Judith Underwood: but phoenix saved the day
[2010/09/14 15:50]  Serendipity Seraph: oooh. a bit testier than usual, dear? 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’m not a moral relitivist, Seren.
[2010/09/14 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: even a properly spelled one 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: So do you think this ban was overkill, Scarp?
[2010/09/14 15:51]  jesz Murakami: if it wasnt so crashy ,judith
[2010/09/14 15:51]  Lem Skall: Scarp, it was a huge breach of TRUST and they didn’t remedy THAT
[2010/09/14 15:51]  Ataraxia Azemus: But…yeah. Trust.
[2010/09/14 15:51]  Judith Underwood: i can put up with that for all the superb other stuff it has and they will fix it
[2010/09/14 15:51]  Shorahmin Femto: agreeed Lem
[2010/09/14 15:51]  Judith Underwood: but i crash with all of them
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: They certainly did that Lem, they jumped through every single hoop and THEN new conditions that were impossible were imposed on them at the very end.
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, well, Judith, that’s the whole issue here… “oh I’m fine in using something illegal, so long as it provides me with all I wish”
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[2010/09/14 15:52]  jesz Murakami: i never did with emeral
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Lem Skall: well, it’s between you crashing or that website crashing
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Serendipity Seraph: I think it woulh have been possible to punish the wrong doer, fix the hole that allowed it happen and keep the viewer.
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Judith Underwood: hmmm rather cold but stunningly correct
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What do you mean, Scarp? “Impossible”? Getting rid of the crackers in the team? Why is that “impossible”?
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, emergence saved the day even earlier. From technical PoV the requirements (the list of which emerald team didn’t want to publish till the end) were simple enough that one man was able to make them, and from all you can read on the web, emerald strangulated itself in it’s own ego
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Ataraxia Azemus: Emerald just got crashier and crashier for me until I switched to Imprudence, so now I get to be smug and superior about all this 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: I seem to recall part of the problem was LL insisited on several key members losing their jobs. And they were so key emerald could not function without them.
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Judith Underwood: true extie
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Lem Skall: Scarp, what were the impossible conditions set at the end?
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: They already got rid of the people on the team that had fucked up Gwyn. LL decided to get rid of people they didn’t like at the very end.
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Seren — Emerald’s code is too complex. The problem has been thoroughly explained by LordGregGreg: he has been with the team for ages and never even remotely suspected about all the security holes in Emerald
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And he’s not the only one saying pretty much the same.
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Serendipity Seraph: Imprudence isn’t nearly as good or wasn’t last time I used it.
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not even LL knows all the code in their own viewer
[2010/09/14 15:53]  jesz Murakami: guess i shud try a few others –unless LL doin the crashs
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Judith Underwood: wow
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, not as good — just safe
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Lem Skall: Extie, those are not “jobs” and they deserved losing them anyway
[2010/09/14 15:53]  Serendipity Seraph: yes, that should not have been part of the requirements
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: why are they not jobs?
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why not?
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Lem Skall: Scarp, they asked people to be kicked out because they knew about the problem and they didn’t do anything about it
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: Phoenix team is pretty much emerald team without those people LL wanted out (plus few new people) and it seems they work just fine together, so I don’t see how that was a problem
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, it’s not as if they didn’t get fair warning
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Ataraxia Azemus: It depends on what counts for good. I like stability and super quick rezzing more than a fancier radar :p
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: security holes are not easy to find and viewers are pretty complex
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Ivy
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: You can still log into OSGrid with Emerald, I assume. 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: That just isn’t true Lem
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Lem Skall: Extie, they are not paid, they do not have a contract
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Lem Skall: Scarp, it is true
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: OK
[2010/09/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, Phoenix is an excellent example taht the “requirements” by LL were not only reasonable, but possible!
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Is what Zoe assumes correct?
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Serendipity Seraph: radar is not a hard or very heavy feature tho.
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: indeed
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Lem Skall: and it is not a company either
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: Did you go and listen to the New Emerald people for two hours answer every single conceivable question thrown at them? I did.
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Judith Underwood: i did too scarp
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Judith Underwood: and rig
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: And they answered them all
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: what was emarald, then? A hobby?
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Emerald? I have no idea. Modular Systems was a business.
[2010/09/14 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: Sometimes in a team the most reasonable requests feel like mountainous ultimatums and pure stubborn inertia makes them almost impossible to conform to.
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Hmmm. . . Apparently OSGrid is also rejecting Emerald!
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Frederick Hansome: How would you guys rate Emergence and Imprudence viewers?
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unregistered, but still a business. They made a few thousands of dollars per month in ads.
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Imprudence is about safety 😉
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Emergence so far is like a lagless emerald
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Serendipity Seraph: Emerald didn’t work until recently on osgrid afaik
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Judith Underwood: they are both ok fred but i love the bells and whistles
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: have you ever wondered what created that lag, Khannea?;)
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Scarp Godenot: Emerald was a group of committed people who wanted to make a better browser for SL. And most of them have joined other browser teams. These are people who work for FREE to help other people. That is what ALL freeware developers do. It is a tradition as old as programming.
[2010/09/14 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Impurdence doesn’t have the “Dark” skin, therefore it’s not an option 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp, I agree with 90% of that 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … add it, ivy 😉
[2010/09/14 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: what 10% do you disagree with?
[2010/09/14 15:57]  jesz Murakami: dark skin??
[2010/09/14 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That it applies to ALL people in Modular Systems
[2010/09/14 15:57]  Lem Skall: Scarp, thEmerald was a group of immature, unprofessional people too
[2010/09/14 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah Lem. Just a few were immature and unprofessional.
[2010/09/14 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, dark skin, I want my viewer to be nigger!
[2010/09/14 15:57]  Lem Skall: most of them
[2010/09/14 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me chuckles
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Lem Skall: even Arabella
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, Gwyn you are right about that just a few. Less than 5
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Wow
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Lem Skall: oh the drama
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Scarp
[2010/09/14 15:58]  jesz Murakami: u mean like shitty vwr 2
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, I think just 3 — the ones that LL wanted out 😉 hehe
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Judith Underwood: sings loudly: drama drama drama makes the world go around
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Running SL2 and Impudence at the same time really lags!
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Zo!
[2010/09/14 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Iike viewer 2 (dodges the rocks thrown by the angry mob).
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Judith Underwood: ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it was the drama that attracted people *to* Emerald.
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Judith Underwood: no you don’t extie
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: /me needs more CPU cores. . .
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I do.
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Lem Skall: yeah, jiggling breasts
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was not really drama — more like propaganda 😉
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Judith Underwood: NO
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Judith Underwood: somebody help her
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Lem – most of the TPVs have them too 😉
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: I don’t know if people realize it or not but the Phoenix group for example there are like over 25 people working on it.
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Judith Underwood: i think they all do gwyn
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I thought it was dynamic shadows that attracted people to Emerald.
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think so too, Judith 🙂
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Judith Underwood: whispers: it’s brilliant and they work so fast
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Judith Underwood: !!
[2010/09/14 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: someone likes Viewer2? Grab the torches and pitchforks!
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like it, ivy 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: For good graphics FFS please go to Kirsten S20, wayyyyyyyyy better
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then again, I’m also part of the minority that likes weird things, like Macs… 😉
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Judith Underwood: dinna want graphics wants bells and whistles
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can’t manage 2.0 with all the bloat it has in the UI
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it was way more than that, Extie
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: See? Gwyn likes it. And what opinion matters more than Gwyn’s?MINE! And I like it to. So that is that.
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Lem Skall: Scarp, what is your point? that if they do it for free they are exemted from honesty?
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Lem Skall: exempted*
[2010/09/14 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bingo, Lem
[2010/09/14 16:01]  Archmage Atlantis: When are you giving classes in v2, Gwyn……I’d take them….I have had rotten luck with v2.
[2010/09/14 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: The ONLY thing that attracted people to Emerald as users were the tools that were not available on other browsers. Hopfully we will see these tools on the LL browsers someday.
[2010/09/14 16:01]  Serendipity Seraph: /me hugs her mac and growls protectively
[2010/09/14 16:01]  Judith Underwood: hopes blue mars is ready before have to go to viewer 2
[2010/09/14 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably not, Scarp, but you’re going to see them on Phoenix and Imprudence 😉
[2010/09/14 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: why would you ever have to go to viewer 2?
[2010/09/14 16:01]  Judith Underwood: ha
[2010/09/14 16:01]  Judith Underwood: i say
[2010/09/14 16:02]  jesz Murakami: twice in less than hr!!
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Judith Underwood: that of course is the ultimate goal
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: I hope Blue Mars will be the most breathtaking Crysis Engine plugin for SL, oh around 2015.
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: LL should do what web browsers do these days – plugins
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they’re working on it, Ivy
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: viewer 2 isn’t that bad.
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: No seriously. They are not going to ban every third-party viewer, are they?
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s the next thing on the viewer 2 after meshes.
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, Extie
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: viewer 2 isn’t that good neither.
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … so long as they behave
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mind you…
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Scarp Godenot: Blue Mars, I don’t think quite has the right idea, so I don’t think it will survive. Blue Mars is suited to building games, but because the basic users have no building or modifying tools, Blue Mars is very limited for your average SL regular.
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Judith Underwood: they weren’t going tyo merge the teen grid too were they
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: I like most of the things about 2.0, but I can’t stand the UI
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … Emerald was not the first TPV banned
[2010/09/14 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: So why should anyone be compelled to use viewer 2?
[2010/09/14 16:03]  Judith Underwood: i believe nothing
[2010/09/14 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: media on prim brings me back to it
[2010/09/14 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The UI is the least important part of Viewer 2
[2010/09/14 16:03]  Judith Underwood: except in lurve
[2010/09/14 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Blue Mars is also struggling with their ties to Windows at a time when Mac usage is surging.
[2010/09/14 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m looking forward to Imprudence 1.5, which will be viewer 2-based but NOT use its UI.
[2010/09/14 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: No of course not. Blue Mars is ridiculous. I logged into it last weekend, it is like a massacre of nad design decisions
[2010/09/14 16:03]  Judith Underwood: you can view it on a prim with imprudence and phoenix already
[2010/09/14 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: it might be the least important part of the viewer, but it’s the part that breaks the experience the most Gwyn
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blue Mars, mmmh. I wonder how many years after they’ve exhausted their funding they’ll last.
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Blue Mars looks great on the promotional vids…
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know, Ivy. Judge things by appearances 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: to quote “to the user, interface is the product”
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Judith Underwood: it does but i was sooooooo disappointed
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: I use LL browser 2.1.1 because it has MORE of what I want. But NO browser has it all. Hopefully LL will notice WHY the other older browsers are preferred.
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: everything looks great on promotional videos, Extie 😀
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m with Ivy on that. . . The UI is the main change to actual user experience in SL 2. And it’s mediocre at best.
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: *giggle* Gwyn your cynicism makes me want to emigrate to portugal and offer you my collar.
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Well yes, I guess that is true, Gwyn:)
[2010/09/14 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Khannea 😀
[2010/09/14 16:05]  Judith Underwood: hola
[2010/09/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: cynism is the gift we get from old age 😉
[2010/09/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and bad spelling too
[2010/09/14 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: I heard Blue Mars is going to a system where their own servers will render your graphics, UI, everything, and stream it to a sort of dumb client at the user end.
[2010/09/14 16:05]  Judith Underwood: damn keyboards
[2010/09/14 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: One thing that is much worse with 2.1.1 is that group notices have been very downgraded.
[2010/09/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/09/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought that the worse things were the building tools, Scarp…
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scrap: I’d consider that an upgrade actually
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me giggles
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, me too, Ivy!!!
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: I don’t notice a difference in the building tools Gwyn? What do you notice?
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Judith Underwood: i’m tellin ya phoenix is emerald on steroids and blasts the competition totally away
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Build?……..oh yeah, that teeny word at the top, in between ‘world’ and ‘help’.
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Serendipity Seraph: serverside rendering is coming for 3D web for sure.
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: OhhhhOOOoohhhhOOOhhhwww my GODS the sheer arrogance of Blue Mars
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not a builder, Scarp, but all builders I know hate the clumsiness of the 2.X building tools
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m skeptical of how well that can work, especially in terms of bandwidth requirements and the cost of those rendering servers, but it would have some big advantages if it all pans out.
[2010/09/14 16:06]  Serendipity Seraph: although html5 will support browser use of GPU eventually
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: let’s hope so, Seren..:!
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: html5 supports GPU 3d *NOW*
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: Like I said, Gwyn, I have heard this too, but I have NEVER heard ANY specifics. So I am doubting that the difference is major.
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: but, we will have to wait 5 years before IE does it
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Judith: you know why Emerald consumed so much bandwidth, don’t you? 😉
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Judith Underwood: why
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: tell us
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well…
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Serendipity Seraph: it can work much better. streaming movie viewpoint instead of doing all the rendering cient side
[2010/09/14 16:07]  jesz Murakami: ??
[2010/09/14 16:07]  Serendipity Seraph: *client
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: So you mean Blue Mars will work like that OnLive gaming service?
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, it was not really illegal doing so, but Emerald tracked *all* avatars in sight of anyone using the viewer.
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: /me has friends who are still on dial-up BTW. 😦
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Judith Underwood: what for
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: I still say that in a few years something like the crysis engine will be a small, inconspicuous add-on to the SL client. And so will be other game engines as well. We can *easily* bruteforce all game engines into a single virtual client or engine eventually.
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: what do you mean by “tracked” exactly?
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: location, IP address, avatar name
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and viewer used
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Judith Underwood: why
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they used to sell a service called Onyx —
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Tell them to get fibreoptic broadband and to stop being silly, Zoe.
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it was an automatic banlist for merchants
[2010/09/14 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: location? bull. can’t get it.
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Lem Skall: and tracking the IP address is not wrong?
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it was quite useful too!
[2010/09/14 16:09]  jesz Murakami: i have friend on i-fone
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Scarp Godenot: I think the original idea of Blue Mars was for people to take a city area and make it a standalone game or place that could incidentally be connected to others of its kind inside of the same software package..
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well Lem, every web server in the world tracks IP addresses
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Not helpful, Extie. 😛
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Judith Underwood: lost
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can see that Khani never touched a single code of line and doesn’t understand that software gets more and more complicated, not the other way around 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren: not *RL* location; *SL* location 😀
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: yes. IP addr is part of TCP packets
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Judith Underwood: everything is tracked everywhere
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Well not like it is expensive anymore.
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Ataraxia Azemus: Scarp, which is why you can drench all the shiny you want on it and I’ll still pick SL to hang out in…
[2010/09/14 16:09]  Judith Underwood: do the other TPVs track and also LL
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right! so the point was to find where people with copybot-enabled illegal vieweres were going, and pre-emptively ban them from parcels tied to the Onyx system
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL tracks, of course
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: /me mocks Ivy and waves old game emulators in her face
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Judith Underwood: ohhhhhhhhh
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Fiber isn’t even available at any price in most of the world.
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: Yes Ataraxia, it is OpenSim where the action will happen in the future, not BlueMars in my opinion.
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear, Scarp
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Judith Underwood: i bet they did a thriving business
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Lem Skall: mmm, I expect my IP address to be known by a web server I connect to, I expect LL to know my IP address too, but not everyone who is near me and uses Emerald
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, Godm using the Internet on dialup is like driving a car with square wheels. Yeah it kind of works but it is too much of a pain in the ass to be a pleasure.
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, no — the drama hit them, and they dropped the product, Judith
[2010/09/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so they sold the database instead 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Judith Underwood: wow
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, that’s pretty much how my friend describes it. 😛
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Judith Underwood: is it still in use?
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ext: pain in the ass is always pleasure, as K
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: ask*
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me chuckles
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie & Ivy 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Haha!
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Judith: only on the Modular Systems sims
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: assuming these are still up
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not need to ask. I know;)
[2010/09/14 16:11]  Judith Underwood: i didn’t know they had sims lol
[2010/09/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure, they had a rental business
[2010/09/14 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: Gwyn, did you see where Intel did a test of 550 avatars concurrently in the same virtual OpenSim area with their new software? Apparently where the hangup is with their new system will be Server to Server bandwidth and Server matching (speedwise)
[2010/09/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, they guaranteed that no copybotter would enter their sims — that was the kind of protection they guaranteed
[2010/09/14 16:12]  Archmage Atlantis: Isn’t that a Stevie Wonder song, Gwyn…..”Extie and Ivy, go together……
[2010/09/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they did that, Scarp???? I missed it!
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Judith Underwood: snicker
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: actually they did over 1000. hacked servers to spread out the load.
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aha
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Like perfect harmony…
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: clever Intel 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: /me throws bits of ginger at Ivy
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me grins
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: instead of one server per everything on region model. more modularly distributed
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: Seren, the whole idea is to spread the load out to multiple servers who all act in real time like a single server.
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* — yes, there is a plugin for OpenSim to do a crude (but effective!) form of load balancing…
[2010/09/14 16:13]  Judith Underwood: hence i suppose modeular systems
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: I know you tried that one IRL 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I wonder…person A (who never saw an online world before) goes to Blue Mars. Person B goes to SL. Who is more likely to be impressed by online worlds?
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: This is on Intel’s Science Sim if anybody is interested. Let me find the link
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Judith Underwood: b
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Judith Underwood: for sure
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Blue Mars is really awful
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: I looks fairly OK
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I went to Science sim years ago. Crashed.
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Lem Skall: Extie, it depends what is their taste
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: But seriously
[2010/09/14 16:14]  Ataraxia Azemus: Maybe A until they look at the avatars or try to find something to DO :p
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Try engaing in chat
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Try walking
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Try not looking like a katoi
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Archmage Atlantis: The one with the best gaming, of course
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Judith Underwood: lord what a URL
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: a what?
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me prefers Scarp’s link hehe
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Dragon Lady
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: SL is pretty easy to start, you open it, click search, type BDSM *ENTER*! Welcome to second life!
[2010/09/14 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh I read about that on NWN. 100+ avvies per sim.
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol Ivy
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: The women in Blue Mars are *cough* a bit feminine challenged
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Judith Underwood: ruths
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Judith Underwood: on drugs
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Ivy
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Ataraxia Azemus: Basically
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Lem Skall: what? small breasts?
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: whoa, someone ran 1024 regions on one server?
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: why not, Seren? 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: sorry about that. missed the tinyurl key.
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Lem Skall: do men in Blue Mars have hige penises though?
[2010/09/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if they’re mostly empty…. it should work 😀
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Judith Underwood: just very ugly lem
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Lem Skall: huge*
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Judith Underwood: i have no idea
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Archmage Atlantis: How many regions in a breast implant.
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Lem Skall: ah, so huge SL penises win
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Judith — that will change, if Stroker Serpentine is allowed to establish his business there 😉
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Judith Underwood: so he is heading there is he
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: nah
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blue Mars is not open for *any* content developer
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Judith Underwood: oh
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: /me wonders when LL will stop with the prim size limit BS
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All requires pre-approval
[2010/09/14 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: OK, just for our serious knowledge, which current 3rd party SL browsers have bouncing breasts? ha ha
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: A name that sounds like ‘stroke a serpant’ is kind of apt, if you think about it.
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder the same, Sewren!!!!
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: the mesh will fix it all!
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Judith Underwood: phoenix and imprudence do
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: Stroker IS clever 😉
[2010/09/14 16:18]  jesz Murakami: mars women very very thin with gigantic breastworks
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: when is the mesh coming anyhow?
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: at least, Phoenix and Imprudence do 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Lem Skall: Blue Mars, here I come!
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Lem 😀
[2010/09/14 16:18]  Judith Underwood: or so i hear (smiles coyly)
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: hey, Hamlet is there.
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: the last time I heard, they wanted mesh in this year
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: though I’ve some doubts about that
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: just a feeling in my ghost
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Philip says they haven’t aandoned it
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: One has to know these things…. ha ha
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *abandoned
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: When will the inventory window be fixed?
[2010/09/14 16:19]  jesz Murakami: they gots nothen fer yer comin Lem
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Lem Skall: there was an update on meshes today
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: on the other hand, OpenSim has had meshes for the past 2.5 years….
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: They BOUGHT Hamlet! ha ha
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Ataraxia Azemus: Desmond Shang has a thing in Blue Mars as well
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: there was?
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Lem Skall: haven’t ead it
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: I came to SL largely because Hamlet sold it to me. MAybe he will do likewise for BM?
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Frederick Hansome: what is “mesh”?
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Ataraxia Azemus: Now that Caledon has eaten half the world
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes, Ataraxia — Desmond actually *tells* the Blue Mars guys what they should do 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like setting minimum prices 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:19]  Ataraxia Azemus: Good!
[2010/09/14 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No freebies in Blue Mars — lol
[2010/09/14 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘DO THIS’!
[2010/09/14 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes!
[2010/09/14 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: See I could do his job.
[2010/09/14 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or rather, “do THIS or I’ll go away with my business!”
[2010/09/14 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: Frederick: mesh (in SL context) is a feature allowing you to build 3d stuff with external software without any limitations that prims/sculpties have
[2010/09/14 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: So Hamlet is a whore?
[2010/09/14 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: This really bugs me. . .
[2010/09/14 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He’s very clever. He noticed that Anshe Chung was NOT in Blue Mars yet (she is getting richer in IMVU), so he filled that niche first,.
[2010/09/14 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: yes, for all purposes 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:21]  Judith Underwood: ah
[2010/09/14 16:21]  Frederick Hansome: tks, Ivy
[2010/09/14 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, great, Lem — thank you
[2010/09/14 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: Frederick Mesh is how all 3d objects are displayed. But in order for non prim objects made outside of SL to be displayed in SL the objects need to be converted into a texture and diplayed as a special sl prim. This is not the best solution. Actual mesh object files cannot be currently displayed in SL, but the ability to do that will happen this year we are promised.
[2010/09/14 16:21]  Lem Skall: I’m a whore too, it’s just nobody wants me
[2010/09/14 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl !
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: You are a poor whore.
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: so why aren’t we flocking to opensim worlds or meeting on our own opensim grids and regions?
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Judith Underwood: is opensim a place
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Ataraxia Azemus: Because we’re all here right now :p
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Judith Underwood: i mean like sl or blue mars
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: SL has urgently needed its inventory UI fixed for 6+ years now, but what are we getting instead? Some kind of “mesh” thing instead that most users won’t even understand the use of.
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Lem Skall: is SL a place?
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: If you want it to be, yes.
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Damn serendipity sounds as angry like me 2 years ago 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: you need to drop the price or find a better pimp, don’t they teach economy at schools now?
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Archmage Atlantis: In honor of the approaching hour mark, I’d like to propose 2 possible answers to the opening question “What lessons can we learn from the rise and fall of Emerald?” – Answer 1 – nothing, Answer 2 – LL can do whatever is chooses.
[2010/09/14 16:22]  Judith Underwood: it is to me lem
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Lem Skall: Ivy, price? you mean I could get paid?
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: SL is not a place. But Extropia Core is. And Steiger. And Pennyroyal. And live2give….
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Judith Underwood: it is so a place – pouts
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, part of being a whore is getting paid for your services, unless something changed
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Serendipity Seraph: oh, the users will appreciate all the fancy goods and scenes
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Ataraxia Azemus: Zobe, I’d like both. Cake and eating it too. But you’re right. My inventory is like a house blew up and no one bothered to pick anything up.
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: Ataraxia OpenSim is software that enables SL type places to be on any other server on the internet. There are alreay many other virtual worlds running OpenSim that are going right now. And you can surf between them as well.
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Archmage. No, I’d prefer “Be honest” as a lesson.
[2010/09/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It pays long-term
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: It woulkd be so funny if someone game out with a ‘serendipity’ SL client next month. Imagine all the funny word plays I could do.
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Frederick Hansome: Thanks for the discussion, folks. Learned a lot.
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: No SL is the platform. The places are the islands and sims built using the tools of the platform.
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Judith Underwood: well
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Judith Underwood: whatever!
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: ‘let’s explore SL inside serendipity’
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: Now that guy has serious hair.
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Judith Underwood: (chuckle)
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Iggy you have the coolest hair I have ever seen.
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Iggy Rasa: thanks i guess
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: LOL
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Iggy Rasa: new to sl
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: oh welcome!
[2010/09/14 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome indeed !
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Iggy Rasa: thanks
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: welcome, your soul is lost, you will burn in hell
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: The whole Emerald thing does underscore how SL is *not* like the WWW. Nobody controls the WWW. No central authority can ban a browser from the WWW.
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: with that hair, you’ll be an immediate success 😀
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Ataraxia Azemus: Well you found the meta-channel pretty easily
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: *imitates Kurgan voice* ‘I am in disguise – so no one recognizes me* HEY PHIL!
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Ataraxia Azemus: Bonus points!
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Archmage Atlantis: Oh, I thought it was a hat mad from a palm frond
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s actually a very good point, Zo!
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Iggy Rasa: just lookin for stuff to do and stumbled arcoss here
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps that’s another lesson to be taken
[2010/09/14 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Kurgan?…oh ‘better to burn out than to fade away’.
[2010/09/14 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: This is a discussion group that meets every week to talk about a particular topic. One that is different each week.
[2010/09/14 16:26]  Iggy Rasa: coool cool
[2010/09/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and we’ve been around since March 2004
[2010/09/14 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: /me gropes Iggy’s crotch, REMEMBER WHAT RAMIREZ TOLD YOU
[2010/09/14 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: then again, www doesn’t have a market with it’s own currency, and once you put something on the web it will be used by everybody
[2010/09/14 16:26]  Judith Underwood: they are all mad iggy believe nothing
[2010/09/14 16:26]  Iggy Rasa: lol
[2010/09/14 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: *giggle*
[2010/09/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s indeed the challenge, Ivy!
[2010/09/14 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Anyway we all done with this topic? Anyone have more to say?
[2010/09/14 16:27]  Judith Underwood: good topic
[2010/09/14 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: www uses everyones credit cards directly. 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Or more and more often through Paypal.
[2010/09/14 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A few people are experimenting with cross-grid economy on OpenSim. Will that work? Good question., technically, it works flawlessly, but will the community accept it?… Nobody knows
[2010/09/14 16:27]  Archmage Atlantis: With one small change, I’d agree with that description Scarp, change “talk about” to “talk around”
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Archmage
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m doubtful of the need for a currency in a virtual world. Just make everything free! 😀
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Ataraxia Azemus: People will accept what’s easy. Make accepting it easier than not and et voila.
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: although, yes, digressing from the topic is common 😀
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: The idea that everything will be stolen, whereas possible, stealing will still be illegal and therefore marginal. Just like photography and writing and music is today on the web.
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Ataraxia Azemus: I’m a dreamer too, Zobe.
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Iggy Rasa: I might be of topic but i think sl should be a utopian society that uses barter instead of the linden
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right, zo 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope you’re right, Scarp!
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Serendipity Seraph: you are welcome to give away anything you wish, zoe.
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: you really can’t have SL-alike economy with web-alike technology, it’s not compatibile. As much as I hate central-oriented structures (long live the cloud) that’s pretty much a must here
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I *did* buy a few things on one grid and brought them back to my own — so, well, it works
[2010/09/14 16:28]  Serendipity Seraph: can’t get my landlord to do free rent though.
[2010/09/14 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: the other solution would be to get is controled by RL law, and that could only make things worse 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This IS controlled by RL law 🙂
[2010/09/14 16:29]  Judith Underwood: gawd what a thought
[2010/09/14 16:29]  Judith Underwood: not in the social aspects gywn
[2010/09/14 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: Intellectual property is ALREADY controlld by law in most countries of the world.
[2010/09/14 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: just because people don’t get caught, it doesn’t mean that something is not illegal 😉
[2010/09/14 16:29]  Judith Underwood: think about it
[2010/09/14 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the same applies to OpenSim of course
[2010/09/14 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: I have been thinking about unionization. Getting people in SL organized in literal voting blocks and unions and representative governments. And then talk to LL with these entities.
[2010/09/14 16:30]  Serendipity Seraph: /me wants a good data haven for a Libertopia grid
[2010/09/14 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
[2010/09/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But about the social aspects, Judith? Sorry, I missed that…
[2010/09/14 16:30]  Judith Underwood: they would just ban you
[2010/09/14 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scrap: it is, but frankly, do you see police chasing someone who stole L$1000 worth of a skin (which is what? 4 bucks?)
[2010/09/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea, we tried that out in the summer of 2004 😉
[2010/09/14 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK…IS GOD REDUNDANT?
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