AFTER THINKERS.

This part of the blog serves as a kind of forum, where people can add comments about the Thinkers discussion topics I hold each week in Second Life. If you attended (or did not) but still have something to say about any of the discussions held, you can leave your comments here. Think of it as a place where nobody calls time on the debate:)

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2 Responses to AFTER THINKERS.

  1. Quick Quotes: ‘I’d say, if you can hide your identity and convey a visual image, it’s more powerful’….See, so you’ve defined what “cheating” means to both you and Seren: do whatever you wish, so long as you stick to your quality time with me…. It’s not the avatar that falls in love, Extie, it’s your mind….SL, RL, virtual characters, virtual world, fictionalised characters, alts… it’s all irrelevant. At the end of the day, it falls back to individual expectations.

    Transcript for the June 08 2010 topic, ‘YOUR CHEATIN’ HEART’:

    Today we are discussing a finding by Hamlet Au..
    Extropia DaSilva: A recent poll found 56% of participants agreeing that people are more likely to be unfaithful to their virtual/real world partners in SL than in any other online medium.

    Why is this sort of behaviour more likely in SL? And should we be expected to adopt RL relationship rules in a virtual world, anyway?
    person A: Is it actually more likely in SL, or is it just something that a lot of people “agree” is more likely? πŸ™‚
    person C: The interesting issue for me was, why SL? A sopposed to, say, webcam chat…
    person C: *as opposed
    person L: No, yes, and why not….well I answered that question
    person L: nothing more worth sayaing
    Extropia DaSilva: Bye then, Arch.
    person C: hehe remind us of what you answered…
    person M: It’s a bit ambiguous, don’t you think?
    Extropia DaSilva: what is?
    person I: more than a b it, like many studies
    person E: well, in a place where you have avatars, 3D and sex anims you are probably more likely to play than in a phone chat or torrid IM.
    person H: should we be expected to adopt RL relationship rules in a virtual world, anyway?
    person I: but- assuming it;s true for the sake of argument –
    person D: first of all it was a very unscientific poll with a very small margin above 50/50, so I would say inconclusive
    person F: is there any other media which has “partners” in the same way
    person E: the point of more immersion and all
    person I: Yes, they do in WoW
    person E: but what exactly is and is not cheating?
    person C: What were the other alternatives to SL?
    person C: WoW…. text chat…. webcam chat…. other virtual worlds?
    person C: Phone sex?
    Extropia DaSilva: Do you think the fact that most people prefer an avatar that is idealized and rather hot-looking has anything to do with it? In SL people have got it, flaunt it, and probably get a bit flirty.
    person H: What’s WoW got to do with sexual encounters ?
    person C: I’d say, if you can hide your identity and convey a visual image, it’s more powerful
    person F: but i don’t see the level of commitment compared to SL
    person I: they have partnersd on Wowe, they have IM sex, they have marriages
    person F: i live here
    person E: given a choice, how many would prefer to not look good?
    person I: that is why I mentioned it
    person F: truly
    person I: not to the degree that people dohere
    person C: hehe Seren β€” oh yes πŸ™‚
    person C: then again, there is a fantasy aspect
    person D: I don’t know, DO I look good?
    Extropia DaSilva: I know I do.
    person C: I mean… no matter how much makeup I put on webcam chat, I never look as good as my avatar in SL… lol
    person D: I was going for respectable ;P
    person H: ok ok ok . . first of all, isn’t there an order of … speaking here πŸ˜€ ? How is that handled πŸ˜€ ?
    person C: No order, Elsurion πŸ™‚
    person K: I think it also depends on the level of rl involved
    person F: i think the intensity and and depth of emotion in SL relationships have a lot to do with it
    person C: We’re Chaos Incarnate πŸ™‚
    person H: Mayhem !
    person C: Yes!
    person E: nice thing about text chat is it is free flowing and multi-dimensional
    person C: Judith, but you have those elsewhere too
    person A: Your avatar isn’t you. . . It’s Awesome You. :/
    person H: Who’s addressing who, then ?
    person F: not like this
    person D: Elso, I am addressing you for instance
    person H: I don’t agree that avatars are better looking than RL people
    Extropia DaSilva: The order is…anyone speaks whenever they feel like it, and I have ultimate authority in deciding what is off topic, what is not, when the discussion is over.
    person D: Elsu
    person A: Or in my case, a bunny. At least today.
    person H: it’s 3D objects with textures flastered on them
    person F: c ool
    person E: sometimes an avatar is you in a more awesome visual package
    person C: Ok… I agree, Judith… but what are those characteristics of SL that make it more prone to cheating?
    person L: Good
    person F: the sheer number of people
    person K: I think the more rl comes into play the greater the commitment
    person C: Hmm
    person F: to say nothing of the sheer number of animations
    person F: rofl
    person I: it is interesting when people make avies that are actually ugly, but they think look great, because they are so sexed up or whatever
    person D: I never had an SL relationship, I don’t about cheating either
    person C: Ok… so, more visual clues
    person I: it reawlly shows you their ideal of beauty
    person F: and the intensity of a new relationship
    person L: Extropia established the law
    person C: Idealisation…. fantasy…. visual clues… (that includes many sex anims)
    person A: I don’t think those kind of avs look “great”.
    person I: no
    person I: but the operators feel free from whatever they think is wrong with them in RL, maybe for the first time
    Extropia DaSilva: Remember this talk is not about how our avatars look and why they look that way. It is about infidelity in SL.
    person E: it is the immersion thing. we are highly visual creatures and wired for 3D
    person I: yes, sorry
    person I: but,
    person K: What is somebody comotting to if it is strictly sl? A fantasy
    person D: there are more people who are in here for sex and relationships so there are more people looking for more than one relationship too
    person A: phoo. . . we get dragged back to boring topic. . .
    person I: ing a lot of *opportunities* for so-called cheating, maybe goes to a lot of people’s headsfor the first time have
    person F: i see some people who go from relationship to relationship
    person E: much of our signalling including sexual/romantic is there
    person F: in a week’s time
    person C: Right, Extie! But as they say, “opportunity makes the thief”. And Hamlet’s article says, “SL is more prone to infidelity than OTHER forms of online communication”. So my question was, why SL?
    person C: Judith: I see that iRL too hehe
    person E: opportunity may make the theft but not the thief
    person F: oh wow gwyn
    person F: haha
    person C: I stand corrected, Seren πŸ™‚
    person K: Don’t you need a thief for the theft?
    person H: I think .. .. that you should announce to everyone, that they mustn’t expect any kind of RL normed behaviour of you, while in SL
    person H: ANY kind
    person I: if that is what you wish
    person F: hmmm that’s rather hard elsu
    person I: people need to communicate way more
    person H: the should expect to see you doing the weirdest shit
    person B: The biggest tool of unfaithfulness of the person in SL is the ALT where you are you but in fact NOT you so you are hidden lol!. Players if they don’t ‘score’ with the avatar in their sights they try again under the cover of a ALt making this a game of ‘How to be Unfaithful and not get Caught’ and once a score is obtained they are tossed on to one side and the next one is hunted down.
    person H: EVER
    person H: non-stop
    person D: Elsu, but if you do that, then people may not want to have a relationship with you
    person E: how do you all define cheating? what is and isn’t allowed in your relationships in this or any world?
    person H: and not complain about it at all
    person K: Isnt’the real difference also if you play Sl or if you use sl?
    person L: My question Gwyeth, is why who see that way by others, but do not see it for tnemselves
    person C: Cheating, right… it’s easy to define it: any kind of relationship engaged without your partner’s consent.
    person E: eww, rigrun
    person F: aha the gamers vs the immersionists
    person D: Seren, depends on what you define as a relationship, where there is a relationship there is potential cheating
    person C: It’s a good question, Archmage
    person I: yes, but each partnership may have its own parameters and expectations — this differes from RL
    person C: How so, Veena?
    person K: Gwyneth, so for every relation (business, friendship etc) i need my partner’s consent?
    person E: if your partnership requires consent for the whatever is in question
    person I: well
    person J: immersionist vs. dissaciatrives. They ndo not mix in SL
    person C: hehe Jerome β€” no, I wasn’t thinking about *business* relationships πŸ˜‰
    person F: a new term for me dissaciatrives
    person F: ?
    Extropia DaSilva: Seriously, if you somehow got hold of transcripts of your partner’s chatlog, and it was clear they were spending hour after hour after hour having really hot and intimate IM sex with somebody in SL..could you dismiss it as just fantasy?
    person D: trust is the same in RL or SL even if the parameters are different, if you trust someone the trust can be broken
    person I: if a pair pf people decides to partner, with the expectation that they may play woith opther people under certain circumstances, etc – thatr is muych more usual in SL than RL
    person C: I agree, Lem
    person H: It’s the way of the comfort-softened, to replace RL with 3D computer fantasy and give meaning to it overly
    Rigrun Torok: in other words beware of the ‘Players’ here
    person I: I have that sort of relationship but that does not mean I ever want to see the chatlogs
    person I: of course it would upset me
    person K: So hot IM sex cocnstitutes to a relationship?
    person I: and I don;t want him to see mine
    person E: there are relatively open relationships, closed relationships, open with emotional involvment restrictions and de facto can’t get enough of each other so don’t have time for others that way relationships.
    person C: Seren: if you agree with your partner that none of your relationships require consent… that’s giving consent-by-default πŸ™‚
    Extropia DaSilva: It constitutes a fair part of my relationship;)
    person F: no not replace – enhance elsu
    person E: I fall into the later category currently. *takes my wife’s hand*
    person H: yes but overly contributing meaning to it = replacing
    person C: I totally agree, Seren πŸ™‚
    Extropia DaSilva: But maybe that is not the worst…Maybe it would be finding out that somebody in SL is trusted with intimate secrets of the heart that your husband/wife never told you?
    person F: that could hurt
    person C: that would be the definition for me β€” never do anything that would hurt your partner
    person C: very simple πŸ™‚
    person C: when in doubt, ask ourself what would hurt *you*
    person C: *yourself
    person F: good point
    person D: Gwyn, so never break up with him
    person E: having a confidant it is safer to talk to because you don’t have it sorted and don’t want to risk an important relationship is not a bad thing necessarily
    person C: Lem: that’s how I feel about my partner, yes
    person C: and it’s mutual πŸ™‚
    Extropia DaSilva: Your partner? You are not partnered.
    person C: not in SL πŸ˜€
    person D: Gwyn, but you may still break up with him someday
    person E: well, that isn’t simple, gwyn. πŸ™‚
    person M: Jealousy is an illness by default, people
    person C: it is for me, Seren πŸ™‚
    person C: You see, I know *how* I feel β€” and can project those feelings upon my partner
    person C: (we’re great, humans: we can walk in someone else’s shoes πŸ™‚ )
    person D: ah, so you ARE prrojecting
    person J: Jealousy is a matter of insecurity
    person C: Obviously, Lem
    person H: You can’t get around that simple fact – jealousy ruins love, period
    person E: sure. although partners can surprise us by feeling differently than we do
    person C: They most definitely can, Seren!
    person F: but why would someone here cheat with abandon and would never dream of it in rl
    person C: But we still can define boundaries based on commonly held assumptions.
    person C: Judith: because they feel they wouldn’t be caught? πŸ˜‰
    person F: yep
    person E: what is jealousy? fear of losing a very vey precious thing ruins it?
    Archmage Atlantis: Are not what feelings make us living, and not machines
    Extropia DaSilva: Somebody mentioned alts. Is it cheating if my primary sets up another account, makes up a new digital person and has romantic relationships with somebody other than Serendipity?
    person D: there are divorce lawyers in RL not in SL
    person J: Cheating, RL or SL, comes only when one’s needs are not being met
    person D: oooh, good question Extie
    person C: Seren: yes, fear of losing precious things
    person K: SL breakups have even been taken to vourt
    person K: court*
    person K: RL court
    person C: Frederick: that’s a simplification! Although it’s often true, yes
    person G is Online
    person H: Ok, expressing it ruins love .. the act of showing jealousy
    person J: I like simple
    person E: there are detectives in SL specializing on whether your RL partner or SL partner is cheating on you so I would not be surprised by SL divorce court.
    person F: can’t say extie i just cn’t imagine it
    person C: Extie… again… depends. What would you feel if Seren has an alt that has another relationship with someone else?
    Extropia DaSilva: Does the fact that I am very clear about being a fictional character of sorts, give my primary more right to play around with other identities with other avatars?
    Aurora Kitaj is Online
    person F: this is the real me i can’t think of any other “me”
    person H: If someone you love wants to be with someone else – that’s that
    person K: What do you think the rl judge looked like that had to decide who was getting the Skilodge and who the helicopter gunship?
    person C: It has little to do with “characters” or whatever you wish to say about yourself; it has to do about what you feel, and how you can make othershurt or be happy.
    Extropia DaSilva: Nor can I.
    person E: Your fictional character has a morality and self-image too
    person I: personally, I think the idea of “cheating” is a very value laden way of framing it
    person I: and not in a good way
    person F: lol jerome
    person J: My point was an attempt to answer the question of the day: SL cheating may be more prevelant becausee it is harder to meet anothers needs here.
    Extropia DaSilva: Well this is my world. I am not fictional in SL. I am as real as it gets.
    person F: me too extie
    person C: “morality” can be simply defined with: do what makes others happy, refrain from doing what hurts others. Use your own feelings as a measure. You’ll get it right 80-90% of the time πŸ™‚
    person D: well, we have both of you here, so let’s ask: Seren, would you feel cheated if you found out that Extie’s primary has an alt in a relationship with someone else?
    person I: but it is true that a lot of people expect SL to be like RL ponly better, and that means their partner will love onl.y them
    person I: thatr isn;t realistic even in RL, people have friends, family – more than one person
    person F: it can be that way veena
    person I: anbd history
    person E: I have been in open relationships that worked, here and in the so-called real world, monogamous relationships that worked, everything in between and all of those that didn’t work.
    person C: (and Lem: the same ought to be asked switching Extie & Seren)
    person L: Extopia, never realized you are fictional……..I have given too much credit to an imaginary idea
    Extropia DaSilva: What if my alt fell in love or lust with me?
    person C: lol Extie β€” you’re avoiding the question by asking more questions πŸ™‚
    Extropia DaSilva: Could happen…I am pretty hot.
    person E: I don’t think love as such is exclusive.
    person H: Yes, Gwyn – morality = logic = beneficiary thoughts and actions
    person F: roflmao
    Extropia DaSilva: sorry, which question?
    person C: Seren, yes, of course. Those relationships work if nobody is getting hurt.
    person D: Extie, I think you already are in lust with yourself, that may be cheating already ;P
    person F: omg lem
    person C: Extie & Seren:
    [15:53] person D: well, we have both of you here, so let’s ask: Seren, would you feel cheated if you found out that Extie’s primary has an alt in a relationship with someone else? [and the reverse]
    person E: And I think constraining it artificially is more about fear of loss, being alone and other deep evolutionary programming than it is about love.
    person L: Lem, we are born in lust with ourselfs
    Extropia DaSilva: No. Just stating the facts. To be honest, it is more to the credit of the avvie and clothes designers of SL than to me. I look hot because of their skills.
    person L: We are born centered on the self
    person L: It is survival
    Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not all, Archmage. As a matter of fact, we Westerners have this strange concept of hating ourselves, which is not present in other societies…
    person E: yet relationships are work and take committment. it is easy to “have fun” but not really dedicate here even more than in RL.
    person F: so true gwyn
    person D: love, hate, it’s the same thing
    person C: But I agree that we’re self-centred
    person F: ah seren that is important
    person H: What is a ‘westerner’, Gwyneth ?
    person E: being centered on the self doesn’t mean that we define the self too narrowly
    person C: I agree at the commitment, but the question is what the nature of thatcommitment is
    person F: a non easterner elsu
    person C: Anyone west of the Urals, Elsu πŸ™‚
    person H: Urals ?
    person D: the witch from the west
    Tama Ahn is Online
    person H: ok
    person H: Just checking where I fit
    person C: … and northwards of the Mediterranean
    person D: Europeanish
    person C: well, it certainly includes US & Canada πŸ˜‰
    person L: West of the lines of Mars then
    person E: alien visitor from wherever πŸ™‚
    person H: But who is a “centralner”
    person D: why the -ish
    Extropia DaSilva: OK to answer the question. I would be fine with Seren’s primary having relationships with other people via alts, just so long as it did not effect Seren’s attitudes. For instance, if Seren never logged in anymore, because primary wanted to run the alt and enjoy that relationship instead…it would bother me.
    person C: … and by a weirdness of logic, Australia & New Zealand hehe
    person G: Western refers to general European based culture.
    person C: thank you Scarp πŸ™‚ (and hi!)
    Extropia DaSilva: hello Scarp:)
    xyryx Simca is Online
    person G: hi de hi
    Extropia DaSilva: ho de ho.
    person H: I don’t feel like much of a westerner, and I live in Europe
    person C: Ok, Extie. See, so you’ve defined what “cheating” means to both you and Seren: do whatever you wish, so long as you stick to your quality time with me.
    person H: nvm
    person L: Nimbus (cat) emands to be hold…….affects keyboard
    person F: hmmmm
    person D: anyway, based on what Extie said, then Seren having alts with other relationships would not be cheating because it would not break Extie’s trust
    person E: so primary’s loves get jealous even of hacking time, of anything that takes away from one-one time in some cases. jealousy as such isn’t much as criteria.
    person C: hehe Elsu β€” I was talking about generalisations. If you live in Europe, you’re immersed in a certain culture, even if you feel outside of it (you wouldn’t be the only one!)
    person C: Lem: exactly
    person G: Only if you are schizophenic.
    person F: haha scarp
    person G: phrenic
    person H: no, I have a certain feel for what “western values” mean
    person C: Well, I agree that “cheating” differs from partnership to partnership. Extie has defined quite clearly what it means for her.
    Filthy Fluno is Offline
    person C: (and hopefully for Seren as well!)
    person F: but to the question why in SL it’s because this is such a superb virtual world
    person D: like Gwyn said, it’s a matter of expecations
    person C: heh πŸ™‚
    person C: oh, totally so, Lem
    person C: there’s no question about that πŸ™‚
    person M: it’s mostly about being overly mainstream, consumerist, comfort-softened, a belief in pseudo-FOS, etc
    person G: I know a sl couple who are a rl couple and both of them are sl married to other people. Go figure. And they double date too! ha ha
    Extropia DaSilva: FOS?
    Emma Nielsen is Offline
    Extropia DaSilva: What is that?
    person C: SL, RL, virtual characters, virtual world, fictionalised characters, alts… it’s all irrelevant. At the end of the day, it falls back to individual expectations.
    person H: Freedom Of Speech
    person C: that’s fun, Scarp!!
    Extropia DaSilva: oh thanks.
    person H: Yes, exactly.. what is that – it doesn’t exist
    person B: Most ppl here are saying they would not be unfaithful themselves however. YES if they had an ALt that says it all!
    person E: Seren is utterly devoted and my primary has little time for running other alts
    person F: i find that most people here have very shallow relationships so it’s easy to move about from on to the next
    person G: Yes, Gwyn has hit the key concept. What rules and expectations do partners have for each other.
    Emma Nielsen is Online
    person H: If you anger the big boys, you get “eaten by the dark”
    person D: Scarp, I think it is worth including individualism versus collectivism
    person C: I find that most people EVERYWHERE have very shallow relationships, Judith πŸ˜›
    person H: hence, no real FOS
    person F whispers: well hmmmm
    person C: heh Elsu πŸ™‚
    person F: i don’t
    person C: I said “most people” πŸ™‚
    person C: You’e *special*
    person F: but that’s just me
    person E: this is true. someone to be with is not much of a relationship
    person C: yes!
    person F: what’s fos
    person J: Where did you get taht statistic/ mOST PEOPLE?
    person C: Also, don’t forget that “most people” (probably doesn’t apply to many of you β€” you’re all special!) engage in relationships to feel themselves *better*
    person E: observe most people. it is obvious
    Extropia DaSilva: You are like me, Seren sweety. My patterns take up too much capacity to run another digital person, at least not one that would be more than just another aspect of my own personality. Of course, that may well change once my primary is a robot with a brain capacity orders of magnitude beyond ten thousand humans.
    person H: Freedom of Speech, Judith
    person C: Fred: statistical analysis of all my acquaintances πŸ™‚
    person J: πŸ™‚
    person E: pay attention to your friends and acquantances. look at the way relationships are portrayed in literature and media. most people make a huge mess of it.
    person L: Gotta go, yes I still meat pon a puppets strings…..talk amoung yourselves
    person F: most paeople that i know
    person C: 10 have meaninful relationships which they have engaged to please their partners only; the remaining 2000+ have engaged in relationships only to please themselves πŸ™‚
    Extropia DaSilva: bye::)
    person F: oh lord am i one of the 10 i demand to be
    person C: Seren: like a teacher of mine always says, “we don’t get an instruction manual when we’re born” πŸ™‚
    person C: yay Judith!
    person F: hahaha
    person E: sure, darling. although I look forward to making love in a trillion forms at once with you and your alts someday. πŸ™‚
    person C *giggles*
    person F: ahem
    person H: It’s a difficult matter, trying to set standards for relationships
    person C: lol !
    person J: What is wrong with pleasing yourself if your partner is pleased at the same time?
    person G: It’s not an either or proposition. Pleasing others pleases you and them and is a successful strategy for happiness.
    person C: I’d avoid that, Elsu. Every person is different.
    person H: first of all, they ARE based on physical appearance, to a certain extent
    person C: Exactly, Scarp!!!
    person I: each pair of people needs to define it for themsleves unfortunately
    Tama Ahn is Offline
    person C: Alas, as said, the overwhelming majority of all my acquaintances have it the other way round πŸ™‚
    person I: and that requires talking a lot, before stuff happends, so everyone is prepared, and also afterward, so they are reassured
    person C: Fred: motivation
    person F: i never knew there were partners in wow – is it like here?
    person C: Motivation is what matters.
    Extropia DaSilva: OK. Somebody once asked if it is possible to fall really, deeply in love in SL…but ONLY in SL. So, as soon as this person logs off, she is no longer roleplaying a character who is in love and feels indifferent. Unemotional. Can you really fall genuinely in love in SL, and not have it leak out into RL and affect RL behavior?
    person J: You may want ot consider changing the groups that you run with then, Gwy
    person I: Extropia, I don;t believe so
    person F: absolutely flatly NO extie
    person C: hehe fred β€” no, not really
    person C: Extie: only if you’re not human πŸ™‚
    person I: But, you can be in love here4 without expecting the relationship to become an IRL one
    person F: yes veena
    Serendipity Seraph: My primary and I share heart space as well as mind space.
    Extropia DaSilva: I agree with that.
    person G: I think that limiting it only to deep love in SL is impossible. You are you regardless of whether you are looking at your computer screen or not.
    Extropia DaSilva: What Veena said.
    person D: question: are we also more comfortable with other people’s relationships in SL than we are in RL? Would we react the same way to people talking like Extie and Seren in RL without knowing them well enough?
    person C: oh totally, Veena β€” like people “fall in love” when hanging around in bars and clubs, but have no intention to marry them
    person I: it is difficult especially since everyone is always asking me when we are getting together in real life
    person E: but my primary does not behave differently to non-SL loves as a result
    person C: i can answer that only truthfully for myself, Lem: and it’s AYE πŸ™‚
    person I: the thing is…
    person I: I think one thing people crave is that sensatyion of “falling in love”
    person H: SL is a part of RL
    person D: Gwyn, you are a hot blooded Latina ;P
    person I: not necessariloy the actuiality of having a loving partner long term
    person H: but you have to be aware what kind of a part it is
    person E: I don’t fall in love in a bar or club. in lust perhaps.
    person F: me too veena and they keep looking for that
    person C: Your primary, secondary, tertiary and so forth can “behave” whatever you wish them to behave, Seren β€” the point is just, what does the mind behind all that feel? πŸ™‚
    person C: Lem β€” lol
    person H: you press keys on the keyboards and click
    person H: you watch the computer screen
    person E: falling in love is wonderful. Time Enough for Love.
    person C: And yes on “lust” vs. “love”. Too easy to confuse.
    person H: all of that you do IRL
    person I: it isn;t just lust
    Tama Ahn is Online
    person C: yes, Elsu πŸ™‚
    person H: Yes, you can indulge a fantasy, and it’s ok
    Extropia DaSilva: When Seren has been intimate with me, I know the emotions and feelins she wakens in my kind of linger in my primary’s mind for a while after I am logged. But ve has to remember that Seren’s affections are aimed at ME, not my primary.
    person I: buyt that heady sense of communionj and — of newness
    person I: of closeness and being understood
    person E: the love I feel for one is not taken from another. there is the question of limited time and energy resources though.
    person D: ve?
    person J: Love, lust adn limerance…they all need to be understood.
    person I: you can believe that easily if you never discuss any stuffs – they assume they are understood
    person H: But you have to realize it’s pressing keys, clicking and watching a screen , IRL
    person I: then if something comes to the surface – it is the apocalypse
    person B: PPl when they are Alt don’t think they are cheating on someone else
    person C: So, Extie, are you saying that Seren’s emotions and feelings are directed to an object, and not to your mind? Mmmh.
    person C: I beg to differ πŸ™‚
    person H: and occasinally talking through the microphone
    Extropia DaSilva: yeah. Gender neutral terminology invented by Greg Egan.
    person E: yes frederick. many are confused about the differences
    Extropia DaSilva: Ve, Vis Ver.
    person E: I love limmerance but can’t let it run away with your mind.
    Scarp Godenot: The same type of anticipation of interaction with a rl lover happens with sl lovers. Your mind in consumed with interacting with them again all day whether you are online or not.
    person D: vat?
    person F: yep scarp
    person I smiles
    person C *nods* and agrees with Scarp.
    person I: yes
    person C: It’s all about mind
    person C: The “object of affection” is the mind
    person C: If it’s not,
    person I: that is the nature of love, in RL too
    Richard Dianthus is Online
    person C: then it’s just… lust, fetishism πŸ™‚
    person E: yep.
    person C: But not love.
    Extropia DaSilva: No ve instead of he/she vis instead of his/her and ver instead of her/him.
    person I: when you first get together
    person D: for us men, the object of affection is lower
    person C: Lem πŸ™‚
    person G: ha ha Lem
    person F: what lem?
    person H: Making an alt is just about getting caught .. it doesn’t matter
    Extropia DaSilva: Little things please little minds..
    person D: Judith, you need me to show you?
    person C: Oh, I wouldn’t say that, Extie πŸ™‚ hehe
    person C is always pleased by little things πŸ˜‰
    person G: Don’t say yes, Judith!
    person I: I madew an alt because all the poetry in my profile makes people not weant to talk to me — my p[artner knows about her
    person F: nope lem i just figured it out
    person F: har har
    Aurora Kitaj is Offline
    person I: but I don;t want to change my profile, I like me
    person C: What counts is what the other person is feeling behind those “little things” πŸ˜‰
    person I: but — I’m complicated and I know big words
    person H: yes, you can make 20 alts – it shouldn’t make a difference
    person C: Alts… those are just masks really. We wear them all the time
    person C: Exactly, Elsu !
    Arisia Vita is Offline
    person I: but they do a lot fo shopping and that keeps SL here
    Extropia DaSilva: Does the partner need to know about any alts? Do we have a duty to divulge such details to our closest friends and lovers?
    person E: I made an alt to test anims with and to sometimes be more anonymous. rarely use it though.
    person G: I think it might be easier to become infatuated with someone in SL, because you can believe in your own fantasy of them much more easily, because you have fewer cultural cues to sidetrack you.
    Richard Dianthus is Offline
    person F: don’t know extie
    person D: anonymous from what?
    person C: Extie, again, that depends! What motivates the partner to create alts? Does that hurt? If not, why worry?
    person I: yes, very useful for testing anims
    person E: there is no duty to divulge all parts of mind or action.
    person I: and also for listening to music when I can;t go there
    person G: Extie: I would say that ehical behavior would be to disclose alts. As honesty is paramount in love relationships.
    person I: it was not a duty but, it was my choice
    person E is not big on “duty”
    person C: if it’s at all possible, Seren… we can always come up with the ideal partner in the deepest recesses of our minds πŸ˜‰
    Extropia DaSilva: From me. Poor Seren, once she does those things to my red hot body I want them done again. And again. And again. She probably logs in with her anonymous alt to get some sleep.
    person D: if your alt has sex with your partner, are you cheating?
    person C: haha
    person C: lol Lem!
    person I: ^^
    person E: LOL
    person G: There is a lot to be said for having a stealth alt I must say….. heh
    person I: not if they know it
    person C: it’s a good question, if your partner doesn’t know!
    Extropia DaSilva: If I were a human, you could probably describe me as vain and narcissistic.
    person C: Your avatar might not be human, but your mind most certainly is πŸ™‚
    person F: never extie
    person I: I have heard stories of very paranoid people, creating alts to come on to their partners to see how they would act
    person E: hmm. bringing several alts along has some possibilities.. πŸ™‚
    person I: that seems deceptive to me
    person D: Extie, you mean that otherwise I can’t?
    person C: aye, those stories abound, Veena
    You decline UWA A&D platform from A group member named quadrapop Lane.
    You decline UWA A&D platform from A group member named quadrapop Lane.
    person H: well guys do it with girls
    person C: Elsu: I can’t lol β€” not *constantly* πŸ™‚
    person H: it DOES happen
    Extropia DaSilva: ?
    person I: guys should be able to roam free
    person C: hehe
    person I: the thing is, in RL thart has suchn a potential consequence, if a child is conceived or an STD is passed
    person F: hmmmm
    person H: so it’s always 1:1
    person E: so are you governed by this bundle of instincts Elsurion?
    person C: definitely not, Veena πŸ˜€
    person I: here –
    person I: but I know not everyone feels that way
    person I: in my view
    person D: how do you inseminate in SL?
    Extropia DaSilva: wow worst lag EVER.
    person E: specially here where you can’t inseminate anything at all?
    Richard Dianthus is Online
    person H: that’s a joke, right ?
    Khannea Suntzu is Offline
    person H: we react on visual impulse
    person I: but they should b ehonest
    person C: most definitely πŸ™‚
    person H: the arrousal is imminent
    person C *nods*
    person I: and not play with people who are looking for love
    person H: it’s a mechanism
    person F: whose arousal
    person H: keep that in mind please
    person I: mess with their heads and break hearts
    person D: btw, females actually have a strong instinct to pair for the genetical diversity
    person E: so this is like 3D interactive Penthouse to you.
    person C: heh heh
    Extropia DaSilva: We could take half the digital code underlying MY avatar, half underlying your avatar…mix it up and the result would be our offspring. Then, sweety, we upload half of my mind, half of yours, and have the resulting consciousness run our baby.
    person C: lol
    person F: good grief
    person C: you know, LL toyed with the idea of having genetic offspring for avatars
    person I smiles
    person D: the baby goes to Teen SL
    person G: I think the percentage of sl that is sex related is constantly overblown. Because this type of storyline is tittilating.
    person I: but the minute they become annoying, you can take the baby back into inventory and go shopping :p
    person E: sounds like fun. or we could take turns running the baby. ore each run parts of its society of mind
    person I: you can;t with a real baby
    Extropia DaSilva: I think we should just adopt Katherine Berry.
    person I: for 18 years and beyond, you are responsible
    person G: Scion human babies are next?
    person C: aww we have to invite Katharine
    person F: oh gawd scarp the horror
    person I: if my husband didx that and involved us with another child – I’m involved whether I want to be or not
    person C: haha Scarp!!!!
    person E: me too. the sex is such a small part of love anyway. very very wonderful part that it is.
    person H: hmm
    person H: small part
    person H: 😦
    person D: good save, Seren ;P
    person I smiles
    person C: for some… yes, I agree, Seren
    person C: actually, for *most*, when sex is a LARGE part, the relationship will not last forever πŸ˜‰
    person M: how can it be small & wonderful
    person C: cumplicity and intimacy go waaaaay longer.
    person F: oh gwyn not too sure of that
    person C: lol Elsu πŸ˜€
    person D: but how often do you have love without sex? and yet you have sex without love all the time
    person H: this is not a physically “small’ thing
    person C: Well, again, i can only talk about my circle of acquaintances
    person H: it’s abstract
    person G: cumplicity…… ha ha ha
    person H: if it’s wonderful then it’s a big, great part
    person E: perhaps you have to be female to get that Elsurion. πŸ™‚
    person I raises an eyebrow and smiles
    person H: anyway, you don’t measure that
    person H: no, I don’t
    person C: oops Freudian slip there, Scarp πŸ˜€
    person C: hehe
    person D: get what? sorry, I didn’t get it
    person E: it is a jewel within something much more precious
    person C: sex πŸ˜‰
    person F: aw seren i like that πŸ™‚
    Extropia DaSilva: πŸ™‚
    person C: I’m joking, Lem, we were talking about how important sex is in a relationship based on love
    person H: it’s relative
    person D: Seren just proved her primary is a woman or else she’s a damn good writer
    person H: if you’re ugly it’s different than if you’re good looking
    person E: sex I can do with many different people. deep loving relationship with very few.
    person C: Those are not exclusive, Lem πŸ˜›
    person F: do the other places like WOW have alts like sl does?
    person H: if you’re ignorant, it’s different than if you’re intelligent
    person C: (she can be BOTH a woman AND a damn good writer, lem)
    person D: I don’t know about WoW, I can say EVE does
    person I: I believe Wow does, Judith, however they have to pay for them so it is not as prevalent – is my impression
    person F: aha
    person C: Oh, the number of active alts in SL is also overrated…
    person F: so there could be an important part of why it’s more prevalent here
    person I: yes
    person C: An old statistic said that there were, on average, 2.6 avatars per human person
    person H: Can someone please whip us back on topic again, plox πŸ™‚ ?
    person F: that’s a lot to me
    person G: Gwyn: do you have any idea of the real active alt to primary character ratio?
    person C: Of course, that means that some people could have 1000 alts…
    person C: Scarp: it used to be 2.6:1
    person I: the number you can have is unrestricted and the shopping drives the SL economy, yet LL ofgficially does not endorse double clienting
    person G: I have two alts , but only one that is really very active.
    person D: Elsu, it’s been as on topic as it gets
    person E: I have 3 avatars but almost never run but one. rest are for bots or special purpose.
    person F: we’re on topic i think
    person C: Likewise, Seren πŸ™‚
    person H: THen it needs to GET more
    person H: πŸ˜€
    person I: yes me too, we are the triple-faced goddess
    person I: but only I get very much inworld time
    person C: alts are too expensive to maintain… lol
    person G: I know many that have zero alts.
    person E: to really be/become a being in SL takes some time and work for sure.
    person D: Scarp, you sure?
    person C: Well, some people have way too much free time, Seren πŸ˜‰
    person G: Yes, we have discussed the concept of alts, Lem.
    person B: I have NO Alts and never will
    person H: I have a lot of free time and I never manage to do 10% of what I want
    person G: Some are opposed to it in principle.
    person C: YES Elsu! πŸ™‚
    Extropia DaSilva: To get us back on topic…do you think there is more need to determine the boundaries of the relationship in SL, compared to RL?
    person H: it’s about how broad your interests are
    person H: πŸ˜„ Gwyn
    person C: I think that we ought to worry about the boundaries in RL first and foremost, Extie πŸ™‚
    person B: Yes control the Alts
    person E: I think the needs are roughly equal as far as boundaries go.
    Emma Nielsen is Offline
    person D: Scarp, we are talking about cheating, so those people who said that may have “cheated” in the conversation
    person F: (he is alt-phobic )
    person C: Aye to that
    person C: (and that was to Seren=
    person H: alts are fine
    Extropia DaSilva: I mean, if Seren and I were falling in love in RL, would we have more need to determine what is allowed and what is not, or less need, or does it make no difference?
    person H: you cannot box them in – some are business alts
    person H: some you make cause your inventory got clogged
    person H: etc. etc.
    person H: yes there are malicious ones
    person C: Uh… unless you two are actually NOT run by the same mind… what difference would it make?
    person H: but you can’t box them in by default
    person I: I think discussing your relationship is desirable in RL and SL as well
    person D: Extie, it’s harder to escape from someone in RL, in SL you just log off
    person C: It’s not the avatar that falls in love, Extie, it’s your mind πŸ™‚
    person E: some have alts to explore things they may not want associated with their main or more public alts
    person G: I have found that the primary reason people make alts is to get more groups…..
    person C: oh yes, Seren πŸ™‚ I even have a RL alt for that πŸ™‚
    person I: ugh
    person I: that restriction is terrible!
    person C agrees with Veena and Scarp for that!
    person E: always fall in love with minds first in all worlds
    person C: definitely, Seren
    Extropia DaSilva: There are doll alts, which are used as extra bodies for the same mind, So you are the same person, just in a different avatar. BUt then there are active alts, in which each avatar is a person in its own right. And obviously you can imagine a spectrum running between those two extremes.
    person C: physical, virtual, or otherwise
    person D: Seren, how come you’re not in love with me?
    person H: The mind shows on the outside
    person C: Extie, yes, but… it’s the same mind running all of them.
    person H: if you’re born with a sense for that
    Extropia DaSilva: Because I am more beautiful than you are Lem. In every way measurable.
    person C *snickers*
    person J: Thanks for the good discussion. Hve to get back to RL
    Extropia DaSilva: Bye:)
    person C: see you, Fred!
    person D: Extie, you mean your mind? or your body?
    person G: I roleplay my main alt as an entertaining diversion. But it is hard to differentiate ones personality effectively….. Though I have ‘fooled’ many unintentionally.
    person F: she means both
    Extropia DaSilva: I mean the complete package.
    person C: πŸ˜€
    person D: hehe, you ARE in lust with yourself
    person G: heh
    person H: what’s “In lust with yourself?”
    person H: Egotism, vanity ?
    person C: Well sure, Scarp. It’s like actors pretending to be in love on stage. But as we all know, sometimes you simply act too well πŸ™‚
    person D: not what but who and it’s Extie ;P
    person C: Elsu: narcissim πŸ™‚
    person H: yes, that
    person C: (there is an S missing)
    person H: The guy who stared at the lake
    person G: I always remember the famous quote: Be careful what you pretend to be, that you will become……
    person C: yes!
    person C: oooh I love that one, Scarp!
    person E: both and the some.
    Extropia DaSilva: Narcissus. Fell in love with his own reflection.
    person D: I pretend to be a cynic
    person B: Safe Paths everyone
    person F: i sure hate to go but i have to damn it
    person D: I’ve been pretending that all my life
    person G: ha ha Lem, see?
    person C: I’d actually say that Narcissus actually fell in *lust* with his own reflection…
    person I: safe paths, Rigrun
    Extropia DaSilva: Anyway…time is up..
    person H: true beauty has to do with perception, because perception has to do with senses
    person E: actually there is also that Time Enough for Love thing. There may be many I could fall in love with based on their qualities but time and energy is limited.
    person F: good conversation – see you nexty time
    person H: cya :)(
    Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: WHEN IS SCIENCE PSUEDO?
    Extropia DaSilva: We have more access to information and knowledge than ever before. That makes filtering flawed thinking more crucial than ever.

    But how is one to tell what is psuedoscientific, and what is a maverick alternative theory, unjustly pushed to the far fringes?

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