[2010/07/20 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2010/07/20 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Materialism has steady narrowed the number of places where one may look for the spiritual..
[2010/07/20 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: oif!
[2010/07/20 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: And yet, people still have a need to connect to the spiritual..
[2010/07/20 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Can cyberspace fill this need?
[2010/07/20 15:33]  Lem Skall: you mean SOME people or ALL people?
[2010/07/20 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Consider some quotes from my friend Robert Geraci, who studied this topic..
[2010/07/20 15:33]  Lem Skall: I don’t need to connect to the spiritual
[2010/07/20 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: “Many game designers see game design as a specifically theological enterprise, as when Richard Bartle declares that ‘dieties created V-worlds; designers are those deities”.
[2010/07/20 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: “Consider a medieval Christian in his or her cathedral, with its paintings of heavenly realities and its power to reconcile humankind to the Christian god. Likewise, V worlds allow access to our true selves and to meaningful practices and communities”.
[2010/07/20 15:34]  Alexi Flux: Hej Lem, were all pretty spiritual here
[2010/07/20 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: “SL and similar games offer substitute forms of the sacred and new ways of dealing with it. Online gamers expect resolution to many of the problems of our daily lives: Freedom from drudgery, elevation to ‘specialness’, physical, emotional and intellectual empowerment and access to welcoming communities”.
[2010/07/20 15:34]  Lem Skall: I’m offended by that Alexi ;P
[2010/07/20 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: “10% of residents claimed they would consider SL heaven if some of its technical problems were overcome. 28% of residents find uploading their minds to SL an attractive alternative to daily life”.
[2010/07/20 15:34]  Alexi Flux: Were all a load of pixels
[2010/07/20 15:35]  Alexi Flux: cant get more spiritual than that
[2010/07/20 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Shazbot!
[2010/07/20 15:35]  Alexi Flux: In fact were just naked brains wanderin about
[2010/07/20 15:35]  Jamie Marlin: I am not certain that ‘a pllace I want to be’ is the same thing as ‘spiritual’
[2010/07/20 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: So! Given all that, should we consider online worlds (including MMORPGS) the place where materialists can find their spiritual and sacred side?
[2010/07/20 15:36]  Arisia Vita: welcome Peer!
[2010/07/20 15:36]  Peer Infinity: hi everyone 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:36]  Lem Skall: it seems like a loose use of the word spiritual to me
[2010/07/20 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey, Peer:)
[2010/07/20 15:36]  Lem Skall: hi Peer
[2010/07/20 15:36]  Alexi Flux: Hi Peer
[2010/07/20 15:36]  Jamie Marlin: Hi Peer
[2010/07/20 15:36]  Alexi Flux: yeah, lem, what yer definition then?
[2010/07/20 15:37]  Lem Skall: I dunno, closer to religion, supernatural
[2010/07/20 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe well, a definition of “spirituality” based on external things (nice buildings, nice images, nice rituals) is quite weak anyway….
[2010/07/20 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha, I might contest that, Lem 🙂 But we’d sidetrack
[2010/07/20 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Spirituality? What are we talking about? I thought it was something about virtual worlds. . .
[2010/07/20 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Zo
[2010/07/20 15:37]  Lem Skall: the Linden $ seems pretty material to me
[2010/07/20 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Keep in mind that I’ve missed basically everything up to now. 😛
[2010/07/20 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we just started!
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Lem Skall: Zo, that never matters
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: For Zoe..
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: “Many game designers see game design as a specifically theological enterprise, as when Richard Bartle declares that ‘dieties created V-worlds; designers are those deities”.
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: “Consider a medieval Christian in his or her cathedral, with its paintings of heavenly realities and its power to reconcile humankind to the Christian god. Likewise, V worlds allow access to our true selves and to meaningful practices and communities”.
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interestingly, Extropia, your quote somehow implies that “spirituality” is some sort of “escapism”….
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Lem Skall: whoa, so now we’re even talking about gods?
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: “Many” game designers? That’s the first one I’ve heard about. . .
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: “SL and similar games offer substitute forms of the sacred and new ways of dealing with it. Online gamers expect resolution to many of the problems of our daily lives: Freedom from drudgery, elevation to ‘specialness’, physical, emotional and intellectual empowerment and access to welcoming communities”.
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Jamie Marlin: You might be able to say that SL allows you to become the person you want to be – that is an arguably spiritual experience
[2010/07/20 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. as in “I’d consider SL heaven and would like to live in it”
[2010/07/20 15:39]  Lem Skall: I consider SL hell
[2010/07/20 15:39]  Lem Skall: and I like it
[2010/07/20 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Jamie!
[2010/07/20 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: “10% of residents claimed they would consider SL heaven if some of its technical problems were overcome. 28% of residents find uploading their minds to SL an attractive alternative to daily life”.
[2010/07/20 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There it is — attractive alternative
[2010/07/20 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Escapism 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really “spirituality”
[2010/07/20 15:39]  Jamie Marlin: I agree with Gwyn here
[2010/07/20 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not saying that some people believe that spirituality is a form of escapism 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: …. unfortunaely. many do
[2010/07/20 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: For it to be worth anyone’s while, an online world like SL aught to provide the opportunity to enrich one’s life, and make it better than RL.
[2010/07/20 15:40]  Lem Skall: you can’t be the person you want to be when you interact with other people, you are always influenced by them and you become in a large part something else
[2010/07/20 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hear, hear, Lem!
[2010/07/20 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interdependency 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That *can* be one possible use for SL, Extropia.
[2010/07/20 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m quite sure of it 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:41]  Lem Skall: I would like to be a nice person but I become an asshole when I am surrounded by idiots, present company not included 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: To me SL seems anti-spiritual. But maybe I’m missing something, I dunno. :/
[2010/07/20 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on what you expect spirituality to be, Zo
[2010/07/20 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Do remember that this refers to ALL online worlds, including MMORPGs like WOW and Everquest.
[2010/07/20 15:42]  Jamie Marlin: Lem? The difference here is that you are not limited by physical things – you choose the person you wish to present to the world
[2010/07/20 15:43]  Lem Skall: Jamie, but that is influenced by the world
[2010/07/20 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: We are limited in a way. By server capacity for example.
[2010/07/20 15:43]  Lem Skall: heavily too
[2010/07/20 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and other people as well.
[2010/07/20 15:44]  Lem Skall: that’s what I meant by the world
[2010/07/20 15:44]  Jamie Marlin: I agree that we are all influenced by the people around us. But – you have chouces here that you don’t have in RL
[2010/07/20 15:44]  Tansy Galaxy: hi, sorry I am late!
[2010/07/20 15:44]  Lem Skall: Extie, is typing as if she is writing the poem now
[2010/07/20 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (shameless plug: )
[2010/07/20 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Of course the book itself is more to do with an expectation (among people like Seren and myself) of an appocalyptic transformation brought about by technology. And how this H+ attitude finds a home in online worlds like SL.
[2010/07/20 15:45]  Alexi Flux: Hi tansy
[2010/07/20 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now where did that come from, Extie… 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and welcome, Tansy!
[2010/07/20 15:45]  Lem Skall: book? what book?
[2010/07/20 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me suspects that Extie’s primary is confused 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: reset, reset, reboot….
[2010/07/20 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope the warranty hasn’t expired 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: So with a bit of a stretch of the imagination you can take progress in computing, online worlds, neuroinformatics and so on and say ‘well my avatar is going to be uploaded into digital heaven, of which SL is a very primitive prototype’.
[2010/07/20 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2010/07/20 15:47]  Lem Skall: SL is more like a metaphor
[2010/07/20 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would side with Lem on the idea that SL is mostly hell,
[2010/07/20 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: in the sense that we *can* have an opportunity to change ourselves for the better,
[2010/07/20 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh the book…’Appocalyptic AI: Visions of heaven in AI, robotics and cyberpsace’ by Robert Geraci.
[2010/07/20 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but we don’t do that in SL
[2010/07/20 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So why would we do that in a “digital heaven”?
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Tansy Galaxy: but – some of us DO that in SL ??
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We bring our problems, worries, faults, and everything else we have as mental baggage,
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: from RL straight into SL,
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: how do we expect to create a heaven out of that?
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Tansy Galaxy: smile – what else do we have???
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What does Mr Geraci say?
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Luisa Bourgoin: we try. we believe we have a chance, since material needs are not that pressing inside SL
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that true of any online world/mmorpg?
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Lem Skall: speaking as an atheist, I think that we carry all that baggage also into heaven
[2010/07/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tansy — we have a lot more, but most people don’t bother to look inside themselves 😉
[2010/07/20 15:49]  Alexi Flux: I thought the idea was to creat a second life and not a parallel life
[2010/07/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: I do more than “think”, I’m *sure* we do.
[2010/07/20 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: What is the difference between the two, Alexi?
[2010/07/20 15:49]  Alexi Flux: I dont want all the shit I have in RL to vome here
[2010/07/20 15:49]  Alexi Flux: come
[2010/07/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that “shit” is inside our minds.
[2010/07/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If we don’t get rid of it,
[2010/07/20 15:49]  Luisa Bourgoin: Lem, I do hope Heaven will let nobody get inside!
[2010/07/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: why shouldn’t it come to SL as well?
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Alexi Flux: Yer can do things in SL what aint possible in RL fer a start
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Alexi Flux: if yer wanna go datin, then join a datin site in RL
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that some people (and that might include Extie’s quotes) believe that just because we can do whatever we want, we “suddenly” become better people without making an effort.
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Luisa.
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Alexi Flux: Why should it Gwyn
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Lem Skall: Alexi, you are a member of an atheist group, isn’t that coming from RL?
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Alexi Flux: I dont care, its up to each individual anyway
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Lem Skall: oh sorry, that wasn’t you
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Alexi Flux: Everone is diffferent
[2010/07/20 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Alexi!
[2010/07/20 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And most people don’t want to change themselves.
[2010/07/20 15:51]  Alexi Flux: Its all personal
[2010/07/20 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So they bring whatever worries their mind straight from RL into SL.
[2010/07/20 15:51]  Jamie Marlin: Aren’t you confusing ‘religious’ with ‘spiritual’? Or woth ‘disconnected from other people’? My most spiritual moments come with the people I love.
[2010/07/20 15:51]  Alexi Flux: No, I said yer dont need to bring crap froom RL to SL
[2010/07/20 15:51]  Tansy Galaxy: was there any expectation that they wouldn’t? I mean – how could they?
[2010/07/20 15:51]  Luisa Bourgoin: cannot change. everybody considers doing some change
[2010/07/20 15:51]  Alexi Flux: yer can build a life here if yer wa=nt
[2010/07/20 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can change, of course we can, Luisa.
[2010/07/20 15:52]  Luisa Bourgoin: its like “yes we can” and later realising…
[2010/07/20 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But do we WANT to change? No. Most don’t.
[2010/07/20 15:52]  Tansy Galaxy: but only out of whatever it is YOU , the RL you is made of
[2010/07/20 15:52]  Alexi Flux: But it seems most people are tryin to drag al the SVs back into RL
[2010/07/20 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: No, the point is LESS effort. NO effort is not meaningful or possible, too much effort= why bother? The trick is to provide meaningful communities, practices and personal development with just enough effort to A) make it feel like an accomplishment but B) is easier than it would be to do the same in RL (because if it were not why bother using cyberspace rather than RL to reach those goals?)
[2010/07/20 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alexi, but so long as your mind hasn’t changed, your life here will be the same as the life iRL.
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They’re not even making an effort to change themselves, Alexi, that’s why they create in SL the same kind of life they’re familiar with.
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Tansy Galaxy: have to agree with Gwyneth on that
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Lem Skall: Alexi, even trying to be different from RLis an influence of RL
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Jamie Marlin: Oh darn – I have to go! RL drags me away. Bye all!
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Alexi Flux: I aint, Gwyn
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye sis. *Hugggs*
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Love you:)
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Jamie Marlin: Bue sis!
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know, Tansy — I meant most people, not specific exceptions 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Jamie Marlin: bye, I mean
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Byee!
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Luisa Bourgoin: the barrier between both worlds is waaaay to thin
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Qie Niangao: I’m confused. The point of spirituality is to change oneself? Or is that the point of religion?
[2010/07/20 15:53]  Alexi Flux: Gotta see the log to seee what yer all said
[2010/07/20 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Qie, in my tradition, it’s definitely changing one’s mind 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie… so the idea is that SL might “ease the process” of mental change.
[2010/07/20 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that.
[2010/07/20 15:54]  Alexi Flux: Dont lets bring religion into spirituality
[2010/07/20 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How can it be “eased”?
[2010/07/20 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: See, I get to cuddle and snuggle Jamie Marlin every sunday. And you say SL is not heaven? For shame!
[2010/07/20 15:54]  Luisa Bourgoin: what is the point of religion! that makes a whole good toppic on its own
[2010/07/20 15:54]  Luisa Bourgoin: people vastly disagree upon answers
[2010/07/20 15:55]  Lem Skall: ok, so SL is heaven on Sundays
[2010/07/20 15:55]  Tansy Galaxy: and spirituality and religion should not be confused, they are not the same
[2010/07/20 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, there are ones that know what’s the point, and there are all the others that disagree with them 😉
[2010/07/20 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins @ Luisa
[2010/07/20 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: How do they differ?
[2010/07/20 15:55]  Tansy Galaxy: spirtuality is avaliable to all of us that don’t belive in any particular ‘god’
[2010/07/20 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like religions based on spirituality. Not all are 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:55]  Tansy Galaxy: its a state of being
[2010/07/20 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are religions without gods 😛
[2010/07/20 15:56]  Peer Infinity: yay for snuggly Jamie! 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:56]  Luisa Bourgoin: there are religions who’s gods would leave them
[2010/07/20 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: We could discuss the first half of the argument. HAS materialism, cosmology, evolution and sciences like that REALLY removed from the universe any place where the spritiual realm can reside?
[2010/07/20 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I was more interested in hearing Extie’s answer, instead of discussing “what is a religion”
[2010/07/20 15:57]  Tansy Galaxy: are there? Religions without gods? can’t think of one off hand
[2010/07/20 15:57]  Alexi Flux: If yer start talkin about religion yer goin down a dead end
[2010/07/20 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: My answer to what?
[2010/07/20 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tansy: just off my mind…. Taoism, Confucionism, Shinto…. and possibly Buddhism, for thsoe that consider it a religion
[2010/07/20 15:57]  Lem Skall: Extie, the answer is no, it can still be in our minds and that’s where spirituality always was
[2010/07/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, your suggestion on how SL and virtual worlds can make spirituality easier than in RL.
[2010/07/20 15:58]  Alexi Flux: and ere we are, all naked minds
[2010/07/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I gave a hint on that article I posted the link to
[2010/07/20 15:58]  Tansy Galaxy: yeah Ok, maybeee, we could discuss that, but this is not that discusion! 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One idea at least…
[2010/07/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d like to hear more ideas 🙂
[2010/07/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yours or from the authors you quoted.
[2010/07/20 15:58]  Luisa Bourgoin: I’m feeling off track … how to set back onto the road to toppic again
[2010/07/20 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Well there was Philip’s theory, that people fast forward through material aquisition..Ok I got my hot body, nice clothes, huge big house with a view of the ocean..jet pack…and then they think ‘but what else is there’?
[2010/07/20 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: hey darling! hey all
[2010/07/20 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Seren)
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: that’s an interesting thought, extie. . .
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm. So you think that SL might help people to minimise materialistic attachments?
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me looks at her 25k inventory. Naaaah.
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It makes it worse lol
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Lem Skall: Extie, there is interaction with the other people after the material side but is that spirituality?
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Seren, you read Geraci’s book. Any comments on the chapter to do with SL and how online worlds cater for the sacred and the spritual?
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Tansy Galaxy: I think the coment that they can go thru all the material steps they ‘want’ in RL is valid though
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, ok, I know…. anedoctal evidence is not proof of anything.
[2010/07/20 16:00]  Luisa Bourgoin: after all material aquisitions, they realise emtyenss surrounding
[2010/07/20 16:01]  Qie Niangao: perhaps minimize the importance of those achievements… when one can just rez a new Mercedes at whim
[2010/07/20 16:01]  Serendipity Seraph: things are pretty easy to acquire here. I have to spelunk inventory occassionaly to discover what I already own
[2010/07/20 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also mmmh…. “materialism” is not opposite to spirituality. Owning things is not necessarily *against* spirituality. It’s just how you react to the things you own that is a problem.
[2010/07/20 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Perhaps it does not have to BE spritual. Maybe it is enough that it can serve all the purposes that we look to ths spritual to satisfy?
[2010/07/20 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Escapism again?
[2010/07/20 16:01]  Lem Skall: then why do we still have to pay LL for land?
[2010/07/20 16:01]  Serendipity Seraph: do we have a working defn for “spirituality”?
[2010/07/20 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: From Extie’s quotes, it seems like a sort of escapism 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:02]  Lem Skall: ah, Ser, I’ve been trying to get that
[2010/07/20 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And sure, Seren — getting back in touch with your natural state of the mind 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:02]  Lem Skall: my natural state of mind is asleep
[2010/07/20 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: So like, do you A) put your faith in prayer or B) just go down to the uploading centre and say ‘upload my mind into cyberparadise version 22.3 thank you very much’?
[2010/07/20 16:02]  Luisa Bourgoin: spirituality is something you can find
[2010/07/20 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not a bad answer, Lem — more profound than you think!
[2010/07/20 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: hmm? the natural state as evolved from chimps is spiritual?
[2010/07/20 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We didn’t evolve from chimps, but sure, chimps also have a natural state of mind too.
[2010/07/20 16:03]  Luisa Bourgoin: I should approach my natural state soon, this evening
[2010/07/20 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: not big on “faith” if it means believing in assertions I have no evidence for
[2010/07/20 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. getting asleep 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:03]  Lem Skall: oh, Gwyn has read Gurdjieff
[2010/07/20 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: big into faith as in vision of better state and its possibility perhaps
[2010/07/20 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I’ve read Siddharta, Lem 😛
[2010/07/20 16:04]  Lem Skall: same thing ;P
[2010/07/20 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: we did evolve from chimps. our genetics is 99% chimp
[2010/07/20 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh…
[2010/07/20 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: or our primaries did
[2010/07/20 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me throws Darwin at Seren 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:04]  Lem Skall: no, chimps and us have evolved from the same animals
[2010/07/20 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What you mean is that chimps and homo sapiens have a common ancestor, but chimps are not our ancestors, Seren 😉
[2010/07/20 16:05]  Luisa Bourgoin: a chimp civilisation would, occasionally, be much more desireable than our homo insaniens version
[2010/07/20 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Chimps and humans both evolved from a common ancestor. We are evolutionary cousins rather than evol;utionary parents/children.
[2010/07/20 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or I hope that’s what you mean.
[2010/07/20 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: I have read more Eastern religious tomes and general mysticism than you would want me to throw at you, gwyn. 🙂 besides we would be here for days..
[2010/07/20 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d love to 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: chimps are not nice creatures particularly
[2010/07/20 16:06]  Lem Skall: homo sapiens are not nice creatures either
[2010/07/20 16:06]  Tansy Galaxy: neither are people! so thats ok
[2010/07/20 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, Luisa. Look at what motivates chimps: get food, reproduce, sleep, protect your family/mates
[2010/07/20 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Escapism. Well, heaven is a form of escapism, no? Escape from death, for one thing.
[2010/07/20 16:06]  Serendipity Seraph: so what is spirituality that we seek it?
[2010/07/20 16:06]  Lem Skall: I don’t seek it
[2010/07/20 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Belief in a heaven where you’re escaping death is certainly a form of escapism, yes.
[2010/07/20 16:06]  Serendipity Seraph: it is a being integrated and fully alive and at some measure of peace, right?
[2010/07/20 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me likes Loves Serendipity 🙂 hehe
[2010/07/20 16:07]  Lem Skall: belief in something that is beyond what we know
[2010/07/20 16:07]  Loves Serendipity: aww thanks
[2010/07/20 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Friend of yours, love?
[2010/07/20 16:07]  Luisa Bourgoin: spirituality is based upon desires of reaching final goals. stuff you cannot buy like “paradise”|
[2010/07/20 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Being integrated and fully alive will definitely give you a BIG measure of peace 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: dunno, but pretty cool. 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No no, Luisa — if it is based upon DESIRES it’s not spirituality, at best it’s spiritual materialism 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:08]  Tansy Galaxy: spirtuality is more a day to day, being at one with yourself and the world – to my mind
[2010/07/20 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: there is a lot beyond what we know but does that make it “spiritual”?
[2010/07/20 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: Is spiritual a synonym for ignoranace for instance?
[2010/07/20 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really. What science ignores (e.g. “is there REALLY dark matter?”) isn’t exactly “spirituality”, it’s just ignorance. But a particular kind of ignorance which is temporary: we might get an answer to dark matter.
[2010/07/20 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: what is it we feel or that draws us in the spiritual?
[2010/07/20 16:09]  Luisa Bourgoin: /me suddenly realises not beeing a spiritually oriented person
[2010/07/20 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: When we seek out the spritual, what are we looking for? What do we hope to find? (or, of like Lem you never look, what do those people who DO look hope to find?)
[2010/07/20 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe not really, Seren 🙂 Unless you mean: not being spiritual implies being ignorant about our own natural state of mind 🙂 In that case, I’d agree.
[2010/07/20 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Science is a search for knowledge. Spirituality is a search for meaning.
[2010/07/20 16:10]  Tansy Galaxy: and some how don’t work – find it anyway
[2010/07/20 16:10]  Serendipity Seraph: meaning. good..
[2010/07/20 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2010/07/20 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: So, in what sense does cyberspace help is find meaning?
[2010/07/20 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: *us?
[2010/07/20 16:10]  Serendipity Seraph: what gives meaning? or what kind of meaning do we seek?
[2010/07/20 16:10]  Lem Skall: “Whilst the terms spirituality and religion can both refer to the search for the Absolute or God, an increasing number of people have come to see the two as separate entities, religion being just one way in which humans can experience spirituality”
[2010/07/20 16:10]  Lem Skall: from
[2010/07/20 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meaning, meaning…. I just see that as pattern matching
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Luisa Bourgoin: “natural state of mind” … I luv that answer today brought. s-l-e-e-p-!
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t think an Absolute is required for spirituality
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Qie Niangao: Yeah, as this discussion progresses, I’m finding I have less and less patience for “spirituality” in general. It seems to be a practice in the art of believing that one is achieving the unattainable… and if God forbid that should be obtained, in deftly moving the goalposts just out of reach.
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It certainly helps, Seren 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Serendipity Seraph: one of the most spiritual people I know is a staunch atheist
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heeh Qie
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: who is that?
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Meaning has to come from within. The objective universe doesn’t provide it. But maybe a virtual world, by give us creative freedom, allows us more insight into ourselves.
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good, I like attainable things 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:11]  Lem Skall: me
[2010/07/20 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren, same here. The most spiritual people I know all are atheists.
[2010/07/20 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *are all
[2010/07/20 16:12]  Serendipity Seraph: meaning comes from within. so it is a state of mind or relationship to existence?
[2010/07/20 16:13]  Lem Skall: is nihilism then part of spirituality or its opposite?
[2010/07/20 16:13]  Tansy Galaxy: I think it is very posible that we can see here in SL – that being ‘beautiful’ and having all the material things, isn’t making us automaticly ‘happy’ – so yes we might start looking deeper and find more of our own selves by it
[2010/07/20 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Well what about the sacred then? Say you invest all of your best qualities and skills in your avatar and she comes to have the kind of life you always wanted? Would you then start to idolise your avvie and treat it like a sacred thing?
[2010/07/20 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo, I’d say, the “objective universe”, first, is more subjective than objective 🙂 If you can’t find any meaning in it, cyberspace, being part of that universe, won’t contain it either 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tansy, that might be another “aid”; yes.
[2010/07/20 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: andy why do I get an X on some chat windows but not others?
[2010/07/20 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: Tansy, you definded beeing happy a goal, dont you
[2010/07/20 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, that’s even more than escapism…. that’s Holy Escapism 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: anything that is invested with our highest hopes, dreams, ideals and love long enough bceomes more or less “sacred”
[2010/07/20 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Meaning isn’t found, it’s assigned. We assign meaning to things.
[2010/07/20 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most people — in fact,. most animals! — would use that goal, yes, Luisa
[2010/07/20 16:14]  Lem Skall: more like a sacred cow
[2010/07/20 16:14]  Tansy Galaxy: oh, no, I don’t think so, ‘content’ is different, and comfortable is too, and those are more my goals
[2010/07/20 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: that doesn’t make a lot of sense saying the objective is subjective. like saying Hot is Cold
[2010/07/20 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Zo. That’s what our mind is always doing: pattern matching. Tagging. Assigning context to things. Providing classifications.
[2010/07/20 16:15]  Luisa Bourgoin: persuit of happiness
[2010/07/20 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Symbolic thinking. . .
[2010/07/20 16:15]  Serendipity Seraph: we are meaning making machines..
[2010/07/20 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes!
[2010/07/20 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: We could get back to that point I made in an old essay. That Gwyn’s primary has invested so much in Gwyn’s various online presences it is unimaginable she would quit runnning Gwyn. So Gwyn controls her primary and uses ver to perpetuate her sacred pattterns.
[2010/07/20 16:15]  Tansy Galaxy: yes, we require comfotable patterns
[2010/07/20 16:15]  Lem Skall: isn’t the meaning always there and we just uncover it?
[2010/07/20 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren, i was just pointing out that there isn’t such a thing as an “objective universe” 🙂 We just perceive it through our minds, so it’s always a subjective experience.
[2010/07/20 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, hail to the sacred patterns 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: I think sacred means more than what you value enough to want to keep it though
[2010/07/20 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: yes there is gwyn, obviously
[2010/07/20 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Like,,,the way flowers have a control over bees through the power of the ‘advertisements’ in color,scent etc.
[2010/07/20 16:16]  Luisa Bourgoin: Extie, not necessarily investment. just beeing virtual draws those side effects. its just a matter of time
[2010/07/20 16:16]  Tansy Galaxy: well – all hell lets lose when you try to make folks change their patters!! so indeed
[2010/07/20 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sacred, for me, means everything that can aid me to get back in touch with my natural state of the mind. If SL allows me that, I’d consider SL sacred.
[2010/07/20 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is not contradictory that there is an objective universe that is perceived subjectively.
[2010/07/20 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: No not at all.
[2010/07/20 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well said, Art!
[2010/07/20 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: how do you know your natural state is a meaningful concept and that it is what you really want?
[2010/07/20 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: Sl beeing sacred because it makes sleepy?
[2010/07/20 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: What about a subjective universe perceived objectively? 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha. I’m *sure* it’s NOT a concept, Seren 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I’m also sure that at this stage I can only see it as a concept.
[2010/07/20 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that’s my own limitation.
[2010/07/20 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Working on it 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: there is no perceiver and nothing to perceive if there is no objective reality
[2010/07/20 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear!
[2010/07/20 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: A is A..
[2010/07/20 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: may as well just shut up completely – all though, everything
[2010/07/20 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You DID really read those boks, Seren!
[2010/07/20 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh no.
[2010/07/20 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s just half of the story 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other half is that we do, indeed, perceive a LOT of things
[2010/07/20 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And we kick stones all the time and know they hurt.
[2010/07/20 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would say that by definition there cannot be a subjective universe. There can only be subjective perception.
[2010/07/20 16:19]  Serendipity Seraph: all illusion if you go down that road.
[2010/07/20 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So…. even if there is no perceiver and nothing to perceive, and no objective reality …— nevertheless, we kick stones and we hurt.
[2010/07/20 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: ten minutes or so to go so…does this quote tell us more about how great SL is/could be or how bad RL is?
[2010/07/20 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: 28% of residents find uploading their minds to SL an attractive alternative to daily life”.
[2010/07/20 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So there is still cause and effect
[2010/07/20 16:19]  Serendipity Seraph: it is utterly irrelevant if no reality
[2010/07/20 16:19]  Lem Skall: can the spiritual exist WITHOUT the material and the physical?
[2010/07/20 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (why not ask if one comes from the other, Lem?)
[2010/07/20 16:20]  Tansy Galaxy: we will find that out, after we die! if we are lucky
[2010/07/20 16:20]  Luisa Bourgoin: since RL still builts the foundations of playing SL, there is no such concept like uploading
[2010/07/20 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: How one gets to be an expert on the spritual plane is what I would like to know:)
[2010/07/20 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Seren! But we can’t shrug off cause and effect. Things don’t just happen randomly. If I kick a stone, it hurts, and the stone still rolls away. So I cannot say, “oh, nothing exists, everything happens randomly, it’s all illusion”
[2010/07/20 16:21]  Serendipity Seraph: you assume there is a *you* after you die, Tansy?
[2010/07/20 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: I like SL plenty or I wouldn’t still be here. But. . . There’s also a *lot* of room for improvement.
[2010/07/20 16:21]  Tansy Galaxy: no, I ‘hope’ 🙂 but I have no such real belief
[2010/07/20 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes there is. But I see your point. Any computer ultimately exists in the physical universe, so uploading is no true escape from reality. Right?
[2010/07/20 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: SL is the first crude, clumsy, half-baked virtual world.
[2010/07/20 16:21]  Luisa Bourgoin: /me wounders how Buddhism would have developped if playstations existed 1000 years ago
[2010/07/20 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: I say that the ‘spiritual’ exists only by defining perceptions as such. So it can exist in any context.
[2010/07/20 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope there is no “me” after i die…. I wouldn’t want to impose my self to another group of people — poor them
[2010/07/20 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Apart from all the ones preceeding it, yes.
[2010/07/20 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: you can say that you seem to exist experiencing something happening and that it has predictable patterns
[2010/07/20 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa, watch them in 1000 years, and you’ll have your answer 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: The first widespread one, I mean.
[2010/07/20 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: how is that different from saying something exists, i.e., that there is objective reality?
[2010/07/20 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Seren. So a least that “something” is around us, and it cannot be “illusion” neither “random”
[2010/07/20 16:22]  Tansy Galaxy: and, how do we know that our RL – isn’t soneone elses SL ?? That its not all just a series of ‘boxes’ ??? THATS a thought that scares me actually
[2010/07/20 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: You do not die Gwyn. Your patterns just fade out because nobody and nothing capable of running them can be bothered to do so.
[2010/07/20 16:23]  Luisa Bourgoin: Tansy, Extie wrote about your fears…
[2010/07/20 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My bod certainly dies, Extie 🙂 As to the rest, well… I’m sure that my brain won’t work without a body hehe
[2010/07/20 16:23]  Lem Skall: Tansy, that wou;d still mean that there is an RL though
[2010/07/20 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I did?
[2010/07/20 16:23]  Serendipity Seraph: I think you just led me round and round that mysticism bush, gwyn. 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:23]  Tansy Galaxy: somewhere, yes! 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: What were Tansy’s fears?
[2010/07/20 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren, the idea of an objective reality implies that we all see it in *exactly the same way*. But that’s not the case!
[2010/07/20 16:23]  Tansy Galaxy: that our RL people are someone elses avis
[2010/07/20 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh that. yeah, probably.
[2010/07/20 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: they could be. some schools more or less think that
[2010/07/20 16:24]  Luisa Bourgoin: box-ina-box
[2010/07/20 16:24]  Lem Skall: now THAT’s a VW I would invest in
[2010/07/20 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: like we are some other kind of being and we started playing this weird game that was so immersive we got lost and think that is who we are.
[2010/07/20 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: ‘Spiritual’ is amorphous and non specific enough to be applied to all sorts of different experiences. I think that means that things are ‘spiritual’ ONLY because we attribute that word to that whole panoply of various experiences.
[2010/07/20 16:25]  Tansy Galaxy: naw, we all have ‘off’ days, 🙂 they go back to RL too
[2010/07/20 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t need schools to tell me what I observe…. some days, I see things in a certain way when I’m happy, some days things look different, when I’m depressed. So how can I say that teh reality around me is “objective” and absolute, when it depends on my moods?
[2010/07/20 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL is heaven or hell depending on how I feel 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:25]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, you? depressed?
[2010/07/20 16:25]  Serendipity Seraph: your moods are part of objective reality.
[2010/07/20 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SOmetimes lag is unbearable, sometimes I’m having so much fun I don’t even notice lag.
[2010/07/20 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hehe Lem — well, depressed is a strong word 🙂 )
[2010/07/20 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Are they really, Seren, or are they just something that happens inside my brain?
[2010/07/20 16:26]  Luisa Bourgoin: do you know what your avi does when you log?
[2010/07/20 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m sure they are *related* to external things, but my moods are ultimately part of my brain processes.
[2010/07/20 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: WEll, we can’t really go down the ‘nothing is real’ road. That is an empty alley. Cause and effect is real enough for us to know it and see it. If we deny that, we have no where to go in any arguments.
[2010/07/20 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What I just said, Art 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: business call coming in. have to run. may be back..
[2010/07/20 16:27]  Tansy Galaxy: Luisa, What does an Avi do?? 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: see you, Seren 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:28]  Luisa Bourgoin: I dreamed of me dancing in a club, while the laptop has been shut down
[2010/07/20 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: You still exist in Sl after you log, because your ‘self’ is partially copied into the minds of people you interact with. The more time they spend with you, the better their model of your ‘I’ is. Whenever Gwyn or someone thinks ‘Extie would like…bet Extie would think… and so on, I have a presence in SL.
[2010/07/20 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, Art, that’s what I meant. Cause and effect are always easy to prove that they are always around. At the same time, it’s clear that we perceive the universe through our own subjective experience. Now…. I wonder, can SL actually help us in understanding these things a bit better?
[2010/07/20 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If so, we can argue that SL is a tool, an aid, for spirituality.
[2010/07/20 16:29]  Luisa Bourgoin: one exists as long as people know one does exists. agreeing upon that
[2010/07/20 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (including ourselves, Luisa 🙂 )
[2010/07/20 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and yes, that’s interdependency
[2010/07/20 16:29]  Luisa Bourgoin: yes, one self is sufficient
[2010/07/20 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Especially when people think ‘wonder what Extie is doing right now’ when I am completely offline. Well I do not exist, but they IMAGINE I am somewhere doing something so subjectively I do!
[2010/07/20 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In theory, yes.
[2010/07/20 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You certainly do exist, Extie 🙂
[2010/07/20 16:29]  Lem Skall: Extie, do we have any fun in other people’s minds when we are logged off?
[2010/07/20 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2010/07/20 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: Everyone knows that when they can’t see me that I am shopping!
[2010/07/20 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol oh yes!
[2010/07/20 16:30]  Luisa Bourgoin: oh, we can see you inside a shop, too
[2010/07/20 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Some of us do, I expect.
[2010/07/20 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: So…time for some closing comments…to what extent DOES cyberspace cater for spiritual./sacred needs?
[2010/07/20 16:31]  Lem Skall: I will never know, I guess
[2010/07/20 16:31]  Tansy Galaxy: but I think it is true to say that the SL avi affects – for good or bad! – the RL person
[2010/07/20 16:32]  Lem Skall: it caters to very material needs of LL
[2010/07/20 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: What, all of cyberspace?
[2010/07/20 16:32]  Lem Skall: YES
[2010/07/20 16:32]  Tansy Galaxy: cyberspace, It must be the same argument that ancients had when we now had ‘books’ – it just a new tool
[2010/07/20 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have a question: If you don’t accept mind/body duality, is it possible to be ‘spritual’?
[2010/07/20 16:32]  Lem Skall: well, “someone’s” material needs
[2010/07/20 16:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: spiritual gatherings are possible … a VR can serve them
[2010/07/20 16:33]  Tansy Galaxy: shrug, who knows Art – I would say so
[2010/07/20 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … by making us crash, SL shows us how temporary everything is, and we also learn patience!
[2010/07/20 16:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Doesn’t spiritual imply the existence of spirit?
[2010/07/20 16:34]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, you had any fun in our minds while you crashed?
[2010/07/20 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I can’t see your minds, Lem 😛
[2010/07/20 16:34]  Luisa Bourgoin: aaaand SL shaprens our senses for beauty
[2010/07/20 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
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