[2010/08/10 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2010/08/10 15:36] Serendipity Seraph: hey hey. *kisses extropia and snuggles into her and into K’s well placed foot as well.* 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: In the middle of the 20th Century, humankind acquired the technological capacity to destroy almost all life on Earth. By the middle of the 21st Century, humankind may well acquire the technological capacity to create life from scratch. Which of these powers should give us most cause for concern?
[2010/08/10 15:37] Vorren Voltaire: always part of the fun. seat roulette
[2010/08/10 15:37] Lem Skall: but I am not dorry
[2010/08/10 15:37] Khannea Suntzu: /me wiggles voraciousl
[2010/08/10 15:37] Lem Skall: sorry
[2010/08/10 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: /me finds AerySoul on DeviantArt. . .
[2010/08/10 15:37] Joy Larkspur: there is already tremendous power on it’s populations now…
[2010/08/10 15:37] Luisa Bourgoin: the toppic covers replication of life, which popped up upon my most recent cinema list: http://www.moonthemovie.com/
[2010/08/10 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: Well..
[2010/08/10 15:38] Lem Skall: depends what creating life means
[2010/08/10 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha. Is in vitro insemination “creating life”? 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:39] Camilla Delvalle: Engineer specific bacteria.
[2010/08/10 15:39] Luisa Bourgoin: purpose of creation?
[2010/08/10 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: From scratch?
[2010/08/10 15:39] Khannea Suntzu: Hmmm lets start by scrutinizing concern versus a global population of humans that by and large assume they’ll be dead in 40 years anywat, and right now couldn’t be bothered with voting let alone Von Neuman achines and expontial curves, As i – most jews in concentation camps walked in the gaschambers *relieved* because they knew it would quickly be over and done with.
[2010/08/10 15:39] Lem Skall: create cells? organs? organisms of what complexity? and what intelligence?
[2010/08/10 15:39] Serendipity Seraph: no, IVF is not creating life
[2010/08/10 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so let’s exclude that.
[2010/08/10 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is tailoring specied that would NEVER have been created through natural selection “creating life”?
[2010/08/10 15:40] Luisa Bourgoin: the ingredients are human, the results are human. pretty much not artificial
[2010/08/10 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *species
[2010/08/10 15:40] Case Wrangler: Khannea, what do you mean, “As i”?
[2010/08/10 15:40] Extropia DaSilva: No limits. This can encompass everything from Craig Ventor’s recent triumph (which is not quite life from scratch) to a whole biosphere of new lifeforms, some more advances than humans.
[2010/08/10 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Examples of species that we have “tailored”: cats, dogs, cows, sheep….
[2010/08/10 15:40] Khannea Suntzu: “as most jews’ mistype
[2010/08/10 15:40] Serendipity Seraph: much more for creating life than its destruction. DNA toolkits are more and more amazing and tremendous tech for our future including for nanotech. Of course you can abuse most anything
[2010/08/10 15:40] Case Wrangler: /me nods
[2010/08/10 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have been doing that for millenia.
[2010/08/10 15:41] Serendipity Seraph: but compared to nuclear weapons I am not worried about our life creating abilities
[2010/08/10 15:41] Camilla Delvalle: Are we creating life when putting together parts of various organisms to a new one, or is it necessary to build it from atoms to be called creation of life?
[2010/08/10 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fcat, if we weren’t so good at artificial selection, Darwin would never have found out that nature does the same, just with different goals 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha Camilla.
[2010/08/10 15:41] Lem Skall: wasn’t bringing alien animals into an ecosystem the same thing?
[2010/08/10 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You touch the very point 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: I think the dangers of something that can destroy life is self-evident. So for that reason I think there is less cause for concern in that area.
[2010/08/10 15:41] Khannea Suntzu: Anyone with half a sense knows that creating replicators will instantaneously result in humans ying – directly or indirectly or by proxy (by driving up energy prices)
[2010/08/10 15:41] Khannea Suntzu: dying
[2010/08/10 15:41] Serendipity Seraph: bio weapons are hard to perfect. delivery and limitation of effective area and right degree of lethality at right speed. There is a reason we didn’t and don’t have a bio cold war
[2010/08/10 15:41] Vorren Voltaire: I’m more concerned about the little life forms like bacteria than I would be the mutant killer kanagaroos and stuff like that
[2010/08/10 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, exactly. What about bringing foreign life into a habitat? We do that all the time. Look at eucalyptus… or rabbits
[2010/08/10 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: We have some very annoying invasive species where I live.
[2010/08/10 15:42] Luisa Bourgoin: bees
[2010/08/10 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vorren, that’s because you’re wise 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: Did you know, all the plants you see in adverts for Hawaii are actually alien species?
[2010/08/10 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: Rasberry Crazy Ants!
[2010/08/10 15:42] Lem Skall: and viruses move globally now with airflight
[2010/08/10 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not surprised at all, Extie!
[2010/08/10 15:42] Camilla Delvalle: I would be concerned about mutant killer kangaroos, Vorren. 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Camilla
[2010/08/10 15:42] Daurt Houston: Is the issue weapons? I think its more about the “haves” and “have nots”. Some parents will be able to “enchance” their children, and other will not be able too.
[2010/08/10 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: There are virtually no native plants left.
[2010/08/10 15:43] Serendipity Seraph: foreign life? happens all the time. bacteria are promiscious as hell. they trade huge chunks of genetic material. Is why they mutate so quickly
[2010/08/10 15:43] Joy Larkspur: they create new goods
[2010/08/10 15:43] Joy Larkspur: gm foods
[2010/08/10 15:43] Shorahmin Femto: Greg Bear used a term “neo-morphs” forms that didn’t exit before, that’s part of it
[2010/08/10 15:43] Archmage Atlantis: My favorite example, pythons in the Florida Everglades…..And now tropical diseases that haven’t ever been seen here before.
[2010/08/10 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the question is not really if we have the ability to “create life”; we have been doing that for eons. The issue is more if we can assemble genes from scatch, create something absolutely nw, and do that *in a single generation*
[2010/08/10 15:43] Luisa Bourgoin: mutation makes a key. I mean, nuclear weapons okay, but they are controlled
[2010/08/10 15:43] Serendipity Seraph: as soon as we got worldwide travel you had diseases speading all over the place not seen in those places before
[2010/08/10 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Emphasis on “single generation”
[2010/08/10 15:44] Camilla Delvalle: I’m not sure if creating the life in a single generation would be necessary.
[2010/08/10 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: why not?
[2010/08/10 15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We even have now diseases in space! Every time an astronaut sneezes at the ISS; we’re spreading virus into outer space…
[2010/08/10 15:44] Camilla Delvalle: I’m just not sure. 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:44] Serendipity Seraph: life as we know it is pretty hard. new life would have to survive in an environment of lots of eons trained stuff looking for lunch
[2010/08/10 15:44] Catz Jewell: sorry lag
[2010/08/10 15:44] JerryDon Lane: sorry….lol
[2010/08/10 15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Camilla, then… we do have that ability now, and have had it for several millenoa 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome, Catz & Don
[2010/08/10 15:45] Archmage Atlantis: The containment of nuclear weapons is not at given, however.
[2010/08/10 15:45] Scarp Godenot: The number of ways in which we can destroy ourselves will only increase with mastering the genetic code. ha ha. So we will be more srewed in the futue than now.
[2010/08/10 15:45] Lem Skall: can we create life based on silicon?
[2010/08/10 15:45] Scarp Godenot: screwed
[2010/08/10 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: NOW you’re asking good questions, Lem!
[2010/08/10 15:45] Serendipity Seraph: the ways we can succeed also increase.
[2010/08/10 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: We already have, Lem.
[2010/08/10 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have? 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:45] Camilla Delvalle: But what if we assemble genes from scratch, and then make a life-form in a few generations? Or maybe that’s not possible?
[2010/08/10 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We certainly have cyborgs 😉
[2010/08/10 15:46] Lem Skall: Gwyn, I always asked good questions ;P
[2010/08/10 15:46] Camilla Delvalle: Gwyneth, virus in space sounds scary.
[2010/08/10 15:46] Scarp Godenot: Life must replicate itself in onder to be life, so we haven’t created life yet.
[2010/08/10 15:46] Luisa Bourgoin: silicon probably does not make good building material
[2010/08/10 15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, we don’t have the answer to that, Camilla, we almost always start from an existing organism and just add the genes we need/want to experiment with…
[2010/08/10 15:46] Daurt Houston: Lem, can we creat symbiotes, body helpers or nanites with silicon. I think that’s one direction we’re headed.
[2010/08/10 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: No I do not mean that. I mean the AL stuff that began with Conway’s Life cellular automata, onto Tierra and that recent one whose name I do not remember.
[2010/08/10 15:46] Serendipity Seraph: any day now..
[2010/08/10 15:46] Lem Skall: Luisa, alost as good as carbon
[2010/08/10 15:46] Khannea Suntzu: Many poeple think the emetrgence ‘of one siniste species; Thats the silly mistake of Terminator movies – it all keeps hammering on the dumb terminators – which were in effet a hyperspecialized model of robot. When republicators emerge they may very well be extremely diversified. IN FACT what if the emergence of replicators consists of a base model with snapon limbs, appendages, sensory organs, tools? You you compete with microforms an inch long that replicate faster than any animal species>\
[2010/08/10 15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, tell us about silicon-based life forms 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:46] JerryDon Lane: We have created DNA, a building block of life
[2010/08/10 15:46] Serendipity Seraph: AL does reproduce
[2010/08/10 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: I software based artificial life.
[2010/08/10 15:47] Khannea Suntzu: do you..
[2010/08/10 15:47] JerryDon Lane: AI certainly does
[2010/08/10 15:47] Vorren Voltaire: I’m not worried about spreading the cold to space. Even if it gets to another biosphere someplace out there, our advertisments for cold and flu remedies will precede them by at least a few centuries
[2010/08/10 15:47] Khannea Suntzu: HOW do yuo
[2010/08/10 15:47] Archmage Atlantis: Could we return to the original question, whether one form of disaster is better than another….seems to me both require attention
[2010/08/10 15:47] Scarp Godenot: We need to make things out of aluminum, next to oxygen and silicon, the most abundant element on earth.
[2010/08/10 15:47] Khannea Suntzu: What is more depressing – dying screaming? Or dying screaming replaced by monsters?
[2010/08/10 15:48] Scarp Godenot: ha ha ha Khannea
[2010/08/10 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “artificial life” is applying artificial rules to what life is to confound the question 😉
[2010/08/10 15:48] Lem Skall: Gwyn and I are talking about silicon-based life as opposed to carbon-based, not about AI using silicon chips
[2010/08/10 15:48] Serendipity Seraph: there are bugs out there now that are deadly and that we don’t have antibiotics for. some of them are mutants that have developed that immunity to our antibiotics
[2010/08/10 15:48] Shorahmin Femto: it’s not clear that either is a disaster yet
[2010/08/10 15:48] JerryDon Lane: Please define life
[2010/08/10 15:48] Daurt Houston: To be clear, what the current science has done is re-create life. They assembled the DNA by synthisis, but they themselves don’t know what all of the sequences do.
[2010/08/10 15:48] Serendipity Seraph: I disagree gwyn. same rules, different substrate
[2010/08/10 15:48] Case Wrangler: Yeah.. look at what Monsanto is doing by making crops designed to dominate other species.
[2010/08/10 15:48] Khannea Suntzu: Me I don’t give a hoot. I want humanity GONE. Preferably upgraded. But as fr as I am concerned the best case scenario is baseline humanity in reservations A S A P
[2010/08/10 15:49] Daurt Houston: The expression of the DNA in the cell is still not clear.
[2010/08/10 15:49] Shorahmin Femto: given the right temp/pressure/ph environment silicon would work fine
[2010/08/10 15:49] Luisa Bourgoin: could the constroction of artificial life develop a moment of rapid self development, without external aid?
[2010/08/10 15:49] Serendipity Seraph: actualy they are not doing this Case to the best of my knowledge. it is rumor
[2010/08/10 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Lem. That’s what I meant. In my high school days, it had been scientifically proved that although silicium shares a lot of characteristics with carbon, you cannot create the whole cycle necessary for life using just silicium — in the universe, at least, anything that would fall under the label of “life” would necessarily be carbon-based. Alas, science evolves, and this might not be true any longer, so I was curious…
[2010/08/10 15:49] Serendipity Seraph: some kinds of AL loose on the net would be a bad day
[2010/08/10 15:49] JerryDon Lane: nothing can without external aid,
[2010/08/10 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: Yes. What Venter did is not life from scratch. he assembled a DNA string from raw materials and used a modified cell as a factory replicate his DNA. True life from scratch would be to construct a cell from raw chemical materials as well.
[2010/08/10 15:50] Luisa Bourgoin: Monsanto seems to limit the lifetime of their products. no 2nd generation crops (which would hit their own market segment)
[2010/08/10 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea, can we have those reservations in deep space? 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:50] Khannea Suntzu: Naive as hell JerryDone
[2010/08/10 15:50] JerryDon Lane: How so?
[2010/08/10 15:50] Khannea Suntzu: I am helping make a model of one as we speak.
[2010/08/10 15:50] Camilla Delvalle: Then Monsanto products are not life?
[2010/08/10 15:50] Lem Skall: and does life have to be based on DNA? Can’t we invent something completely new?
[2010/08/10 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: No. The Terminator gene was added by Monsanto because of fears that the GM crops would out-reproduce everything else.
[2010/08/10 15:50] Camilla Delvalle: I mean Monsanto crops are not life?
[2010/08/10 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh love that, Camilla!
[2010/08/10 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: excellent, excellent question, Camilla 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:51] JerryDon Lane: They are life, but Monsanto is creating them. They are not creating themselves
[2010/08/10 15:51] Serendipity Seraph: they are engineered crops. So? we have been engineering crops and lifestock for thousands of years at one level or another
[2010/08/10 15:51] Khannea Suntzu: It will be very easy to make diversified lifeforms, genetic or robotic, that can harvest raw materials, print plastic parts and print hive s- and then have smart feedback loops to edit behavior and functionality – i.e. evolve. Twenty years tops.
[2010/08/10 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But if they fail at one item — “reproducing” — they’re not “life” as per definition 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:51] Archmage Atlantis: They are as much life as any other plant is
[2010/08/10 15:51] Extropia DaSilva: Like real crops are not the result of human intervention:)
[2010/08/10 15:51] Luisa Bourgoin: Jerry, is some godlike aiding hand necessary … that’s a religious question
[2010/08/10 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear, Seren.
[2010/08/10 15:51] JerryDon Lane: IOW, they are not self propagating
[2010/08/10 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, actually, they are! All “real crops” are the product of man-made artificial selection. Nature had no hand in them 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And have been so for… 10,000 years
[2010/08/10 15:52] Archmage Atlantis: I doubt they will “fail” to reproduce
[2010/08/10 15:52] Case Wrangler: You are correct and I was mistaken, Serendipity. Monsanto did not necessarily design crops to dominate others alone. Their intent was that their crops would survive because their insecide would kill other crops and their crops were designed to be resistant to it.
[2010/08/10 15:52] Vorren Voltaire: in theory
[2010/08/10 15:52] JerryDon Lane: No, not some god-like critter……Just a creator as in a lab…..To think anything else is not to understand the laws of science
[2010/08/10 15:52] Case Wrangler: However, it has been found to be mixing with crops in Mexico.
[2010/08/10 15:52] Extropia DaSilva: GM does show how there is concern over taking nature’s toolkit and experimenting with it. I can imagine the ability to make synthetic lifeforms will worry some people.
[2010/08/10 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “concern” hmm
[2010/08/10 15:53] Case Wrangler: (Not necessarily intentionally designed to do so)
[2010/08/10 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we split atoms!
[2010/08/10 15:53] Archmage Atlantis: Yes, that is the point Case
[2010/08/10 15:53] Khannea Suntzu: If I can I will make them. An then let them loose. Voral +5 bullfrogs.
[2010/08/10 15:53] Khannea Suntzu: I will smile as I play my little game of SimGenocide
[2010/08/10 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: surely splitting atoms is WAY more ‘concering’ than playing with a few molecules 😉
[2010/08/10 15:53] Serendipity Seraph: without GM we would not have been able to feed this many people (current earth pop) as well as we have. so it is not black or white
[2010/08/10 15:53] Scarp Godenot: Monsanto also designs their 2nd generation seeds to be infertile, so people have to buy new seeds every year instead of taking part of the corp as seed.
[2010/08/10 15:53] Camilla Delvalle: yeah, what if we split all atoms so that there are none left?
[2010/08/10 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Did anyone answer Camilla’s question though?
[2010/08/10 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Are non-reproducible, man-made crops “life”? 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:54] Serendipity Seraph: lol
[2010/08/10 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins @ Camilla 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:54] Case Wrangler: Yes.. just as a Donkey is life
[2010/08/10 15:54] JerryDon Lane: Any plant is life, lol
[2010/08/10 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: Most hybrid crops don’t make good seed anyhow.
[2010/08/10 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good answer, Case 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:54] Extropia DaSilva: OK…well who here thinks our nuclear weapons are the things that should worry us most? Or am I right in thinking their danger is so obvious tight controls are a given?
[2010/08/10 15:54] Case Wrangler: Heh..
[2010/08/10 15:54] Daurt Houston: Not true, Scarp. Its by contract, according to the farmer who leases some of my land.
[2010/08/10 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, what you’re saying is that “life” defies definition. We can always come up with exceptions.
[2010/08/10 15:54] Luisa Bourgoin: if you can bake bread of them, they are surely “live enough”
[2010/08/10 15:55] Catz Jewell: no, Iran scares me more
[2010/08/10 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: BTW this is not a debate about Monsanto or GM per se.
[2010/08/10 15:55] JerryDon Lane: But….You guys have to define life…..How do we know when something is alive?
[2010/08/10 15:55] Vorren Voltaire: life, just a dead end, but since they don’t need to self propogate anymore the genes are passed to the next generation
[2010/08/10 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: We done that one already:)
[2010/08/10 15:55] Khannea Suntzu: IRAN LOL, a country with half the industrial capacity and onetenth the wealth of Belgium.
[2010/08/10 15:55] Serendipity Seraph: sure. is an infertile creature life?
[2010/08/10 15:55] Luisa Bourgoin: “Monsanto Donkey Bread!” get ’em, while they are hot!
[2010/08/10 15:55] Catz Jewell: and some nut job runnin it
[2010/08/10 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so one criterium for “life” is cut out of the long list hehe. What other criteria can we drop? 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:55] Khannea Suntzu: Yah well APPELE
[2010/08/10 15:56] Shorahmin Femto: and 1000 times the malice
[2010/08/10 15:56] Lem Skall: donkeys can reproduce, mules can’t
[2010/08/10 15:56] JerryDon Lane: We won’t know unless we define it, Ser…..:-)
[2010/08/10 15:56] Khannea Suntzu: Come ON Iran is on the verge of collapse.
[2010/08/10 15:56] Extropia DaSilva: I do not believe there is a definition of ‘life’.
[2010/08/10 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You don’t know many Belgians, Shorah…. 😉
[2010/08/10 15:56] Serendipity Seraph: yet we have plenty of mules
[2010/08/10 15:56] Archmage Atlantis: But I have an example in my own garden…….my hybrid morning glories self seeded…..the last generation where unhealty dwarves, but they managed to set seed, The current 3rd gen is quite aggressive
[2010/08/10 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: Nuclear weapons are a well-understood danger, and there’s nothing subtle about them. But biotech has many possibilities for uses and abuses and unintended consequenses.
[2010/08/10 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good answer too, Extie 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:56] Case Wrangler: Actually, Vorren, there are advantages to reproduction instead of live continuing for longer periods. With reproduction we are able to change more often.
[2010/08/10 15:56] Khannea Suntzu: *sinister drumroll* HUBERTUS BIGEND
[2010/08/10 15:56] Vorren Voltaire: what if we cloned a particular mule though
[2010/08/10 15:56] Ataraxia Azemus: Life–you don’t know from Adam, but you know it when you see it.
[2010/08/10 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Ataraxia
[2010/08/10 15:57] Case Wrangler: Thank you, Lem.. I thought “Donkey” looked a little funny.. don’t make a Donkey out of me
[2010/08/10 15:57] Lem Skall: still, what is “creating life from scratch”?
[2010/08/10 15:57] Scarp Godenot: For Daurt: http://www.ethicalinvesting.com/monsanto/terminator.shtml
[2010/08/10 15:57] JerryDon Lane: Life is like pornography…..I can’t define it bt I know it when I see it??
[2010/08/10 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m smiling because I asked this stupid question today — totally unrelated to the topic, btw — why is it that when you look at a chair and you look at a person, you’re always certain that a chair has no mind, but a person has? 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:57] Camilla Delvalle: The cells in a mule can replicate though.
[2010/08/10 15:57] Zobeid Zuma: In “The End of the Dream” by Phillip Wylie, a big chunk of the world’s population was killed indirectly by a bio-weapon called ‘rice blast’.
[2010/08/10 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: I believe there is no single event seperating life from mere matter. Rather, life gradually emerged out of a system of increasing complexity, and pinpointing any specific moment as the spark of creation is just arbitary.
[2010/08/10 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, JerryDon
[2010/08/10 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Extie!
[2010/08/10 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s just one of our many “definitions”
[2010/08/10 15:58] Luisa Bourgoin: a chair avatar wearing a shoulder pet could fool you today
[2010/08/10 15:58] Serendipity Seraph: life as anti-entropy?
[2010/08/10 15:58] Khannea Suntzu: Creating lifeform from scratch – and then it being able to survive in the wild, means pretty soon anyone nutcase with a garage can do it, and five years later these lifeforms wont merely survive, they wil thrive.
[2010/08/10 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: See? Gwyn says I am right. So I am.
[2010/08/10 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (actually, I had that in mind when asking that question, Luisa!)
[2010/08/10 15:58] JerryDon Lane: LOL…KK
[2010/08/10 15:58] Case Wrangler: Gwyneth, because if you sit on a chair and rock, you don’t get another chair nine months later.
[2010/08/10 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: neither do I if I sit on a mule, Case 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:59] Case Wrangler: touché
[2010/08/10 15:59] Serendipity Seraph: depends on whose chair and why I am sitting there. 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but mules have minds 😉
[2010/08/10 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Seren
[2010/08/10 15:59] JerryDon Lane: Can we define life as something that eats foods and reproduces?
[2010/08/10 15:59] Khannea Suntzu: /me wiggles feet
[2010/08/10 15:59] Shorahmin Femto: do I detect indirection here?
[2010/08/10 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No.
[2010/08/10 15:59] Zobeid Zuma: Of course, The End of the Dream also predicted the global ecosystem — and human civilization — would collapse by about 1985, so his crystal ball had a few cracks in it. 🙂
[2010/08/10 15:59] Lem Skall: Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (biology) from those that do not — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life
[2010/08/10 15:59] Extropia DaSilva: BTW who agrees that we can create life from scratch? Does the milestone Venter achieved leave room for doubt?
[2010/08/10 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That “no” was to JerryDon. We already established that reproduction is not a requirement.
[2010/08/10 15:59] Case Wrangler: Thanks Lem
[2010/08/10 15:59] Serendipity Seraph: well if you predict apocalypse long enough you will eventually be right
[2010/08/10 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, under that definition, we have definitely created life from “scratch”; if by that you mean, “by assembling molecules”
[2010/08/10 16:00] Camilla Delvalle: I think it will be possible to “create life” in the future.
[2010/08/10 16:00] Khannea Suntzu: Has anyone ever read the book series ‘ War Against the Chtorr’ ?
[2010/08/10 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren: yes, give it or take a few billion years 😉
[2010/08/10 16:00] Scarp Godenot: I think we can define life as something that replicates itself and has a system of possible change in its form.
[2010/08/10 16:00] Khannea Suntzu: I recommend looking at it
[2010/08/10 16:00] Luisa Bourgoin: bacteria creating sugar from cellulose … interesting. but no paper anymore, no greenbacks inside pockets – heck no jeans even anymore
[2010/08/10 16:00] Shorahmin Femto: Venter wasn’t it but he showed that “IT” will happen for sure
[2010/08/10 16:00] JerryDon Lane: Then how do spieces, the nomenclature of life sustain themselves if reproduction is not a priority??
[2010/08/10 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: What do you mean by that, Luisa?
[2010/08/10 16:00] Case Wrangler: Trees, creating cellulose from air, water and sun..
[2010/08/10 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I meant, JerryDon, that we consider mules to be alive, even though they don’t reproduce 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: /me sets Luisa’s jeans on fire. . .
[2010/08/10 16:01] Case Wrangler: Release the sun’s energy from her jeans
[2010/08/10 16:01] Luisa Bourgoin: Extie, its a movie storie. bacteria escape from a lab
[2010/08/10 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: I created life!! 😀
[2010/08/10 16:01] Camilla Delvalle: maybe we are mistaken to say that mules are alive.
[2010/08/10 16:01] Archmage Atlantis: I think we have produced the chemicals of life, and maybe very simple DNA like strands in the lab already, tho I can’t remember where that “factoid” comes from
[2010/08/10 16:01] JerryDon Lane: They reproduce at the cellular level, if their cells are alive are not they?
[2010/08/10 16:01] Catz Jewell: i created life too and she eats me out of house and home,lol
[2010/08/10 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, why can we shrug away criteria for defining “life”, but when we say “assemble from scratch” we mean pushing individual atoms around?
[2010/08/10 16:01] Case Wrangler: No, Jerry
[2010/08/10 16:02] Case Wrangler: Not necessarilly.
[2010/08/10 16:02] Khannea Suntzu: The point here is humanitty, especially the simpletons that didn’t get the memo we have entered the information age and are still growing subsistence yams, cannot posisbly keep up with a technology driven rate of improbement. People thing ‘ ohh in a century things will more or less be the same, but with extra metallic caddillac fins and bleeping lights’
[2010/08/10 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s interesting, Case & JerryDon. Is the mule as an organism alive, or are its constituing elements — cells — individually alive? 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:02] Zobeid Zuma: mmmm, yams. . .
[2010/08/10 16:02] Khannea Suntzu: *drool*
[2010/08/10 16:03] JerryDon Lane: Catz makes some MEAN sweet potato casserole!!
[2010/08/10 16:03] Serendipity Seraph: the greatest threat we face right now? economic meltdown leading to a very nasty and virulent “cultural revolution” wiping out much of technological civ as we know it.
[2010/08/10 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Khannea — yes, and the fun bit is to look at what people in 1900 predicted that 2000 would look like 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:03] Catz Jewell: hehe
[2010/08/10 16:03] Case Wrangler: What are you drooling about? Oh.. it is almost dinner time..
[2010/08/10 16:03] Ataraxia Azemus: Things probably will be more or less the same in 100 years. People evolve all the time, but change is slowwwwwww.
[2010/08/10 16:03] Formatting Heliosense: agrees with Seren
[2010/08/10 16:03] Serendipity Seraph: yep, k.
[2010/08/10 16:03] Scarp Godenot: Did you see that crazy Right Wing guy that got all the press this week by claiming Einsteins theory of relativity is a conspiracy of the Left?
[2010/08/10 16:03] Khannea Suntzu: LOOl ataraxia
[2010/08/10 16:03] Extropia DaSilva: But Seren, in the past the curves of accelerating change carry on like the Depression never happened. What is so special about the current slowdown?
[2010/08/10 16:03] Archmage Atlantis: Agree Seren, the entire net is at risk, as well as all collected knowledge
[2010/08/10 16:03] Ataraxia Azemus: Just like the MOON.
[2010/08/10 16:03] Case Wrangler: What are a few dangers that you see in our ability to create life, Extropia?
[2010/08/10 16:03] JerryDon Lane: Funny Scarp
[2010/08/10 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Seren … right now, all technology is pushed ahead with the notion that it becomes a marketable product. If that assumption fails (due to an economic breakdown), we might be stuck
[2010/08/10 16:04] Archmage Atlantis: This has happened before, at Alexandria
[2010/08/10 16:04] Case Wrangler: Biological weapons?
[2010/08/10 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have them.
[2010/08/10 16:04] Extropia DaSilva: *Thinks*
[2010/08/10 16:04] Serendipity Seraph: nope. either they will be very different or humans are not likely to be here in 100 years
[2010/08/10 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, the dog was our first successful bilogical weapon!
[2010/08/10 16:04] Vorren Voltaire: if sex is no longer a necessity and we can just pick and choose the traits of an offspring…then the only important thing to pass on are the ways of thinking.
[2010/08/10 16:04] Khannea Suntzu: Have you people a clue approximating what 3D printers can do???
[2010/08/10 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *biological even
[2010/08/10 16:04] Ataraxia Azemus: I’ll bet you on that, Serendip. In 100 years, we’ll see. 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hear, hear, Vorren!!!
[2010/08/10 16:04] Camilla Delvalle: If the civilization goes down it will probably be because of a lot of different factors together. Like environment destruction leading to economic failure and political collapse leading to war and so on.
[2010/08/10 16:04] Zobeid Zuma: +1 Vorren
[2010/08/10 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me applauds
[2010/08/10 16:05] Formatting Heliosense: with progress as we have seen humans will be more synthetic than biological in 30-50 years
[2010/08/10 16:05] Case Wrangler: Actually, Vorren, we would need the basics. Remember the film, Idiocracy. ; )
[2010/08/10 16:05] Serendipity Seraph: because this is MUCH worse than the the Depression. the starting basis is worst and so is the extent of the problem that we are just beginning to get wise to
[2010/08/10 16:05] Case Wrangler: The basics *too*
[2010/08/10 16:05] Scarp Godenot: The dangers of creating life are 1) creation of a highly toxic pathogen that goes out of control 2) creation of a life form that decides to exterminate us.
[2010/08/10 16:05] Luisa Bourgoin: 3D printers are still pretty bad on mixing materials
[2010/08/10 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, Camilla, just like it happened with the Roman EMpire. Well, at least we got the lead plumbing out in time 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: I suppose one would be this synthetic life outcompeting all else. But I do not credit that is plausible, given that life earned its place through billions of years of selective fitness.
[2010/08/10 16:05] Archmage Atlantis: Why do you have such a bitter worldview, and such a nasty way of speaking to and about people, K?
[2010/08/10 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, with 2, we were lucky su far. Dogs and cats didn’t wipe us out.
[2010/08/10 16:05] Formatting Heliosense: not just life, but artificial general intelligence
[2010/08/10 16:06] Serendipity Seraph: has a clue on 3D prniters. heck ceramic and metal parts can be built one off in about a week or two over the net now!
[2010/08/10 16:06] Case Wrangler: Who are you talking to, Archmage?
[2010/08/10 16:06] Serendipity Seraph: this is a big deal!
[2010/08/10 16:06] Khannea Suntzu: Archmage have you ever hesard of the rhetorical position of ‘playing the devi’s advocate ?
[2010/08/10 16:07] Extropia DaSilva: Oh well if it was syntetic life with AGI the purpose of the human race is fulfilled and so its continuation is no longer so vital. In this scenario existential threats are not as much of a problem.
[2010/08/10 16:07] Extropia DaSilva: Did we lose Gwyn?
[2010/08/10 16:07] JerryDon Lane: I once played Jacob in the devil and Danial Webster
[2010/08/10 16:07] Serendipity Seraph: dunno about “purpose”. is there a purpose for the human race?
[2010/08/10 16:07] Formatting Heliosense: what is that purpose Extropia?
[2010/08/10 16:07] Luisa Bourgoin: Seren, if I mail some quadrocopter building parts, I got sent them via parcel delivery during the week? nice 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:08] Vorren Voltaire: Dunno..could we even engineer some habits into the base genetic code. Scary thought…a basic slave race made to order for flipping burgers, mopping floors and greeting at walmart
[2010/08/10 16:08] Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Khannea……I find it to be more divisive than useful, but that’s me
[2010/08/10 16:08] Formatting Heliosense: there are two sides to how we can look at the purpose being attained of ‘living on as a species’
[2010/08/10 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is back and apologises
[2010/08/10 16:08] Formatting Heliosense: maintaining life as we know it today, or close to it- or living on through our creations.
[2010/08/10 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: The purpose of a technology-creating species is to develop tech to a point where it can design its own next-generation and guide its evolution wthout the intervention of the original tech-creating species.
[2010/08/10 16:08] Serendipity Seraph: yep. if you can specify them in a normal cat framework or one of the mesh formats and pay a bit.
[2010/08/10 16:08] Ataraxia Azemus: Where does that end?
[2010/08/10 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie.
[2010/08/10 16:09] Luisa Bourgoin: but that 3D printer email interface implies, that even intelligent computer virus could contact them … replicating into RL 😦
[2010/08/10 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw, and I thought that our purpose was just to be happy and teach others how to be happy as well 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:09] Ataraxia Azemus: I like that purpose better, Gwyn 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:09] Serendipity Seraph: AIs with a source of funds at their disposal could indeed have all kinds of things built.
[2010/08/10 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: This could include the orginal species being uplifted through integrating with its tech, or it might be left behind to go extinct or be actively wiped out for whatever reason.
[2010/08/10 16:10] Lem Skall: side question: would we be interested in creating something that will rule the world if that thing also is taking care of us, like pets?
[2010/08/10 16:10] Scarp Godenot: /me worries a lot about the potential destrctive power of nannobots and nannotech in general.
[2010/08/10 16:10] Ataraxia Azemus: Legos building Lego sets, forever.
[2010/08/10 16:10] Vorren Voltaire: can’t figure out what I’m supposed to be doing much less speak for all the humans
[2010/08/10 16:10] Khannea Suntzu: Our entire culture, economy, society is based on displacement. And people assume that once we start constructing replicators that (a) these devices wont displace people or (b) that ‘the diaplaced’ won’t use these tools to lash out blindly? What exactly can Al Quada do in terms of damage if they simply collect 20-50 plant, insect and fungus species worldwide and release these specimen timed and planned in specific reggions of the US? It would cause a collapse of the agricultural basis of the US. Conclusion- right now Al Qyuada are a bunch of cave idiots with zero imagination. But will that ignorance last?
[2010/08/10 16:10] JerryDon Lane: Tech can already reprocuce itself…..Jst make sure it is on a CD………Of course, Bill gates didn’t kick a rock and XP jumped out, it still required a designer
[2010/08/10 16:10] Serendipity Seraph: our purpose is what we value and we get a lot of choice beyond just the evolution programmed in ones about what we value.
[2010/08/10 16:10] Camilla Delvalle: I think that if we want to create a new life-form that kills all life, it might be built in a very different way, being more efficient that current organisms. In that case most of the current organisms might be swept away easily by the new one. But this is speculation.
[2010/08/10 16:11] Extropia DaSilva: All technology reproduces itself, so long as you take human activity as a given.
[2010/08/10 16:11] Serendipity Seraph: I don’t agree it is all based on displacement
[2010/08/10 16:11] Camilla Delvalle: Khannea, that’s an interesting idea about how Al Qaeda can cause havoc.
[2010/08/10 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: I think something like that already happened Camilla.
[2010/08/10 16:11] Serendipity Seraph: but there will be people and groups and organizations not happy in accelerating change. for sure
[2010/08/10 16:11] Luisa Bourgoin: after Gates kicked a rock, NT might have spawned
[2010/08/10 16:11] Khannea Suntzu: /me wiggles feet and slightly displaces Serendipity’s thighs
[2010/08/10 16:11] Ataraxia Azemus: A truly efficient organism learns to fit within a niche, to coexist with other species. Otherwise it competes itself into extinction.
[2010/08/10 16:11] Vorren Voltaire: are humans just the medium for technology’s evolution? are we the primordial ooze?
[2010/08/10 16:12] Serendipity Seraph: *wiggles*
[2010/08/10 16:12] Extropia DaSilva: Apart from my questionable proclamation about destiny, what actually is the point of trying to create life?
[2010/08/10 16:12] Khannea Suntzu: No ataraxia. Cows with lasers for eyes will kill humans, wolves and anything that gets in their way and will fill the world.
[2010/08/10 16:12] Ataraxia Azemus: That’s a good question.
[2010/08/10 16:12] JerryDon Lane: No, because we had to come from somewhere….Matter cannot creat itself…..Science says no way
[2010/08/10 16:12] Formatting Heliosense: to create life that can do things we can not do with our bodies
[2010/08/10 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: Same as creating anything else. We like making new things! 😀
[2010/08/10 16:12] Formatting Heliosense: space exploration, for one
[2010/08/10 16:12] Ataraxia Azemus: Cows with lasers? Pfft. The future belongs to the cattlesnakes!
[2010/08/10 16:13] Serendipity Seraph: if you can create life you can radically improve existing life. you can tailor self-replicating machines for designer purposes
[2010/08/10 16:13] Camilla Delvalle: Ataraxia, an organism that has double efficience compared to current organisms would kill everything else, mutate and create a new eco system.
[2010/08/10 16:13] Ataraxia Azemus: laser eyes*
[2010/08/10 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: Do we not have enough of it? And should we be creating new life, when our track record as stewards of this planet is not great?
[2010/08/10 16:13] Serendipity Seraph: what is the point of MNT?
[2010/08/10 16:13] Vorren Voltaire: Mutant Kangaroos ftw
[2010/08/10 16:13] Khannea Suntzu: MANBEARPIG
[2010/08/10 16:13] Luisa Bourgoin: Vorren, since we ooze are way-to-much economy driven, we might give a bad development environment
[2010/08/10 16:13] Serendipity Seraph: we are not stewards
[2010/08/10 16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “create life” just “because we can”. We don’t need much more reason…
[2010/08/10 16:13] Ataraxia Azemus: But then that organism would be a failure, eating itself to death.
[2010/08/10 16:13] Formatting Heliosense: we are as gods, we may as well get good at it – Stewart Brand ‘whole earth project’
[2010/08/10 16:13] Case Wrangler: Yeah, that’s interesting.. what if we see a certain culture and ethnicity as a perfect blend.. recognizable by all others on Earth.. one that has -through reproduction- (not GM in test-tubes) seemed to have attained the perfect balance of intelligence, aggressiveness, compassion, a variety of personalities and traits, and the only reason all other cultures and people on Earth thought that they would want to continue reproducing is for ourselves. (I wouldn’t want to stop.) That would be like an advanced culture wiping us out, except not. Our desire to continue on.. interesting… and possibly very useful.. because what if that new group happened to just not have enough variety.. and a disease came along capable of wiping them out that would not necessarily wipe out some other ethnicities that are much more different? That could be a purpose for others. I see this as an exercise in recognizing ours and everyone’s desire to live on by putting ourselves in the shoes of those who would be “wiped out for the ‘bett
[2010/08/10 16:13] Case Wrangler: erment'”
[2010/08/10 16:13] Scarp Godenot: matter does not have to create itself, it only has to recombine other matter.
[2010/08/10 16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me seconds Seren. That notion of “stewards” is too tied with the Good Book and its followers 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:13] Scarp Godenot: a novel!
[2010/08/10 16:14] Case Wrangler: sorry!
[2010/08/10 16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but Case has a point 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:14] Vorren Voltaire: well Luisa, evolution has alot of dead ends, somehow I don’t think the BackStreet Boys and Pet rocks are going to ne the memes that bring about the great evolution
[2010/08/10 16:14] JerryDon Lane: Stop, Scarp….Are you not familiar with the law of conservation of matter which states that matter can never be created or destroyed, it can only be changed? That is science
[2010/08/10 16:15] Conover’s Flight-Helper 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
[2010/08/10 16:15] JerryDon Lane: Science say that life creating itself is just silly
[2010/08/10 16:15] Archmage Atlantis: Science is only conjecture based on observation……not proof
[2010/08/10 16:15] Extropia DaSilva: Stuart Noble, a scholar of science and religion, believes things like space exploration, cloning, genome project AI, are essentially religious projects. The ‘we are looking for benefit X’ is a distraction from the TRUE goal, which is the restoration of perfection that was promised to Adam after the Fall.
[2010/08/10 16:15] Serendipity Seraph: actually it is created and destroyed all the time. quantum foam. particles pop randomly into existence and anihilate each other
[2010/08/10 16:16] Case Wrangler: And the reverse of that is something like the idea in the film, Idiocracy: that people of low intelligence simply out-reproduce people of high intelligence until there are no more intelligent people left.
[2010/08/10 16:16] JerryDon Lane: Science is experimentally based, not conjecture
[2010/08/10 16:16] Serendipity Seraph: so if that is true shouldn’t there be a net increase of energy over time?
[2010/08/10 16:16] Scarp Godenot: JerryDon: I don’t know what you THINK I’m saying. We are on different pages.
[2010/08/10 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s really a VERY arguable argument, Extie 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:16] JerryDon Lane: No, a net decreas as the 2nd law of thermodynamics dictates
[2010/08/10 16:16] Khannea Suntzu: Oh certainly. Even Stalinate russia was ‘pretty welcomed’ by a lot of local potentates and rulers. Many regarded Stalin as an ‘opportune ruler’ Thats how powerhunger tyrants survive – by being useful (and on the saide killing off a few contemptible people’.
[2010/08/10 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, it would simply leave half of the world’s scientists out of the picture, who are not followers of the Good Book, and for them the reference to Adam would be meaningless.
[2010/08/10 16:17] Case Wrangler: That Stuart Noble idea you mentioned seems to be more of an inferment than something that’s actually implied by the search for knowledge and benefit, though, Extropia.
[2010/08/10 16:17] Khannea Suntzu: I could say the same about the US.
[2010/08/10 16:17] Archmage Atlantis: Different pages? More like different libraries *g*
[2010/08/10 16:17] Serendipity Seraph: or our dream of a much much better existence *somehow* in the sweet bye and bye
[2010/08/10 16:17] Luisa Bourgoin: a good strong blend of Idiocracy & Economy could finish this place off
[2010/08/10 16:18] Extropia DaSilva: Well, success in evolution is defined by how many surviving offspring one leaves behind. It has notthing to do with how fast or bright or clever or strong. If the weak dull and dimwitted produce more offspring, natural selection has not gone wrong. That was the mistaken belief of the social Darwinists.
[2010/08/10 16:18] Ataraxia Azemus: A person can be ignorant of the symbols they embody… I don’t know how much Real, Actual Science! has the cultish tinge, but most popsci certainly does.
[2010/08/10 16:18] JerryDon Lane: Do you think I am a Bible Thumper, Ser?
[2010/08/10 16:18] Khannea Suntzu: Hmmm interesting question – Extropia proposed a replicator that ‘replicates despite us\ and may ‘end up displacing us’. But what if we altready have those, completely out of control? Hmmm what about ‘corporations’ ?
[2010/08/10 16:18] Serendipity Seraph: that is why nature’s utility function needs a replacement
[2010/08/10 16:18] JerryDon Lane: Just introducing some science in here…….*wink*
[2010/08/10 16:18] Serendipity Seraph: not at all, JerryDon. why do you ask?
[2010/08/10 16:19] JerryDon Lane: Just curious
[2010/08/10 16:19] Scarp Godenot: JerryDon, don’t forget that several of us in the room ARE scientists.
[2010/08/10 16:19] JerryDon Lane: Science answers every question being posed in here tonight
[2010/08/10 16:19] JerryDon Lane: As am I
[2010/08/10 16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is just a wannabe scientist with real creds and zero rep.
[2010/08/10 16:19] Serendipity Seraph: bacteria replicate despite us already. so do any insects. most of the biosphere is insects.
[2010/08/10 16:19] Ataraxia Azemus: Huh. Corporations are kinda like that. People, land and resources go in…. iPads come out.
[2010/08/10 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: woot 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: an Apple reference, yay!
[2010/08/10 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/08/10 16:20] Khannea Suntzu: Hoi hoi spidermonkey
[2010/08/10 16:20] Archmage Atlantis: Anyway, overly successful reproduction seems to lead to becoming a food source………as I remember from another conversation 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:20] Vorren Voltaire: Idiocracy is only half of it…there would more likely just end up two offshoots of humanity. HomoStupidus and HomoGeekius. One might be more numerous, but there would always be the builders. Its hardwired. Must find patterns, must create patterns.
[2010/08/10 16:20] Ataraxia Azemus: Bacteria don’t replicate DESPITE us. They reproduce alongside and around us.
[2010/08/10 16:21] Serendipity Seraph: they could care less we are here
[2010/08/10 16:21] Extropia DaSilva: The director of the human genome project is a born again christian who has said the most significant moment in history was the resurrection of jesus. The Mercury mission was originally called ‘Project Adam’ and Von Braunn was a born-again Christian who said man had to go into space to spread the gospel. The first food tasted on the moon was Communian wafers and wine. ‘so the religios ethos of the space program is undeniable’, reckons Noble.
[2010/08/10 16:21] Serendipity Seraph: and could be the death of us
[2010/08/10 16:21] JerryDon Lane: And Viruses replicate in us
[2010/08/10 16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, Extie, I like your argument, I should read more about that. It’s something I always wondered about, why don’t we get evolved to be more intelligent? 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:21] Case Wrangler: Haha Vorren..
[2010/08/10 16:21] Ataraxia Azemus: Viruses are like replicators, pulling apart organic matter to build more and more of themselves.
[2010/08/10 16:22] JerryDon Lane: Sorry, species don’t evolve, thet devolve into extinction
[2010/08/10 16:22] Serendipity Seraph: so what? most people isolate parts of their mind to believe some bizarre things despite being brilliantly competent in other areas
[2010/08/10 16:22] Khannea Suntzu: Televisions have spread, and perpetuated societal structures facilitating more spread – people get dumb and passive and shott term oriented. They want more TV’s. Maybe the TV has been spreading in a parasytic manner? We dont crawling tentacled horrors to spread and propagate at the expense of decent, honest god abiding tax paying folks?
[2010/08/10 16:22] Lem Skall: Gwyn, maybe because intelligence is not genetic
[2010/08/10 16:22] Extropia DaSilva: The evidence suggests intelligence is not very useful for evolution. The eye evolved at least 6 times. But humanlike intelligence evolved only once.
[2010/08/10 16:22] Scarp Godenot: Wtf does that mean JerryDon? ha ha ha
[2010/08/10 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe, lem.
[2010/08/10 16:22] Serendipity Seraph: species don’t evolve? yeah right.
[2010/08/10 16:22] Camilla Delvalle: I’m not sure if it is true that all kinds of intelligent people get fewer children though.
[2010/08/10 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be an answer
[2010/08/10 16:22] Zobeid Zuma: Only once that we know about Extie.
[2010/08/10 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it should be the case, Camilla 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or we’d all be super-intelligent.
[2010/08/10 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think… lol
[2010/08/10 16:23] Case Wrangler: /me the what?
[2010/08/10 16:23] Serendipity Seraph: who cares about evolution? intelligence trumps evolution.
[2010/08/10 16:23] Zobeid Zuma: Just wait until somebody digs up the city of the Great Old Ones in Antarctica. . . .
[2010/08/10 16:23] Khannea Suntzu: I dont even think replicators need to be *smart* to totally make humanity go extinct.
[2010/08/10 16:23] Ataraxia Azemus: Defining intelligence is a problem, as typically this only implies educated.
[2010/08/10 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need more of it then, Seren 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:23] JerryDon Lane: Well, if we define evolution as change, the devolution is evolution…….You guys have to define the terms if we are to intelligently discuss them
[2010/08/10 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: Does it, Seren?
[2010/08/10 16:23] Khannea Suntzu: SHHHH ZOBEID
[2010/08/10 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Ataraxia
[2010/08/10 16:23] Ataraxia Azemus: Ia.
[2010/08/10 16:23] Case Wrangler: I agree, Atara
[2010/08/10 16:23] Camilla Delvalle: Well, we are super-intelligent. Compared to all other species on earth. (Although not very intelligent compared to what is possible.)
[2010/08/10 16:24] Archmage Atlantis: Agree, Camilla
[2010/08/10 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: I thought we were relying more and more on evolutiuonary methods to help design our more complex technologies and manage our larger systems?
[2010/08/10 16:24] Serendipity Seraph: yes. it does. purpose driven change trumps simplistic GA with basic fitness function
[2010/08/10 16:24] Serendipity Seraph: at least it can..
[2010/08/10 16:24] JerryDon Lane: How so, Extropia?
[2010/08/10 16:24] Luisa Bourgoin: education I value that higher than intelligence
[2010/08/10 16:25] Serendipity Seraph: evolutionary method intelligently applied with intellligently selected fitness functions
[2010/08/10 16:25] Serendipity Seraph: not the same thing as natural evolution
[2010/08/10 16:25] JerryDon Lane: You value education more than common sense, are you by any chance a college professor? 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:25] Luisa Bourgoin: emphatie, emotionality come 2nd
[2010/08/10 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now you’re going to argue that the difference of “evolution” and “Intelligence” lies in the eye of the beholder… 😉
[2010/08/10 16:25] Ataraxia Azemus: Both are important. So are creativity, empathy, athleticism, health.
[2010/08/10 16:25] Vorren Voltaire: print,radio, TV, internet…just ways of more rapidly spreading ideas to big human brains that repeat and rearrange the ideas to other brains. Some are useful, like art math and sciences…some not so much
[2010/08/10 16:25] Scarp Godenot: Common sense usually means simplistic in my reading of the word.
[2010/08/10 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Common sense is the most uncommon commodity on the planet, JerryDon 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And wrong 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:26] Extropia DaSilva: Well, some computer chips in cellular phones and other things were designed almost entirely by computers, using evolutionary methods…the Internet routes traffic using algorithms based on the way ants forage for food and take it back to the nest via the shortest route…
[2010/08/10 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Common sense says that we live on the Discworld 😉
[2010/08/10 16:26] Ataraxia Azemus: Common sense is the stuff you know is baloney but your neighbors go along with it, so you just shrug.
[2010/08/10 16:26] Case Wrangler: Of course, it takes a LOT (it’s an uphill battle) to refuse all the rewards of “going with the flow” and actually think independently. We are constantly guided, encouraged and rewarded for going along and not questioning the way things are.. essentially toward ignoring examination.
[2010/08/10 16:26] Serendipity Seraph: common sense is hard. try to teach it to a computer
[2010/08/10 16:26] Archmage Atlantis: Actually, common sense is a meaningless concept
[2010/08/10 16:26] Case Wrangler: Essentially, intelligence can be hijacked.. if people are molded to only focus on what people want us to focus on.
[2010/08/10 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: quoting from 1984, Case? hehe
[2010/08/10 16:27] Scarp Godenot: Actually, ‘common sense’ is the voice of tried and true experience usually.
[2010/08/10 16:27] JerryDon Lane: Huh? It means being able to sort through real life problems…….I have had professors that were so dumb they couldn’t chane a flat on their car…LOL……That is intelligence?
[2010/08/10 16:27] Case Wrangler: ..rather than explore whatever we want..
[2010/08/10 16:27] Khannea Suntzu: Using common sense when facing The Great Old Ones will get you killed, insane and a cultist. in any order.
[2010/08/10 16:27] Luisa Bourgoin: Extie made a point. parts of our civilisation recreate technology. not merely built it up, even during development state
[2010/08/10 16:27] Case Wrangler: /me laughs.. I’ll take that as a compliment, Gwyneth
[2010/08/10 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or Fahrenheit 451 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Both definitely would agree with you, Case 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:27] Vorren Voltaire: or Fox News
[2010/08/10 16:27] Ataraxia Azemus: Ftagn.
[2010/08/10 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The sad part is that even after so long, we come up with the same conclusion…
[2010/08/10 16:28] Archmage Atlantis: Yes Scarp, in unchanging, static environment, I would agree
[2010/08/10 16:28] Scarp Godenot: ha ha Vorren’
[2010/08/10 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: shh Ataraxia. 😉
[2010/08/10 16:28] Ataraxia Azemus: :p
[2010/08/10 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/08/10 16:28] Khannea Suntzu: *SNORES*
[2010/08/10 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: So if I design a robot that can change a tire and do it faster than even the pit stop guys and Formula 1…I win the nobel prize for creating intelligence in a machine?
[2010/08/10 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie
[2010/08/10 16:28] Serendipity Seraph: and make largely the same comments and jokes regardless of subject. 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:28] Case Wrangler: Well, I don’t think that’s the machine’s intelligence, Extropia.. I think that’s yours
[2010/08/10 16:29] Lem Skall: me make fire, me change tire
[2010/08/10 16:29] Serendipity Seraph: no but you get rich from garages licensing it
[2010/08/10 16:29] Khannea Suntzu: That would make that person a variant of an eliza. Hmmm an eliezer even?
[2010/08/10 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: me make tire, me change fire — me typonese
[2010/08/10 16:29] Extropia DaSilva: Oh that is a good answer:) because…when does the credit belong to the machine and not the people who designed and manufactured it?
[2010/08/10 16:29] JerryDon Lane: Trying to think about a joke with the robot changing the tire…..OK, but then he couldn’t teach history anymore
[2010/08/10 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Extie
[2010/08/10 16:29] Serendipity Seraph: when it learns and creates things they did not
[2010/08/10 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: How many robots does it take to change a lightbulb, mmh?
[2010/08/10 16:30] Vorren Voltaire: Extie…you would have to also make it a NASCAR fan. Artificial intelligence is easy, but can you make artificial ignorance?
[2010/08/10 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl Vorren
[2010/08/10 16:30] Khannea Suntzu: MUST… GO… LEFT….FASTER
[2010/08/10 16:30] Vorren Voltaire: L)OL!!!
[2010/08/10 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: randomly deleting rules from a rule-based system would do the trick, Vorren 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:30] Zobeid Zuma: I know you can make artificial stupidity. I present as evidence the computer opponents in Civ3. 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:30] Luisa Bourgoin: could we construct such an AI machine next days pplz
[2010/08/10 16:30] JerryDon Lane: Just one…….A blonde robot…..She just sticks the bulb in the socket and wats for the world to begin revolving around her
[2010/08/10 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL JerryDon!
[2010/08/10 16:30] Extropia DaSilva: But some evolutionary programming has designed things nobody thought of, and sometimes its designs are too complex for us to debug them. We just trust that they work. So does that EA deserve to be called an inventor?
[2010/08/10 16:31] JerryDon Lane: Sorry…..Hehe
[2010/08/10 16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a rather advanced blonde… she knows that the world revolves!
[2010/08/10 16:31] Ataraxia Azemus: Hehe
[2010/08/10 16:31] Scarp Godenot: Self consciousness or self awareness might be the definition we think of when we thing of Artificial Intelligence and what will constitute it….. you think?
[2010/08/10 16:31] Khannea Suntzu: I thnk like ugm the people in the africas and uhm their dont have like uhm maps and…
[2010/08/10 16:31] Serendipity Seraph: yes. but only on very small highly specified problems. not general pattern recognition, learning and goal selecting. but we do have creativity machines
[2010/08/10 16:31] Archmage Atlantis: Reduced to blonde jokes
[2010/08/10 16:31] Serendipity Seraph: that do create new stuff so yeah, it gets closer
[2010/08/10 16:31] Archmage Atlantis: sigh
[2010/08/10 16:32] Extropia DaSilva: YOu know why it takes a women with PMT five minutes to change a lightbulb? BECAUSE IT *** WELL DOES THAT IS WHY!!!!!!
[2010/08/10 16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, if we answer “no” to that… it means that we cannot postulate intelligence as an epiphenomenum. ANd if we refute that, it means discovering a new origin for intelligence, which will make the scientists froth at their mouths. So, yes, Extie, it certaionly deserves a Nobel prize.
[2010/08/10 16:32] Scarp Godenot: Is PMT like PMS?
[2010/08/10 16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably worse!
[2010/08/10 16:32] JerryDon Lane: Well, Atar, yo guys won’t stay on the same subject for 5 posts….LOL
[2010/08/10 16:33] Ataraxia Azemus: Hey, I wasn’t the one complaining!
[2010/08/10 16:33] Case Wrangler: Yeah, what’s PMT? The ‘T’ key isn’t near the ‘S’ key.
[2010/08/10 16:33] Extropia DaSilva: OO nearly summing up time. OK to sum up….which should cause more concern and why: weapons of mass destriction, creating life from scratch?
[2010/08/10 16:33] Archmage Atlantis: Neither and both
[2010/08/10 16:33] Ataraxia Azemus: Humans at the wheel.
[2010/08/10 16:33] Vorren Voltaire: In both cases, it depends who’s finger is on the button
[2010/08/10 16:34] Scarp Godenot: The answer my dear Extie, is Global Warming! ha ha ha
[2010/08/10 16:34] Lem Skall: maybe we can destroy everything and then create new life from scratch
[2010/08/10 16:34] Serendipity Seraph: now humans at the wheel, great cause for concern! 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:34] Khannea Suntzu: Humans arent the problem. Its the goj with IQ under 90 with a vote that is.
[2010/08/10 16:34] Extropia DaSilva: Global warming groannnnnn
[2010/08/10 16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: Extreme Weather 🙂 This year, in my country, we had the coldest winter in 160 years and the hottest summer in 80. Two records in just a year! And the local metreology institute can+’t predict the weather 24 hours in advance, lol
[2010/08/10 16:35] Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
[2010/08/10 16:35] Zobeid Zuma: Sounds like Texas, Gwyn. You’ll get used to it. 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:35] Archmage Atlantis: From my personal viewpoint, it depends on whether someone that agrees with me has the finger on the button 🙂
[2010/08/10 16:35] Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK…is a topic suggested by Judith Underwood….
[2010/08/10 16:35] Luisa Bourgoin: we seemed to worry about life from scratch.. that’s … just post-cold-war thinking. too tired to consider atomic weapons beeing anything besides politics
[2010/08/10 16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea, let’s forbid politicians to reproduce 😉
[2010/08/10 16:35] Case Wrangler: I think it’s clear that weapons of mass destruction would because it’s direct. Creating life from scratch requires extra steps, such as making life specifically for destroying life. To make the equivilent, one would have to ask: what should cause more concern: the ability to create nuclear reactions or the ability to create life?”.
[2010/08/10 16:35] Extropia DaSilva: ‘THAT LOVING FEELING…