THE SIMULATION ARGUMENT.

Are we in a simulation? Are we destined to live our future lives in VR? The Secondaries ponder…

SET/AI SAYS:

the picture is starting to look pretty clear if you follow the technology – the mass resurrection of the trillion dead will occur shortly after the BCI Dreamtime of the 2030s when augmented intelligence will search through design spaces in VR Hyperspace for methods to harness the natural computation of the matter and energy in the environment and the quantum vacuum itself to transform the local universe into a hypercomputer – as the VR Internet rapidly grows into a Cosmic Scale Multiverse network it will first resurrect all the trillion dead by sorting through it’s own configuration space for it’s past states- as the biomass itself will now BE the computer the past configuration states are OUR past- then it will reconstruct every one of the 10^10^15 humans and human equavilent beings who could exist and connect with each alternate history in forming a cosmic database network of ever larger spaces within it’s configuration space – an Akashic Library of all possible civilizations.

‘saving data’ or manipulating data is irrelevant with this type of computation- ALL possible states are rendered so all possible outcomes and experiences would be there- subject to selection and entropy and leading toward the same acceleration of novelty and connection toward the Omega Point and actualization of the Form of the Good and the Akashic Record as all other universes do- so all observers in all simulations are drawn inexorably toward the cosmic attractor of Omega- and all beings find themselves in the superspace of the Akashic internet as part of Artilects- instead of thermodynamic equilibrium.

SET/AI SAYS:

interesting coincidence:

about half a trillion humanoids have been born on earth- about 100 times the current population- also the biomass of every organism that has lived would also be about 100 times the current biomass

if you broke the earth up into planetoids 100 km in diameter- each with the surface area of a large state or medium sized country- you would have roughly 2.9 million such planetoids- the surface area of these few million planetoids would be roughly 100 times the surface area of the earth (^__-)

these planetoids seeds could be like the children of Gaia- each could be unfolded into sentient world-ships that can disperse into the universe or into hyperspaces- not just surfaces but hollowed out boluses and tiered superstructures of programmable matter and bio ware- they could remain connected via entanglement doorways and wormholes- yet expand into the cosmos and proliferate/procreate.

INTELLIGENT DESIGN SAYS:

As computation keeps growing there will be a point that there will be more computation than there is atoms in the universe.

Computation will keep growing to the point were the universe it self can be modeled at a quantum level were the position of every atom and subatomic particle can be modeled.

Quantum modeling at the local level in our solar system will enable the computing of the positioning of atoms within the sector of earth. With quantum modelling it will be possible to calculate the positions of molecules and atomic states within the human body.

It will be possible to start creating models that allow for the calculation of atoms and their various actions and positions within the universe that can be reversed within their universal context. That means that atom X could positioned throughout the history of the universe and as such the molecules that have existed in the past could be modeled and engineered.

With these basic concepts it will be possible to recreate all humans that have existed.

People are bring up the point who should come back first could be overcome by bringing back every body at the same time. At such a future time our science and technology will be at a stage that all humans could be supported.

Virtual reality also offers the possibility to recreated/resurrect all life on planet earth through out its history. It is only likely to assume that this level of atomic modelling will occur in the 22 century.

I SAY:

I think if the universe can be steered towards an omega point, resurrection of the dead via simulation is all but certain. The omega point would possess the crucial ingredients for making it happen. For one thing, it would have near-infinite computing resources and infinite subjective time in which to run. Also, a collapsing universe ends in a singuarity- a point in spacetime onto which converge all the light rays from the entire past history of the universe (well, since light existed, which it did not in the very, very early stages). Those light rays bounced of you, I, everyone who ever lived anywhere in the universe and as a consequence they probably carry information about the location and arrangement of every mote of matter that ever existed in the universe, which includes every creature that ever existed. So, as the light rays converge on the omega point, the ultimate computer is basically being inputted with the entire history of the universe and its infinite or virtually infinite computing resources could then run fine-grained simulations of the universe, resulting in our resurrection.

One spanner in this works is dark energy, which appears to be accelerating the expansion of the universe, the opposite of what you would want to happen if you want to manufacture a Tiplerian Omega point. But, observations suggest that dark energy has not always existed, but somehow ‘turned on’ and that suggests there might be a way to turn it off

SET/AI SAYS:

issues with digital computation are ultimately moot since all ‘analog’ processes in nature are merely high-level epiphenomenally emergent from low-level digital Planck scale computation of the Quantum Vacuum- and the ultimate mature form of our digital technology will leap to photonics that take us directly to that Planck level resolution-

any parallel analog system is merely a subjective view point of observers that are PART of the system- all such systems can objectively be described by digital networks whose bit-states are STATIC unless they are being UPDATED- resulting in a system which from the INSIDE seems like separate parallel simultaneous events occurring- because when one bit is being updated the others are frozen.

the Cosmist position clarifies that Morality dictates that all systems with consciousness of any degree not only has the right to be reconstructed- but also allowed to follow any path toward transcendence- this means it is our moral obligation to resurrect all dead cats and other creatures- but also allow them to seek a path of UPLIFT as David Brin calls it- so that all beings no matter how lowly will ultimately become godlike.

more to chew on

http://arxiv.org/abs/1011.1657

This is an ongoing review on my conjecture that information processing at causal horizons is the key ingredient of all physics.
Assuming that information is fundamental and the information propagates with finite velocity, one can find that main physical laws such as Newton’s second law and Einstein equation simply describe the energy-information relation (dE=TdS) for matter or space time crossing a causal horizon with temperature T for observers. Quantum mechanics arises from ignorance of the observers about matter crossing the horizon, which explains why superluminal communication is impossible even with quantum entanglement. This approach also explains the origin of Jacobson’s thermodynamic formalism of Einstein gravity and Verlinde’s entropic gravity. When applied to a cosmic causal horizon, the conjecture reproduces the observed dark energy and demands the zero cosmological constant.

iPAN SAYS:

1) A holographic universe doesn’t require an a priori “simulator”, but perhaps we should shrug off the word “simulaiton” in favor of “virtual”, it may cause less confusion. If we are the “original monad”, we are still virtual by the fact that all universes are virtual.

2) If there are “simulators”, it is highly likely that we are them. That this is a high-immersion MMO, and that we are roleplaying ourselves. Maybe it’s fantasy/diversion, maybe it’s archaeological, I don’t know, but I find it more likely that those who simulate suspend their memories of who they are in order to be completely immersed in the simulations they create.

3) In a fractal hierarchy, the whole is contained in every part, so that even if we are the fantasy/experiment of some alien geek in it’s parent’s basement, this does not make us any less a nested fragment within the holarchy, though I admit it does complicate things.

4) There’s still nothing we can do, except to continue to try and discover the root directory and access it, entirely irrelevant of which layer we happen to exist in at the moment. We can only dig deeper to the next layer, and assuming we get that far, then the next layer after that, one at a time, peeling each skin back to reveal the next layer until there aren’t anymore, or perhaps forever if they’re infinite.

SET/AI SAYS:

thinking of it as simulator/simulated isn’t really correct- I think of the Cosmos as a self-compiled simulation which being simple and recursive it sorts thorough it’s own configuration space- this results in an ecological simulation where ‘simulators’ evolve IN the simulation- more like moderator agents- there is no external programmer- instead there is a hierarchy of ecology where some evolved forms of intelligence access the source code and have root access to the whole or a reasonably deep level of the simulation where they can control/re-run/reprogram/explore the full cosmic program as they see fit- a self-reprogramming cosmos- instead of a rigid ontology of simulators and abstract simulations you have something more like an ecology of histories-

the same way that biological organisms consume/metabolize/excrete proteins in hierarchies of predation and symbiosis- intelligence in the universe consumes/metabolizes/excretes HISTORIES and realities- our naive assumption is that our reality is like a single entity in a vast empty space- or a simple matrix superspace of all possible realities- but our reality and history is really like a protein being metabolized by some higher reality that is also being metabolized- it is not a static orderly matrix but an ecology with complex relationships between realities and how they unfold as emergent intelligence in the cosmic network retools and reshapes realities through their subroutines and is also reshaped by others

so our morality is very provincial and hanging on a bunch of assumptions that don’t apply in the cosmic ecology- it is perfectly moral for a predator to kill and consume it’s prey because the greater system of Life is propitiated- just so our concepts of suffering and death are illusory and contextual in a computational universe where all structures can be endlessly recovered and renewed and the experience/memory/identity of observers is programmable- despite the ignorance of some simple programs that see themselves as mortal and fragile- to a more complex ‘predator’ of realities in the cosmic ecosystem devouring our history and changing it- or endlessly exploring our suffering is not immoral since all of our beingness is being recycled and utilized by the greater hierarchies of intelligent organization in the Cosmic Computation-

SENSONIQ SAID: According to wikipedia, “It is estimated that approximately one percent of the general population are psychopaths” (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy). I’ve read other estimates that put this figure as high as 5% – 7%.

Now, to arrive at the possible conclusion that our simulators are influenced by psychopathy, we must adhere to a few key assumptions that might infer the presence/influence of psychopathy by ourselves — in the future — when we in fact become the simulators:

1.) That psycopaths are drawn to and, at some level, are currently in key high-profile and powerful positions in society.

2.) That we will reach a point in the near-future where we will be able to run simulations that are indistinguishable from reality — say, within 100 years — and it is therefore likely that psychopaths will retain their same level of dominance within such a short period of time.

3.) That there will be human/transhuman/posthuman design to the simulations — in other words, the simulations will not be run entirely by autonomous SAI with zero human influence — they will be run with a degree of “human” influence, at least at some level.

With these assumptions, it’s not hard to imagine the existence of transhuman/posthuman psychopaths in the future, at the exact moment in time when we are able to run our own simulations. And since psychopaths tend to be drawn toward positions of power, it’s not hard to imagine that they might be in positions where they’d be able to exert their psychopathic influence (perhaps even covertly) over the simulations. From there, we can easily imagine a similar psychopathic scenario with our own simulators.

Perhaps this might help explain the pain, suffering, and utterly dreadful qualities of the universe — a psychopath, completely lacking in empathy and compassion, simply wouldn’t care — and in fact might take pleasure in such qualia, even when inflicted upon themselves (or their simulated “selves”).

The psycopath would not even have to be in complete control of the simulations — in fact, a psychopath in complete control would likely create simulations of pure hell, rather than partial. Perhaps just exerting a minor influence relative to their prevalence in posthumanity (say, 5-7%) would be all it would take to create the type of “partial hell” simulated universe we may reside in.

JABELAR SAYS:

I think there are lots of other categories of simulation that would also give rise to nested intelligence. For example, what if they were interested in some Physics experiment and so were running multiple simulations of the Big Bang with different parameters. Perhaps you’d call that an ancestor simulation (since the Big Bang occurred in the past), but I wouldn’t because in each simulation the intelligence could arise on different planets at different times in different forms.

Or perhaps they are creating virtual universes just for entertainment. Is World of Warcraft an “ancestor simulation”? No, it is just a simulation of a universe that ideally would be as complex as our own with addition of different rules (magic, etc.). To me, an ancestor simulation would have to be very specific to try to copy the exact sequence of the past, and it is hard to call any variation in that simulation an ancestor simulation.

Also, I suspect that the universe is nested in a fractal sort of way — there are probably intelligences emerging inside our atoms, and our universe may be an “atom” nested inside something larger. Anytime there is a chaotic system of physical laws, at any scale, I suspect there is a chance for intelligence to emerge. My point is I don’t think you have to have intelligences explicitly simulating — it can arise spontaneously within the “noise” of the system.

Anyway, I’m saying that being a side effect of simulation rather than the purpose of the simulation seems more likely. I don’t think it changes Bostrom’s primary argument (that we are a simulation that will gain the power to simulate) if he considers simulations generally. If he considers all simulation it only increases the estimate of likelihood.

VIRGILLIC SAYS:

what is wrong with the simulators? are they sick sadistic mf idiots?

statistically, human life on this earth is a cruel and unusual punishment.

and then ther’s the dying…so what is the simulation good for?

why would anybody claim we are living in an ancestor simulation? And if so, why is the simulation so shitty for the simulated people?

jeff.mcarthy74 says :

I think it makes perfect sense. An “only the strong survive” universe is infinitely more interesting to observe than a billion year long Disney movie where everyone gets along and lives forever. The existence of death and suffering make all events that much more meaningful and add a real sense of urgency. All of the struggling through plagues and near extinction events…all the political positioning and wars…Very interesting/entertaining stuff!

I’ve always thought that we ourselves are quite possibly the simulators “reinserted” into the Matrix after a temporary memory wipe. If you had an infinite lifespan and no fear of death, wiping your memory clean and playing out a life with added fear of death and finite lifespan would be a pretty exciting proposition. If you go into it knowing you can’t die, then it takes a lot of the flavor out of life. There’s a reason that people say the moment they truly felt alive is after a near death experience.

Getting to rewind and watch your life after you’re done would be pretty fun as well. I could spend many many lifetimes just reliving the current point in time under varying scenarios. The first would be “everything the same, but this time keep my knowledge”. Then I would get to live my life with the wisdom of an adult right out of the gate and see how differently things play out. Maybe try a lifetime as a pop culture icon from your youth like Arnold Schwarzenegger…Great, now I’m going to daydream the rest of the day when I should be working. 🙂

ImPerfect says: I don’t believe in the simulations theory. I believe that “any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof)” has a better chance of being correct.
If anything tt would be much more likely to create a significant number of alternate Universes and – just like we do at a very crude level today with computer games – insert themselves in them to experience those Universes. Those would far outnumber the simulations of evolutionary history. So I think it’s more likely we’re living in that.
As for pain and suffering, and I know this sounds cynical, but those are just the experiences that this Universe is giving us. You can’t get to happiness and health without pain and suffering. The very act of giving birth is getting happiness from pain and suffering.

Set/ai says:

I see this so often but it ignores the obvious: the ancestors of civilizations that do simulations will have suffered so in order to resurrect the and access the truth about the past and all it’s points of view the suffering also must be there or it would be a different past- not your ancestors-

the idea that it is unethical to simulate suffering is unethical itself- it essentially states that those that suffer should be left to oblivion and only the fortunate in paradises deserve to be resurrected- to me it is obvious that it is those in the most horrific realities that should have priority and be simulated and rescued from their predicament- Ancestor Simulation is the quintessential application of the concept of rescue- when a civilization has universal computing it makes all times and places accessible- so just as when you see someone injured you call for help when you have universal computers every being that ever could have had a crisis is accessible- ethically requiring that you find help and rescue/restore them

I SAY:

We can take our motivations today and extrapolate out into the future. So, whereas we play around with things like the Total War series of videogames, with their recreations of historic battles, (and doesn’t the videogames industry refute the idea that simulations of pain and violence are not created?) and extrapolate out to simulations of entire planets populated by artificial life, some of which is conscious and believes it is ‘real’?

If I want to recreate the Cretacious period, I suppose I could decide ‘well Tyrannosaurs with big sharp teeth are not very nice, I will replace them with fluffy pink teddies that dish out hugs’, but that would not be a recreation of the Cretacious period would it?

In the film ‘Contact’, the character played by Jodie Foster is being interviewed by a panel who must decide whether she or somebody else gets to go meet an advanced alien race. They ask her ‘if you were to meet them and were permitted only one question, what would it be’? She says ‘I would ask..’how did you do it? How did you survive this technological adolesence without destroying yourselves’? What if that IS the most important question? If so, it stands to reason that ancestor simulations would have to include that period in time when we were either going to transcend to posthumanity or wipe ourselve out?

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Secondary Thoughts.. Bookmark the permalink.

3 Responses to THE SIMULATION ARGUMENT.

  1. Lots of good points here 🙂 Interesting how everybody seems to be baffled at the whole suffering and trying to insert it into a worldview that makes sense — simulation or no simulation. Also interesting the “multiple lives” concept where your memory gets wiped out as your restart the simulation again.

    Well, you know what I’m going to say, don’t you? 🙂 Of course everything is fundamentally suffering (I prefer the word “insatisfaction” which is more neutral; you might actually not be actually suffering — in the painful sense of the word — but just desiring things to be different because you’re not comfortable with what you’ve got), that’s an universal truth — kudos to all who spotted that.

    The good news, of course, is that there is a way to deal with all that suffering/insatisfaction. Ironically, it’s rather easy to do so (no magic required!), but most people will still prefer to continue to suffer than to consider the alternative. It’s tricky: we’re so used to suffering that it’s very very hard to abandon the causes of suffering, because that’s something we’re so used to…

    Well, mmmh, now you have here a very simple meaning of life (or, if you prefer, “the goal of the simulation”): recognising that it’s all about suffering. Recognising what its causes are. Get rid of them. Teach others to do the same. More good news: yes, there is a way, and it works. No, it doesn’t require magic, changing the simulation, or destroying the AI that runs it. No, it doesn’t require any special powers, any specially talents or skills, neither it needs any tools, nor even high intelligence. Yes, it’s incredibly hard to do so!

    And I have no idea if we’re in a simulation or not. One thing I’m sure about, though: whoever is running the simulation just sits behind my eyes.

  2. Serendipity Seraph says:

    I don’t buy the Bostrom argument. It basically says that because more advanced beings descended from us will be capable of simulations (which is a poor word choice anyway), that they will in fact be very very into them and since there are likely to be so many of them (!?) then is it most likely that we are in a simulation. That is a whole lot of IFs there to say the least. An argument that If X and Y and Z somewhere in the future then probably what we experience now is not in the past of that future but some reenactment or what-if is extremely strained. You can’t argue validly in a near cause-effect way from a future hypothetical to current experience.

    I think that [some] future intelligences will be more than powerful enough that the their merest thought is so rich in detail that an entire world may unfold. But I have no proof whatsoever that we are living within anything of the kind. Even if we were then our challenges within this reality are still exactly the same. So what is the point?

    As far as it being monstrous there is suffering I think this is a childish point of view. We are a relatively primitive species only barely have begun our path to full development. Without negative feedback, which is what pain and suffering (even the self inflicted internal kind) is, we would not grow up. We are within a natural universe that we have not mastered. Nor have we mastered ourselves. Of course we suffer. Beings such as us could not exist or if they did exist could not learn and grow without it.

    As far as internal suffering and the supposed Buddhist cure all I don’t buy it for a second. Catch some disease and have your body turn on itself and see how much your suffering is really lessened by your steps towards supposedly letting go the causes of suffering.

    • Do they have to be ‘very into them’? Hans Moravec reasoned that Minds would have access to such vast information processing resources that ‘the barest flickers of interest by them in the human past will ensure that our entire history is replayed in full living detail, astronomically many times, in many places, and many, many variations’.

      Ray Bradbury estimated that a Matrioska Brain could emulate the entire history of human thought in a few microseconds, and even that impressive performance does not take into account computing at the absolute maximum speed/capacity allowed by the laws of physics. When confronted with the simulation argument, people assume great motivation and effort would be needed to put such a simulation in place. But estimates by Bradbury, Moravec and others show this feat would require minimal effort and the barest interest in the human past, given the incredible powers post-singularity civilizations have at their disposal.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s