THINKERS JUNE 29 2010: PRIORITIES.

2010/06/29 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: PRIORITIES: We face many serious challenges in the decades to come. Peak oil, climate change, loss of biodiversity to name a few. Of all the impending challenges, which should we consider most in need of addressing?
[2010/06/29 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Ah, there we go. Thanks Gwyn!
[2010/06/29 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I usually answer that question with Lomborg’s answer: let’s focus on making people feel better. Improve their health, give them food, a decent place to live… 😉
[2010/06/29 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Save lives first… then the planet next
[2010/06/29 15:37]  Lem Skall: none of those are “impending”
[2010/06/29 15:37]  Lem Skall: make contact with aliens, that’s the priority for me
[2010/06/29 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, one thing I had to criticize about Cool It was Lomborg’s cheerful assumption that economic growth will continue rolling right along as it has for the last however many decades.
[2010/06/29 15:38]  Serendipity Seraph: the number one immediate challenge and danger is not on the list – economic meltdown
[2010/06/29 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Zob — that was before the financial crisis 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: But is it not continual economic growth that causes all the other problems?
[2010/06/29 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Seren & Zo
[2010/06/29 15:38]  Serendipity Seraph: no it was not
[2010/06/29 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Not sure if economic meltdown really qualifies. . . We’ve had those before. But it could compound our other problems.
[2010/06/29 15:39]  Serendipity Seraph: not in the least was economic growth the problem. not real growth. bullshit make-believe growth of paper wealth perhaps
[2010/06/29 15:39]  Lem Skall: I think there will be big social changes before anything else, we haven’t had a good revolution in a long time and we are seriously due one
[2010/06/29 15:39]  Serendipity Seraph: but what kind, Lem?
[2010/06/29 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Yay for the Tea Party!
[2010/06/29 15:39]  Lem Skall: if I just knew I would start it already
[2010/06/29 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: They had one of them in Sl, years back before I got here.
[2010/06/29 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Lem
[2010/06/29 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: well, I have little faith of late in people’s ethical/political savvy so I would worry about revolution
[2010/06/29 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, revolution only means that you shuffle the cards a bit, but it’s always the same ones who hold the aces 😉
[2010/06/29 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and good point, Seren :=) that too!
[2010/06/29 15:40]  Serendipity Seraph: not really, gwyn
[2010/06/29 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well…
[2010/06/29 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: holding the aces I mean I will pocket the point. 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s just my experience 😉
[2010/06/29 15:41]  Lem Skall: I think it will be related to transparency and accountability brought about by the internet and democracy will infiltrate into many areas, like corporate management
[2010/06/29 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: I am very worried about the US melting down along with much of the western world
[2010/06/29 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Personally, my priority would be to secure a post-fossil fuel global energy system. Because, the thought of not being able to power SL is too unbearable. Imagine a world without Gwyn, Zoe, Ari, Lem, Seren and me!! What IS the point?
[2010/06/29 15:41]  Serendipity Seraph: that could have some very very bad repurcussions quickly to say the least
[2010/06/29 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: wishful thinking 😉
[2010/06/29 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s a big split now over economic policy, between factions holding diametrically opposite views of what the problem really is and what needs to be done about it.
[2010/06/29 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s NICE wishful thinking.
[2010/06/29 15:42]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, I think it is a natural evolution
[2010/06/29 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or natural Revolution 😉
[2010/06/29 15:42]  Lem Skall: and what is natural is eventually inevitable
[2010/06/29 15:42]  Serendipity Seraph: the problem is government take over and destruction of the monetary system and the economy
[2010/06/29 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I really don’t think so, Lem. I’ve been reading a *lot* about collaborative democracy using Internet-based tools as an alternative social/political model
[2010/06/29 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I would probably pick Peak Oil as the big looming crisis. But an economic depression isn’t going to make it easier to deal with.
[2010/06/29 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And it’s scary.
[2010/06/29 15:43]  Serendipity Seraph: and why it took over
[2010/06/29 15:43]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, it only needs to be perfected
[2010/06/29 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I figured Peak Oil would *cause* a depression. Going into it with one already underway is not a pleasant prospect. :/
[2010/06/29 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, with that I agree, lem!
[2010/06/29 15:43]  Serendipity Seraph: economic destruction trumps even energy
[2010/06/29 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Zo… it just means going nuclear all the way 😉 hehe
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Lem Skall: it can be collaboration in a collectivist sense or in an individualist sense
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: But nuclear needs uranium. And that is in pretty short supply.
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Both are scary, Lem 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Shorahmin Femto: yes, with traveling wave reactors
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: nuclear, especially thorium cycle, is a very good option – cheaper and non-proliferation and we have 10000 years of the stuff
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Is it? I haven’t heard about that.
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Lem Skall: ok, Gwyn, somewhere in between
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Serendipity Seraph: it does not require uranium
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Uranium mining has just been neglected for a long time.
[2010/06/29 15:44]  Shorahmin Femto: google it
[2010/06/29 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: What else do nuclear fission reactors use as fuel, then?
[2010/06/29 15:45]  Shorahmin Femto: energy will solve itself
[2010/06/29 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d certainly go for nuclear power for a few decades until we perfect renewable sources.
[2010/06/29 15:45]  Serendipity Seraph: uranium is in relatively short supply and has other problems
[2010/06/29 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: They can use a lot of different fuel cycles.
[2010/06/29 15:45]  Lem Skall: I bet uranium is available elsewhere in the universe
[2010/06/29 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: what good is that, though?
[2010/06/29 15:46]  Shorahmin Femto: uranium works fine in TWRs. and it is very efficient there
[2010/06/29 15:46]  Serendipity Seraph: I would build nukes really fast on thorium cycle and expect thin film solar everywhere within decade
[2010/06/29 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, I think that it would push people into space, Extie 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Seren — I would do that too
[2010/06/29 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Also need to develop geothermal.
[2010/06/29 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: There is a kilometer diameter diamond meteor. Make you richer than Bill Gates. But it is lightyear’s away.
[2010/06/29 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Nuclear, solar and geothermal are the big plays.
[2010/06/29 15:46]  Lem Skall: lol, haven’t they found uranium in Afghanistan?
[2010/06/29 15:47]  Lem Skall: they seem to have found every kind of minral
[2010/06/29 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: not sure about geothermal. with modern drilling we can do geothermal anywhere we like but haven’t worked the numbers for myself or seen a good enough work up to convince me.
[2010/06/29 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: yes. They should be deploying it in..oh…45 minutes?
[2010/06/29 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/06/29 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: MIT did a study on “enhanced” geothermal, I’ll see if I can find it.
[2010/06/29 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: wind at high altitude in the jet stream is cool
[2010/06/29 15:47]  Shorahmin Femto: errr hot
[2010/06/29 15:47]  Serendipity Seraph: fusion will get here eventually.
[2010/06/29 15:47]  Lem Skall: will BP explore geothermal resources?
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Here’s the press release: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/geothermal.html
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d still bet on solar. We’re already way more efficient than *plants*, and they had millions of years of natural selection….
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Lem Skall: I really trust BP for that
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Lem
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Shorahmin Femto: I don’t think energy is a sustainable crisis
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BP does solar too!
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Serendipity Seraph: but how do we build out fast enough and convert fast enough all the infrastructure to make all transportation electric?
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Shorahmin Femto: chicken little will need a new one soon
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Lem Skall: watch out, sun!
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: What? We need a crisis that we can keep going for a long time? 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:48]  Serendipity Seraph: assuming we have the juice? transport is 90+ % oil based today
[2010/06/29 15:49]  Shorahmin Femto: some folks need it to distract us from real issues
[2010/06/29 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: crises are not useful and be very careful what you wish for
[2010/06/29 15:49]  Serendipity Seraph: war on some terror is just such a crisis. lovely, isn’t it?
[2010/06/29 15:49]  Second Life: User not online – inventory has been saved.
[2010/06/29 15:49]  Shorahmin Femto: I suggest you not go into politics. which BTW is a compliment
[2010/06/29 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Most cars can go electric. Trains too. Ships can use wind or nuclear. Aircraft get biofuels.
[2010/06/29 15:50]  Lem Skall: I don’t think it would be too hard to grow the use of electricity for transportation, it’s not like it’s not used at all for that now
[2010/06/29 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren, that’s something that will only work with legislçation
[2010/06/29 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: (Extie opens this..presses that..fiddles with this…slides that…represses that…closes..opens..closes..opens that and…succeeds in passing inventory to someone! Yay the black box that is V2)
[2010/06/29 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Oil is reserved for the petrochemical industry.
[2010/06/29 15:50]  Lem Skall: genetics will be for that, won’t they?
[2010/06/29 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: they can’t convert everything overnight or build out the power grid overnight
[2010/06/29 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: that costs – a lot
[2010/06/29 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No… nothing can be done “overnight”
[2010/06/29 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: You mean, like Venter’s promise of GM bacteria that make biofuel?
[2010/06/29 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Oil isn’t going to run out “overnight” either.
[2010/06/29 15:51]  Serendipity Seraph: what will only work with legislation, gwyn?
[2010/06/29 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Zo
[2010/06/29 15:51]  Lem Skall: someday we’ll create a fuel called soylent green
[2010/06/29 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I meant accelerating the pace of moving to electric-powered cars, Seren
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can do that with legislation — heavy taxation
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Tesla went public, BTW.
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Serendipity Seraph: making alternate fuels with some of the power is a way to buy time. keep the IC engines running but not on oil based products
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Shorahmin Femto: when this is all over oceans of oil will remain in the earth and no one will want it
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: They already did, Lem. Remember that military robot that ran on biomass it picked up on a battlefield?
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’d take 10-20 years to convert, say, 90% of all cars
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Lem Skall: whaaa?
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Shorah 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: ouchy. . . power blinked here, we’re having a thunderstorm
[2010/06/29 15:52]  Serendipity Seraph: you cannot legislate progress. you can only force things that may or may not (usually) make sense at more costs
[2010/06/29 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hope you have an UPS, Zo 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: I have a *large* UPS.
[2010/06/29 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh no:( Shame you cannot harness the energy ina lightning bolt, Zo!
[2010/06/29 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, not progress, Seren…. but… we already have electric cars. People don’t want them because they’re expensive and mostly ugly and limited… so… you can only place heavy taxes on cars with internal combustion engines. Do it gradually over 10-20 years, and people will slowly change…
[2010/06/29 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The more that change, the cheaper electric cars will be
[2010/06/29 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s no question in my mind that solutions exist for Peak Oil. But. . . there are a lot of ways for us to botch it too.
[2010/06/29 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it won’t be “overnight”
[2010/06/29 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: if they are expensive then we haven’t got a viable alternative there yet.
[2010/06/29 15:54]  Shorahmin Femto: I think the real threat we face is a decline in adventure, an effort to legislate it out of existance
[2010/06/29 15:54]  Serendipity Seraph: pretending we do by legal fiat would be suicidal
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we can make them appealing — just raise taxes on the ones with internal combustion engines 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do it gradually 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Shorahmin Femto: this approach increased the cost of the space program 10 fold
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: It could be quicker than most people would imagine, Gwyn, once we hit a “tipping point” where it’s obvious to everyone where we’ve got to go.
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: /me jumps!
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Serendipity Seraph: heavy taxes in the middle of economic crisis is suicidal
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: That was close!
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Lem Skall: oh, have we mentioned yet fresh water as a potential crisis?
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Zo, but I also agree that it takes time
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, not yet! We need more rain
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: No Lem. And indeed it is.
[2010/06/29 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: The computer revolution could be a good model for large-scale change. . .
[2010/06/29 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: More global warming = more humidity on the atmosphere = more rain = more fresh water
[2010/06/29 15:56]  Serendipity Seraph: real economy is about what really is better not what costs more because government jiggered the prices!! until we learn that we are doomed
[2010/06/29 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ahhh yes Seren
[2010/06/29 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the problem is that this *assumes* an unlimited market with unlimited supply 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the problem with economics 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: The bulk of it has taken place in a 15-year period. There was some before, and some after (and continuing), but the “revolution” as such was about 15 years by my estimate.
[2010/06/29 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s based on ideal models
[2010/06/29 15:56]  Serendipity Seraph: it assumes a free market and nothing more. it assumes nothing about supply
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Zo
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the “free market” assumes that people make perfect decisions
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which they don’t 😉
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: the real revolution started in the 70s. I was there.
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Shorahmin Femto: no it doesn’t
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Electric cars could go the same way, but the vehicular equivalent of the Apple II still hasn’t shown up.
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: no it does not, gwyn
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Shorahmin Femto: look up Nash equilibriums
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Serendipity Seraph: it assumes you can’t fake reality
[2010/06/29 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Does anyone here think economists have learned anything since the credit crunch, or are they still using the old models?
[2010/06/29 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: now that’s interesting… what does that mean, “fake reality”?
[2010/06/29 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s a huge split, Extie. . . as I alluded before.
[2010/06/29 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, they’re still old Keynesians 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: welcome Arch! Glad you could make it. Not many could, SL is awful today!
[2010/06/29 15:58]  Serendipity Seraph: the credit crunch was the logical outcome of basically Keynesian (with variants) models that have predominated
[2010/06/29 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Some are crying about inflatiion, some are crying about deflation.
[2010/06/29 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Some are crying about debt, some are crying for more “stimulus” spending.
[2010/06/29 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: saying you can legislate change or economic aspects to be what you want is faking reality
[2010/06/29 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh
[2010/06/29 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s worth some thinking.
[2010/06/29 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: The irony of course is that even Keynes would be appalled by what’s grown out of his theories.
[2010/06/29 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So you can’t legislçate change, mmmh? 🙂
[2010/06/29 15:59]  Archmage Atlantis: tks Extie…..was just able to log on
[2010/06/29 15:59]  Shorahmin Femto: nor can you elect it
[2010/06/29 15:59]  Serendipity Seraph: nope. not change that amounts to much.
[2010/06/29 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it means that either you go through revolution or you just happily ignore the consequences?
[2010/06/29 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Never quite understood why house prices going down is a bad thing. I mean, if they perpetually go up eventually only billionaires could afford to move.
[2010/06/29 16:00]  Serendipity Seraph: no it means that free peeople find workable solutions over time much better than governments do
[2010/06/29 16:00]  Shorahmin Femto: or everyone would be billionaires
[2010/06/29 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you give people too much credit, Seren
[2010/06/29 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t even give governments much credit!
[2010/06/29 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: People are… selfish
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Serendipity Seraph: governments are just bunches of power mad people, gwyn. 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: It depends on whether you are paying interest or other people are paying you interest. I like being paid interest. Most people seem to prefer going into more debt, though. . .
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Shorahmin Femto: errr self interested
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Self-perpetuating bunches of power mad people.
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: And money..I owe money to the bank; the bank owes money to the country; the country owes money to the world…but to what does the world owe money? Somewhere along the line money seems to become this nonexistent fantasy.
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Serendipity Seraph: selfish is a very good thing if you are relatively rational as to what is really in your interest
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is, again, assuming a lot
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most people are not rational at all.
[2010/06/29 16:01]  Serendipity Seraph: as most people’s main “asset” is actually a “debt” – their home, prices are a big deal
[2010/06/29 16:02]  Archmage Atlantis: A functuioning society IS in my interest
[2010/06/29 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I don’t know what is really in my own interest either — not in *all areas* of knowledge
[2010/06/29 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I can’t expect that the vast majority knows what’s good for them
[2010/06/29 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Keynes said the government should save when times are good and spend when times are bad. But what they’ve done is spend when times are good and spend more when times are bad.
[2010/06/29 16:02]  Serendipity Seraph: it is assuming exactly what we have. thinking individual beings that know more about their own needs and situation than anyone else and respond faster and more accurately
[2010/06/29 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Zo — yes, that’s quite true
[2010/06/29 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: who the heck do you expect to know better what your needs are and provide them for you?
[2010/06/29 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, well, Seren, I’m sure there are a few… but what percentage of the global population is that?
[2010/06/29 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Experts!
[2010/06/29 16:03]  Serendipity Seraph: all of them. reality is a good and quick teacher when it is not faked out of that role
[2010/06/29 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Talking of population…is overpopulation going to be a problem?
[2010/06/29 16:04]  Archmage Atlantis: I refuse to ignore that the neo-cons goal was to bring down government by massive overspending, while claiming to be fiscally conservative
[2010/06/29 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A typical example…. if I’m ill, I go to an expert: a doctor
[2010/06/29 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t try to cure myself
[2010/06/29 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I could, I guess, do it by trial and error, using Wikipedia 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: I prefer to imagine they were merely incompetent, Arch.
[2010/06/29 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s far safer for me to consult an expert.
[2010/06/29 16:04]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t think so. underpopulation of those who can/will/expect to take care of themselves perhaps. 😛
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: of course. but division of labor is not a counter-argument
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Woman walks off an airplane, arm in arm with this guy with a bone through his nose. Mum cries ‘I said marry a RICH doctor!’.
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I want management by experts
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t. I’m totally against “management by experts”.
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: my life is not something to be managed by others
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes it is.
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Mostly.
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Archmage Atlantis: The problem is unbridled self interest
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Serendipity Seraph: neither is an economy which is more like an ecology than something human beings can “manage”
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes. We all depend on all others 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s the intellectual fantasy that has led to many of the conflicts and follies of the 20th century.
[2010/06/29 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: what is?
[2010/06/29 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: management by experts
[2010/06/29 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Zo — it’s the consequence of a civilisation based on specialised roles.
[2010/06/29 16:06]  Serendipity Seraph: especially “management” of and in contradistinction to economic reality
[2010/06/29 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can argue that it’s the wrong type of civilisation to have… sure, why not? We have had others
[2010/06/29 16:06]  Archmage Atlantis: Yes, even Plato made that mistake
[2010/06/29 16:06]  Serendipity Seraph: you don’t manage an economy in this way
[2010/06/29 16:07]  Serendipity Seraph: that does not work and has been proved not to over and over again
[2010/06/29 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Until 2007 I would say that few people would agree with you, Seren 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:07]  Serendipity Seraph: you would be mistaken.
[2010/06/29 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now it’s easy to say it doesn’t work lol
[2010/06/29 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what do you suggest instead? 🙂 A barter system in an anarchy? 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: it has not worked for most of 20th century. The degree to which an economy was managed and planned has over and over been the degree of its failure
[2010/06/29 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: pre 2007 we said was a triumph of free markets
[2010/06/29 16:08]  Archmage Atlantis: Greed is good ignores the need for a functioning society,,,,,,goverenment as a nanny overrides individual value
[2010/06/29 16:08]  Serendipity Seraph: although we didn’t really have them so much
[2010/06/29 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well… there are no perfectly free markets and never were
[2010/06/29 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the closest to a free market was perhaps the British Empire in the late 19th century
[2010/06/29 16:09]  Serendipity Seraph: there were much much closer in the US until the last 50 years or so. and we were the richest country of all
[2010/06/29 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that meant a wonderful way of life for merchants — and few social protection
[2010/06/29 16:10]  Serendipity Seraph: now we are becoming rapidly the biggest debtor.
[2010/06/29 16:10]  Serendipity Seraph: no. the real stats shows rising quality of life across the board with the rise of capitalism when it really meant closer to free markets
[2010/06/29 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: ..
[2010/06/29 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh why won’t everybody just vote Libertarian? 😦
[2010/06/29 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Zo
[2010/06/29 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: what is that?
[2010/06/29 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: people don’t want responsibilities, Zo 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: hello zaria!
[2010/06/29 16:11]  Serendipity Seraph: because the Libertarian Party became so watered down they fielded an ex drug czar for president?
[2010/06/29 16:12]  Archmage Atlantis: I disagree Gwyn, people don’t want responsibilities they see no purpose in
[2010/06/29 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well Seren… the problem with laissez-faire capitalism is that it means absolutely no protection and security to the majority of people
[2010/06/29 16:12]  Archmage Atlantis: Tho they may have limited vision
[2010/06/29 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Didn’t somebody once say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? Yet, we keep on electing conservatives and liberals. . .
[2010/06/29 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most don’t want *any* at all, Arch
[2010/06/29 16:12]  Serendipity Seraph: people have been trained that someone else will take care of them or should. this is very dangerous.
[2010/06/29 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, we vote on people to take care of us 😉
[2010/06/29 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: especially a faceless someone somehow
[2010/06/29 16:13]  Archmage Atlantis: Still disaagree Gwyn
[2010/06/29 16:13]  Serendipity Seraph: entitlements are so huge that if you count the ones unfounded on the books the US is in the hole for 5 times its GDP!
[2010/06/29 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: crumbs
[2010/06/29 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so let me rephrase that, Arch — most of the people *I know* don’t want any responsibilities at all 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:14]  Archmage Atlantis: Yes, but they were never intended to be unfunded
[2010/06/29 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: surely some, gwyn?
[2010/06/29 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I count them off the fingers of my hands…
[2010/06/29 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes. . . We’ve got to reign in the entitlements. . . and military spending too, though that’s a smaller portion of the problem. . .
[2010/06/29 16:14]  Archmage Atlantis: The funds were used for other things
[2010/06/29 16:15]  Serendipity Seraph: yes they were because they were promised with no build in ways to ensure they money would be there. just some dim idea that major growth would always continue.
[2010/06/29 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I can agree that the alternative — laissez-faire capitalism — doesn’t require any entitlements, people have to work to get their own entitlments instead of getting them ‘bestowed’ from above 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:15]  Serendipity Seraph: they were promised against future tax receipts. they were an IOU based on rosy glasses at best. At worse they were a blatant lie to get votes.
[2010/06/29 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, alas, not everybody has the same ability to work.
[2010/06/29 16:16]  Archmage Atlantis: Zo, what are the entitlements we need to reign in?
[2010/06/29 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Have we tried every possible economic model?
[2010/06/29 16:16]  Archmage Atlantis: :List them please.
[2010/06/29 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/06/29 16:16]  Serendipity Seraph: I would love to have the million or so extorted from me before I even saw my income to invest very conservatively oven the decades I have been working.
[2010/06/29 16:17]  Serendipity Seraph: so what? why should anyone’s inability be an automatic claim on me?
[2010/06/29 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Good question. . . Let’s take a look at the pie chart.
[2010/06/29 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s a social issue, Seren — a trait of humanity, as old as homo erectus: the society provides for the ones too weak/too ill
[2010/06/29 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: it is a trait of humanity to care for one another when and to the degree we wish to and can.
[2010/06/29 16:18]  Archmage Atlantis: Because you don’t what the rest of us to let you die in the hurricane/tornado/earthquake I assume Seren
[2010/06/29 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Bats too. One bat gives blood to another that did not find any, and later finds its generosity reciprocated.
[2010/06/29 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s what I meant that a model based on pure self-interest is not the kind of civilisation I appreciate 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:18]  Serendipity Seraph: it is not a trait of humanity to have the head monkey force you to give your stuff to others.
[2010/06/29 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely not
[2010/06/29 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or at least it shouldn’t be
[2010/06/29 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: Social Security, Unemployment & Welfare, Medicaid and Medicare are the biggest items on the pie chart. Along with the DoD of course.
[2010/06/29 16:19]  Serendipity Seraph: I am very giving. it is part of my nature. But I don’t appreciate being ripped off a gunpoint to supposedly help others but to actually do a lot of things I consider pure evil.
[2010/06/29 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the big problem with democracy 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The big advantage, of course, is that we *get to know* these things.
[2010/06/29 16:20]  Serendipity Seraph: hell I don’t appreciate being ripped off at gunpoint period for any aims whatsoever
[2010/06/29 16:20]  Serendipity Seraph: yes I am no fan of unlimited democracy.
[2010/06/29 16:20]  Archmage Atlantis: Speaking of ripping off at gunpoint, I see that the Supremes have decided we shoul all arm oursleves for self protection
[2010/06/29 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😛
[2010/06/29 16:21]  Serendipity Seraph: about time
[2010/06/29 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ^^
[2010/06/29 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Put those items together and that’s 75% of the US federal budget. Clearly it’s not going to be balanced without cutting into some (or all) of those things.
[2010/06/29 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh
[2010/06/29 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: /me celebrates! “Yay! We get more freedom!”
[2010/06/29 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I find it funny when I get Americans complaining they get “ripped off” their government…
[2010/06/29 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ve just relocated a company from Europe in the US because from my perspective, the US are a fiscal paradise 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *into
[2010/06/29 16:23]  Serendipity Seraph: yep. drop everything as quickly as practical except [real not BS] defense, court system and [rational] laws. Especially drop the notion you are going to take care of everyone’s health forever based no tax receipts. utterly unworkable especially with aging demographics
[2010/06/29 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m so happy about the gun ruling. Not that it’ll have any impact here in Texas anyhow. :/
[2010/06/29 16:23]  Archmage Atlantis: And I do agree that housing prices falling, and the pain we are experiencing, are a necessary consequence of the overspending of government, the unpatriotiic actions of corporations, and the selfish ways of a few
[2010/06/29 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: So are the gun laws one of the major priorities of this century, then?
[2010/06/29 16:23]  Archmage Atlantis: And that the pain is a good thing
[2010/06/29 16:23]  Serendipity Seraph: you find that funny, gwyn? why?
[2010/06/29 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Not anymore, Extie. It’s been a long hard fight though.
[2010/06/29 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because from my perspective, you live in a tax-free paradise 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: so we aren’t beat up as much as others so we shouldn’t complain about the beating?
[2010/06/29 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I get my properties and bank accounts regularly seized by Government every other month or so because I don’t earn enough to pay taxes!
[2010/06/29 16:24]  Archmage Atlantis: Yep, euthaniize everyone at 50
[2010/06/29 16:24]  Serendipity Seraph: are you kidding? (I hope)
[2010/06/29 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I’m not.
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s just a question of perspective really
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Archmage Atlantis: Or if they beccone uunable to produce
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: I’d still like to see the income tax done away with. It’s a crawling horror.
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: 5 odd minutes to go folks, so if anyone can think of a priority other than water, oil, or money..now is the time to name it:)
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Serendipity Seraph: no it is not gwyn
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: The oceans, Extie!
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Overfishing, you mean?
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: After Peak Oil, one of the huge things I worry about is the deteriorating state of the oceans.
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Overfishing and pollution.
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Serendipity Seraph: is that real though zoe?
[2010/06/29 16:25]  Archmage Atlantis: We’ve got plenty of oil in the gulf, just go pick it up yourself
[2010/06/29 16:26]  Serendipity Seraph: how much are we really talking about?
[2010/06/29 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Arch 😀
[2010/06/29 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: The oceans are being taken over by algae blooms and swarms of jellyfish.
[2010/06/29 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: yes Arch. Makes a change for the oil to invade America.
[2010/06/29 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: All the higher life forms are being fished out or poisoned.
[2010/06/29 16:26]  Serendipity Seraph: lol
[2010/06/29 16:26]  Serendipity Seraph: I don’t think so zoe
[2010/06/29 16:26]  Serendipity Seraph: where are the numbers?
[2010/06/29 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: I have seen these claims but not very convincing numbers so far
[2010/06/29 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Fish stocks are plumetting, Zoe.
[2010/06/29 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: I have something better than numbers. . .
[2010/06/29 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: sorry, Seren.
[2010/06/29 16:27]  Serendipity Seraph: there is an over-fishing problem that is solvable
[2010/06/29 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: yes. Fish less.
[2010/06/29 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Anecdotes! And. . . um. . . Sensational articles, yeah! 😀
[2010/06/29 16:27]  Lem Skall: grow more fish
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Serendipity Seraph: or farm fish and move tastes to the kind of fish that can be farmed
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes… farm fish
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Luisa:)
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: a lot can be farmed actually!
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Fish farming should have been developed decades ago, we’re way behind the curve on that.
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Luisa Bourgoin: *sigh* hello … hard time login, today
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Not Blue Fin Tuna.
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Zo — we need to do that more and more
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: We share your pain, Luisa.
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Lem Skall: when are we going to create new species of fish like we did with all the farm animals?
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome, Luisa!
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Serendipity Seraph: vertical farms with hydroponic veggies and fish in a cycle of inputs and outputs.
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Archmage Atlantis: Yes, landfills should make good fish farms…….they aren’t being used for anything else
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Shorahmin Femto: we all did Luisa
[2010/06/29 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Cousteau warned us, but most of the world didn’t listen.
[2010/06/29 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Lem! I would think that salmon is one of them
[2010/06/29 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean the current type of salmon we eat
[2010/06/29 16:29]  Lem Skall: is it? how different is it from the wild salmon?
[2010/06/29 16:29]  Serendipity Seraph: salmon can be farmed. tilapia is the easiest and by far cheapest to farm
[2010/06/29 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d also love to have something like “communal hydroponics”, e.g. on each apartment building or so
[2010/06/29 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: OR, we could learn to eat jellyfish. Yum!
[2010/06/29 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Seren
[2010/06/29 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh jelly!
[2010/06/29 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: They should engineer animals that want to be eaten, like in that Douglas Adams story:)
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Lem Skall: jellyfish puree
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that would be terrible, Extie!!!
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: eeeeek
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Why?
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Serendipity Seraph: “eat your jellyfish. it is good for you”
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Archmage Atlantis: Yes, salmon can be farmed…….and the are…..crowded together,,, in ponds that make wonderful vectors for disease
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Serendipity Seraph: and good for them!
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Serendipity Seraph: it makes them happy! “eat me!!”
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: Sort of like the way we raise chickesn, Arch?
[2010/06/29 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh well, the why shall hang in the air unanswered, for my time is up!
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Archmage Atlantis: Yes, exactly Zo
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Serendipity Seraph: don’t need to be any more vectors than they are now filtering whatever is in the waters
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: Does LL really need to ban nudity at its annual SLB event?
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Serendipity Seraph: SLB?
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: a much better topic!
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Second Life Birthday?
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: ..well whatever it is called.
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: My rezday slipped past me last week. . . I forgot and didn’t even login.
[2010/06/29 16:31]  Lem Skall: SL7B?
[2010/06/29 16:32]  Serendipity Seraph: when is the SLCC?
[2010/06/29 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Aw! Everyone send Zoe belated rezday hugs!
[2010/06/29 16:32]  Lem Skall: allow nudity at the SLCC though
[2010/06/29 16:32]  Archmage Atlantis: Male nudity….female nudity is artistic, as everyone knows
[2010/06/29 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: happy belated rezday, Zo!
[2010/06/29 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: just iRL though 🙂
[2010/06/29 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Thanks all you young whippersnappers!
[2010/06/29 16:32]  Serendipity Seraph: /me hugs zoe and dances around room with her
[2010/06/29 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: good question, why didn’t they made a separation approach as done with Zindra? an SLB area anywhere on that ocntinent
[2010/06/29 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: hmm, the storm is over. . .
[2010/06/29 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh SL7B on Zindra…..
[2010/06/29 16:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: whoa! Zoe is *ancient*
[2010/06/29 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that would have been FUN
[2010/06/29 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: What is the top priority/ it’s obvious, if you ask me/ forget the economy and environment, kids/ let me log in to this shoddy grid!
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