Thinkers 31 august 2010: I see no fault.

Gwyn and I

[2010/08/31 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Sooo..Welcome to Thinkers!
[2010/08/31 15:34]  Jamie Leodhais: sorry, was rezzing lol
[2010/08/31 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (long story, and now it’s out of context, Lem 🙂 )
[2010/08/31 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: This week the topic is ‘I see no fault’…
[2010/08/31 15:35]  Lem Skall: I didn’t see that
[2010/08/31 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Every user of SL must be faced with the same technical problems that has Chris Pirillo logging off in disgust, but we do not all abandon SL. What makes some people put up with faults that convince others SL is a waste of time?
[2010/08/31 15:35]  Serendipity Seraph: slowly rezzing. hey love! hey all
[2010/08/31 15:35]  Scarp Godenot: I know I know, because we have more than the attention span of an 8 year old!
[2010/08/31 15:35]  Luisa Bourgoin: probably we need to define “waste of time” for starters
[2010/08/31 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Lover! Run to my arms and show all what makes SL worth putting up with: Marriage to a loving woman with sparkly antennae!
[2010/08/31 15:36]  Serendipity Seraph: which problem is this?
[2010/08/31 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Reference: http://chris.pirillo.com/will-you-give-second-life-a-second-chance/
[2010/08/31 15:36]  Lem Skall: Chris was focusing too much on the technical side because that’s what his job is
[2010/08/31 15:36]  Judith Underwood: that is a hilarious video
[2010/08/31 15:36]  Luisa Bourgoin: I consider reading that URL … a waste of time 😛
[2010/08/31 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: A waste of time would be an inability to perform simple tasks, maybe?
[2010/08/31 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the nice excuse, lem. I believe that Scarp is right, though — people like Chris have too short attention spans.
[2010/08/31 15:37]  Scarp Godenot: Chris Pirillo’s job is to jump to conclusions based on little evidence.
[2010/08/31 15:37]  Serendipity Seraph: for crying out loud. sex and porn are the least of our worries
[2010/08/31 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why shouldn’t they be a “worry” anyway? hehe
[2010/08/31 15:37]  Judith Underwood: well he said they aren’t that big anymore
[2010/08/31 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Did you get the right URL? I believe that was an older post?
[2010/08/31 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Keep reading, that’s not his only — or main — complaint.
[2010/08/31 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some actually *like* it, they don’t “worry” about it 😉
[2010/08/31 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Extie — from the week before: http://chris.pirillo.com/why-didnt-second-life-become-a-hit/
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Judith Underwood: yes probably
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: /me quotes: performance and usability is still ass-nasty (no way around it). It’s just as much of a kluge to use as it was back in the day. I am using a high-end Mac Pro to play around, and it’s still sluggish and slow
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me hates to be promoting Pirillo 😛
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Serendipity Seraph: and anyone who says it is as bad in dependability or performance as in the old days obviously doesn’t remember the old days well
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Lem Skall: if you come from a game player POV then you will find SL to be a disaster
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: I find that comment from the website right on target.
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Judith Underwood: ah that’s the one i saw
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Luisa Bourgoin: does using a Mac qualify, or disqualifies a user?
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or perhaps you did mean this one from 2006: http://chris.pirillo.com/second-life-i-dont-get-it/
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Many people want the world to be ‘other’ than it is. They will never be satisfied. Accepting it as it is and dealing with that is the strategy those of us here have taken.
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Judith Underwood: hehe gwyn
[2010/08/31 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear, Scarp!!!
[2010/08/31 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In general, most people are never satisfied anyway, and have waaaay too highe xpectations. Not only about Sl. About *everything*.
[2010/08/31 15:39]  Judith Underwood: chris is concerned with performance instead of content
[2010/08/31 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not satisfied in the sense I hope online worlds can do better than this. But I am not so DISsatisfied that I give up on SL.
[2010/08/31 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: The user interface is still bad. Textures and other assets are still often balky about loading. There are still glitches and crashes. I could excuse those when I first joined because it was all new, and I figured the problems would all be fixed pretty soon. That was 6+ years ago.
[2010/08/31 15:39]  Luisa Bourgoin: so we are argueing the thoughts of some since-2006-dont-getter
[2010/08/31 15:39]  Judith Underwood: people like moi are just the opposite
[2010/08/31 15:39]  Serendipity Seraph: but whatever. regardless of *his* beef, what do we think of SL now?
[2010/08/31 15:40]  Gary Curie: room for improvement
[2010/08/31 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: And things *have* gotten somewhat better. But progress has been glacial and in some specific areas nearly nonexistent.
[2010/08/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quoting Pirillo’s only worthy sentence in his text: “Sorry, I must be stupid.”.
[2010/08/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yep. You are.
[2010/08/31 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: It seems to me that that guy didn’t give Second Life anything but a cursory test drive, and based his conclusions on comparing it to games, when actually the tech is quite different.
[2010/08/31 15:40]  Judith Underwood: i’m happy as a clam here
[2010/08/31 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: If all you want to do is sit around and chat, like I do. SL is adequate for that.
[2010/08/31 15:40]  Lem Skall: it’s true though that if you compare the graphics performance of SL with games, SL sucks and then the expectations of a lot of people are set by the video games
[2010/08/31 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Scarp, I’ve been here 6+ years and my experience mirrors his. Have I merely given SL a “cursory test”?
[2010/08/31 15:41]  Lem Skall: Extie, exactly
[2010/08/31 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, you’re just more patient, Zo 🙂
[2010/08/31 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: I assume Pirillo does know to take into account a streaming world versus a world that saved to your hard drive?
[2010/08/31 15:41]  Scarp Godenot: Zobeid, you’re experience is NOT like his. He sees no value here, you do.
[2010/08/31 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: So, given my deep chronic frustrating with SL, why am *I* still here?
[2010/08/31 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because of a very distinct characteristic that you have, Zo.
[2010/08/31 15:41]  Lem Skall: Extie, but that doesn’t matter, it is an excuse but the result is the same, performance sucks
[2010/08/31 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Because you love us, Zoe:))
[2010/08/31 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The ability to self-entertain.
[2010/08/31 15:42]  Judith Underwood: it’s less frustrating that rl to me
[2010/08/31 15:42]  Judith Underwood: *than
[2010/08/31 15:42]  Luisa Bourgoin: I am still not convinved that there is a solid definition of “wasting time”
[2010/08/31 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: I want more. Like using this as a platform for gathering people from all over. like merging SL and iRL tasks and activities where each enhances/extends the other
[2010/08/31 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: And I think it has a lot to do with lack of alternatives. Where is the competition to SL? Where is the *other* service that doesn’t have all those glitches? And that answer appears to be: There isn’t one.
[2010/08/31 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: I seem to remember that every complaint Prilillo made, they were ‘the things we pledge to improve’ in Philip’s many speeches at SLCC.
[2010/08/31 15:43]  Lem Skall: Zo, the competition of SL is eerything else you can do with your time, SL is entertainment
[2010/08/31 15:43]  Judith Underwood: just the opposite for me lem lol
[2010/08/31 15:43]  Serendipity Seraph: you do a bit more than just chat here, love. 🙂
[2010/08/31 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW what if they do not show any improvement? what recourse do we have?
[2010/08/31 15:43]  Judith Underwood: none
[2010/08/31 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, but it’s a very special kind of entertainment, Lem: it’s about creating your own entertainment, And very very few people have that ability.
[2010/08/31 15:43]  Serendipity Seraph: this is your instantiation as outside of words
[2010/08/31 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s indirect competition, that’s just part of the background noise of our society Lem. But it needs *direct* competition to force SL to improve — or to replace SL if it doesn’t improve.
[2010/08/31 15:43]  Luisa Bourgoin: competition is existing, but still either weak or very much similar to original SL
[2010/08/31 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: build out opensim grids. that is the recourse
[2010/08/31 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: I think we need to realize that this type of 3D interactive graphics networking is new tech. And needs high end devices to run properly. You need to buy those devices in order to improve the experience. I have done so and my experience is now much more seamless.
[2010/08/31 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: or something new and better
[2010/08/31 15:44]  Lem Skall: Zo, SL can die and disappear even if it does not have any direct competition
[2010/08/31 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right now, yes, Seren
[2010/08/31 15:44]  Judith Underwood: why WHY won’t somebody build a new fantastic competitor
[2010/08/31 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Judith, because nobody can figure out a business model around it.
[2010/08/31 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Linden Lab got it by chance…
[2010/08/31 15:44]  Judith Underwood: aaaarrrrrrrrgh
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think that’s likely, Lem. Even if LL collapsed, OpenSim would still hang around. It might be small but it wouldn’t disappear.
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Lem Skall: Scarp, 3D interactive graphics is new tech? NO
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Looks like SL is getting to Judith..
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: Lem virtually everything about what is being done here is developing tech.
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Judith Underwood: haha
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Serendipity Seraph: building out even an opensim grid is probably at least a year if not two or more with adequate budget before any ROI.
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL was already bankrupt in 2003 when they suddenly realised, “hey, we could have people pay tier and sell things in-world”:..
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Judith Underwood: i live here
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Serendipity Seraph: in my estimation
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp, as an artist do you get frustrated with SL?
[2010/08/31 15:45]  Serendipity Seraph: a virtual world is a lot more than just 3D graphics
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: there you go, Seren.
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: quite!
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Serendipity Seraph: the IEEE has a subgroup trying to nail what that more is
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, a lot more. . . It’s also badly animated sex! And gambling!
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: really. 🙂
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: I am not frustrated with SL, because it is the place where doing art experienced within a virtual 3d space can be done best.
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me hopes no IEEE representative is in this meeting 😉
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Judith Underwood: what’s ieee
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Lem Skall: aieee!
[2010/08/31 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Haha!!
[2010/08/31 15:47]  Gary Curie: will SL suffer from the absence of Chris P. ?
[2010/08/31 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: nstitute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers
[2010/08/31 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: The videogame comparison..Would that not be every noobs point of comparison? So, again, what is it that makes some people stay?
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me already answered that
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Franja Russell: Whoops. can’t see any floor.
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Judith Underwood: like a professional trade group or something?
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hello, Franja!)
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Answer it again.
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: Remember that what SL has is not just graphical 3D representations, but NETWORKED real time 3D space. All of those things can be done better separately but they are done best together here.
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Franja Russell: Hi…
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh is Franja here?
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Judith: right, it’s the largest world-wide organisation of engineers.
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, answer it a third time!
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol ok…. I wrote a whole essay on it,
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Judith Underwood: k
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Franja!
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Franja Russell: Still can’t see much.
[2010/08/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s the ability to self.entertain.
[2010/08/31 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: And I read that essay, I thought it was quite insightful.
[2010/08/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is something that few people have, and these days, we’re even discouraged from doing so by the current school system.
[2010/08/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks to Scarp, actually, Zo 🙂
[2010/08/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: like all good things, it was an improptu After-Thinkers meeting that gave me the idea.
[2010/08/31 15:49]  Camilla Delvalle: Gwyn, how is it discouraged by school?
[2010/08/31 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Hmmm…a visit to the adult sims of Sl plus an ability to ‘self entertain’. Hummmmm;)
[2010/08/31 15:50]  Franja Russell: Sorry Lem. Couldn’t see you.
[2010/08/31 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: don’t ask me that, Camilla!…. lol
[2010/08/31 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: /me gets all blushy
[2010/08/31 15:50]  Lem Skall: np, Fran
[2010/08/31 15:50]  Judith Underwood: hmmm
[2010/08/31 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie, ok, so, 20% sex and 80% self-entertainment if you wish 😉
[2010/08/31 15:50]  Archmage Atlantis: Gwyn, is the essay on your blog?….I haven’t read it and I would like to do so.
[2010/08/31 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure!
[2010/08/31 15:50]  Serendipity Seraph: ieee group was mainly to define interoperability standards for virtual worlds origianally
[2010/08/31 15:51]  Archmage Atlantis: tks
[2010/08/31 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I did notice one possible bad assumption in that. . .
[2010/08/31 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: I seem to remember that one commentator to Pirillo’s blog said we harm SL by putting up with its faults, If only we all logged off in protest, something might get done about these problems.
[2010/08/31 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: actually, I hope I’m wrong.
[2010/08/31 15:52]  Serendipity Seraph: it is a place to define a self – a environment for being.
[2010/08/31 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haah Extie — right,LL would collapse, no more SL 🙂
[2010/08/31 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren, for some, self-entertainment is building a self.
[2010/08/31 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: I think we can all remember our initial motivations for coming into SL. The idea of a real time ‘world inside of a computer’ sounded very interesting to me. I wanted to explore it.
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (again, how many Pirillo-type hard-core gamers understand *that*? 🙂 )
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Gary Curie: mentors no longer exist ?
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Gary 😦
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: Learning the tech hurdle seemed to be part of the process to me.
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Serendipity Seraph: if we all logged off the company would simply fold or run around like the proverbial chicken until it fell over. 🙂
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not official ones anyway
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Lem Skall: the reason for a lot of people coming into SL was OWNING a new world but that is gone
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Judith Underwood: i didn’t get the impression that he’s a gamer
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Judith Underwood: more a techie
[2010/08/31 15:53]  Judith Underwood: type
[2010/08/31 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: I came originally for the freedom and pure coolness of it
[2010/08/31 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Even if a very small fraction of the general population are self-entertainers, that could still be a larger number of people — far larger than are active in SL. There could still be huge room for growth, even without SL ever becoming “mainstream” as such.
[2010/08/31 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: but I didn’t get it for a long long time way back then
[2010/08/31 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: There are hundreds of thousands of residents able to find fault, I wonder what percentage of those have proposed real workable solutions to fix such problems?
[2010/08/31 15:54]  Franja Russell: There’s a group headed by Thinkerer Mellville which is trying to help SL participants. They have an area called “Hobo …..” . They have meetings and try to help people. But Bob Bunderfeld–who was absolutely marvelous at helping new people–has left SL because of some LL problems.
[2010/08/31 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might agree with you, Zo, if you mean that this “large number and people” would be constantly coming, dropping, never remaining, but being replenished all the time.
[2010/08/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: a very tiny one, but non-zero!
[2010/08/31 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: No, that’s not at all what I meant.
[2010/08/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think they’ll remain “active”.
[2010/08/31 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: I meant that there could still be a lot of people out there who would love SL who still haven’t discovered it.
[2010/08/31 15:55]  Serendipity Seraph: There is the New Citizen’s group
[2010/08/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just… “tourists”. Dropping in for a few hours, then leaving, coming back after a year or two.
[2010/08/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhhh
[2010/08/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s possible, yes, Zo!
[2010/08/31 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: I disagree with the idea that SL has not improved since 2006. I think it has.
[2010/08/31 15:56]  Scarp Godenot: How many here used ‘building toys’ to make things when they were children. I did that a lot. The things I built were an extension of my imagination. This is the same idea. Building here is an extension of the imagination. If that is what self entertaing is, I guess I am self entertaining…..
[2010/08/31 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Progress has been glacial, Extie.
[2010/08/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, 10,000 new ones discover SL *every day*, and have been doing so for 4 years… so yes, there are a lot that are still finding SL for the first time.
[2010/08/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes it has, Extie, but everybody hoped that by 2010 we had Matrix-quality performance 😀
[2010/08/31 15:57]  Franja Russell: The new viewer–that the new CEO says in print will become the only viewer SL accepts–is a mess! I’ve read that LL will drop the Emerald viewer in the near future.
[2010/08/31 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Well that is just asking too much, Gwyn.
[2010/08/31 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: I hoped by 2010 we’d have a decent UI and textures that loaded when called upon.
[2010/08/31 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: If you want new faces then perhaps events, tools, possibilites widely advertised you can’t do or not easily iRL?
[2010/08/31 15:57]  Judith Underwood: why do you suppose there hasn’t been progress?
[2010/08/31 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp, I believe that is the crucial question. I would say that “most, if not all” — even if you replace the “building toys” by another similarly self-entertaining activity.
[2010/08/31 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: there seem to be far fewer interesting events here than there once were. many sims are MIA
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW…would it be off topic to ask…what IS ’emeraldgate’?
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Lem Skall: I hoped that by 2010 the SL server would be open sourced
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Keep hearing about it. I do not know what it means.
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Serendipity Seraph: tempest in a teapot around emerald again, mainly
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Judith Underwood: hehe
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: shh Extie, don’t ask that while Scarp is here, he’ll answer “drama”
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: Zobeid, you must realize that there are a hundred programmers working full time to improve all of the many many facets of the second life tech. Maybe if there were a thousand progammers, things would progress much faster, but the money decides the progress.
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Well…I know what the suffix ‘gate’ means. Some kind of scandal..
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Rigrun Torok: I am here as this is a better world than RL and i am enjoying living here with my Lady and will put up with the problems as they will get better however, LL should take note as without us here there would not be any SL anyway! and if LL really got down to the basics and they worked together with the “others” instead of all this fighting with 3rd party viewers crap then something might improve with performances and the user experiences as there are good features in all viewers as we have discovered!! Then maybe then; loud-mouth newbie players may have a better first time experiences in SL and enjoy staying in a “second life” instead of screaming WHY WHY WHY!
[2010/08/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 175 programmers, actually. Microsoft has 40k, Google about the same.
[2010/08/31 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: they can see and have saved your IP associated with your name! FEAR AND TREMBLE!!!!
[2010/08/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Long story, Extie. Really, really long story.
[2010/08/31 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: 100 programmers in six years time couldn’t get textures to load reliably? Or redesign the inventory window so it’s not a UI horror?
[2010/08/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yep, Zo 🙂
[2010/08/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well not in 6 years,
[2010/08/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: in 2004, LL had 6 programmers 😛
[2010/08/31 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: yeah, I wonder how much emeraldgate is LL attempting to push out alternate viewers
[2010/08/31 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Why would they do that?
[2010/08/31 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha Seren! that’s the nicest spin on the whole conspiracy theory 😉
[2010/08/31 16:00]  Judith Underwood: so we use theirs extie
[2010/08/31 16:00]  Serendipity Seraph: money and IP restrictions
[2010/08/31 16:00]  Scarp Godenot: Zobeid, actually textures load much faster than they did even last year. I am on 2.1.1 and that is a fact.
[2010/08/31 16:00]  Serendipity Seraph: some things aren’t that open
[2010/08/31 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: They could have not released the viewer code in the first place. Why open source it, if they did not want third-party viewers?
[2010/08/31 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s better than it used to be Scarp. But sometimes things still get “hung up” and won’t load.
[2010/08/31 16:00]  Serendipity Seraph: many would help for free or just recognition/kudos or just to have something better
[2010/08/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, they hoped that people didn’t fork the code but contributed to it instead… but of course that meant actually *accepting* the code. Which they rarely did. Thus, TPVs.
[2010/08/31 16:01]  Serendipity Seraph: the inventory is client side only supposedly so they can’t script it without a rewrite. *shakes head*
[2010/08/31 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: TPV?
[2010/08/31 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: *has no idea what TPV means*
[2010/08/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Third_Party Viewers
[2010/08/31 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh.
[2010/08/31 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:02]  Lem Skall: anyway, I think that the performance and the viewer and all the technical problems are not the main obstacle for mainstreaming SL, the main obstacle is the lack of clear purpose
[2010/08/31 16:02]  Judith Underwood: like what i have
[2010/08/31 16:02]  Judith Underwood: emerald extie
[2010/08/31 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: because if they control the viewer they can lock in all players and do whatever they wish
[2010/08/31 16:02]  Judith Underwood: exactly seren
[2010/08/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Almost no open source project ever spawned so many different, independent projects on their own like SL did… it’s completely the opposite purpose of open-sourcing the code 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:02]  Franja Russell: TVP…don’t know either.
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Third-Party Viewer
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Franja Russell: Third Party Viewers….is that like Emerald?
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Judith Underwood: yes fran
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: The purpose is to log human social behaviour, eventually including all correlating neural processes, so digital people can awaken out of the sea of bits and rule the galaxy.
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Judith Underwood: and others
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Franja Russell: Thank you.
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Emerald, Imprudence, Hippo. . .
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thankfully, and others, yes
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Judith Underwood: Snow Globe
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Judith Underwood: although that’s really a linden one
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: is that log or lag human social behavior, darling? 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you know, I actually thought at the beginning that SL was a social experiment to locate new talents…
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: I think we need to focus on what we CAN do in virtual worlds, and not what we WISH we could do. The tech will come in time. Improvements will happen when they happen. This is NOT our concern. Our concern is to find and do what can be done. There is plenty enough of that for anyone…..
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Log, lover.
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Snowglobe is dead, long live Snowstorm (LL’s replacement of Snowglobe)
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Judith Underwood: what?
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: well said, scarp
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Judith Underwood: when
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Judith Underwood: WHY
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Scarp. But we humans pine for “better & faster”
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Lem Skall: it is an experiment for aliens to mingle with humans and to experience social interactions with them
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Is the glass half full or half empty, Scarp? 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: posers tend to decry what is wrong even more than doers
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Judith Underwood: cool lem
[2010/08/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Judith: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Snowstorm
[2010/08/31 16:05]  Lem Skall: Scarp, now I agree with you
[2010/08/31 16:05]  Judith Underwood: thx
[2010/08/31 16:05]  Rigrun Torok: ty
[2010/08/31 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: We can pine, but just because pine rhymes with whine doesn’t mean we need to do it as well…. heh
[2010/08/31 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem agrees with Scarp. We are seeing progress happen before our eyes!
[2010/08/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it also rhymes with wine, and that should give us a few hints 😉
[2010/08/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie!
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But yes, Scarp. But as you know, it’s far easier to complain than to actually do things about it 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Lem Skall: Scarp, now I am back to disageeeing with you, everything is back to normal
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Judith Underwood: i got no talents all i can do is complain
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps that IS a talent!
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: ha ha Gwyn, so true.
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Judith Underwood: hmmm
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Lem Skall: I hate this tendency of silencing the discontent because it may harm SL
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good constructive criticism is a form of complaining, and it requires some knowledge and skill to do it effectively.
[2010/08/31 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: People love to whine and be wronged. Witness the Emerald nuclear explosion of puhling…. ha ha
[2010/08/31 16:07]  Lem Skall: if SL is that vulnerable thne to hell with it
[2010/08/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, I don’t see people being silenced lol
[2010/08/31 16:07]  Serendipity Seraph: what silencing?
[2010/08/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rather the contrary!!!!
[2010/08/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and no, the proof that SL is not taht vulnerable is that LL is now not afraid to give shatteringly bad news twice in the same week!
[2010/08/31 16:07]  Lem Skall: well, calling the complaints whining and saying that we shouldn’t whine IS an attempt to silence
[2010/08/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They *know* they’re not vulnerable to complaining.
[2010/08/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh no, Lem
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think Scarp meant it that way!
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: what were the two. emerald ban and what else?
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Lem Skall: I do think so
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: I sometimes wonder if, originally, SL was made deliberately awkward to use, to encourage people to seek help and make contacts?
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Judith Underwood: devious that is
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah Extie
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: very devious
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: I’m just saying that whining is unproductive. If things are not under your control, you need not concern yourself with those things.
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: making this isn’t all that easy.
[2010/08/31 16:08]  Lem Skall: LL are not that smart to be so devious
[2010/08/31 16:09]  Judith Underwood: smirk
[2010/08/31 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: please grab opensim and try to improve things if you think it is easy
[2010/08/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll add an old saying to Scarp’s comment: “If you have control over it, why worry? But if you haven’t got any control over it, why worry? 🙂 “
[2010/08/31 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Happened with mecano. The blueprints contained deliberate mistakes, because the compny figured kids would enjoy working out the problem.
[2010/08/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear, Seren 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, and while you’re at it — design a new SL viewer. from scratch.
[2010/08/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2010/08/31 16:09]  Free Radar HUD: /me v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[2010/08/31 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: You tempt me. . .
[2010/08/31 16:10]  Lem Skall: I don’t need to improve anything, I’ll just find something else to do, I already spend only very little time in SL
[2010/08/31 16:10]  Serendipity Seraph: /me has considered a viewer rewrite in Lisp 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me notes that as far as I know nobody even attempted to *start* such a project….
[2010/08/31 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: BTW, it is too early to jump on the opensim bandwagon. But we are close to it being time as Gwyn’s surfing video shows. Soon we will be there.
[2010/08/31 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, there doesn’t seem to be any reason to start over “from scratch” with a viewer.
[2010/08/31 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, OpenSim only lags behind some 5 years 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: ha ha
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought there was, Zo! Everybody hates the high crashing rates and poor performace on all viewers 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Serendipity Seraph: FFI to libopenmetaverse
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: Mostly what OpenSim lacks is people in quantity.
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, there are around 100,000
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: not too bad!
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Camilla Delvalle: Why don’t we begin having meetings in Opensim too? Then I would spend more time there.
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Serendipity Seraph: opensim is actually ahead in many areas. many more functions for instance and no prim size limits
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: My big viewer complaints are all focused on the UI, so there’s no need to start over to fix that.
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, Gwyn, but not that much concurrency on ANY of the worlds.
[2010/08/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, 45k is the limit because of the viewer 😉
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah, exactly
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Serendipity Seraph: and it is not significantly more crashy than here
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhiannon!
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Camilla Delvalle: There use to be only like 80 people logged into OSGrid.
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: And by the way I am 5 of those 100,000 ha ha.
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: however that matters little IF they all start to interconnect themselves using Hypergrid 🙂 then you have to count concurrency +across grids* too
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Rhiannon! Hello:)
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Serendipity Seraph: there isn’t a good user density on any grid to make a sound ecology, especially not for commerce
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Rhi 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi zobeied
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: i’m still rezzing
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Arch!
[2010/08/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Camilla, i read an article from Justin, I believe, when he finally saw more than 100 avatars on the same OpenSim grid.
[2010/08/31 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and that grid didn’t crash
[2010/08/31 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Extropia!
[2010/08/31 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: currency and other fundamentals are more challenging when there are thousands of region/grid gods that may break whatever you need enforced for it to be viable
[2010/08/31 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: would you say opensim is further along than SL at an equivilent point in its life?
[2010/08/31 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, Seren, all of that will change when surfing between worlds and sl is second nature.
[2010/08/31 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Khannea!
[2010/08/31 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey what I hear sipples, boxing these days?
[2010/08/31 16:13]  Rhiannon Dragoone: this is a twilight zone landscape
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: jeepers, i must be close to my bandwidth limit or something
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello sweets!
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: yes. but it had SL to start from. not fair comparison
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Khannea, good to see you here 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Hoi trophy 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: technically yes. user numbers? no way
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Rhiannon Dragoone: u all talking about Opensim?
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, there are some crucial things done better for sure, but a lot that is simply not good enough
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Rhiannon 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: not concurrent users anyway
[2010/08/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: no, definitely not
[2010/08/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was happy the other day to get 4 users at the same time in a sim and they all managed to be happy at work there 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: …. the server was holding steady, completely puffing and huffing though
[2010/08/31 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Wow…what a dress Khannea almost has on:)
[2010/08/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie
[2010/08/31 16:15]  Judith Underwood: roflmao
[2010/08/31 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah I am sorry it rides up
[2010/08/31 16:15]  Serendipity Seraph: but Intel did tweak a grid to support over 1000 users on a single region. 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: Here is what will happen in the future with OpenSim and it is very exciting!: People will be able to develop massively primmed up immersive builds that stay up for much longer times because the economics of lower prices sims work so much better. Most of our greatest sims have gone by the wayside due to too high of costs. This will NOT be the case in the future.
[2010/08/31 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Khannea you should wear a pink dress or nothing. I happen to have no pink dress back at my place…
[2010/08/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Ok let me put that on right now
[2010/08/31 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: /me wonders if Khannea and Rhiannon know one another. . .?
[2010/08/31 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: scans the ever delightfully scandalous khannea
[2010/08/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Scarp…. I think that the “low price sims” are a fallacy, at least long-term. OpenSim is cheap if you can substitute money for cheap labour (e.g. students from an university with little else to do)
[2010/08/31 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Serendipity Ohhhhhhh have you scanned over the forum at OCE in the last hour Hmmmmmmmm????
[2010/08/31 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Scarp, I also know some great sims that have disappeared due to cost. Cost wasn’t always the only problem, but it was at least a contributing factor.
[2010/08/31 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you start adding the costs to run an infrastructure like LL has, OpenSim all of a sudden is not that cheap. And since it requires a lot more maintenance than SL, the cost might also be higher….
[2010/08/31 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: was waiting for my BP to drop, k
[2010/08/31 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: Rhiannon, subscribo (or similar?)
[2010/08/31 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: Well we know that 300 us dollars a month is too high and 25 is too low. There will be a price point that the market will decide. My guess is less than 100 per month.
[2010/08/31 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: And yeah. . . Then there’s the question of how cheap OpenSim will ultimately be, in the long haul.
[2010/08/31 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: OpenSim can support $75/region or cheaper for equal region performance. I priced it out
[2010/08/31 16:18]  Archmage Atlantis: Odd you should mention OCE Khannea…….for me this coversation here has much the same feel as the discord there.
[2010/08/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, Scarp, i don’t know how that might be possible, assuming that the idea is to give people the same performance they have in SL.
[2010/08/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: really, Seren…
[2010/08/31 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Advancing technology is on our side. I remember when it took huge resources to run a text-based MUCK. Now it’s trivial, you can run one on a netbook.
[2010/08/31 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: you may want more if that is your only income source. but it isn’t that difficult to do that much
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Lem Skall: you can get a blog for free, that’s the right price for a sim also
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: Well, Gwyn the hosting sites will NOT have to be the companies that develop the technology. That is why they will be able to be less expensive.
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Well…a basic blog for free.
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: how so, Scarp?
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Serendipity Seraph: a blog is much much simpler and needs less real computational power. utterly unfair comparison
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *scratches head*
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Lem Skall: ok, a basic sim then
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm.
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: No way I could have a blog like Gwyn’s without paying.
[2010/08/31 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m paying $19.95/mo for my Linode. :/
[2010/08/31 16:20]  Lem Skall: heck, you can host a whole web server with your domain on your own PC
[2010/08/31 16:20]  Serendipity Seraph: WordPress will run on any machine for “free” but what of the machine and bandwidth costs?
[2010/08/31 16:20]  Archmage Atlantis: The reason I come here is because there are groups of intelligent people who take the time to think……..
[2010/08/31 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: Btw I will be starting a new format for events this weekend – Red versus Blue. If anyone here is interested, stand by for the precise timing, I my be finetuning with the event of Serendipity (may become 9L15 or 9:30 (!!!)
[2010/08/31 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A quick comparison…. one of my grid sims, with 4 people on it and 20,000 prims on one region, consumes the same amount of CPU and bandwidth than a server with hundeds of sites handling 6 million hits per day…
[2010/08/31 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: Also in the future, bandwidth will be less expensive as it becomes faster.
[2010/08/31 16:21]  Lem Skall: I don’t take time to think I just talk
[2010/08/31 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: But SL is free provided you do not want to build a home…or anything at all of any permanence, accept friendships.
[2010/08/31 16:21]  Archmage Atlantis: And until there is an ability for a lecture or a realtime group discussion some where else….why change
[2010/08/31 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right, Extie 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:21]  Serendipity Seraph: and you never buy anything.
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, she has a few new outfits, Seren 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Lem Skall: I haven’t spent a L$ in ages
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: I like opensim, because it makes me feel even if SL should disappear, I might not be without my friends for long.
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: I think the business model of the future is to take a percentage of commerce. Say 10 percent.
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: /me is considering setting up an opensim discussion space
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Ooo invite me love!
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh my. SL merchants wouldd skin you alive….
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: I would go to that!
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Camilla Delvalle: I spent 2L$ a few days ago.
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: LL takes more than that on xstreet
[2010/08/31 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: I want a virtual world without commerce, Scarp.
[2010/08/31 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: please make it Hypergrid-compatible, Seren!!
[2010/08/31 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: YOu know want to know how much I spend on SL.. ha haha
[2010/08/31 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: more than 10%? Ah, if you include the charges for taking the money out…
[2010/08/31 16:23]  Serendipity Seraph: HG from which grids? near osgrid?
[2010/08/31 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: Zobeid, there will be no virtual worlds without someone paying the bills Zobeid.
[2010/08/31 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: whoops
[2010/08/31 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: allow *incoming* Hypergrid connections, Seren!
[2010/08/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you know, actually, lately, I have seen a very annoying trend on the OpenSim grids…
[2010/08/31 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: there grid space affects HG. also not sure that 0.7 is all that compatible with 0.69 HG jumps as I haven’t tested it out.
[2010/08/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the largest, most popular, and more likely the ones making some money out of it, do NOT allow incoming Hypergrid teleports.
[2010/08/31 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Just like there will never be free operating systems, or free office suites, or free web browsers, or free MUDs/MUCKs?
[2010/08/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren: forget 0.6.9 lol 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: The very annoying trend I see in OpenSim grids is making them all PG.
[2010/08/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2010/08/31 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: osgrid is largest of the grids and is wide open
[2010/08/31 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: I had a talk with someone whose name I shall not disclose. And he told me it wasn’t too difficult to grab all items in his inventory, cancel all rights to mod, copy and transferrale and (apart from scripts) move all textures and sculpties and prims as a fairly routine act in one big batch to a private server. So I asked him, when will this happen, and soon after we were speculating THOIS is the reason non-LL opensim kinda still sucks o thios day. When it doesn’t the dam will burst and some idiot from kazachstan will start streaming all content at a dime per megabite per 200.000 inventory items per week and all content sellers and owners in LL will be shit out of luck.
[2010/08/31 16:25]  Serendipity Seraph: or to be precise, many regions attached to it are
[2010/08/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, a fortunate exception, Seren. Now if they also upgraded to HG 1., I’d be happy 😉
[2010/08/31 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: Art is impossible in a PG environment btw……
[2010/08/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea, we have CopyBot since 2006 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: And soon we can stream all that. Or torrent it.
[2010/08/31 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Still trying to figure out how to get CopyBot working on my Mac. 😦
[2010/08/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Zo!
[2010/08/31 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not hear it mentioned anymore. Copybot that is. Have we just learned to live with it?
[2010/08/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Install Mono -> libopenmetaverse -> TestCLient.exe. Easy peasy!
[2010/08/31 16:26]  Serendipity Seraph: that is why if I ran a for profit grid I would not allow 3rd party region gods to attach their region. outside that it is hard to do what you say, K
[2010/08/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it gets mentioned often among the merchants, Extie
[2010/08/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: every day
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: And what I do then is socialize and have fun and not be dependent on Linden Lan with my alt Khannea Bubblicious, who ofcourse will have absolutely nothingto do with me.
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: LL is taking action by removing copybotted items from all inventories I have noticed recently.
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: if you don’t have access to the grid database you can’t change creator bits, etc.
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but since there has not been any recent drama woth to make the everyday news, well…
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Guess I do not pay attention to the right blogs and goups.
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: LL cant remove stuff from NON-LL servers
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: Especially when that shit is sdreamed or torrented from someplace X
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Seren, I was actually quite impressed on how well that actually works!
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: Well Where in SL is there a non LL server?
[2010/08/31 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: nowhere!
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: there used to be a few on IBM though
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Judith Underwood: bye ya’ll see you next time gotta go
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: not any longer
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: see you, Judith 😀
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Rigrun Torok: safe paths
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Judith Underwood: have fun and prosper
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: There are no private SL servers? There used to be something Lotus I think? Is that gone too?
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: Seeya Judith!
[2010/08/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Apparently, Khannea, now IBM does it all on OpenSim. They have stopped co-development with LL.
[2010/08/31 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: I assume Khannea means such servers are forthcoming? I mean, wait long enough and Moore’s Law will deliver computers small enough to fit in your pocket and powerful enough to run SL.
[2010/08/31 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Ok so – opensim. What if Opensim is good enough.
[2010/08/31 16:29]  Serendipity Seraph: there was an experiment in behind firewall LL servers that failed to earn them a bunch of money
[2010/08/31 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: OpenSim is to SL as Linux is to Unix.
[2010/08/31 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah, Extie, but by that time, SL would have expanded with more features to use all available space and memory and CPU and bandwidth….
[2010/08/31 16:29]  Serendipity Seraph: but not the same as full server code access, hack your own and plug in to main grid
[2010/08/31 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh nice comparison, Zo :)))))))
[2010/08/31 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh yes.
[2010/08/31 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: My point is that at some point I will have a full range of inventory items (and probably more so) in opensim, and an avatar in opensim
[2010/08/31 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, no, Seren. What I meant was that at some point, IBM used to have a few servers that were connected to the grid and running LL’s software
[2010/08/31 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: There has to be an encryption standard for virtual goods for true interworld commerce to be effective. How that will happen I don’t know. But I do know that it WILL happen because it has too.
[2010/08/31 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: If Chris Pirillo visited the best, most stable opensim grid there is..would he be more impressed than he was with SL?
[2010/08/31 16:30]  Serendipity Seraph: yes, K. osgrid is a great place for lots of starter freebies for anyone interested
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is now a protocol for that, Scarp — VWRAP!
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: and I will have my regular LL (TM) avatar in SL-space (SLVerse) with the unqie LL servers and low lag quality enviromnent, at that time with no law after they have been taken over my emerald.
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it was launched in July, just as scheduled
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Scarp Godenot: cool Gwyn
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: not cool
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Scarp Godenot: why
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: at the same time, LL announced they wouldn’t support it
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Scarp Godenot: oh
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: And I’m sure that there will eventually be a virtual world with no artificial scarcity. Somebody will make it happen.
[2010/08/31 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s being slowly and patiently implemented in OpenSim, but there might be no point in doing it if LL doesn’t do the same.
[2010/08/31 16:32]  Serendipity Seraph: no scarcity at all means no money in creation.
[2010/08/31 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that LL is counting on that the largest grids will remain closed. As said, this is happening today (OSgrid excluded)
[2010/08/31 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: no artificial scarcity, I fear SL will choke on Asset Servers fillup on the long run
[2010/08/31 16:32]  Serendipity Seraph: sure you want that?
[2010/08/31 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes. That’s exactly what I want.
[2010/08/31 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Serendipity Seraph: I doubt it. but you are welcome to try. osgrid is a place you will like then
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m fine with no money, so long as that means no bills to pay and no need to buy food 🙂
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: (Looks at the time….)
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Scarp Godenot: Well if it works in OpenSim and they can successfully make and keep their goods from being stolen. OpenSims might be setting the future virtual world standard for SL. ONe they will have to adopt or face losing their installed user base.
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Franja Russell: ??? The largest grids will remain closed ???
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: I tried OSgrid, they still have DRM/permission flags. 😦
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the current trend, Franja
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It might be reversed, I don’t know…
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shrugs*
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp, the problem is that you cannot avoid the Analogue Hole….
[2010/08/31 16:33]  Franja Russell: What sense does it make to close grids so no one can do anything on them … yet expect people to come to SL?
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Serendipity Seraph: it doesn’t work in opensim very well yet. getting there though. goods with external currencies and more protective protocols than can be used on multiple grids
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Luisa Bourgoin: creators just love getting paid
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Scarp Godenot: What is the Analogue hole?
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you can make it harder — so that only crackers and not the average user can break the encryption, but you can’t make it 100% safe
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Serendipity Seraph: yes, but a lot doesn’t have them.
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Zobeid Zuma: There was a time when Compuserve thought they could keep all the *good* stuff online within their walls. That didn’t work.
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Khannea Suntzu: The trick to protecting content is providing services that are server based, such as LSL.
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah — if it’s inside your computer, you can copy it. That’s the Analogue Hole.
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Khannea Suntzu: What can be server-only?
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Serendipity Seraph: or is free to copy or solf for 0
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Luisa Bourgoin: an ‘ Analogue hole’ is an asshole equipped with Copybot
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Serendipity Seraph: *sold for
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: good description, Luisa 😀
[2010/08/31 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well my time is UP!
[2010/08/31 16:35]  Serendipity Seraph: if you understand the db schemas well enough
[2010/08/31 16:35]  Zobeid Zuma: It seems perverse for the server to *send* me stuff and then expect me not to copy or modify it.
[2010/08/31 16:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins
[2010/08/31 16:35]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: A NEW YOU?
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