THINKERS JULY 14 2010: BETTER OFF BUT MISERABLE.

[2010/07/13 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: It is fair to say that, materially-speaking, our generation is better off than any before it. And yet, it has been found that our generation is less happy. So…how can that be?
[2010/07/13 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: eek Zo!
[2010/07/13 15:35]  Serendipity Seraph: yep. took 3 minutes just to bring up app, four to finish login, 3 – 5 more to finish rezzing
[2010/07/13 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: I know I know!
[2010/07/13 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Too MUCH choice!
[2010/07/13 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: All those scripts sometimes make teleporting hard.
[2010/07/13 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi, Arisia!
[2010/07/13 15:36]  Arisia Vita: Hi all
[2010/07/13 15:36]  Serendipity Seraph: and this is on a pretty powerful desktop and high speed line.
[2010/07/13 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello, Ari!!
[2010/07/13 15:36]  Luisa Bourgoin: 700 can be seen as some shure sign of ancient programing. some functions now allow single scripts doing the work of formerly hundreds
[2010/07/13 15:36]  Serendipity Seraph: hey Ari
[2010/07/13 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: I beg to disagree that earlier generations were happier. Maybe in the brief interludum of the post WW2, but that wasn’t happier, that was ‘relieved’. I am over 200 years old, and I can give you a blank check that people between 1850 and 1900 were completely miserable.
[2010/07/13 15:36]  Blaine Quandry: i dont think we are better off having materialistic things..creates a hooman that wants more and is never satisfied
[2010/07/13 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you know, Ari, every time I play Sorority Life on facebook, I think of you… hehe
[2010/07/13 15:37]  Arisia Vita: oh?
[2010/07/13 15:37]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t think we are less happy. I think the studies that say so are BS
[2010/07/13 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: It was my hair. I had those resize scripts. . . which means, one in every prim. But it also has an option to delete them all once you’re happy with it.
[2010/07/13 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me suggests reading material: The Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz
[2010/07/13 15:37]  Serendipity Seraph: for a starting position. 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:37]  blissDK Constantine: post ww2 was a numb period for some
[2010/07/13 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s because you are always so polite and gentle, Ari — and the programmers of Sorority Life did the same for their ‘bot “boyfriends” lol
[2010/07/13 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice
[2010/07/13 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Every time I see a cow, or a sheep, or an ear of corn or a wheatfield, I think of my friend Leia who plays farmville an awful lot.
[2010/07/13 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie 😀
[2010/07/13 15:37]  Luisa Bourgoin: who had been happy arround 1800 ? …the ones who left trails in literature aren’t necessarily representing joe average
[2010/07/13 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Not in Europe it wasnt
[2010/07/13 15:38]  blissDK Constantine: greece had civil war
[2010/07/13 15:38]  Qie Niangao: The absolute level of happiness-making-stuff doesn’t matter to happiness. it’s the slope in the happiness-making-stuff curve.
[2010/07/13 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: The standard explanation goes like this…
[2010/07/13 15:38]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t think “happy” has all that much to do with what you have or don’t have beyond a certain level.
[2010/07/13 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me thinks she missed the topic for today and looks it up
[2010/07/13 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: One study that I read (about) found that material wealth makes people happy up to a point — when their basic needs are covered. If you have clothes, shelter, food, electricity, running water. . . then you are pretty much there. After that, more happiness only comes from your relationships with other people.
[2010/07/13 15:38]  blissDK Constantine: happiness is the lack of suffering
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Blaine Quandry: i am thrilled i had a hot shower today. What luxury..then i went to buy food..another luxery..but then had to listen to the fat kid whine to his over indulgent mother about how his new ipod broke
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha Zo… that’s the famous pyramid…. I wish I had a memory to quote the author
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Blaine Quandry: /me sighs
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Serendipity Seraph: relationships is only one thing to be happy about though
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Blaine!
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: If you walked anny 1870 on the streets in London you would have sworn that half of them should be hospitalized IMMEDIATELY and near all were stark raving mad and oozing raw despair. I COMPLETELY challenge the notion that 2010 is comparatively unhappy. We just get a chance to whiiiine more.
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Once basic needs are met, you measure your happiness in terms of how your lifestyle compares to your neighbours. If everyone around you is equally poor, you will be content. Now, we, thanks to the media, have our lives filled daily by people very much better off and successful than we are. So we are not happy at all.
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: And I am an expert on whiiiining
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Serendipity Seraph: there are hobbies and activities, if you are lucking even work that you enjoy
[2010/07/13 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear, Khannea — we’re all children of paradise whining that we don’t have more apples to eat
[2010/07/13 15:39]  blissDK Constantine: 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: there is a sense of one’s own worth or possibilities
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: of an open future..
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: for self or kids
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Blaine Quandry: i think some people need to go cold and hungry to really figure out what is a priority..then we would want less shit
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, looking at the tabloids and pink media, those “better off and successful” people are hardly happier than I am…
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Blaine Quandry: can i say shit?
[2010/07/13 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: I has been shown that when you have only one choice of a radio for example. You appreciate the radio more than if you have 100 choices, because you are always thinking that you made the wrong choice of radio. So being poor isn’t the cause of lack of satisfaction.
[2010/07/13 15:40]  blissDK Constantine: isnt the US one of the only contrys with a poor population with an obeisity problem
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Fuck yah you can say shit.
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: divorces, breaking up, litigation, drugs…. 🙂 that’s what they talk about
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Blaine Quandry: /me grins
[2010/07/13 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: tabloids and pink media are worth a lot. 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:41]  Blaine Quandry: i say shut it all off.
[2010/07/13 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they mirror society 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:41]  Blaine Quandry: as i sit in front of my computer…
[2010/07/13 15:41]  Blaine Quandry: blink blink
[2010/07/13 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: no they don’t
[2010/07/13 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: don’t shut the computer down by mistake, Blaine 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:41]  Luisa Bourgoin: fullfilled needs equals happiness. Inside a world filled with advertisings … there are induced needs not satisfied
[2010/07/13 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: not any society I inhabit
[2010/07/13 15:41]  Qie Niangao: but people will be very unhappy if you take everything away… and very happy if you give it back. It’s that slope thing.
[2010/07/13 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: It turns out that the happiness quotient of countries depends more on climate than on anything else. I find that fascinating.
[2010/07/13 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: I live in a small town in a rural area. Just about anything in this town that I decide I really want, I could get it. Which isn’t much. . . But it does help to not be constantly surrounded by things that aren’t out of your reach, I think.
[2010/07/13 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: ability to do thinks, a feeling of open possibility I think are essential
[2010/07/13 15:42]  blissDK Constantine: i think greed leeds to unhappiness
[2010/07/13 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: once you get something, you’ll be happy as long as you don’t think of maintaining it… then you’ll get anxious because you might lose it… which you will, sooner or later
[2010/07/13 15:42]  Blaine Quandry: i opt to own very little
[2010/07/13 15:42]  Blaine Quandry: basics mostly
[2010/07/13 15:42]  blissDK Constantine: i have seen “poor” people who worship materials more than people with money
[2010/07/13 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed, bliss!
[2010/07/13 15:43]  Serendipity Seraph: I think bad self-programming, especially if you get it unconsciously from mass media and the people around you, causes a lot of unhappiness
[2010/07/13 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: As a wise man (Yoda) said ‘train yourself to let go of all that you fear to lose’.
[2010/07/13 15:43]  Qie Niangao: hmmm… climate? as in amount of daylight, perhaps?
[2010/07/13 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s quite true 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: There is however a flip side to all this. If you hae a population of animals, of whatever kind -yellowstone is a good example – and liberatye them of natural predation, you will ALWAYS see the population become extremely miserable after 3-4 generations. Downright pathetic, with deformities and minor ailments and all sorts of afflcutions. Now… humanity has more or less known no natural predators for a LOT more than 3 generations. Might it be that pioeple are grumpier because genetic fitness has been deteriorating because ‘all the gimps stay alive and breed’ ? I mean – ADHD, autism, allergies…
[2010/07/13 15:43]  Blaine Quandry: /me flings self to floor
[2010/07/13 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: In the Schwartz Book that I referenced above, there seems to be not much correlation with happiness and wealth vs poverty.
[2010/07/13 15:43]  Aebleskiver Thibedeau: /me blinks
[2010/07/13 15:44]  blissDK Constantine: to make an odd quote, … the rich man is not the one who has collected many possesions but the one who needs few possessions” john chrysostom
[2010/07/13 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: stay there Blaine I want a snapshot.
[2010/07/13 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t think a bunch of kick-ass predators trying to eat me would add at all to my happiness, K.
[2010/07/13 15:44]  Qie Niangao: only the happy survive, apparently
[2010/07/13 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: but you have a point perhaps about genetic fitness. or about what works well enough to get more of it.
[2010/07/13 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: No but you are of excellent gentic stock, sipster. But walk the streets and ask yourself – would society be a lot more happy, statistically speaking, if we still had big attritional wars and famines every 60 years?
[2010/07/13 15:45]  blissDK Constantine: there is a separation of the mental and the physical
[2010/07/13 15:45]  blissDK Constantine: look at Hawkings
[2010/07/13 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: It has been shown by people who study these things that too much choice always leads to anxiety. It violates our initial hunter/gatherer makeup. See, eat.
[2010/07/13 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: (OK you can move now)
[2010/07/13 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so, I have to say I didn’t do my homework. There is a well-fundamented theory that we humans are wired to slowly erase bad memories (good ones, unfortunately, will also fade, just not as fast). This is actually considered to be an evolutionary advantage. So what it means is that as we look back into our memories, we *always* think the “good old times” were in the past, just because we suffer more in the present.
[2010/07/13 15:45]  blissDK Constantine: i agree art
[2010/07/13 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sadly, I wished to give a reference to that theory 😦
[2010/07/13 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I was lazy and forgot to look it up.
[2010/07/13 15:46]  Serendipity Seraph: my genetics aren’t that great.
[2010/07/13 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: Fact remains that if ya have a good famine every so often, the weaker specimen – that cant ake care of their respective happyness and have to rely on others – are culled. Those that remain can take better care of their happyness stay alive.
[2010/07/13 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: helo Arch.
[2010/07/13 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The notion of the good old times exists across all human societies, at all times.
[2010/07/13 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya Arch!
[2010/07/13 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: dunno … famine … happyness … africa
[2010/07/13 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: /me sighs. . .
[2010/07/13 15:46]  blissDK Constantine: often the ones culled are just the physicaly strong and not those mentaly strong
[2010/07/13 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me treasures the good old times of Second Life right this second.
[2010/07/13 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: I know that this idea is extremely politically incorrect and at first glance unspeakably offensive.
[2010/07/13 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Nobody is suggesting that we are unhappier than somebody who is so poverty striken they are starving. This is NOT about the haves and have nots, but the haves and have MORES.
[2010/07/13 15:47]  blissDK Constantine: the world seems to be breeding sheep and not clever old men who …
[2010/07/13 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: if you believe that good things are in your life or can be sometime soon that seems to be a key
[2010/07/13 15:47]  Qie Niangao: I suppose the herd is being thinned of poor drivers… I’m not sure that’s making me happier.
[2010/07/13 15:48]  blissDK Constantine: once again “believing” is a mental task
[2010/07/13 15:48]  Blaine Quandry: growing stuff makes me happy.
[2010/07/13 15:48]  Blaine Quandry: making stuff
[2010/07/13 15:48]  Blaine Quandry: having water makes me so very happy
[2010/07/13 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know it sounds terrible, when one billion people are starving, and another billion is close to it, but the reality is that currently *all* humans on this planet are *far* better off than, say, 50 years ago… way way better than 100 years ago, and so forth…. and this is both in relative and absolute numbers.
[2010/07/13 15:48]  Serendipity Seraph: yes. what we tell ourselves is a big part of it
[2010/07/13 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Apparently enjoying what you DO have and not longing for what you do not have is the key to happiness. YOu know, the old Be Here Now thing.
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: yes, gwyn
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: If you want to be happy, I have the answer. Check it –> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia,_Texas
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Art! Contentment is the key 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:49]  blissDK Constantine: yes art
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Zo
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll skip that, thanks 😉
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: longing is fine as long as you believe you have a chance of getting it
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Luisa Bourgoin: Blaine, sounds of water flowing can induce happiness. Install a water well inside your home
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Blaine Quandry: organically grown pot makes me happy too..but work piss tests do not
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Archmage Atlantis: Hello Gwyn….it it signifigant that you are here
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It is? 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Blaine Quandry: i live near a river
[2010/07/13 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: gratitude for what you do have is a big part tho
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Blaine Quandry: i find alot of people dont have gratitude.
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren: Not if you suffer from that longing (in the sense that you’re always anxious about it)
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: People have a capacity on being happy. This is a formula to how healthy they are. How much tghey got. How much they may get. The means to assert their talents. And social interactions. Relative physical health will affect four out of five of these. Now I say, if human populations are ‘underculled’ we end up with people with less capability to guarantee their own genetic fitness, and come to a state we refer to as happy.
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh I forgot – 6- getting laid.
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Archmage Atlantis: Many are afraid
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Blaine Quandry: thats why i wans to take it all away!!
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: I sometimes wonder about the efficiency of the news. How it might get to a disaster more quickly than ever before…so we get to know about the ills of the world more than previous generations…so we tend to have more ‘mean world syndrome’ in which you think the world is going to hell.
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Serendipity Seraph: anxiousness is mental programming again
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Khannea
[2010/07/13 15:50]  blissDK Constantine: “Hope is the optumists dope” me
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, exactly!
[2010/07/13 15:50]  blissDK Constantine: i want to know how to spell
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Seren!
[2010/07/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The good news: you can de-programme anxiety 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The bad news: it takes a lot of effort 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: I think that is part of it, extie. I also think the world has become complex and fast moving enough that many are not wired for it.
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: or not wired well
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Blaine Quandry: speaking of effort i gotta go to yoga..peace all..
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Archmage Atlantis: When you done done
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: perhaps none of us really are
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Archmage Atlantis: This is yoga
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the inability to cope with change is certainly a major factor of unhappiness,
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but that’s hardly new.
[2010/07/13 15:51]  Archmage Atlantis: but run if you choose to
[2010/07/13 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Seren, a lot of unhappiness comes from a feeling of not being able to keep up with change.
[2010/07/13 15:52]  Serendipity Seraph: not change. pace. faster, faster.
[2010/07/13 15:52]  blissDK Constantine: sometimes brain chemestry just sabatoshes the individual. take scizophrenia
[2010/07/13 15:52]  Qie Niangao: hmmm. maybe it’s just that the population is getting older, on average, because of medical advances. Assuming younger people are happier… which is probably wrong.
[2010/07/13 15:52]  Serendipity Seraph: and amount to keep track of. long way from savannah of africa
[2010/07/13 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I find it frustrating that we expend so many resources on more and more material things without much real benefit. And yet, grand projects are rarely pursued anymore. For example: The space program.
[2010/07/13 15:52]  blissDK Constantine: take dyslexia… please
[2010/07/13 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Qie: probably 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me has here own spaced program
[2010/07/13 15:52]  Serendipity Seraph: grand project by government alsways end up sucking.
[2010/07/13 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, studies have shown that *older* people tend to be happier.
[2010/07/13 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Space program is doing OK. We got probes around just about every planet..the best space telescopes ever created…Doing OK.
[2010/07/13 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Zo, but that’s because we’re mentally conditioned to believe that owing more and more things brings us happiness 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay to marketing!
[2010/07/13 15:53]  blissDK Constantine: no one but goverment can really do a Grand program
[2010/07/13 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think Older people get happier because they have ceased striving and take life day to day.
[2010/07/13 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *wiser* people get happier 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: No humans, but then space is OUR frontier not theirs.
[2010/07/13 15:53]  Qie Niangao: or the sad ones have all died off
[2010/07/13 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, and the gummint is broke. 😦
[2010/07/13 15:53]  blissDK Constantine: yes. wiser people i think do
[2010/07/13 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: I am not sure if we are more centered and all as we age or the aging brain simply generates more soothing stuff to make up for deterioration or it is a product of deterioration. 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s ONE of the possible meanings of “wisdom” — the art of happiness 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (one that I’m particularly fond of)
[2010/07/13 15:54]  Archmage Atlantis: /wise….. an oide concept
[2010/07/13 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Like a typical grandmother can take the time to appreciate the grandkids, whereas the parents don’t because they are trying to ‘get somewhere’.
[2010/07/13 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I mean, who cares if you’re wise, if you’re not happy?)
[2010/07/13 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe it’s something about having less hormones messing you up. :/
[2010/07/13 15:54]  blissDK Constantine: the product of dementia
[2010/07/13 15:54]  Luisa Bourgoin: fullfilling material needs introduced by ads, I don’t call that road to happiness exactly
[2010/07/13 15:55]  Serendipity Seraph: granny can do this iff she is not scrambling for a way to pay the bills
[2010/07/13 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither do I, Luisa 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:55]  Archmage Atlantis: All sing now
[2010/07/13 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or being scared of death, Seren — but you’re quite right.
[2010/07/13 15:55]  Luisa Bourgoin: that kid that cried about an broken iThingy
[2010/07/13 15:55]  blissDK Constantine: a lot of grannys are scrambling to pay bills.. fixed incomes
[2010/07/13 15:55]  blissDK Constantine: i see it all the time at my work
[2010/07/13 15:55]  Serendipity Seraph: banked hormonal fires do keep one from many youthful *clears throat* indiscretions
[2010/07/13 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: Happyness is like a machine that runs without noise.
[2010/07/13 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: But if it is not, and most people agree it is not…how come advertising is so huge and the aquisition of material things is similarly huge? What gives?
[2010/07/13 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I fail to grasp that, Khannea 😛
[2010/07/13 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: A noisy machine is a sign it is winding down and will eventually breal.
[2010/07/13 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have noticed that when old people come to look at my garden, they take time to look more than young people, who just rush through and are done.
[2010/07/13 15:56]  blissDK Constantine: the corperations need us to want
[2010/07/13 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah…. hehe ok
[2010/07/13 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: It can still function *juuust fine* with noise
[2010/07/13 15:56]  Serendipity Seraph: advertising is the art of pushing human buttons to get them to buy stuff
[2010/07/13 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh I love that, Seren!
[2010/07/13 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So true!
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: not all ads, some are simply information that X is available, but the manipulative kind
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: It is. Advertising is the art of persuasion.
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I totally agree 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: You keep focussing on media, and contemporary consumerism, and context, and news and media, and these are all SO inconsequential to people being happy.
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It lost all of its original meaning, e.g. saying “this thing exists” 🙂
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: I agree, K
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: What ocunts for me happy is by and large – how many warm daylight hours do I get.
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: But is it consequenstial to UNHAPPINESS?
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: it is sort of blaming a bunch of externals too
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that is pure wisdom, Khannea 🙂 As if people 2000 years ago weren’t unhappy!
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes, in winter I am less happy.
[2010/07/13 15:57]  Luisa Bourgoin: so you need to identify your own needs. your goal, where to head for
[2010/07/13 15:58]  blissDK Constantine: advertisments want you to think you will be unhappy with out their product
[2010/07/13 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Being present in the moment seems to be the key to happiness. Not wanting to be elsewhere or worried about what is to come.
[2010/07/13 15:58]  blissDK Constantine: i was happy when i skiied
[2010/07/13 15:58]  Luisa Bourgoin: Khannea, yes light does worl miracles on us
[2010/07/13 15:58]  Serendipity Seraph: yep. unhappiness and suffering have been part of human condition forever
[2010/07/13 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: planning ahead, yes, Luisa — but being content with what you have at all steps — and avoiding anxxiety and frustration if you’ll never fulfil your plans.
[2010/07/13 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Skiing is the total example of being present in the moment, bliss!
[2010/07/13 15:58]  Archmage Atlantis: Define old, 58 hman years here,,,,,,,,some see me a 19,000 year/////max nix
[2010/07/13 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: I am just deconstructing the myth that because of MTV or plastic wrappers we should be any less happy??? My idea is that happyness may be just physiology, or big patterns, or predation of fellow human beings… or *gasp at serendipity* endemic societal discrepancies…
[2010/07/13 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I actually prefer “insatisfaction” to “unhappiness” — not all people are unhappy, but those will also often not be satisfied either
[2010/07/13 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: I am not big on being content with conditions that aren’t good enough
[2010/07/13 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: My goal is a Nintendo 3DS. Like a DS but in 3D. Like Avatar (but not as pretty) And it works without needing any special glasses!! Wooot! (yeah, materialism has a hold on me).
[2010/07/13 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: So is surfing or dancing.
[2010/07/13 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: not stressing over it I see
[2010/07/13 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Because DAMN we have become a pretty disparate society the last decades.
[2010/07/13 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie
[2010/07/13 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly, Seren!
[2010/07/13 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Second Life is a real ‘in the moment’ experience, that is why it is so engaging I think.
[2010/07/13 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea, on the other hand, we have globalisation 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There you go, Art 🙂 I totally agree,
[2010/07/13 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: The last thing I bought was. . . . a Luger
[2010/07/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that’s also why we despair when SL breaks down hehe
[2010/07/13 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: We hate Second Life when we have to wait due to techical difficulties and it takes us away from the moment.
[2010/07/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re becoming a dangerous girl, Zo 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: jinx Gwyn
[2010/07/13 16:00]  Serendipity Seraph: not really, not much more disparate than ever. The big middle class was a very recent phenomenon historically.
[2010/07/13 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes and the intertubes and internet and fornicating wiuth people on a fucking other continent makes me bloody happy since 2005. Last FIVE years have beem exceedingly happy.
[2010/07/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Art — aye, exactly!
[2010/07/13 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: A bit less in winters, OK
[2010/07/13 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: What makes SL compelling is what makes videogames compelling…Not so much what it offers TODAY but what it could become.
[2010/07/13 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: But you should have seen me in 2000
[2010/07/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😦
[2010/07/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Pip! 🙂 nice to see you here 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: ..But that is next week’s topic so…
[2010/07/13 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, you know him?
[2010/07/13 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: *Waves at Pip*
[2010/07/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: guys, meet Pip — one of my good old friends 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:01]  Pip Torok: hi … just stumbled here serendipity-wise
[2010/07/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s definitely the best way 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me winks @ Seren
[2010/07/13 16:02]  Luisa Bourgoin: hi Pip – welcome at avatars anonymous
[2010/07/13 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: Pip *looks closer* …… Phil??????
[2010/07/13 16:02]  Pip Torok: hi everyone … pleased to meet you all …
[2010/07/13 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: Your aura… is familiar Pip
[2010/07/13 16:02]  Pip Torok: no pip short for pip
[2010/07/13 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: I am happiest in SL when I am experienceing something directly…. like a particle fest while dancing and listening to great music and chatting with my friends all at the same time. Those moments are the ones I treasire.
[2010/07/13 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: well we are discussing being better off materially but less satisfied.
[2010/07/13 16:02]  Pip Torok: look within Khannea
[2010/07/13 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: treasure
[2010/07/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Live the moment, carpe diem — that’s the way to go 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:03]  Pip Torok: youre talking of the deep questions i notice
[2010/07/13 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and don’t cling to memories — they’re just the past, which doesn’t exist any more.
[2010/07/13 16:03]  blissDK Constantine: i get noticed more in sl than in rl. i think attention , human interaction, makes me happy
[2010/07/13 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: hypothetically less satisfied anyway..
[2010/07/13 16:03]  Archmage Atlantis: K does, do you not see?
[2010/07/13 16:03]  Pip Torok: the words of Ruby Tuesday, in fact
[2010/07/13 16:03]  blissDK Constantine: that doesnt cost any $$
[2010/07/13 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie, I think it comes down to the anxiety of too many choices. We have too much to choose from and therefore are never satisfied with any decisions because we always second guess them.
[2010/07/13 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: You mentioned obesity. . . How about that? Maybe the modern diet of fat, salt and sugar just makes people feel bad.
[2010/07/13 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: sometimes I think there is a built in dissatisfaction or alienation the more you see of what is possible but is not yet your/our reality
[2010/07/13 16:03]  Pip Torok: dont necessarily agree Artcrash
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Pip yes…. the topic today is why people are always looking to the past for a golden age
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘goodbye ruby tuesday/ who can hang a name on you/ when you change with every new day/ still I’m gonna miss you…
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah an epidemic of whiiiining – blue M&Ms
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Pip Torok: making one choice necessarily implies rejecting pthers
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me notices that Art exhibits a lot of wisdom today!
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: I look to the future. the past sucks!
[2010/07/13 16:04]  blissDK Constantine: i see that art in my children. give them one book and they get excited, given them 3 and it dilutes the excitment
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: I had to choose between a stainless steel or a black Luger! It was hard! ;.;
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The past doesn’t exist any more, Seren — so how can it suck? 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: America is unhapy – sure it has to carry around 40- ponds of lard everywhere.
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Archmage Atlantis: deciding where to go dance
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Pip Torok: what is the past serendipidy?
[2010/07/13 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: it was no golden age
[2010/07/13 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: When you are out with friends and you go to a restaurant that someone has already chosen, it is ALWAYS a better time than group deciding a restaurant, because you get focused on, should we have gone to a better one? We have all had this experience.
[2010/07/13 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what is the future? 🙂 It doesn’t exist either 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:05]  blissDK Constantine: i am happier now with my lard
[2010/07/13 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Check your relativity Gwyn: Past present and future exist at once and forever in the 4D block of spacetime.
[2010/07/13 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: more important it is guaranteed around over $100 trillion in debt
[2010/07/13 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe — or none exist 😉
[2010/07/13 16:05]  blissDK Constantine: lard now , no lard then
[2010/07/13 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: So says Barbour..
[2010/07/13 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: doesn’t do a thing for us, extie
[2010/07/13 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He just walks in the shoes of great masters, Extie 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: we are beads bound onto the string of time
[2010/07/13 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm, “bound”….
[2010/07/13 16:06]  blissDK Constantine: times arrow…..
[2010/07/13 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: only in the entropic sense of the word 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:06]  Serendipity Seraph: unhappy people do tend to eat more
[2010/07/13 16:06]  Pip Torok: The people who live in a Golden Age usually go around
complaining how yellow everything looks.
— Randall Jarrell (A Sad Heart at the Supermarket, 1965)
[2010/07/13 16:06]  blissDK Constantine: time’s arrow that is
[2010/07/13 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: This chat is so chaotic, it is causeing anxiety! ha ha
[2010/07/13 16:06]  Luisa Bourgoin: btw food can make happy
[2010/07/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe nice quote Pip 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:07]  blissDK Constantine: food only makes me happy when i am hungry
[2010/07/13 16:07]  Pip Torok: he said lots of good things!
[2010/07/13 16:07]  blissDK Constantine: when i am not hungry it gives me anxiety
[2010/07/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa: yes, but not permanently — you can’t eat *all the time* even if you try 8and a lot do!)
[2010/07/13 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Sex only makes me happy….. wait, that doesn’t work…
[2010/07/13 16:07]  Serendipity Seraph: I just spin my camera round and round when the chaos gets too high. for some strange reason it soothes me. 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:07]  Luisa Bourgoin: not necessarily eating food … watching is sufficient. I like watching people make food .. inside restaurants
[2010/07/13 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: ..(Ever hear about the AI that tried to make sense of ‘time flies like an arrow’…’um..there are these critters called time flies that like arrows? Err..I should time a fly like I would time an arrow?…ooo..Flies fly like an arrow flies?…and so on…)
[2010/07/13 16:07]  blissDK Constantine: 🙂 art….
[2010/07/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Art — the same applies, you can’t have sex 24/7, even if you try 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Being well-fed makes you lethargic. Although, that can be countered to some extent with caffeine.
[2010/07/13 16:08]  blissDK Constantine: sex can get boaring
[2010/07/13 16:08]  Pip Torok: you mean it doesnt make you sad Artcrash .. or its only sex that CAN make you happy?
[2010/07/13 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that was part of my AI class, yes, Extie 🙂 )
[2010/07/13 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: if you are lethargic you probably over-fed
[2010/07/13 16:08]  blissDK Constantine: What did i just say!!!?!?!?
[2010/07/13 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2010/07/13 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: Sorry I need my score 3 times a day or I get really upset
[2010/07/13 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me notices what bliss has said, and it makes much more sense with the typo!
[2010/07/13 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Guess almost anything can get boring.
[2010/07/13 16:08]  blissDK Constantine: lol
[2010/07/13 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See Khannea? Insatisfaction
[2010/07/13 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Should we define ‘satisfaction’?
[2010/07/13 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Contentment.
[2010/07/13 16:09]  blissDK Constantine: mental stimulation and satisfing the mind leads to far more contentment
[2010/07/13 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Satisfaction: ‘what Mick Jagger can’t get’.
[2010/07/13 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: to desire and not have the desire fulfilled is the root of suffering claim the buddhists but what fun would it be to eliminate all desire?
[2010/07/13 16:09]  Pip Torok: rather more than contentment I hope gwyn
[2010/07/13 16:09]  Luisa Bourgoin: prospection of things to come. Great potential
[2010/07/13 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, in my circle of friends, Mick Jagger is often quoted — there is some surprising insights to be learned from that song!
[2010/07/13 16:10]  Pip Torok: thats how I’d feel about it Luisa
[2010/07/13 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: /me sees Janice Soprano playing on a guitar with a moroso expression.
[2010/07/13 16:10]  blissDK Constantine: the devil you say
[2010/07/13 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No point at all for the Buddhists, Seren 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:10]  Serendipity Seraph: oh crap, now that soung will play in my head for the next hour!
[2010/07/13 16:10]  Pip Torok: hehe
[2010/07/13 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (also, just a few schools actually say what you quoted)
[2010/07/13 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Would a Lamborghini and a yacht make me happy?
[2010/07/13 16:11]  blissDK Constantine: ugh.
[2010/07/13 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, for a while.
[2010/07/13 16:11]  blissDK Constantine: those things to me show lack of size and contentment
[2010/07/13 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, when you get the bill 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Or a love of sailing..
[2010/07/13 16:11]  Pip Torok: zobeid … if they make you happy … then theres no problem … make them in SL !!
[2010/07/13 16:11]  Luisa Bourgoin: Jagger’s activities missed a goal. There is no expected outcome, no future to come – so no satisfaction experienced
[2010/07/13 16:11]  Serendipity Seraph: well, as tony robbins would say, “probably not but you could arrive at your problems in Style!”
[2010/07/13 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Satisfaction: Basic needs met, no unmet desires. no anxieties.
[2010/07/13 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is actually more profound, Luisa 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, Art!
[2010/07/13 16:12]  blissDK Constantine: then you have to worry about accidents and insurence and etc….
[2010/07/13 16:12]  Serendipity Seraph: artcrash, I would be bored with just that
[2010/07/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then your basic need wouldn’t be met, Seren.
[2010/07/13 16:12]  Pip Torok: Artcrash … then you develop other needs 9see maslows pyramid)
[2010/07/13 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: bored is having an anxiety of the moment
[2010/07/13 16:12]  blissDK Constantine: a little chaos adds spice
[2010/07/13 16:12]  Serendipity Seraph: life is an ongoing process or we stagnate
[2010/07/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah maslow…. that was the reference I was looking for…. thanks, Pip!!!
[2010/07/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow Art
[2010/07/13 16:12]  Pip Torok: bored is NOT having an anxiety imho …
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what did you drink today??
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: how many retired with plenty and were utterly unhappy within a year
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: I grew up in a shack in the middle of the wilderness. I didn’t even know how far away or in what direction our neighbors were. Our modern conveniences consisted of a TV set that got four fuzzy channels when reception was good.
[2010/07/13 16:13]  blissDK Constantine: excitment…. leads to epinepherine
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: not from any great desires but from no longer moving or having any goals
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Pip Torok: too many seren
[2010/07/13 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: bored is not wanting to be in the present moment
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are few happy rich people 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t remember anybody being miserable though.
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, there are few happy poor people either.
[2010/07/13 16:13]  blissDK Constantine: i know some miserable rich people
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art++
[2010/07/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know a LOT, bliss. Really a lot.
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: it is not a matter of rich. it is a matter of not having anything that is important or you want to do and that you can do
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Joy Larkspur: for me, stagnation is something i try to avoid
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, I haven’t ever met a happy rich person, although I’m still looking for one
[2010/07/13 16:14]  blissDK Constantine: slaves to their possesions they are
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Luisa Bourgoin: bliss, can we relief them from their misery?
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Pip Torok: Gwyn do you think they had the wrong expectations about the object of money?
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren, it’s actually a matter of giving to much importance to things 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Serendipity Seraph: there are rich happy people and there are poor happy people. it is not relevant
[2010/07/13 16:14]  blissDK Constantine: only they can
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Pip. I’m *sure* of it 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Seriously, Let me give this book reference again: because it deals directly with EXACTLY what our topic is today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Qie Niangao: maybe only unhappy people become rich
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Pip Torok: ah!
[2010/07/13 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Happyness peaks, predictably, at being just happier than the lowest half. Too little means envy, too much is constantly looking over your shoulder, *shame* and a meanspirited attitude against these damn freeloaders and good-for-nothings.
[2010/07/13 16:15]  blissDK Constantine: maybe it drives them
[2010/07/13 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: If you suddenly come into lots of money, from winnng the lottery, say, you are not really part of your old friend’s social circle anymore. THEY have to go out and work and worry about the bills, and you do not. But you are not really in with the rich either- not those who EARNED or INHERITED their fortune. So you are in a no-man’s land socially speaking.
[2010/07/13 16:15]  blissDK Constantine: but i was poor and very unhappy in some ways
[2010/07/13 16:15]  Serendipity Seraph: is happiness over-rated? or do we have to banal a notion of what happiness is?
[2010/07/13 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: richer… just RICHER than the lowest half
[2010/07/13 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They just traded off one type of happiness — being unhappy because they coulçdn’t pay the bills or buy Lamborghinis or yachts — by other types of unhappiness: no privacy, the fear of losing money, prestige, fame…
[2010/07/13 16:15]  Pip Torok: one thing i know about happiness … happy ppl are too occupied to realise theyre happy
[2010/07/13 16:15]  blissDK Constantine: i am not rich now and i am content
[2010/07/13 16:15]  Jayda Ferrentino: happiness isn’t a permanent state anyway
[2010/07/13 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: YES, Pip!
[2010/07/13 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha Jayda
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Too many poor and envious in society >> societal envy inhappyness
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: Actually, what makes you think having a scad of money means you don’t work any more?
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: NOW we’re getting at something 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Jayda Ferrentino: unless your gay, then it’s alright
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Joy Larkspur: i would think having a purpose would create happiness
[2010/07/13 16:16]  blissDK Constantine: 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: /me would love to have a scad of money to test the notion
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Too many rich in society >> embittered ‘they wanna take it away from me’ feeling of haunted fear
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Pip Torok: the real joy is the freedom to work or rest IF you want, seren
[2010/07/13 16:16]  blissDK Constantine: purpose gives one something to do and not waste time with anxiety
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly, Khannea. Notice that all of us in this meeting are extremely rich people, compared with 99% of the world’s population.
[2010/07/13 16:16]  Joy Larkspur: having control over my own hours, instead of working for someone else
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: ..What about this idea that each person has a baseline level of happiness and while we may have highs and lows, inevitably we slip back to this baseline and stay there?
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: yes, bliss
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Jayda Ferrentino: i agree extropia
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: http://www.playsuperme.com/
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Each person has the *desire* to be happy.
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Pip Torok: quite possibly extra
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sadly, few know what makes them happy 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Joy Larkspur: deep down everyone wants it
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Jayda Ferrentino: hmm
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: everyone indeed — even animals
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Jayda Ferrentino: love love love
[2010/07/13 16:17]  blissDK Constantine: estro… i think that could be proven with levels of neurotransmitters. everyone has a baseline
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Jayda Ferrentino: love makes people haaapppy
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t think that is so. that would say it is a biochemical setpoint, right?
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: I did a test Gwyn. I score at 85%
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Jayda Ferrentino: weed does too
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: there can be a desire for unhappiness?
[2010/07/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s called “expectations”
[2010/07/13 16:18]  Pip Torok: but then do they stop and try to imagine how theyd feel if they WERE happy?
[2010/07/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa — only from the external perspective
[2010/07/13 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is another great book that was written dealing peripherally with this topic. It is about how the middle class suffers because of fear of losing their class standing. It is called ‘Fear of Falling’ by Barbara Ehrenreich
[2010/07/13 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Ehrenreich
[2010/07/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. you might THINK that they’re craving unhappiness, but for them, it’s happiness too
[2010/07/13 16:18]  blissDK Constantine: misseralbe artists that love the pain that inspires their creativity
[2010/07/13 16:18]  Jayda Ferrentino: i think people would be happier if they knew they could survive with very lil material things
[2010/07/13 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: though my natural setting seems rather inclined to optimism and even being blissed out. not necessarily a blessing as it tends against motivation
[2010/07/13 16:18]  Jayda Ferrentino: so if worse came to worse then they’d be ok
[2010/07/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes, Art — it’s not only about material things. Fame, glory, reputation, etc. are also a source of anxiety
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Material things are just a small aprt
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *part even
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Luisa Bourgoin: weed, sex, cocaine, alcohol, speed, cars, all proven mediators of happiness. should we take any looks onto side effects … doh!
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Pip Torok: according to George orwell your quite happy once you have fallen …
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Jayda Ferrentino: but to achieve that people need a support network probably
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Jayda Ferrentino: weed is great though
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa: only if they can be made *permanent* 😉
[2010/07/13 16:19]  blissDK Constantine: ….. is fallen
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: George Orwell had a point lol
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Pip Torok: no such thing Gwyn!!
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Luisa Bourgoin: persuit of happiness
[2010/07/13 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly, Pip:)
[2010/07/13 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: Might human success, species wise, be the result of an inflated neurology that has polarized us to pathological (and no fun) ambition?
[2010/07/13 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: The Haunted Ape
[2010/07/13 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: What is the doper phrase? “Dope will get you through times with no money better than money will get you through times with no dope.” ha ha ha
[2010/07/13 16:20]  Serendipity Seraph: could be, K. good thing that
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Pip Torok: but how wd you define “human success?
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Jayda Ferrentino: good saying
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: ..If our minds and hands evolved for the invention and creation of technology, which is materialistic, maybe it is the materialistic that we derive most staisfaction from?
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Serendipity Seraph: progress towards more opportunity and creation
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Jayda Ferrentino: if we’re conditioned that way
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: Ehhhh bonobo’s extropia??
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Joy Larkspur: if ppl knew they could make a difference, would that create happiness?
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, you can see things this way: the issue is that all these sources of happiness are always *temporary*. And that is one of the biggest reasons why they’re a) not fulfilling (we know they will go away); b) a source of anxiety (we don’t know when they’ll go away and we’re scared of when that happens); and c) frustration (at some point, we’ll lose them, and we’ll have to face that — and don’t want to)
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Serendipity Seraph: simply enjoying life is success too
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Pip Torok: does that mean more choices for all?
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Bonobos?
[2010/07/13 16:21]  Joy Larkspur: ppl have more choice than they realize
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dwarf chimps
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, those randy little chimps…
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Pip Torok: agree! joy …
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Joy Larkspur: i:-)
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Extie 😀
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Luisa Bourgoin: to many choices. we allready identified that as source of trouble
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: yes, for all on average. there will always be outliers.
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, because we don’tknow which ones are the right ones, Luisa .)
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes.. Bonobo’s. Chimpansees. They are ecstaticly happy… By and large because their neurology trick is by and large social *gargle* interactivity.
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Joy Larkspur: it depends on their needs and wants
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t agree too many choices are trouble
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Joy Larkspur: what they see as necessary or not
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t confuse ecstasy with happiness!
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Jayda Ferrentino: so like in previous generations the less choice there was people were still “happy”
[2010/07/13 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Bono’s are plain totally happy. Always. As long as they are socializing.
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Joy Larkspur: with more choices, more avenues to pursue in finding answers
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Jayda Ferrentino: i don’t think they were
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: They are not as gentle as you have heard. The females rule the clan, and any male gets out of line he is held down and the alpha female bites his nuts. Hard.
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jayda, not really — people were always unhappy, at all times 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Jayda Ferrentino: but choice doesn’t have a aprt in that then
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Pip Torok: oooo
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: True Happyness comes with Castration, trophy
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah!
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Jayda Ferrentino: lolll
[2010/07/13 16:23]  Luisa Bourgoin: what you do know! astonishing 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: choice is good, but we mae our own choices. The trouble is, we’re always pining for others to make the choices for us… 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: No wonder mickey mouse was always smiling. And talking in that squeaky voice.
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie!!!!
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: eh eh eh
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahahahahahah
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Pip Torok: happiness cd be recognising yr face in a younger Bonobo!
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: or blaming others for the choices we did make
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Joy Larkspur: yes, but allowing others to choose for us, we lose our freedoms
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Joy Larkspur: we do not know we are losing them
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: Minnie was a biter eh? Sharp chisely teeth *SNAP* here with that cheese.
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but ultimately that’s what we want, Joy. We want external things to make us happy
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Joy Larkspur: not me tho
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Joy Larkspur: not really
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wealth, relationships…. we see them as sources of happiness
[2010/07/13 16:24]  Luisa Bourgoin: ooh yes! others make choices for us! ” Look at me mama, I am on the highway to hell “
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Joy Larkspur: i want a different life, but one of healthy life
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I use “we” as in “the vast majority of the 7 billion humans around us”
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Joy Larkspur: clean water, food and air
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Pip Torok: yes … but sometimes we can manufacture joy within ourselves
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Joy Larkspur: basic – but hard to find
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Serendipity Seraph: so happiness is a back to the womb thing or something?
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: “I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and misfortune happen to them all.”
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe oh yes, Zo
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Joy Larkspur: true – it is within us to find that happiness
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Pip Torok: 2give ourselves a pat on the back”
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Joy Larkspur: peace within
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: who said that, Zoe?
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Joy. Easier said than done, though 😉
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Ecclesiastes 9:11
[2010/07/13 16:25]  Joy Larkspur: true – it is work. but it takes steps and searching
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Pip Torok: which is … ZO?
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Jayda Ferrentino: which makes the feeling of it more enjoable when it comes
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Joy Larkspur: many that i know so search…they simply exist, and do what they were taught
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Joy Larkspur: that i know don’t search – typo
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: The decent thing to do is affirm that humans are geneticly diverse and your preconceptions of what makes you happy might be dantes inferno for most other people. Have the decency to let other people make their own choices and be bloody open to compromize.
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: Or your balls go off.
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me agrees with Joy again.
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Serendipity Seraph: yes. self direction is hard. let’s turn on the tube.
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Pip Torok: haha
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Joy Larkspur: 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:26]  Jayda Ferrentino: ignorance is bliss haha
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: alas, Seren — so sadly true!
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Joy Larkspur: ppl are affraid of choice, but ones they learn – it gets easier to explore and question
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Pip Torok: then its folly to be wise!
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Pip Torok: its better to be ignorant, like me …..
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Ignorance is strength! Freedom is slavery! War is peace!
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naah actually I disagree that ignorance is bliss 😉
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Jayda Ferrentino: i was kidding
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Joy Larkspur: uhhhhh
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Joy Larkspur: haha
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie is crazy!
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, that wasn’t so good 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Jayda Ferrentino: 😛
[2010/07/13 16:27]  Luisa Bourgoin: Extie is quoting. whom?
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: /me offers Gwyn the Necronomicon?
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: I am.
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: was recently reminded of some reading I did in college, way back in the last century, by a British historian arguing that the critical technology, for the early phase of the industrial revolution, was gin.
The transformation from rural to urban life was so sudden, and so wrenching, that the only thing society could do to manage was to drink itself into a stupor for a generation. The stories from that era are amazing– there were gin pushcarts working their way through the streets of London.
And it wasn’t until society woke up from that collective bender that we actually started to get the institutional structures that we associate with the industrial revolution today. Things like public libraries and museums, increasingly broad education for children, elected leaders–a lot of things we like–didn’t happen until having all of those people together stopped seeming like a crisis and started seeming like an asset.
It wasn’t until people started thinking of this as a vast civic surplus, one they could design
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: for rather than just dissipate, that we started to get what we think of now as an industrial society.
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: gimme! lol
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Pip Torok: there was a radio show in the UK calld “ignorance is Bliss
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Joy Larkspur: ppl have lost their sense of power to govern themselves
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Jayda Ferrentino: so we should all get drunk now
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: In case you did not know…that comes from 1984. The party slogans of Big Brother.
[2010/07/13 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me gives up on her web search and comes back to the discussion…
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Pip Torok: 110% agree Joy
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Joy Larkspur: 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me agrees 110% too, but I think they never had that power anyway
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Orwell FTW, Extie 😉
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Pip Torok: but did they have that illusion, gwyn?
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Joy Larkspur: well, less than ppl realize. but now, they are easily manipulated
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Serendipity Seraph: ever worked a farm, K? it was not all that wrenching moving away from it
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Joy Larkspur: and conditioned
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m quite sure they did, Pip.
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: OO look one minute to go..Any final thoughts? A sumary perhaps?
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Qie Niangao: maybe happiness for a social creature depends on making others happy… and maybe that’s difficult without well-defined, local communities.
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Joy Larkspur: wow – awesome group
[2010/07/13 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: Next weeK: What is the difference between agreeing 110 percent and 111 percent. Tune in!
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure… cling to temporary things, and you’ll always be unhappy 😉
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Jayda Ferrentino: i hope you’re all happy 😀
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Joy Larkspur: haha
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Art!
[2010/07/13 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: I am working a farm as we speak (waters the special plants)
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Pip Torok: how about “happines is in your hands … look for it there”
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Joy Larkspur: good for u!
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Jayda Ferrentino: loll i’d like a special plant
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Serendipity Seraph: ppl are losing their freedom and self-reliance a lot. I think that is a big source of unhappiness
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Joy Larkspur: clean food, grow your own
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Qie, you’re hitting gold there.
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: I think there’s a widespread feeling that we’re on the wrong track with this consumerist society, but I don’t see much concensus on how to change it.
[2010/07/13 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m going with the eastern philosphers on this one. Happiness is being present in the moment.
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Pip Torok: totally agree zob
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Jayda Ferrentino: ya Art
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Seren, because they believe that freedom is something external to them.
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Joy Larkspur: yes, but certain basics are being compromised that effects our ability to think
[2010/07/13 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: It aint cannabis – my special plant is Khat *yumm*
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Joy Larkspur: toxins, foods, water
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Jayda Ferrentino: oh
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo — no consensus at all. people always resist change!
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Pip Torok: easy for me ArtC … there IS only this moment
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Serendipity Seraph: we are on the wrong track with the hash that has been made of our economy
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Good thoughts all..well, my time is up!
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Joy Larkspur: i thrive o change
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Joy Larkspur: on – tpo
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear, Pip 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: poem or I bite your balls off
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s teh way to go, Joy! Really, I mean it.
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Joy Larkspur: thank you 🙂
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Joy Larkspur: i really enjoyed this. great thinkers you all
[2010/07/13 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: SACRED CYBERSPACE: Materialism and sciences like astrophpysics and genetics have systematically eliminated spaces where the spiritual can reside. But people still have a need for the spiritual and other-worldly. To what extent can cyberspaces cater for this need?

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