THINKERS AUGUST 17 2010: THAT LOVIN’ FEELING.

[2010/08/17 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: So! Welcome to Thinkers. Today’s topic was thought up by Judith Underwood (three cheers for Judith!) and it is this:
[2010/08/17 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Is love the same in SL as it is in FL? or is SL love a new human phenomenon whose definition hasn’t yet been complete
[2010/08/17 15:35]  Lem Skall: what’s love?
[2010/08/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, indeed, Alexi — Llewelyn was once a king of a region in Wales called Gwyneth 😉
[2010/08/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (cheers to Judith!)
[2010/08/17 15:35]  AbaBrukh Aabye: while we’re t it, are we going to figure out what “love” is?
[2010/08/17 15:35]  Alexi Flux: Yeah I like wales
[2010/08/17 15:35]  Lem Skall: I know hate, don’t know love
[2010/08/17 15:35]  Judith Underwood: oh lem
[2010/08/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh pfft Lem
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Alexi Flux: Love is total submission
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you know one thing, you know the opposite too 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Judith Underwood: i have experienced love in fl and in sl
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: total submission! oh my
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Judith Underwood: as i assume most of us have
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what a terrible thought .)
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Rigrun Torok: SL relationships can be incredibly powerful when pure communication is created heart to heart.
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Lem Skall: oh, but I do love the smell of napalm in the morning
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Smells of victory.
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Alexi Flux: Well it is Gwyn
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shakes head*
[2010/08/17 15:36]  Alexi Flux: you know what submission means
[2010/08/17 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: If I say it is safe to surf this beach, it is safe to surf this beach!
[2010/08/17 15:37]  Alexi Flux: to give yourself totally
[2010/08/17 15:37]  AbaBrukh Aabye: submission has nearly has many definitions as love has
[2010/08/17 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok that is enough appocalypse Now quotes.
[2010/08/17 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naaah, love is just the desire to make another person happy (not expecting anything in return)
[2010/08/17 15:37]  Camilla Delvalle: Submission is when you send an article to a magazine.
[2010/08/17 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Camilla 😀
[2010/08/17 15:37]  Alexi Flux: Idont think so there are too many people hijacking words
[2010/08/17 15:37]  Ataraxia Azemus: Love is never having to say I’m sorry.
[2010/08/17 15:37]  Judith Underwood: this isn’t about sex, although sex is and can be part of love – it’s about commitment and total trust; freely allowing another to know your innermost thoughts, doubts and fears to an extent not possible in fl; it is the fulfillment of each person’s longing to be merged with another in total trust; yes it is different in sl; it is an emotion which has never before existed in the world; a shared dream, a shared fantasy a shared existence
[2010/08/17 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: So apart from being disappointed when you discover the RL person is actually not a dead-ringer for Mariah Carey’s better looking sister…how can SL love differ from RL love?
[2010/08/17 15:38]  Lem Skall: never before existed?
[2010/08/17 15:38]  Judith Underwood: yes – have virtual worlds ever existed before
[2010/08/17 15:38]  Ataraxia Azemus: No body language, no touch, no physical intimacy….obvs :p
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: There is touch and physical intimacy.
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Judith Underwood: however there is the mind – which is limitless
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Alexi Flux: Yes, but the mingling of the minds
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Lem Skall: intimacy can exist even without the physical
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, if your ‘love’ is attached to a physical form, it’s not love any more. It might be passion, desire, lust… but not love
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Ataraxia Azemus: Only if you have really long fingers.
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Judith Underwood: i agree with lem to my astonishment
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Alexi Flux: Yes lem I think thats right
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Judith, indeed
[2010/08/17 15:39]  AbaBrukh Aabye: since so much of intimacy is cerebral, what really is the difference between SL & RL in that regard?
[2010/08/17 15:39]  Somedirtycat Saule: Question. How many get aroused on a hot AV, regardles of or if they know the user?
[2010/08/17 15:40]  Judith Underwood: i don’t
[2010/08/17 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I do! 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But are we talking about ‘arousal’ or love?
[2010/08/17 15:40]  Judith Underwood: i can like to look without being “aroused”
[2010/08/17 15:40]  Judith Underwood: love gwyn
[2010/08/17 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: No. fMRI scans show that if you read a textual description of a physcical act, it activates areas of the brain concerned with touch and feeling. And, probably, the more descriptive the words are, the more effective the modelling is.
[2010/08/17 15:40]  Lem Skall: I don’t get aroused by a hot av the way I am aroused by a picture of a REAL hot woman but I am aroused by the depiction of sex even in SL
[2010/08/17 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because I would definitely answer Aba’s question with “there is no difference”
[2010/08/17 15:40]  Somedirtycat Saule: Love a AV… I dont know…
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Judith Underwood: you love the person not the AV
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re not loving “an avatar”,; you can only love the person
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Alexi Flux: Its the mind that is so pure in SL
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right!
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, Judith, I’m a slow echo of you today 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: People love me. I am an avatar.
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Alexi Flux: the AV is just the frame
[2010/08/17 15:41]  AbaBrukh Aabye: desCartes would say there is no difference between an av and a person
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Judith Underwood: haha
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Lem Skall: what is the person? you mean the persona impersonated by the av or the RL person behind that?
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Judith Underwood: well there isn’t really aba
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Extie. “You” and “your avatar” are two different things.
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Ataraxia Azemus: Unfortunately, an attractive avvie and an attractive mind are qualities that only occasionally overlap :p
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Alexi Flux: Dont know what he woud know about t
[2010/08/17 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “your avatar” is just your manifestation of your self in a virtual world.
[2010/08/17 15:42]  Ataraxia Azemus: Your metaverse pinky.
[2010/08/17 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ataraxia … same as in the physical world hehe
[2010/08/17 15:42]  AbaBrukh Aabye: your self or the self you want to project, of course
[2010/08/17 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: (Wonders of she has an avatar.)
[2010/08/17 15:42]  Ataraxia Azemus: True.
[2010/08/17 15:42]  Alexi Flux: Why would I wat t manifest yself here Gwn
[2010/08/17 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: avatar just means “manifestation” in Sanskrit:P
[2010/08/17 15:42]  Alexi Flux: surely RL and SL shoud be kept sparate
[2010/08/17 15:42]  AbaBrukh Aabye: right Gwyn
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Alexi Flux: separate
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Judith Underwood: that is impossible alexi
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Hard to do, Alexi.
[2010/08/17 15:43]  AbaBrukh Aabye: I agree
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Judith Underwood: unless you are here to play a game
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Ataraxia Azemus: Oh, to be an avatar in a land of divas…
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Alexi Flux: Why,
[2010/08/17 15:43]  AbaBrukh Aabye: nearly if not totally impossible
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Camilla Delvalle: But then Wittgenstein said something like “The human body [avatar] is the best picture of the human soul.”
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure, Alexi — the same way you separate, say, your dreams, from what you consider to be reality 🙂 That doesn’t mean that even in your dreams you’re not the same person 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Judith Underwood: aha goodd quote
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well said, Camilla 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that quote too!
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Ataraxia Azemus: Um, I agree, sorta, but I don’t like really hard lines between RL and SL.
[2010/08/17 15:43]  Alexi Flux: Wll of course you have to operate the AV and you have to be the mind of the AV
[2010/08/17 15:44]  Ataraxia Azemus: So, yeah. What Gwyn said.
[2010/08/17 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Why? Because the boundaries between RL and the Web are fluid, indistinct and defined by the individual who is apt to change their mind.
[2010/08/17 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are only lines if you draw them 🙂 They don’t exist unless you create them.
[2010/08/17 15:44]  Alexi Flux: But why make SL justa extesion f RL
[2010/08/17 15:44]  Judith Underwood: i have a comment about all this sl marriage and stuff
[2010/08/17 15:44]  AbaBrukh Aabye: it’s not an extension
[2010/08/17 15:44]  Ataraxia Azemus: Fire away.
[2010/08/17 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes please do:)
[2010/08/17 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d prefer to say, Alexi: make SL an extension of the *mind* — just like RL 😉
[2010/08/17 15:44]  AbaBrukh Aabye: they are interacting sets
[2010/08/17 15:44]  Judith Underwood: i think the insane jumping from “love” to “love” – marriage to marriage – partner to partner that we see in sl comes from having a vague sense that something wonderful and new is possible here; but that can never be achieved without a profound trust and commitment to one’s partner; sl love isn’t and shouldn’t be the goal for everyone; but for those whose fl permits the pursuit of it, and who wish to experience the intense emotion of it, sl love will come to be a new way of living – a new experience – existing only in this virtual world
[2010/08/17 15:45]  Alexi Flux: Yes, I buy thar Gwyn
[2010/08/17 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Love is not just about marriage.
[2010/08/17 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: think of motherly love…
[2010/08/17 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: even fraternal love…
[2010/08/17 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: I wonder…Do the people who find real, transcendent value in SL or online worlds all have someone they love in that world?
[2010/08/17 15:45]  AbaBrukh Aabye: nice point Judith
[2010/08/17 15:45]  Ataraxia Azemus: Love should never be a goal, but a meaningful end in itself.
[2010/08/17 15:45]  Somedirtycat Saule: I can feel a ‘tickeling’ looking at a sexy AV but there need to be some more, like good roleplayingg at least.
[2010/08/17 15:45]  Judith Underwood: i do extie
[2010/08/17 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: I do.
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Judith Underwood: roleplaying is game playing
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: For me, the people I love are what makes it worth putting up with the crap that has Chris Prillio pulling faces.
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, my personal aspiration is that people find real, transcendent value *everywhere* and find love *everywhere*, not just in RL… or SL 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Judith Underwood: that’s different from what i’m thinking of
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Darling!
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some, that’s just, well, lust/desire/pasion
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Serendipity Seraph: hello my love!
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *passion even
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Serendipity Seraph: hello everyone
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (point ,made, Extie — and hi Seren haha )
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Judith Underwood: hello serendipity
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: *Snuggles up*
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: I think so too, Gwyn.
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Alexi Flux: Hi serendipity
[2010/08/17 15:46]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Serendipity
[2010/08/17 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing against passion, of course 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But mixing it up with love is a no-no
[2010/08/17 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: what do we define as transcendent value
[2010/08/17 15:47]  Lem Skall: hi Seren
[2010/08/17 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Value that is intrinsic, I guess, Seren
[2010/08/17 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. not dependent on anything
[2010/08/17 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: there are many values here that many value as deeply as in any other world
[2010/08/17 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (which doesn’t exist, of course, but that’s another story hehe )
[2010/08/17 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes!
[2010/08/17 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: like, for instance, reputation 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:48]  Ataraxia Azemus: Value exists wherever we see it 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:48]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t know if I believe in intrinsic value. value independent of the valuer
[2010/08/17 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s far more important than iRL — where you have diplomas, certificates, and all sort of BS to “prove” your reputation.
[2010/08/17 15:48]  Judith Underwood: who here has experienced the intense love of sl?
[2010/08/17 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Me!
[2010/08/17 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m *sure* I don’t believe in intrinsic value, Seren 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:49]  Alexi Flux: I have Judth
[2010/08/17 15:49]  AbaBrukh Aabye: I certainly have
[2010/08/17 15:49]  Aebleskiver Thibedeau: I have as well…
[2010/08/17 15:49]  Rigrun Torok: For those of you who don’t get it yet! You wont until you spend time getting to know someone in second life, your not only just chatting your are spending almost every minute you can with some who knows who you are really! then there is no reason to lie, no other crap or rubbish that you find in RL! In this way its a freedom (as Judith has said) like no other to be yourself and look deeply at each other at our purest
[2010/08/17 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: there are reputations here to though
[2010/08/17 15:49]  Somedirtycat Saule: Passion yes. Its ok. I guess any deeper depends on the person/user. Like in rl then
[2010/08/17 15:49]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, I disagree, I care a lot less about reputation in SL than I do in RL, actually I think that SL can be an escape from the constrraints of reputation
[2010/08/17 15:49]  Ataraxia Azemus: It’s not an absolute either way. To find value in something is a relationship between a person and that thing, neither an object nor a purely subjective experience.
[2010/08/17 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: But I am a lie by definition. A digital person is a work of fiction, which could be called a lie.
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Lem Skall: love of SL? you mean love for SL?
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, sure! I’m not saying that it’s an absolute value; just that SL has some values that are more important than in RL (and, of course, the reverse applies too, even more so)
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Serendipity Seraph: sounds great Rigrun but I believe that can be done iRL too
[2010/08/17 15:50]  AbaBrukh Aabye: I disagree, Extropia
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Judith Underwood: no lem i mean love for another
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Ataraxia Azemus: Reputation is what you make it, here.
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: On what basis do you disagree?
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie — you’re arguing for “what is true”
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite so, Ataraxia 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Rigrun Torok: no you are wrong this deeper
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Serendipity Seraph: it is easy to start over or do an alternate path here
[2010/08/17 15:50]  Alexi Flux: Its very easy to cheat and lie i SL
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s even easier to cheat and lie in RL!
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: but SL has constraints iRL does not as well
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Ataraxia Azemus: If your reputation really tanks…..we’ll always have Ahern again.
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Alexi Flux: so you have to make a point ofbeig honest
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Lem Skall: Atar, reputation is what you make it also in RL
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SOrt of, Lem.
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Alexi Flux: only the operator knows the truth
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, but it’s much, much harder to fake your death for real, Lem 😛
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: you are a wondrous creations that I adore my love.
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A typical example — you can get a job as a psychologist if you have a diploma. It doesn’t matter much if you’re good or bad at it.
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: is creation a lie?
[2010/08/17 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: *Smiles*
[2010/08/17 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We all create ourselves, lol — SL or RL has little to do with that 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:52]  Ataraxia Azemus: We are what we pretend to be.
[2010/08/17 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Ataraxia. Pixels, atoms, that’s irrelevant!
[2010/08/17 15:52]  Serendipity Seraph: good luck getting that or most any job these days with just a piece of paper
[2010/08/17 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Well…I think not, provided no deception is intended. I am pretty open about being a character, rather than a representation of any RL person.
[2010/08/17 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren: touché 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Does love need to be taken into RL before it can be genuine?
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Serendipity Seraph: it is easier here to present the appearance we want and human based or operated beings are so into that.
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would say that most people are NOT representations of “any RL person” really. They are their own characters.
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Alexi Flux: How any peopleare using SL as a dating site folks?
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Camilla Delvalle: Yes that’s a good question Extie.
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah!
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, the question is good!
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Serendipity Seraph: iRL a lot of things do on do not happen based on appearance and 1st impressions you have little control over
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The answeris “nah!”
[2010/08/17 15:53]  Ataraxia Azemus: No. But RL is more nuanced.
[2010/08/17 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: things like ageism and sexism enter in
[2010/08/17 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: If my primary falls in love with Seren, does one person love her or two?
[2010/08/17 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Seren. Sooooo true.
[2010/08/17 15:54]  Judith Underwood: in sl beauty is always possible – the nagging doubts about fat tummies and sagging chins; pale skin and balding pates – don’t exist in sl; this frees one to concentrate totally on the partner and creates a liberation of the mind; it makes immersion into a world where only you and your partner exist possible – a world which can fulfill your every wish; provide you with all you can dream of;
[2010/08/17 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie. Remember, the notion that you have a split personality is not apparent to anyone except for you 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:54]  Judith Underwood: and this is NOT possible in rl
[2010/08/17 15:54]  AbaBrukh Aabye: in SL you meet someone from the inside out – probably know them more deeply than we often know people in RL –
[2010/08/17 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: depends on how much separation there is between primary and SL being which is a bit subjective
[2010/08/17 15:55]  Ataraxia Azemus: You’d think beauty is affordable, but man, there are a lot of butt ugly avatars out there ;P
[2010/08/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point is, Seren, we can’t know, unless we’re looking behind Extie’s shoulder.
[2010/08/17 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Co-consciousness, gwyn. Split personalities are compartmentalized and each has no awarness of the other’s existence.
[2010/08/17 15:55]  Serendipity Seraph: can’t know what, gwyn?
[2010/08/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Extie, but that falls back to Descartes — how can we know that there is anthing beyond Extropia?
[2010/08/17 15:55]  AbaBrukh Aabye: a sufficiently intuitive and empathic person can know a lot about a person even if they are trying to hide it
[2010/08/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can’t.
[2010/08/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We only perceive Extropia.
[2010/08/17 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All the rest, well, is speculative.
[2010/08/17 15:56]  Ataraxia Azemus: I agree, Aba.
[2010/08/17 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: To be is to be perceived.
[2010/08/17 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
[2010/08/17 15:56]  Judith Underwood: i’m gonna answer my own question lol – sl love is different
[2010/08/17 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the point is, only one person can perceive Extropia and any other personality embodied by the same mind — and that’s you, Extie 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:56]  Serendipity Seraph: many digital persons here do not compartmentalize so much. After all so much is shared between iRL self and SL self
[2010/08/17 15:56]  Judith Underwood: for all the reasons above
[2010/08/17 15:56]  Camilla Delvalle: I’m wondering whether it is possible to find love in SL without telling about RL facts. Is RL knowledge necessary to build the trust or connection needed for a good relationship?
[2010/08/17 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: True, Seren.
[2010/08/17 15:57]  AbaBrukh Aabye: seems to me that one of the biggest differences, Judith, is that things happen much faster in SL than in RL
[2010/08/17 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think there are “digital persons”. There are just “persons”, in the sense that there is just one mind behind them.
[2010/08/17 15:57]  Judith Underwood: they do
[2010/08/17 15:57]  Judith Underwood: this is one of the differences
[2010/08/17 15:57]  Lem Skall: but I think that it is also possible that in SL people fall in love with what they imagine the other person to be, lacking all kind of signals that we otherwise get in RL
[2010/08/17 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Camilla, yes, if you’re an awesome actress 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:57]  Ataraxia Azemus: Camilla….it would vary from person to person, wouldn’t it? And what their expectations are.
[2010/08/17 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem — *exactly the same* happens in RL too!
[2010/08/17 15:57]  Judith Underwood: that is is thed superficial love i talked of lem
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Ataraxia Azemus: But usually, when people fall in love, they do want to bring that into their real lives. It’s only natural.
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: But there might not be Gwyn. They could be ‘pairsons’, one avatar shared among several people, who all work to ensure the characer comes across as a continuation of the same individual.
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We project what we think others to be, and fall in love with that projection.
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Judith Underwood: here today gone tomorrow
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, less in RL because we get all those other signals
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Serendipity Seraph: yes, but they build alternate shell/personas/persons to wrap that one being within
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, of course they could be, but the point is, nobody here can know that 🙂
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Ataraxia Azemus: Love is seeing someone for who they are, even when you don’t want to.
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Serendipity Seraph: true then those people jointly create another persona out in this world
[2010/08/17 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, it’s like claiming “I’m a tentacled green alien from Mars”. Nobody knows. All they can perceive is one mind.
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, aye on body language!
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Judith Underwood: aha there is the problem
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Ataraxia Azemus: …!
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Judith Underwood: love is not of the mind
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Ataraxia Azemus: They’re onto me!
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Lem Skall: Ata, you see people for what you see, not for what they are and sometimes you see just what you WANT to see
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How so, Judith? Please explain that!
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Ataraxia Azemus: Usually, Lem. Not always.
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: but the transcendent feelings, the energy, the lovely experiences are all happening within the mind of the creator iRL
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Judith Underwood: i mean that love cannot be grasped by the mind
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Do you think people are quicker to declare their love for someone here, compared to RL?
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “love is not of the mind”. Where is it from, then?
[2010/08/17 15:59]  Judith Underwood: the mind can judge
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Judith Underwood: the mind cannot feel
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What!
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Lem Skall: Extie, BTW, I love you
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: only the mind feels, Judith 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, I love you too
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Serendipity Seraph: the mind is all that experiences feeling
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Judith Underwood: no gwyn we differ totally there
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: I know you do Lem. It why, week after week, you sit opposite me looking so whistful.
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you’re unconscious, you don’t feel anything — nevertheless, your body is still sending sensations across your nerves 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Judith Underwood: the mind can never experience feelings
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Judith!
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:00]  Judith Underwood: it can think of themn, judge them
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s the pineal gland then? 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Judith Underwood: categorize them
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Judith’s understanding of the brain is woeful.
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Judith Underwood: and alphabetize them
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Woeful indeed.
[2010/08/17 16:01]  AbaBrukh Aabye: I think this depends on the definition of “midn”
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Judith Underwood: but it cannot feel them
[2010/08/17 16:01]  AbaBrukh Aabye: “mind” even
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Lem Skall: whistful? I didn’t edit my appearance to be whistful
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Judith Underwood: nnono
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m sorry, Judith. I think we abandoned the pineal gland in the 19th century… 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:01]  AbaBrukh Aabye: I totally disagree Judith
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Ataraxia Azemus: What’s whistful? Melodious wistfulness? :p
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Judith Underwood: i know you guys disagree
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Judith Underwood: it takes a long time to grasp this
[2010/08/17 16:01]  Judith Underwood: ahem
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Judith, if you were right, then uncounsciousness would not prevent the ability to feel.
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *unconsciousness.
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Ataraxia Azemus: I agree, insofar as you mean intellectual capacity thingie by mind, which I think you do.
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: The brain cannot feel, I will give you that. It has no sensation of pain. But it processes all other feelings. Whatever you feel, physical, emotional, it is felt in the brain. Or, should I say, the mind.
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Judith Underwood: the mind has much to do and runs the show
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Judith Underwood: yes ata
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What we call “feeling” is what the mind does after processing data.
[2010/08/17 16:02]  AbaBrukh Aabye: all feelings, including pain, are in the brain
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: The brain is where all feeling is processed. can we leave this?
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope so 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:02]  Judith Underwood: another topic for another day>
[2010/08/17 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m afraid there is not much to add on that, Judith, unless you have found something new that has escaped millions of thinkers in the past 2600 years… 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:03]  Judith Underwood: actually i have
[2010/08/17 16:03]  Judith Underwood: lolol
[2010/08/17 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: let’s hear it!
[2010/08/17 16:03]  Judith Underwood: noooooooo
[2010/08/17 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yeeeeees
[2010/08/17 16:03]  Judith Underwood: take a week or so
[2010/08/17 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: *grumps*
[2010/08/17 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: So in an Sl love affair there are the avatars…there are the primaries…and then there are the mental projections of the ‘one I love’. So, minimum of six ‘people’ in an SL relationship!?
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you see… if you’re right, Judith, than love in SL, being devoid of a physical body, cannot exist.
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Judith Underwood: no
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s right into the topic for oday!
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *today
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Judith Underwood: haha gwyn we’ll get to it later
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: and there is my projection of you projecting me. endless mirrors. 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Seren!)
[2010/08/17 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Strange loops.
[2010/08/17 16:04]  AbaBrukh Aabye: if so, I want an invitation to that discussion Judith!
[2010/08/17 16:05]  Ataraxia Azemus: Indranet.
[2010/08/17 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m very curious too, Judith 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: /me draws a finger slowly along a tingling strange loop in extie
[2010/08/17 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/08/17 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Hee!
[2010/08/17 16:05]  Judith Underwood: i have a mentor guys
[2010/08/17 16:05]  Lem Skall: now, btw, how much do people love someone for what that other person IS and how much do they love that someone for how the object of love makes them feel?
[2010/08/17 16:06]  Ataraxia Azemus: Mostly the latter, but the possibility of love exists.
[2010/08/17 16:06]  Judith Underwood: hmmmm
[2010/08/17 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A great question, Lem
[2010/08/17 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say that 99.9% of all people would say “the latter”
[2010/08/17 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: You love someone for what you believe them to be.
[2010/08/17 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or rather
[2010/08/17 16:06]  AbaBrukh Aabye: either a very trivial or a very basic question
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Lem Skall: right, Gwyn, so how does that fit with SL?
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they would feel the later, but they would lie ::)
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Luisa Bourgoin: there isa huge amount of hope inviolved
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes, Luisa. Always.
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Serendipity Seraph: yes. you love them for your value of the them as you perceive it.
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hope and expectations.
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Ataraxia Azemus: Sometimes it’s an issue of time. If you’ve been in a relationship with someone for many years, you’ll start to see more of them. Even if you don’t understand them, you’ll feel more comfortable and familiar.
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Seren
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Camilla Delvalle: Don’t you love them because of the connection, that you see that you are of the same kind?
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Ataraxia Azemus: But sometimes you can understand someone, and then you just fit.
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Serendipity Seraph: that is shared values, no?
[2010/08/17 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … which, in fact, is NOT my definition of love. (and well, to be honest, it’s not “my” definition at all)
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Ataraxia Azemus: No
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Love is famously blind. It causes you to greatly exaggerate someone’s worth. When you love someone, it is like they a a thousand times more wonderful than anyone else. But really he or she is just some average person not that much better or worse than tens of millions of others.
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Lem Skall: do you love someone for being funny or do you love that person because he makes you laugh?
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Luisa Bourgoin: a relationship deepens if you experience benefits that you didnt even hoped for
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: projections. You’re just feeling desire/passion towards the projection
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Judith Underwood: well to me it seems love doesn’t depend on what you get
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: we want to see certain values in another and project them. however that stage does not last so long.
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Judith Underwood: it’s what you give
[2010/08/17 16:08]  AbaBrukh Aabye: in love either in SL or RL, expectations and hope lead to jealousy and possissiveness, both of which are the seeds of the end of a love affair
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aha Judith
[2010/08/17 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly.
[2010/08/17 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And all you need to “give” really is a simple thing: make the other one happy. That’s all.
[2010/08/17 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: we all have all that mammalian pair bonding programming that makes us go gaga over a person to have sex with. 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:09]  Ataraxia Azemus: Most of the time, people enter a relationship wanting “A Relationship,” so they fall in love with their idea of someone.
[2010/08/17 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “bonding” is just that — two people mutually making the other one happy.
[2010/08/17 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the other face of the coin, Seren — sex 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh I could go gaga over you Seren my love.
[2010/08/17 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: but in more realized awake people we are a bit more careful to find real value in the other
[2010/08/17 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ataraxia, again, I’d claim that what you said is true in 99.9% of all cases.
[2010/08/17 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: you already are my darling. 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:10]  Rigrun Torok: For those who have seen the film avatar – as in that film, i feel that i am really entering a second life here; a better life; therefore love is very intense – more so than in real life; for me second life has become the reality and first life has become the dream
[2010/08/17 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: (Hums ‘Caught In A Bad Romance’ by Lady Gaga)
[2010/08/17 16:10]  Ataraxia Azemus: And I’d eagerly agree, Gwyn 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:10]  Serendipity Seraph: lol
[2010/08/17 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “reality”, “dream”. Hmm. Spot the differences 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: That sounds unhealthy, Rigrun.
[2010/08/17 16:10]  Luisa Bourgoin: Rigrun, your partner is here today?
[2010/08/17 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Well…SL love could one day become superior. I would like to think posthuman intimacy will be richer than human kind.
[2010/08/17 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: depends on what you mean by “intimacy”, Extie 😉
[2010/08/17 16:11]  Luisa Bourgoin: btw inside Avatar, love arrives unexspected
[2010/08/17 16:11]  Rigrun Torok: yes
[2010/08/17 16:11]  Lem Skall: Zo, unhealthy for the RL person, not for the SL person
[2010/08/17 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Fabulous sex of course. What else?
[2010/08/17 16:11]  AbaBrukh Aabye: one way that it’s superior is that it permits people to meet and fall in love across distances that would prevent them even from meeting in RL
[2010/08/17 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah! Ok. One day 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:12]  Lem Skall: Extie, is there intimacy in SL when the primary is logged out?
[2010/08/17 16:12]  AbaBrukh Aabye: and of course SL sex doesn’t require the same precautions as RL sex
[2010/08/17 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, long-distance romance exists since we have the written word, Aba….
[2010/08/17 16:12]  Judith Underwood: exactly extie
[2010/08/17 16:12]  Luisa Bourgoin: Lem: nobody knows…
[2010/08/17 16:12]  Serendipity Seraph: amazed delight plus sexual attraction/energy plus deep sharing => love?
[2010/08/17 16:12]  Ataraxia Azemus: I don’t know that that makes it superior. It’s kinda a gift/curse thing…
[2010/08/17 16:12]  Camilla Delvalle: I think love is more about that you feel that you can communicate very well with a person. Not about what skills or properties the other person owns.
[2010/08/17 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, Seren. That’s still all sex 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:12]  AbaBrukh Aabye: yes Gwyn but not to the same degree of intimacy
[2010/08/17 16:12]  Ataraxia Azemus: Communication, connection…knowing someone, yes.
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Aba, just because the written word can be a low-bandwidth medium.
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t think so. the shared values and deep delight part are not all sexual
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Sex in SL is never less than incredible. ‘Me moans in sheer ecstacy as multiple orgasms turn my body to liquid and I quivver in your arms going oooo love!’ Never ‘me lies bored and looks at the clock..only 5 minutes gone by, god seems like forever yawn…’.
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Ataraxia Azemus: lol
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: laughs
[2010/08/17 16:13]  AbaBrukh Aabye: agreed Ext
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right, Seren. Scratch “sexual” and replace with “pleasure”.
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Judith Underwood: that is cartoon sex not love extie
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: are there real orgasms in SL?
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Camilla Delvalle: Yes sex is much better in SL.
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Although, what the RL person is thinking is another matter;)
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since orgasm happens in the mind, sure, Seren 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: some have told me their primary comes when they come in SL even if their hands never leave the keyborad
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: *keyboard
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Judith Underwood: orgasm happens in the soul
[2010/08/17 16:14]  AbaBrukh Aabye: one thing that needs to be asked is does the exension of an SL relationship to RL make it better, or kill it?
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Judith Underwood: the heart
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the mind 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: depends on the expectations, Aba.
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Judith Underwood: oh gwyn
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Judith Underwood: haha
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I would just like to say, I did not impart that bit of knowledge.
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Judith Underwood: no
[2010/08/17 16:14]  AbaBrukh Aabye: quite so
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Ataraxia Azemus: If the connection’s there, the transition is wonderful.
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Ataraxia Azemus: If it’s not…ehn.
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: I thikn it is all over the map AbaBrukh
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Lem Skall: Camilla, that may say something about your RL sex life
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Judith, if you say “no”, you’ll have to tell me then where it is 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:14]  AbaBrukh Aabye: if one party has wrong expectations, it’s lethal
[2010/08/17 16:14]  Camilla Delvalle: I don’t think I could have an orgasm totally without any physical friction.
[2010/08/17 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Camilla: expectations 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:15]  Camilla Delvalle: Lem, I was joking after Extie had said somthing about sex in SL.
[2010/08/17 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can, trust me 🙂 Just train your mind 😉
[2010/08/17 16:15]  Judith Underwood: that’s for that long discussion gwyn
[2010/08/17 16:15]  Serendipity Seraph: who the primary is and how they are may not live up to who and how they are in SL or vice versa or they may indeed be quite similar in at least non-appearance and so on details
[2010/08/17 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww Judith!!
[2010/08/17 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: You could sit on a rumble pack and write a script to make it vibrate when engaged in SL sex, Camilla.
[2010/08/17 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Seren, because usually most people project upon the partner those unlimited amount of fantastic qualities… 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:15]  Judith Underwood: you see for us we talk we interact we are here together
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (we talked about that already)
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: definitely, Judith — sharing minds 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:16]  AbaBrukh Aabye: some people go through at least 1/2 dozen towels on their chairs during an SL sex session:)
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Judith Underwood: sharing emotions
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Judith Underwood: haha
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Aba
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Judith Underwood: dueling words
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: but if he relationship is deep in SL and you actually share deep values with one another I doubt you would be too disappointed if you met in RL
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Judith Underwood: i love it lurve it even
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Lem Skall: Aba, they need AC
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Ataraxia Azemus: Haha
[2010/08/17 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren, I would say, 99.9% of all people will be disappointed.
[2010/08/17 16:17]  Judith Underwood: meeting in rl isn’t important – what is important is the love in sl
[2010/08/17 16:17]  Ataraxia Azemus: I would say 99.9% are in love with the idea of their relationship.
[2010/08/17 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that still leaves one in thousand who won’t be disappointed, because they didn’t create any mental projections and have no expectations…
[2010/08/17 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well said, Ataraxia!
[2010/08/17 16:17]  AbaBrukh Aabye: I can say that in 50% of the time I’ve been delighted, and the other 50% it became a disaster
[2010/08/17 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s it
[2010/08/17 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: you can reduce thos 99.% by early connecting RL onto your SL presentation
[2010/08/17 16:17]  Camilla Delvalle: How many % would be disappointed if they met their RL love interest in SL?
[2010/08/17 16:17]  Ataraxia Azemus: Romantic love is rare, perhaps vanishingly so, and maybe not even worth pouring your energy into.
[2010/08/17 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really, Luisa. If that were so, nobody would get a divorce iRL 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Probably having sex in SL is not as good as it is in RL…But lovemaking…for me a great deal of lovemaking is emotional, mental..so I think making love with a cherished partner in SL can be very beautiful. As good as if you were in RL together..maybe not…but still of great worth.
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Judith Underwood: it is different
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Judith Underwood: extie
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Romantic love is just a HUGE bunch of expectations 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Judith Underwood: ti can be i mean
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: I am in that .1% then. I am not just in love w/ the idea of the relationship.
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you’re a very rare and precious person then, Seren 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Ataraxia Azemus: I mean the 0.01% of romantic love.
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (then again, I always thought so — Extie has a sound judgement!)
[2010/08/17 16:18]  Ataraxia Azemus: Whoops. Extra zero.
[2010/08/17 16:19]  Luisa Bourgoin: approximately 100.0% of all statistics get released to influence ongoing discussions
[2010/08/17 16:19]  Serendipity Seraph: /me wants a full body very sensitive haptic suit to hit the market. 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well no, The 0.1% are not really about romantic love, but understanding what love is (or, even better, what it is NOT)
[2010/08/17 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:19]  Luisa Bourgoin: wut?
[2010/08/17 16:19]  AbaBrukh Aabye: I’ve found that by the time I met in RL a person whom I got to know in SL, I knew them well enough that I was never disappointed in them, at least not right away
[2010/08/17 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m just grinning at your quite 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo..With all the practice we are getting in, Seren, our first fully ‘sensational’ lovemaking is going to be super-hot!
[2010/08/17 16:20]  Ataraxia Azemus: Romantic love is understanding, and being unable to misunderstand.
[2010/08/17 16:20]  AbaBrukh Aabye: however, the changes that take place after the meeting can be very disappointing
[2010/08/17 16:20]  Rigrun Torok: throw your statistics out the window and learn to feel
[2010/08/17 16:20]  Camilla Delvalle: Gwyn I don’t think the risk of being disappointed in RL is that big if you have a good connection in SL.
[2010/08/17 16:20]  AbaBrukh Aabye: agreed Cam
[2010/08/17 16:20]  Ataraxia Azemus: It can be a shock, though. It’s better to go by degrees.
[2010/08/17 16:20]  Camilla Delvalle: I mean not as big as 99,9%
[2010/08/17 16:20]  Serendipity Seraph: yep. would definitely stress test the suits. 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:20]  Ataraxia Azemus: Than to just, like, dive in.
[2010/08/17 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re lucky then, Camilla. Again, the same comment I made to Seren applies to you too: you’re special 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:20]  Ataraxia Azemus: But whatever works.
[2010/08/17 16:20]  AbaBrukh Aabye: if so then so am I Gwyn
[2010/08/17 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: quite so 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:21]  AbaBrukh Aabye: and sometimes, just as in swimming, it’s better to just take the plunge:)
[2010/08/17 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Well..anyone who falls for me and then meets my primary expecting to meet me would be very disappointed, because my primary has hardly any of the value I have. Of course, this is hypothetical because no lover of mine is meeting my primary. God, no.
[2010/08/17 16:21]  Judith Underwood: want to hear a quote from my mentor who couldn’t be here?
[2010/08/17 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: yes!
[2010/08/17 16:21]  AbaBrukh Aabye: coitenly
[2010/08/17 16:21]  Lem Skall: Extie, what values are you referring to? mental or physical?
[2010/08/17 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also mmmh it’s VERY hard to avoid to “fall in love” with your projections of what you hope your partner to be. Ver, very hard. But a few of us do that naturally. Others have to learn…
[2010/08/17 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Both.
[2010/08/17 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: some divide SL folks into those that can fully feel into and be within the avatar and those that cannont or do not. an imagination thing? suspension of disbelief? what?
[2010/08/17 16:22]  Judith Underwood: …an interesting, but simple topic….love that we “think” about is whatever we choose it to be, whether it be in sl or rl; it is our response to the thought of it that we believe can make it different, but the truth is that both sl and rl love as perceived are conditional due to our judgments…..pure love is not subject to judgment because it is limitless and can only be felt, therefore, pure love is the same in sl and rl, if we allow ourselves to “feel” it without judging it…..:)
[2010/08/17 16:22]  Luisa Bourgoin: does anybody owns a voting device, where we can anonymously poll between participants today: engaged into romance inside SL / not engaged so far ?
[2010/08/17 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie… again, that assumes that your partner “loves you” because they find that “value” important for them.
[2010/08/17 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: if your primary had none of them you could not embody them here in a believable way. So I think you may be mistaken
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I know who my partner does not love.
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Ataraxia Azemus: Why not just ask, Luisa?
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “pure love is limitless because it can be felt”. Hmmmmmmmmmmm
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Lem Skall: pure love is just something that poets made up
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m afraid I have to agree with Lem.
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Judith Underwood: that was the quote
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Camilla Delvalle: I think your primary has probably a lot of value Extie. At least your primary would have your intelligence, creativity and imagination, to begin with.
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, don’t be afraid, embrace it
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Ataraxia Azemus: Pure love is possible. But it’s hard.
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/08/17 16:23]  Luisa Bourgoin: so tell me where did all the small poets did come from? hmmm?
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Ataraxia Azemus: And people don’t like things that are hard.
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Some of it, perhaps.
[2010/08/17 16:24]  AbaBrukh Aabye: pure love is in The Princess Bride:)
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t believe in pure love beyond all judgment and knowing. I beleive in loving so deeply that the other’s well being is every bit as important as your own. but that does not come for free.
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “pure love” is just, very simply, the constant, spontaneous wish to make the other person happy, without expectations, hopes, or desires.
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Lem Skall: there is pure divorce however
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Ataraxia Azemus: Amour courtois. Sigh.
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: there you go, Seren. That’s it.
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Judith Underwood: i really have enjoyed this – i was hesitant to bring this topic to a group that is as intelligent and lively as this one is :))) but it’s been a hoot
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Luisa Bourgoin: +1 on Lem
[2010/08/17 16:24]  Ataraxia Azemus: Genuine love will ruin you. If it hasn’t, it will, and if it doesn’t, it was never there at all.
[2010/08/17 16:25]  Ataraxia Azemus: Love destroys you, and frees you into becoming someone bigger than you were.
[2010/08/17 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, even better love is when the other’s well-being is MORE important than yours, of course. But it’s a good first step when it’s “as important as yours”.
[2010/08/17 16:25]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, THAT is unhealthy
[2010/08/17 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nope, if both engage in it.
[2010/08/17 16:25]  Lem Skall: yes it is
[2010/08/17 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If only one of them does… drop the relationship as fast as possible!
[2010/08/17 16:26]  Lem Skall: unhealthy for both
[2010/08/17 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re not thinking, Lem 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:26]  Lem Skall: I am ONLY thinking
[2010/08/17 16:26]  Ataraxia Azemus: An unconditional wish to bring happiness to another is the healthiest you can get :p
[2010/08/17 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[2010/08/17 16:26]  Serendipity Seraph: if it is equally important then there is no separation to speak of. whether you scratch your back or your arm at the moment doesn’t matter so much
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem…do you think you are missing out, not having a romantic relartionship in SL? Or is it just not all that important to you?
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree it’s a wonderful first step, Seren!
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Lem Skall: not important to me
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: have to be careful of too sacrificial a love. that can really ruin all involved
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not talking about “sacrificial” lol
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Ataraxia Azemus: Happiness shouldn’t come at any great cost
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note also that “making the other person happy” doesn’t mean “agreeing with them all the time” 😉
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Judith Underwood: sacrifice doesn’t enter into sl love or rl either for that matter
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … because MOST people have NO clue about what makes them happy 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:27]  AbaBrukh Aabye: the nature of the relationship can be important
[2010/08/17 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: this more or less leads to better?
[2010/08/17 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “sacrifice” is not happiness — ever
[2010/08/17 16:28]  Judith Underwood: you must get past the fear of not being “rational”
[2010/08/17 16:28]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, forgetting yourself and not putting yourself before everyone else is unhealthy
[2010/08/17 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You must get past the fear. Period.
[2010/08/17 16:28]  Judith Underwood: very well i agreed gwyn
[2010/08/17 16:28]  AbaBrukh Aabye: for a polyamour, like me, love is a very varied phenomenon
[2010/08/17 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rather the contrary, Lem 🙂 Being selfish is what lead to the world being what it is today 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 8and what it will continue to be!)
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Lem Skall: even self sacrifice is not really for the others but for the self image
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: noooo cut the word “self-sacrifice”
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sacrifice does NOT come into it!
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes. Sacrifice is egotism.
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: neither comes submission or subservience
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Ataraxia said.
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Precisely 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Ataraxia Azemus: Unless you’re into that…
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ❤ Ataracia
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Lem Skall: putting someone else before yourself IS sacrifice
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Ataraxia Azemus: 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Judith Underwood: fabrications of the mind
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Ataraxia Azemus: ❤
[2010/08/17 16:29]  Serendipity Seraph: forgetting yourself is the FLOW place. it is wondrous
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, you’re confusing “making others happy” with “sacrifice and submission”
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s NOT the same.
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s the opposite!
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Judith Underwood: what’s love got to do with it
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Ataraxia Azemus: No. Not really. Sacrifice would be forsaking your own happiness for someone else’s sake.
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Camilla Delvalle: I think (theoretically) that in true love, the two would be “the same” or somehing, and in that case it would not be fitting to value the other than oneself, because both are of equal worth.
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Judith Underwood: oh camilla yes yes yes
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Ataraxia Azemus: Wishing to make someone happy makes you happy. Or it should.
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: What’s love, but a secondhand emotion?
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Luisa Bourgoin: we focus onto “couples”. the toppic of “love” is about “family”, consider this
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Ataraxia Azemus: It’s an alignment of values.
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, making someone happy is ok, but you were saying something about putting someone else’s happiness above your own
[2010/08/17 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Camilla, yes!
[2010/08/17 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, yes.
[2010/08/17 16:31]  Judith Underwood: pokes rig
[2010/08/17 16:31]  Lem Skall: yes what?
[2010/08/17 16:31]  AbaBrukh Aabye: have we considered the nature of polyamor – loving more than one other person at the same time?
[2010/08/17 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the *goal* 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:31]  Judith Underwood: wake the hell up lover
[2010/08/17 16:31]  Judith Underwood: rofl
[2010/08/17 16:31]  Rigrun Torok: what what
[2010/08/17 16:31]  Serendipity Seraph: love not second hand but best if bounced back and forth between the lovers endlessly
[2010/08/17 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aba, sure — think of a mother, she loves her kids equally 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:31]  AbaBrukh Aabye: and the same can be true in romantic love:)
[2010/08/17 16:32]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, no mother loves her children equally, that is a fallacy
[2010/08/17 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: no, not always equally …
[2010/08/17 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Seren! It takes two to Tango! You can’t have a “relationship” unless BOTH have this spontaneous, constant wish to make the other one happy.
[2010/08/17 16:32]  Camilla Delvalle: I believe in the possibility of polyamour.
[2010/08/17 16:32]  Judith Underwood: i don’t actually “think” about making rig happy
[2010/08/17 16:32]  Judith Underwood: it just is
[2010/08/17 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Judith!
[2010/08/17 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s the way it should be 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:33]  Rigrun Torok: true
[2010/08/17 16:33]  Serendipity Seraph: /me experiences bursting delight and joy every time I see extie
[2010/08/17 16:33]  Ataraxia Azemus: Yes
[2010/08/17 16:33]  Judith Underwood: i understand seren
[2010/08/17 16:33]  Ataraxia Azemus: Hey
[2010/08/17 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s good, Seren — rejoicing is a powerful emotion!
[2010/08/17 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: a very altruistic one, too.
[2010/08/17 16:33]  Ataraxia Azemus: This just occurred to me. I have no idea.
[2010/08/17 16:33]  Judith Underwood: which the mind cannot judge gwyn sorry
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Then there are alts. Person A is committed to person B in a monogomous relationship. Person C likes to sleep around. Person C is the alternative avatar of the primary of person A. Is that breaking the terms of the relationship or not?
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Judith Underwood: had to say it
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Judith Underwood: but extie that’s not love
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Ataraxia Azemus: How long do SL relationships typically last, would you say?
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha why say that the mind “judges”? The mind works best when it does NOT judge; but training it to drop the constant judgement is very very hard.
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: which part?
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Judith Underwood: aha gwyn
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Serendipity Seraph: depends on the relationship boundaries/agreements. sex alone is not love. love is not necessarily only for one at a time.
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Judith Underwood: none of the above
[2010/08/17 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia, the answer is always the same. Would A’s break of commitment make B and C unhappy?
[2010/08/17 16:35]  Judith Underwood: love has no boundaries
[2010/08/17 16:35]  Luisa Bourgoin: its argueable if A and C counting as two different people
[2010/08/17 16:35]  Judith Underwood: no agreements
[2010/08/17 16:35]  Judith Underwood: that
[2010/08/17 16:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Absolute love has no boundaries — I agree
[2010/08/17 16:35]  Extropia DaSilva: what?
[2010/08/17 16:35]  Judith Underwood: yes gwyn we’re more alike than not
[2010/08/17 16:35]  Lem Skall: what IS absolute love?
[2010/08/17 16:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To answer your question, Extie: Would A’s break of commitment make B and C unhappy?
[2010/08/17 16:36]  Luisa Bourgoin: absolute is without constraints
[2010/08/17 16:36]  Judith Underwood: ya just can’t quantifiy this
[2010/08/17 16:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To answer Lem’s: spontaneous, constant wish to make others happy; without expectations, hopes, frustrations
[2010/08/17 16:36]  Judith Underwood: categorize or alphabetize like i sed hehe
[2010/08/17 16:36]  Lem Skall: there can not be any constraints there is at least the temporal constraint
[2010/08/17 16:36]  Ataraxia Azemus: Real love is…being unable to trap someone in your ideas of who they are. Seeing them, knowing them, and adoring them anyway, no matter who they become.
[2010/08/17 16:36]  Serendipity Seraph: your question is really the separation befween two alts of the same primary
[2010/08/17 16:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Possibly, in our vision of the world, Lem 😉
[2010/08/17 16:37]  Serendipity Seraph: in world it is no more cheating than an in world relationship is cheating on iRL partner
[2010/08/17 16:37]  Judith Underwood: very good thought ata
[2010/08/17 16:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If by “adoring” you mean “constantly wishing to make them happy”, Ataraxia, I agree 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:37]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah. Depends on whether it is an active or a doll I think.
[2010/08/17 16:37]  Serendipity Seraph: if the A/C is cheating than any SL relationship is cheating a monogamous iRL relationship
[2010/08/17 16:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me notices that Extie hasn’t answered my question 😉
[2010/08/17 16:37]  Luisa Bourgoin: loving for what they are, and including them changing
[2010/08/17 16:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes, Luisa, because we are ALWAYS changing. All the time.
[2010/08/17 16:37]  Ataraxia Azemus: More like…appreciating every aspect of who they are. But I think you might mean the same thing. 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully so, Ataraxia 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:38]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, you’re a hopeless romantic
[2010/08/17 16:38]  Judith Underwood: lem you should be one
[2010/08/17 16:38]  Judith Underwood: it’s quite liberating
[2010/08/17 16:38]  Lem Skall: why should I?
[2010/08/17 16:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha no; I’m a Buddhist, remember? 😉 We all train to be what you call “hopeless romantics” 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:38]  Lem Skall: meh
[2010/08/17 16:38]  Judith Underwood: to free yourself from the constrictions of your mind’s judgements
[2010/08/17 16:38]  Ataraxia Azemus: Because the foolish knight is the greatest thing.
[2010/08/17 16:39]  Lem Skall: I LOVE the constrictions of my mind
[2010/08/17 16:39]  Luisa Bourgoin: abandom old fart mode!
[2010/08/17 16:39]  Camilla Delvalle: What if C would seduce A?
[2010/08/17 16:39]  Serendipity Seraph: you can love someone but no longer be able to be with them the same way if they, you, or both of you change in certain ways
[2010/08/17 16:39]  Judith Underwood: of course you do because you know nothing else lem dearest
[2010/08/17 16:39]  Judith Underwood: hahahaha
[2010/08/17 16:39]  Ataraxia Azemus: Serendipity, that’s true. And typical of truly loving someone.
[2010/08/17 16:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren-.. we change all the time.
[2010/08/17 16:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s impossible NOT to.
[2010/08/17 16:40]  Lem Skall: so you all love because it makes YOU happy, not because it makes the other happy
[2010/08/17 16:40]  Serendipity Seraph: I cannot stop loving someone I ever loved fully. I may not be able to be with them as lovers but the love doesn’t fully go away.
[2010/08/17 16:40]  Judith Underwood: it makes the world happy
[2010/08/17 16:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Lem. That’s not love 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you put into that ‘feeling’ the expectation of YOU feeling better, it’s notlove — it’s just another subtle ego trap.
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Judith Underwood: so have we decided that sl love is better or different
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, but that is what Judith is saying, so for instance what I am missing by not having love is not not making someone happy but not being happy myself
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Extropia DaSilva: It is better.
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Ataraxia Azemus: Love has been a very painful experience for me. But when it’s genuine, it’s a good thing to do, if only because there’s a little less separation in the world.
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Serendipity Seraph: I think love is love
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Seren — it’s teh distinction of what love is, and the acessory things like sex, pelasure, desire, lust, joy….
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Judith Underwood: it is better for me
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Judith Underwood: for sure
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Judith Underwood: omg i have to go
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Judith Underwood: damn
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Well…my time is up!
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Ataraxia Azemus: Bye Judith!
[2010/08/17 16:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wish that one day you understand that it works the other way round, Lem 🙂
[2010/08/17 16:42]  Serendipity Seraph: although if a love turned into a total villian I suppose I might lose that love
[2010/08/17 16:42]  AbaBrukh Aabye: me too actually
[2010/08/17 16:42]  Extropia DaSilva: THanks for that topic Judith. It was a good one!
[2010/08/17 16:42]  Judith Underwood: this was great fun
[2010/08/17 16:42]  Judith Underwood: a change of pace i guess
[2010/08/17 16:42]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: WHY DID THEY BURY AND BURN!!?
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