Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers! (you think that is dense, try SpinBitz by Joel Morrison)

[2012/01/24 15:31]  Lem Skall: try books by RAW

[2012/01/24 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today we ponder…

[2012/01/24 15:31]  Scarp Godenot: You think that is dense, try Gravity’s Rainbow! haha

[2012/01/24 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: RAW?

[2012/01/24 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Sherry Turkle said, “just because we grew up with the Web, we think the Web is all grown up”. How does this belief influence our understanding of the present and the future?

[2012/01/24 15:31]  Lem Skall: Robert Anton Wilson

[2012/01/24 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. No, I cannot say I’ve ever read anything from him.

[2012/01/24 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh he of the jumpiong jesus phenomenon?

[2012/01/24 15:32]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): a gwon up net would require grown up inhabitants. that’s impossible

[2012/01/24 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: *jumping

[2012/01/24 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm, That rings a bell…

[2012/01/24 15:32]  Sophiekittycat: hello cleo

[2012/01/24 15:32]  Lem Skall: who here has grown up with the web?

[2012/01/24 15:32]  Lem Skall: I didn’t

[2012/01/24 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not me…

[2012/01/24 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: my understanding is that I have higher understanding of the internet and how grown up it is than my government that wants to sign ACTA regardless massive protests

[2012/01/24 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhi

[2012/01/24 15:33]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: nope

[2012/01/24 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my youth, webs were things you brushed away from corners…

[2012/01/24 15:33]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): I did. can remember beeing in the network when there hasn’t been any web pages

[2012/01/24 15:33]  Chraeloos: I was a child when it emerged.

[2012/01/24 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Me. I only exist thanks to the web. So do all of you, actually.

[2012/01/24 15:33]  Sophiekittycat: i have always know the wb i amjust 20

[2012/01/24 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Zoe!

[2012/01/24 15:33]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): if this comes true http://www.technologyreview.com/web/39487/?p1=A3 will the web be more grown up? Hehehe

[2012/01/24 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: what is that, Lab?

[2012/01/24 15:33]  Lem Skall: what is the web anyway?

[2012/01/24 15:33]  William Hawksby: not me

[2012/01/24 15:34]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): also other predictive off people that they are working on

[2012/01/24 15:34]  William Hawksby: its still magic for me

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi aph!

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Scarp Godenot: Sophie, you had two whole years without the web! heh

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Chraeloos: Hi Rhia!

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyn said, “Just because we grew up with democracy, we think democracy is all grown up”. How does that belief influence our understanding of the present and the future?

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Lem Skall: hi Rhi

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi everyone

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I know there was like a time when there wasn’t an internet, but I don’t remember it

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: The web is a disaster. It’s something hacked and bodged and bungled to very *poorly* perform a huge number of functions it was never meant for.

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): When did the Web start?

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: for our purposes the web is a general term for the Internet and all products/services it provides.

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Scarp Godenot: 1994

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: oh, so it’s like SL?

[2012/01/24 15:34]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): the “internet” as in “the web” I would call the idea of linking. The Links are forming the web

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: 1994

[2012/01/24 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: I was thinking of LInux actually.

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Scarp Godenot: But it really didn’t get going till ’95

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Sophiekittycat: the web is perhaps immature but me too then

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): with the military

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I was 9; no wonder I just think it’s always been here

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Linux, hmm, I remember toying with it in 1992 or 1993, but it existed already for a couple of years or so

[2012/01/24 15:35]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/01/social-radar-sees-minds/

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Chraeloos: I was 8 when my family got our first computer

[2012/01/24 15:35]  William Hawksby: it started as an academic network didn’t it?

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wellllllllll

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Sophiekittycat: it is the web that is immature or people ? and immature how , for who standards or goals ?

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The internet? No it started as a military network

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Scarp Godenot: The web came LONG after the internet

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: military network — implemented b y academics

[2012/01/24 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Nobody starting today from a clean slate would design anything like it.

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: I think so, yes. No Rhi, the Web

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: way, way long

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The idea was that there would be a form of communication that even a nuclear attack won’t stop

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Internet: 1969. Web: 1994

[2012/01/24 15:36]  William Hawksby: i remember a series of bulletin boards and dial up sites

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Jennys Willful: they know better than that now

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, the Web? I think some guy came up with it to tie together everything; not for any specific academci reason

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, I remember bulletin boards. I was on FidoNet!

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Jennys Willful: if weather can take out great chunks of it, nukes will have no problem

[2012/01/24 15:36]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): there is IPv6 replacing IPv4 so there are still sorta “growing pains”

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “chunks”, yes. The whole Internet, no.

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Lem Skall: I think the web is not mature yet, it will be matured when it will be regulated

[2012/01/24 15:36]  William Hawksby: the pictures were ascii – like gestures here

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: some guy as in Tim Berners-Lee?

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, just takes two computers standing, so no, weather is a temp thing

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: Bulletin boards were by phone line modem computer to computer. Not internet.

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh that was nasty, Lem

[2012/01/24 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The EMP will do it temporarily, though

[2012/01/24 15:37]  Lem Skall: lol

[2012/01/24 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, wash you mouth out with soap

[2012/01/24 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Right. You could send mail over Fidonet, but it often took a week to get a reply back.

[2012/01/24 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Internet was also by phone line modem, computer to server…

[2012/01/24 15:37]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): Lem’s definition of maturity equals mine of extinction

[2012/01/24 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Broncks!

[2012/01/24 15:37]  William Hawksby: sinc3e i didnt grow up with it and thye entiure thuing is a miraqcle for me- I have every confidence it is in its childhood and great things are ahead

[2012/01/24 15:37]  Lem Skall: truth is though that it may be regulated some day and it probably will

[2012/01/24 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha luh!

[2012/01/24 15:37]  Broncks: hi

[2012/01/24 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Growing up sounds a whole lot like dying, and dying don’t sound like a whole lot of fun”

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *what* will you regulate about the WEB? It’s just a protocol

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Chraeloos: I think eventually, unfortunately, it will “need” to be.

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Before web was USENET for threaded conversations….

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, you will regulate and make people have to pass codes around to by pass it

[2012/01/24 15:38]  William Hawksby: the ChyiComs regulate it pretty well-

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ⁄sigh

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Broncks: why would it need to be regulated?

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Which might be a good idea; the more regulation, the less the government will know what will happen

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: But Lem made an interestng and relevant point. What would make the web mature, assuming it is not already?

[2012/01/24 15:38]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): oh, you can regulate Megaupload

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, not the meaning I think we give to the word web

[2012/01/24 15:38]  William Hawksby: to keep evil thoughts out of thye impressionable minds of the proletariat

[2012/01/24 15:38]  Chraeloos: no, “need”. I don’t agree with it, but I think that eventually many people will think so. As all things come to an end.

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s like gun control; nobody will know how many guns you have or whether you have them in places like NYC or London

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Sophiekittycat: what i not understand when you say internet is immature it is how immature ? what do you expect from ? a merchant web a controled web ? an anarchist web ? a web without nude girls or without people saying lol pawned ?

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I think of the Internet like the weather and just use it when and how I can

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Broncks: lol ok good then

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Jennys Willful: and what is mature?

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Web will be mature when it’s users are mature.

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is, never.

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: The web was originally hypertext documents. That’s all. Wikipedia today is a lot like the original WWW vision.

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Jennys Willful: Lolcats are hardly mature but they;re still a highlight

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Sophiekittycat: proud to be immature, when i see most adults being mature is boring

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: But we stopped creating new internet protocols and decided to just shoehorn all new functions into HTTP/WWW.

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what’s maturity got to do with it?

[2012/01/24 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Sophie, good point. I’d consider the Web mature when the whole experience is as smooth and predictable as driving a car.

[2012/01/24 15:39]  William Hawksby: there is technologivcal maturity and moral maturity – not the same thing as to the internet

[2012/01/24 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Is this chair for me, as I always stand in the cneter?

[2012/01/24 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: The web is still in its early stages in my opinion. It will become more ubiquitous through enhanced reality devices.

[2012/01/24 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: The funniest part is the relentless quest to try and run *programs* in web browsers.

[2012/01/24 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: good point about moral maturity!

[2012/01/24 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: sit or tand where you please, Rhi.

[2012/01/24 15:40]  Lem Skall: there is separation of the web between countries, for instance, videos are blocked for me because I am not in the US; regulation can actually bring more universal access

[2012/01/24 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, Extie

[2012/01/24 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: the fad is stopping actually

[2012/01/24 15:40]  William Hawksby: im eager to see second life in thirty years or so- the tech should be amazing

[2012/01/24 15:40]  Sophiekittycat: all depend of what each of us expect or hate

[2012/01/24 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: YES!

[2012/01/24 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: Really?

[2012/01/24 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William, it will be indistnguisable from first life, can you spell “Tek” anyone?

[2012/01/24 15:41]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Web = tool and the maturity of the user or content of users varies as the reflection of a real life society and all it’s age ranges

[2012/01/24 15:41]  Sophiekittycat: the net will never be mature as people will always change and it will always have an important fun and uncontrolled part

[2012/01/24 15:41]  Chraeloos: I like that Sophie

[2012/01/24 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Lem, all countrie have some level of censorship (this sim is so laggy Sl cannot even process every letter my primay types, hence typos)

[2012/01/24 15:41]  William Hawksby: three dimension an Wii applied to SL

[2012/01/24 15:41]  Broncks: i hope so Sophie

[2012/01/24 15:42]  Lem Skall: Sophie it is much more controlled now than it used to be

[2012/01/24 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: Once SL type Virtual worlds start using 3d Headsets as standard tech, I think that might be the point at which VR will take off in a Web like way.

[2012/01/24 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (packetloss between 200-600% for me! eeek)

[2012/01/24 15:42]  Chraeloos: Caprica, anyone?

[2012/01/24 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem is right. I mean, search engines now have maturity ratings!

[2012/01/24 15:42]  William Hawksby: who enforces that stuff?

[2012/01/24 15:42]  William Hawksby: and why?

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: That will not happen while we have an lag, Scarp. It would cause motion sickmess.

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Lem Skall: google does

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Sophiekittycat: maturity rating should be named age or sexuality rating not brain maturity rating

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: I like Caprica.

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Sophiekittycat: maturity in english means too much thinsg at same

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have my doubts about VR sets, Scarp. I think that you will have 3D like on TVs today — no glasses and headsets necessary. People are lazy when wearing those devices.

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Lem Skall: Caprica sucks

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what is Caprica?

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Chraeloos: I like the idea behind Capria.

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Chraeloos: *Caprica

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Scarp Godenot: States Flatly: 3d virtuality will be ubiquitous. But when? We don’t know. at that point, what we used to think of as the web will be historical.

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Frack you, Lem!

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Chraeloos: BSG Prequel

[2012/01/24 15:43]  Broncks: a tv show

[2012/01/24 15:44]  Chraeloos: lol Extie

[2012/01/24 15:44]  Broncks: @ virtual blending with rl

[2012/01/24 15:44]  Lem Skall: sequel to BG

[2012/01/24 15:44]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): even DNS resolver offer censored access for families

[2012/01/24 15:44]  William Hawksby: it will be a good substitute for time travel and space travel- all thye fun without getting your feet muddy

[2012/01/24 15:44]  Lem Skall: the word “sequel” says it: it sucks

[2012/01/24 15:44]  Chraeloos: prequel, actually

[2012/01/24 15:44]  Lem Skall: prequel, even worse

[2012/01/24 15:45]  Lem Skall: made after, anyway

[2012/01/24 15:45]  Chraeloos: lol

[2012/01/24 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp, Sony hav some decent 3D specs fo the PlayStation3 but unfortumaely they have no accelerometer so do nout update the feed when you turn your head.

[2012/01/24 15:45]  Lem Skall: trying to milk it as much as possible, only based on the previous success

[2012/01/24 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: interesting, Extie

[2012/01/24 15:45]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): interesting observation about that behavior change while wearing headsets

[2012/01/24 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, at least we have agreed on something: the Web, being 2D, is boring. Right?

[2012/01/24 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or are we in SL for too long to think that way? hehe

[2012/01/24 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: But to make VR immersive it is far more important to ave a vibrant community than to be surrounded by pretty graphics.

[2012/01/24 15:46]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): no, not necessarily

[2012/01/24 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: Let’s not forget that todays technology will seem quite primitive in ten years.

[2012/01/24 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: SL seems primitive now.

[2012/01/24 15:46]  Lem Skall: does maturity mean anything unless it is part of a cycle that means death? what if there is no death, is there a mature stage then?

[2012/01/24 15:47]  William Hawksby: whispers: if it was three-D and interavtive would I have to get out of my comfy chair

[2012/01/24 15:47]  William Hawksby: ?

[2012/01/24 15:47]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): I assume the two spaces 2D/3D will glue together, like 3D parts inside a flat ebspace

[2012/01/24 15:47]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): ^webpage

[2012/01/24 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: But SL today is so much more advanced than it was in 2003, no?

[2012/01/24 15:47]  Lem Skall: can we not bring it about to SL, for once?

[2012/01/24 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: No william. The tech reads your mind so you do not have to move physically, just will an acttion.

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that with “Maturity” is mostly meant things like “reliability”, for example

[2012/01/24 15:48]  William Hawksby: whispers: cool can i eat cookies too

[2012/01/24 15:48]  William Hawksby: ??

[2012/01/24 15:48]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): hmm Will, the ‘comfy chair’ defines the consumer market. maybe technology doesnt really develop there

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: wb Zo

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, “stability” more likely

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes… stability

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: helo Prax

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Back on Firestorm. If I’m gonna crash anyhow, I might as well crash with a viewer I like.

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, William, like Extie says …— there are already mind-reading devices in the market for playing games

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Lem Skall: but stability also means stagnation

[2012/01/24 15:48]  William Hawksby: actually onhe of those Matrix boxes looks good

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Prax (praxisfield): hi Exti – greetings all

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are even sold on normal department stores as ‘novelties’

[2012/01/24 15:48]  Chraeloos: Hi Prax

[2012/01/24 15:48]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): I’m still waiting to see the 1200X1200 DPI or better for HMD for artist and gamers and scientist’s. That way we can create even nicer things than the lower quality and also enjoy them.

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: I wish I could remember the exact term for HUDs in your glasses that provide information of the real world as you move around in RL. Expanded reality? What is the term?

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: What would we want from a mature web, anyway?

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: really…. cars and mobile phones are stable, and they haven’t ‘stagnated’

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Lem Skall: augmented reality

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): expanded

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: AU Augmented Reality

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: Thanks Lem, yes Augmented reality.

[2012/01/24 15:49]  William Hawksby: last time i heard it was virtual reality but i guess thats expanded a bit

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You cna use mobile phones for AU, don’t need glasses

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: BTw there is a decemt free AU app forthe iphone called Aurasma.

[2012/01/24 15:49]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): it’s no longer virtuous

[2012/01/24 15:50]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): ha

[2012/01/24 15:50]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): mobile phones could get hologram long distance calls. like seen in Star Wars

[2012/01/24 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Virtual reality includes augmented reality and synthetic worlds (e.g. SL)

[2012/01/24 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and games etc

[2012/01/24 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: Google will of course control the world at that point.

[2012/01/24 15:50]  William Hawksby: i dont keep up : )

[2012/01/24 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “aurasma” is a terrible name lol

[2012/01/24 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: aurgasm

[2012/01/24 15:50]  Chraeloos: google practically DOES control the world

[2012/01/24 15:50]  Lem Skall: aur-ass-ma

[2012/01/24 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: you mean they don’t do it today? No wait… they share the world with Facebook, I forgot .)

[2012/01/24 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: scarp: my thoughts exactly.

[2012/01/24 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Gwyn. That is why I hope when I say I only exist online wpeople wil rexpgnize that someday ‘only’ will b meaningless.

[2012/01/24 15:51]  LessWrong: It controls connectivity; content realization seems separate architecturally

[2012/01/24 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: And twitter, who just yesterday enabled a type of threaded conversation…..

[2012/01/24 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Another kind of maturity is commercial maturity; when there is rising opportunity costs to enter the market, a set of companies dominating it, and new and wierd products to stimulate demand, as the market is saturated.

[2012/01/24 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Does any of that fit virtual worlds?

[2012/01/24 15:51]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): there is actually a p2p based search engine. that could easily blow away Google, the need for centralized search engines

[2012/01/24 15:51]  Lem Skall: hey, there is Aurasma Lite for ipad

[2012/01/24 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: yes Lem. Prettu easy to use, too

[2012/01/24 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: *pretty

[2012/01/24 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: good point. Are we there yet on the Web? Most of the “novel ideas” tend to disappear quickly after the venture capital behind those new ideas gets burned

[2012/01/24 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: Google will rule because they are the people who are tying RL mapping into all information technologies.

[2012/01/24 15:52]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): some ideas just need free code, no capital at all

[2012/01/24 15:52]  William Hawksby: people have a short attention span for new enet experienjces

[2012/01/24 15:52]  Lem Skall: mmmm, Extie, why did you think of mentioning that to me?

[2012/01/24 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: free code = someone free to write it

[2012/01/24 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And that kind of maturity is not necessarily a bad thing, but it does show that the “new” thing is readily a part of our lives

[2012/01/24 15:53]  LessWrong: Unless there is a privacy revolution. . .which is quite possible

[2012/01/24 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, William, some “net experiences” like Amazon.com, eBay…. or even SL…. have been around for over a decade

[2012/01/24 15:53]  Chraeloos: Likely, at this point, Less

[2012/01/24 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Google I know everything FB I know everyone Electricity ‘keep talkin’ bitches!’.

[2012/01/24 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyth, yes, and that’s why (one of the reasons) that internet regulation will fail if it gets excessive

[2012/01/24 15:53]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): actually Google, technicall is not centralized. it’s a swarm of several machines tied together

[2012/01/24 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or a lack-of-privacy revolution? BTW, seems that Google+ is reverting their anti-pseudonym policies

[2012/01/24 15:53]  William Hawksby: yes- i do0nt consider them a new experience- just a store on the net

[2012/01/24 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luh: about 450.000 — and that’s just Gmail

[2012/01/24 15:54]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): there are surely more user machines than those 450K

[2012/01/24 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: they used to be “new experiences” when they were launched. “Shopping on the net? ABSURD!”

[2012/01/24 15:54]  LessWrong: The battle over ubiquity is still being waged; however, the weapontry for content are clearly being lined up on the battlefield

[2012/01/24 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luh: yes, for Google Search there are probably more

[2012/01/24 15:55]  William Hawksby: yes- i guess the unique alwauys becomes the norm – like radio, telephone etc

[2012/01/24 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ WIlliam

[2012/01/24 15:55]  Thriller Dancer: Say ‘on’ or ‘off’to turn me on or off, or ‘help’ for more commands

[2012/01/24 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Ahhh you have as much chance of Linden Lab cancelling your Sl account as you have of Googl cancelling your G+ but for some reason we mke Google out as having some kind of vendetta against Nyms.

[2012/01/24 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I find it hard to believe anyone thought shopping on the net was absurd. But I guess it’s like “Man will never fly.”

[2012/01/24 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Orbiting laboratories and military apparatus? Absurd!

[2012/01/24 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that’s because, AFAIK, LL did never cancel any account “at whim”; while Google+ did it all the time.

[2012/01/24 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi:; you should have seen the discussions on USENET in the mid-1990s

[2012/01/24 15:56]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): it’s an abuse of ppower, that Nym war

[2012/01/24 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: I have had friends whose SL accounts were cancelled.

[2012/01/24 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I remember, uh, logging in to an “online library” which sold books… using TELNET

[2012/01/24 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: at whim? Or because they misbehaved?

[2012/01/24 15:56]  William Hawksby: i used to call Sears and order out of the catalog- is that any different from Amazon?

[2012/01/24 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William, no. It isn’t. But people thought it was.

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Because somebody accused themof bing underage.

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And were they, Extie?

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: How should I know?

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Amand!

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: I got my first computers out of the Sears catalog.

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See? So perhaps LL was right

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Scarp Godenot: Telnet was the standard for libraries for quite some time.

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Amandeep Timeless: howdee

[2012/01/24 15:57]  LessWrong: We are not in the age of meta data. . .and still in the infancy of dis-intermediation

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: *shrugs*

[2012/01/24 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: what does that mean, Less?

[2012/01/24 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Scarp, but it was a novelty for me in 1992

[2012/01/24 15:58]  Amandeep Timeless: intermediaries disappearing

[2012/01/24 15:58]  William Hawksby: i approve of disintermediation

[2012/01/24 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some will, Amand, others will become Internet Consultants

[2012/01/24 15:58]  Amandeep Timeless: direct contact between sourcer and sourcee

[2012/01/24 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That sounds like someone helping people negotiate whether to unbury Uncle Charlie

[2012/01/24 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I think not. We will need more intermediaries to manage the glut of infor,ation we accumulat in the years ahed.

[2012/01/24 15:59]  LessWrong: The goal of ubiquity has ben largely realized; meta data has been developing but it still very immature

[2012/01/24 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Just ask Siri!

[2012/01/24 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I actually agree, Extie…

[2012/01/24 15:59]  William Hawksby: to manage info is to conttrol it

[2012/01/24 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol yes, Zo

[2012/01/24 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn agrees. Now I know my opinion is correct.

[2012/01/24 15:59]  LessWrong: That is not to say that there is not an abundance of it out there

[2012/01/24 16:00]  Scarp Godenot: Crashing…..

[2012/01/24 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: ) *blws kissat Gwyn*

[2012/01/24 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s the fallacy of authority, Extie

[2012/01/24 16:00]  LessWrong: But from a semantic perspective, it is so abundant it is almost meaningless

[2012/01/24 16:00]  Prax (praxisfield): me to crahsi

[2012/01/24 16:00]  LessWrong: Google is god because google descibes what the meta data means today

[2012/01/24 16:00]  Amandeep Timeless: tweet of the day, hosts (ala Bill Maher’s “Overtime”, submittd questions directed to powerbrokers)

[2012/01/24 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: I know Lem woul rather we not discuss it but…does Sl figure in the mature web in any way?

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn types something to fight lag

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Works!

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What’s wrong with this sim anyway??

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, in the same way that Toyata figures into the mature auto industry

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, OBviously SL needs to run in a browser window. :/

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: what way is that?

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Forget the Web! When will SL become Mature?

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Answer: when the sim owner changes the settings

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Amandeep Timeless: i apologize for the RAV4, we didn;t knwo what we were doing!!!!

[2012/01/24 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*

[2012/01/24 16:02]  William Hawksby: how will we know when it becomes mature?

[2012/01/24 16:02]  LessWrong: We’ll be in the age of meta data, in my opinion, when we have our content aggregation and inference engines

[2012/01/24 16:03]  LessWrong: Sorry, our own

[2012/01/24 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, inference engines. AI to the rescue?

[2012/01/24 16:03]  Lem Skall: I think SL is an indication of web immaturity

[2012/01/24 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, it’s heading there, what with differently rated sims, education occuring here; I’m running a business here that is beginning to make mer real (if small) profit.

[2012/01/24 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’d say it’s well on it’s way to maturity, if it hasn’t gotten there

[2012/01/24 16:03]  William Hawksby: i have no idea what andinference engine is-

[2012/01/24 16:03]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): why Lem?

[2012/01/24 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Web immaturity or web maldesign? Or both?

[2012/01/24 16:03]  LessWrong: Today search actually filter more than search

[2012/01/24 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: It will be mature when the tch is invisible. Like switching on a light. You give it no thought because it always works. It just gets out of your way and les yo do wha you intended. That is mature tech.

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Amandeep Timeless: is the telephone mature yet?

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what does a mature web look like if it’s always changing?

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay Rhi, I’m so glad to hear that! I should interview you!

[2012/01/24 16:04]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): do we have a definition of maturity

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): right

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes the phone is mature.

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aph: why shoiuld “maturity” mean “immutability”??

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’d like that, Gwyn. Let’s set up a time

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Amandeep Timeless: is television mature yet?

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes we do.

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I didn’t say they were the same

[2012/01/24 16:04]  LessWrong: Television is obsolete

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Amandeep Timeless: are printed books mature yet?

[2012/01/24 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, TV is stable and reliable

[2012/01/24 16:04]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): television is dead. that might count

[2012/01/24 16:05]  William Hawksby: ha- phones are gettin g more and more complex every day – so is tv

[2012/01/24 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Less: most people in the world would disagree

[2012/01/24 16:05]  Amandeep Timeless: video display screens

[2012/01/24 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Amand, printed books are a passing fad. Mark my words!

[2012/01/24 16:05]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): but the web renews itself and becomes young again, reinventing itself constantly. It is cyclical not linear

[2012/01/24 16:05]  William Hawksby: \maybe when tv phone and net are all combined

[2012/01/24 16:05]  Chraeloos: Which is very unfortunate, Rhia

[2012/01/24 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: The phone is mature because you just pick it up and use it and it hardly eve lets you down. Unlike Sl where every time you login you expect it to crash.

[2012/01/24 16:05]  Amandeep Timeless: did they ever mature before they passed away?

[2012/01/24 16:05]  Chraeloos: they are William

[2012/01/24 16:06]  William Hawksby: i cant put kindle books o0n my coffee table to impress visitors

[2012/01/24 16:06]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): darn, if neither books nor television or phones will ever die, nor cars … will we for ever and always stick with ancient technology !?

[2012/01/24 16:06]  LessWrong: If you look at Googles “conversation” metaphore, it seems an attempt to grab search preferences from current reality as expressed in the constant stream of ever changing meta data.

[2012/01/24 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with Extie. TV, phone, cars are all mature technologies.

[2012/01/24 16:06]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Maybe a mature phone is not a disposable one but lasts for a long time

[2012/01/24 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luh, well, there’s even a market still for buggy whips.

[2012/01/24 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Why am I constantly pulling 100+ KB/s in this sim, even after textures appear to be loaded?

[2012/01/24 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: what is metadata?

[2012/01/24 16:06]  Amandeep Timeless: if you had 5 or 6 kindels it might

[2012/01/24 16:06]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): it should constantly grow for a while paralleling humans and technology as it evolves a bit more. But what it says about this http://www.sirifunny.com/ and maturity I’m not sure.

[2012/01/24 16:06]  William Hawksby: in 65- the princess phone was “mature”

[2012/01/24 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I think when it comes to phones, you have to give them greater responsibility every year; it is the only way they will be responsible adults

[2012/01/24 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or wait, is that teenagers?

[2012/01/24 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: metadata = information about data

[2012/01/24 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: kk

[2012/01/24 16:07]  LessWrong: The current inference that the “web is about what is current” is relevent to a consumer based web but not necessarily and an enlightenment web

[2012/01/24 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I’m pulling 675Kbps and have no diea why!

[2012/01/24 16:07]  William Hawksby: pretty swoon your phone will be living in your basement

[2012/01/24 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *idea

[2012/01/24 16:07]  Amandeep Timeless: horse daw carriages are hard on horse if on pavements

[2012/01/24 16:07]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): prolly a virus fetching it’s payload via this Sim

[2012/01/24 16:07]  LessWrong: In essence, the web as packaged today is about immediate history

[2012/01/24 16:07]  Conover’s Flight-Helper 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.

[2012/01/24 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the same doesn’t happen on the Web, Rhi, right? The question is, why not?

[2012/01/24 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, we have mobile phones since 1980…

[2012/01/24 16:08]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): it to my profile

[2012/01/24 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So is it just a question of time?

[2012/01/24 16:08]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): oh dont call them bricks ‘mobile’

[2012/01/24 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or regulation, like Lem suggested?

[2012/01/24 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luh: “portable”

[2012/01/24 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I think the web is too all encompassing for it to be “mature,” until it gets seamless, like Extie says

[2012/01/24 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: The mobile phone made one rite of passage obsolete. Used to be, kids faced tha day when they would be able to go into town unsupervised by parents, but now they remain tethered via the phone.

[2012/01/24 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There will always be zones of ommaturity on the web

[2012/01/24 16:08]  Lem Skall: glad to see that I am seen as a proponent of regulation

[2012/01/24 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: true, it’s 1984 all over again

[2012/01/24 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: hehehehe

[2012/01/24 16:09]  William Hawksby: i think the development of info-and comm- tech is eventually to be limited by reachinhg a poi8nt where we have enough info at a fasty enough rate

[2012/01/24 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Big Mumma is watching you.

[2012/01/24 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s the whip and chains you have Lem.

[2012/01/24 16:09]  Chraeloos: lol

[2012/01/24 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: He does?

[2012/01/24 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I was trying to think why TV, cars and mobile phones are mature, while the Web isn’t. What do they have in common that the Web doesn’t have?

[2012/01/24 16:09]  LessWrong: When we control the aggregation priorities the web will move beyond trends and friends and into something much greater. . .perhaps something predictive and creative

[2012/01/24 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Predictive and creative?

[2012/01/24 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aren’t those antonyms somehow?

[2012/01/24 16:10]  William Hawksby: i dopnt know what an aggregation priority is ei9ther

[2012/01/24 16:10]  Amandeep Timeless: “Little Brother” cell phone cams

[2012/01/24 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t know either….

[2012/01/24 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: If you define a mature tech as one that works much more than t fails..well the web has NEVER failed.

[2012/01/24 16:10]  LessWrong: I don’t think so. . .Right now you get what is trending and friending

[2012/01/24 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on “fail”

[2012/01/24 16:11]  William Hawksby: can it fail?

[2012/01/24 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Web as a whole… no, since it relies on the Internet, which is designed to “never fail” globally

[2012/01/24 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I think that tracking of teenagers is a good thing. HOw else are they going to figure a way around it? And with increased State spying on people, we all have to learn that

[2012/01/24 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But individual sites, sure

[2012/01/24 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: My computer might go down, and my ISP might go down but the Web keeps on runnikng.

[2012/01/24 16:11]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): they have in common, well nobody has anymore ideas left (or illusions!) regarding TV. The web on the other side, still shoes development

[2012/01/24 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They fail all the time

[2012/01/24 16:11]  LessWrong: The web is being muddled . . .dumbed down

[2012/01/24 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: TV has changed quite a bit actually, and still has a few changes coming.

[2012/01/24 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How so, Less?

[2012/01/24 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: how so, Lesswrong?

[2012/01/24 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds blinks at Less

[2012/01/24 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Me first! LOL

[2012/01/24 16:12]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): dumbed? well … some cozy places like Facebook

[2012/01/24 16:12]  William Hawksby: they figured in the 1920s that everything had been invented

[2012/01/24 16:12]  LessWrong: Centralized predictive seraching based upon association

[2012/01/24 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: FB is not dumb.

[2012/01/24 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Simple-to-use websites like Facebook have existed since at least 1996 with the launch of FriendFinder…

[2012/01/24 16:12]  LessWrong: Google used to sumarize it as “you are what you search”

[2012/01/24 16:12]  Thriller Dancer: Say ‘on’ or ‘off’to turn me on or off, or ‘help’ for more commands

[2012/01/24 16:12]  Lem Skall: actually I think that web maturity depends more on the unification of regulations across the world

[2012/01/24 16:12]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): i’m not sure the web is being dumbed down, so much as there is greater access now

[2012/01/24 16:12]  Amandeep Timeless: distilled bells and whistles, and most faults filtered away

[2012/01/24 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I fear corporations spying on us more than government…. who are, by definition, incompetent

[2012/01/24 16:13]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): actually we think of “the web” as beeing … the very same, everywhere. Inside China, too?

[2012/01/24 16:13]  William Hawksby: ive always gffound facebook to be about as interesting as AOL Chaqt was in 96

[2012/01/24 16:13]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): More people are participating hence there is greater diversity and scale

[2012/01/24 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t understand why Less thinks the Web is “dumbed down”, really

[2012/01/24 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: back

[2012/01/24 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, either way, I think it’s a good thing that a whole generation will have to figure out how to ditch the spies.

[2012/01/24 16:13]  LessWrong: By “dumb down,” I mean designed to return results consistent with our biases as expressed in the meta data we use to search

[2012/01/24 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Is there anything apart from regulations and reliable tech that define the ‘mature’ web?

[2012/01/24 16:13]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): yes@aph

[2012/01/24 16:13]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): you should read some of the scholarly stuff…

[2012/01/24 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Less: you’re talking about Google searches?

[2012/01/24 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, Less that is a new disturbing trend

[2012/01/24 16:14]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Aph smile sa t Vashta

[2012/01/24 16:14]  William Hawksby: well- google charges for good placement dont they?

[2012/01/24 16:14]  William Hawksby: how accurate can that be?

[2012/01/24 16:14]  LessWrong: i am talking about consumer based searching, roughly trends and friends

[2012/01/24 16:14]  Lem Skall: Extie, what about general access to the web, the vast majority of the world population still doesn’t have access to the web

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: I have already been thwarted by that in things I’m looking for.

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: But I want Google to be biased to my preferences. Life is too short by many ordrs of magnitude to spend time on all of the web.

[2012/01/24 16:15]  William Hawksby: or phones

[2012/01/24 16:15]  LessWrong: Pew has good research on the polarization

[2012/01/24 16:15]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): I’m more fearing about the “thumb down” approach inside countries that can’t hold up with our standards

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Amandeep Timeless: search engine “insipid algorithms”

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So by “dumbed down,” you mean search engines that reflect what people actually want to know, Less?

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. Let me see if I understand you, Less. So you’re saying is that people rely upon their friends to look for content, and since one’s friends are dumb, globally the Web is getting dumber?

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Perhaps the more you input into google the more your preferences will be met

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): pew has the best research out there regarding web use

[2012/01/24 16:15]  William Hawksby: maybe those people who dont have access to0 the web dont need it

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: yes they do.

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aph: that’s certainly the case if you are logged in to Google and/or use consistently the same computer + web browser.

[2012/01/24 16:15]  William Hawksby: is a Kazakh farmer going to order from amazon?

[2012/01/24 16:15]  LessWrong: No, Gwyn. . . searching harmonizes what is popular

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Lem Skall: what does my search say if I don’t have any friends?

[2012/01/24 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: Dumbed down, means that your results will be filtered through your previously searched prejudices.

[2012/01/24 16:16]  LessWrong: the results are much narrower than the vast sea of information

[2012/01/24 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: AH!

[2012/01/24 16:16]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): perhaps the term “dumb” is offensive. let’s say … “less surprising” if you roam inside your cozy filtered recognition sphere

[2012/01/24 16:16]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): which doesn’t seem dumbed down to me at all

[2012/01/24 16:16]  Lem Skall: everyone needs access to the web

[2012/01/24 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that’s simple, do NOT use Google and their algorithms.

[2012/01/24 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: right, Lem

[2012/01/24 16:16]  William Hawksby: or agree to their version of relevance

[2012/01/24 16:16]  William Hawksby: isnt that the i9nhtermediary you wanted?

[2012/01/24 16:16]  Lem Skall: the web is a unifier, it’s like saying that people don’t need unification

[2012/01/24 16:17]  Amandeep Timeless: search engine “herd minding”

[2012/01/24 16:17]  William Hawksby: someo0ne to separate all the chaff from the infpo relevant to oyu?

[2012/01/24 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: Example of dumbing down. Say you read right wing blogs a lot and search for ‘economics’. You will get mostly searches of right wing political opinions of economics.

[2012/01/24 16:17]  LessWrong: My argument was the next generation of searching will do self-aggregation (I suspected) based upon what we tune for

[2012/01/24 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: But Google always find what I m searching for, so why should I notuse their service?

[2012/01/24 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So some years ago, we craved for “intelligent agents” to get us *exactly* the information we wanted from the Web. Now Google is giving us exactly that, and we think that teh Web is being “dumbed down”?

[2012/01/24 16:17]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): i would tend to agree, if social networking hadn’t become such a huge driving force

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The more intelligent the agents are, the more dumbed down is the Web.

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Amandeep Timeless: if we look up “lemming”, we mostly get “cliff”

[2012/01/24 16:18]  LessWrong: In other words, the ubiquity will shift from friends and trends to something more

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: We want accurate searches, not searches that appeal to our prejudices…..

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What would an “accurate” search be?

[2012/01/24 16:18]  William Hawksby: dumbed down seems l;ike such an e3litist perspective

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, you assume we DON’T want to be dumbed down but we do, we are lazy

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Aph grins at Amandeep

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: I was going to say something like that if I hadn’t crashed, Gwyn.

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): since when has information-seeking been laissez faire?

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not assuming, Lem! I *am* lazy SO hooray for a Google that gives me what I want! hehe

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: But we define accuracy as ‘that which fits my prejidice’:)

[2012/01/24 16:18]  William Hawksby: lots of people find the searches by Google very helpfu- does that make them dumb?l?.

[2012/01/24 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, how to you devise a test for “accuracy”?

[2012/01/24 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And YES, Extie, exactly!

[2012/01/24 16:19]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): information seeking is almost always purposive

[2012/01/24 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: Much of the dumbing down right now is focused on regionalism. Searches result in regional results in an era of greater globalization.

[2012/01/24 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Of course we ike to belive it is everybody else who is prejudiced..but no.

[2012/01/24 16:20]  Aph (aphrodite.macbain): dubing down could also be read as attempting to become accessible

[2012/01/24 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I would define “maturity” for a search engine as “giving predictable results to my tastes”

[2012/01/24 16:20]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): no “opt out”. there should be a Google option for doing a search traditionally, without any glance at former search terms

[2012/01/24 16:20]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): so who is the thought police/sensors and what gets censored? Or judge the maturity of the individuals. http://www.banned-books.com/bblista-i.html what is blocked in what part’s/blocks of the web http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/24/occupy-blocked-in-china-j_n_1028863.html?ir=World

[2012/01/24 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I need to log; am Skyping a student in about 10 minutes

[2012/01/24 16:20]  LessWrong: Comfirmation bias is central to intellectual manipulation; I think there is a serious element of dumbing, yes

[2012/01/24 16:20]  Scarp Godenot: Many of those who are writing about this new trend refer to it as ‘keeping oneself in The Bubble” , that is the bubble of what you already know .

[2012/01/24 16:20]  LessWrong: Agreed, Scarp

[2012/01/24 16:20]  Lem Skall: cy Rhi

[2012/01/24 16:20]  Chraeloos: Bye Rhia

[2012/01/24 16:21]  LessWrong: And a very dangerous bubble it can be

[2012/01/24 16:21]  Amandeep Timeless: what if my prejudice is demonstrable numbers by which other can determine their own conclusions? we mght find ourselves in concurrence throu no preconceptions

[2012/01/24 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, bye Rhi!

[2012/01/24 16:21]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): sometimes, I just want to search like the other people. getting the results they will get, and not the ones for me

[2012/01/24 16:21]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): or my taste

[2012/01/24 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm

[2012/01/24 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Making somebody sort through a zillion blue links to find what they want is “smart” how?

[2012/01/24 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is where philosophy and politics meet consumer demand

[2012/01/24 16:22]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): i believe that people who choose to stay in the bubble, will probably do that anyway

[2012/01/24 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: This is where cynical corporate mentality meets information.

[2012/01/24 16:22]  William Hawksby: bye all – RL calls

[2012/01/24 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. like TV, which only shows programmes tailored for the lkeast common denominator — sex, violence, sneaking into other people’s lives

[2012/01/24 16:22]  Lem Skall: I for one, I want to get only straight porn when I look for porn

[2012/01/24 16:22]  Chraeloos: bye William

[2012/01/24 16:22]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): hahaha

[2012/01/24 16:22]  LessWrong: My point, Gwyn. . .if the web just evolves along the line of the order taker in a dis-information game, it will eventually have marginal utility

[2012/01/24 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Wikipedia has button for a random page. It is sometimesfun to use that and read about whatever comes up. Maye Goglecould have a random search that is not biased by your filter in any way?

[2012/01/24 16:22]  Amandeep Timeless: be a bubble burster!!!!

[2012/01/24 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, but what you get Lem is girls that want to have sex with you in your town!

[2012/01/24 16:23]  Lem Skall: oh, Scarp, someone who knows ;P

[2012/01/24 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: haha

[2012/01/24 16:23]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): LOL

[2012/01/24 16:23]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): people who prefere the Bubble … are free to do so, I don’t mind. Pity, perhaps

[2012/01/24 16:23]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): lol

[2012/01/24 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Google has the “I’m Feeling Lucky” button!

[2012/01/24 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: I know ‘most’ people know…. heh

[2012/01/24 16:23]  LessWrong: luh when people rely more and more on the web for news, it is pretty scary

[2012/01/24 16:23]  Chraeloos: it takes you to the first page though, which is usually wikipedia?

[2012/01/24 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes but that just gives ou th top search from your filtered selection.

[2012/01/24 16:24]  LessWrong: espeically when the weather says “sunny” 24×7

[2012/01/24 16:24]  Chraeloos: Right, Extie

[2012/01/24 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Google has the “I’m feeling lucky” button….

[2012/01/24 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: dang sorry Zo

[2012/01/24 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: wow, google is acting weird now

[2012/01/24 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s the new privacy policy!

[2012/01/24 16:25]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): whomever recommended Aurasma: damn you. i’ll never get anything done, now…lol

[2012/01/24 16:25]  Amandeep Timeless: the best stuff is around page 10 or later

[2012/01/24 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Vashta

[2012/01/24 16:25]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): been playing with it the whole time

[2012/01/24 16:25]  Lem Skall: I did one aura too

[2012/01/24 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the random searcj woul be like search engines in the old days when ‘Cure Cancer’ would bring up something from a person who likes the 80s pop group The Cure and whose starsign is cancer. I think we would soon want the filtered, personlised search back.

[2012/01/24 16:25]  Lem Skall: interesting but I won’t be addicted to that

[2012/01/24 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I agree with you, Less. At some point, we embraced the Web to get us information we couldn’t get from TV, newspapers, etc. Now it seems to be the other way round: too much noise, no information on the Web

[2012/01/24 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: I wish the search engine had a button to say. Global search, no preferences referred to….

[2012/01/24 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, Extie… I want search to be *better* at figuring out what I’m looking for.

[2012/01/24 16:26]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): its about choice. freedom of choice

[2012/01/24 16:26]  LessWrong: Randomization is not the antidote to what I am proposing; in my vision you could customize the data that is aggregated

[2012/01/24 16:26]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): you want both options

[2012/01/24 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo & Extie: what Google is providing now was what we hoped for in the late 1990s with “intelligent agents”

[2012/01/24 16:26]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): @scarp- how would they organize the info, then? what parameters would need to be in place to prevent random non-info

[2012/01/24 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: Nobody hoped for this type of targeted marketing.

[2012/01/24 16:27]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): Ai blundered

[2012/01/24 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course, I think the MAIN irritant with Google is trying to find some sort of review or opinion about a product instead of 5000 pages that are trying to sell it to me.

[2012/01/24 16:27]  Lem Skall: maybe some day you may choose to get the search results of someone else, maybe templates or based on friends or famous people

[2012/01/24 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: I want predictive searching. Google knows I am stuck for information and provides what Ineed before I am even conscious of needing it.

[2012/01/24 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: It would make quiz shows a bit boring.

[2012/01/24 16:27]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): oh rite, whatever you are searching for … there is a place where to buy just that

[2012/01/24 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: I DON’T want predictive searching. I want to have searching that refers ONLY to my search parameters.

[2012/01/24 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They ALMOSt do that now., Extie… you type a few letters, Google will guess the rest of your query

[2012/01/24 16:28]  LessWrong: Agreed Extropia. . .I have been advocating predictive here but not homogenized

[2012/01/24 16:28]  Amandeep Timeless: Less….see and adjust your metadata ‘scorecard’?

[2012/01/24 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma points –> http://www.randomwebsite.com/

[2012/01/24 16:28]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): by no homogenized, then notorganized by popularity?

[2012/01/24 16:28]  LessWrong: Perhaps weightings would be the best @Aman

[2012/01/24 16:28]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): scorecard disclosure as a new form of blackmail

[2012/01/24 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: OK scarp but say you were doing some art in Sl and instead of having to move the mouse or type a hotkey, SL just brings up whetever you need as soon as you need it?

[2012/01/24 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: there is a problem there. What if your search parameters are not ‘good’ enough for the kind of search you wish to do? I mean, see Extie’s example about trying to search for “Cure to cancer”, a decade ago… and we just had 1% (or was it 0.1%?) of gthe online information we have today….

[2012/01/24 16:29]  LessWrong: if the source of the popularity is an ad sale in a micro information market, I’ll pass

[2012/01/24 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: I am politically liberal, but I DON”T WANT to only hear echo chamber ideas in my searches. This is what is happening now. And it is polarizing the culture badly.

[2012/01/24 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stop using Google

[2012/01/24 16:29]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): no, change Google

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: Bing and Yahoo are both doing the same thing Gwyn

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: Holy cats, I think I’m in love with that random website thing!

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): i wouldn’t blame that on google

[2012/01/24 16:30]  LessWrong: @ Scarp. Yes. . . without a disclaimer.

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, create your own search engine… lol

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): (the partisan thing- not the ads)

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: there are plenty in Russia too

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: yes, live under a rock, that is the solution!

[2012/01/24 16:30]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): a decentralized one, of course

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: On my second click I got “http://crashandburncartel.com/” Talk about a mystery…

[2012/01/24 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Google does what t is supposed to do. Maybe the fault is with ourselves? We balkanised the web, not Google.

[2012/01/24 16:30]  LessWrong: I see that as the next generation of the web. . . the gist of this discussion

[2012/01/24 16:31]  LessWrong: that is the essence of the meta data evolution

[2012/01/24 16:31]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): lol@ ‘balkanised’

[2012/01/24 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think not. I find it very hard to launch a model that does NOT personalise searches

[2012/01/24 16:31]  Scarp Godenot: Google is doing what they are doing in order to maximize their profits. Is that what they are ‘supposed’ to do/

[2012/01/24 16:31]  Scarp Godenot: ?

[2012/01/24 16:31]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): luh snatches away that random danger thingy from Zob before she lands somewhere … anywhere

[2012/01/24 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: well my time is almost up. Any last comments?

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How do you manage a search engine with half a million servers for free?

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Vashta Nerada (aeon.static): i’d blame cable news tv for the balkanisation

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: Nobody said free, did they?

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: They have a fiduciary responsibility!

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: We just want accuracy.

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, as soon as you+re selling ads, you will do personalised searches….

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: We don’t want ‘cooked’ results.

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: One might wonder whether the govt should operate some internet services.

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Lem Skall: we want regulation

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But “accuracy” is a subjective experience.

[2012/01/24 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!

[2012/01/17 15:33]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Thinkers!

[2012/01/17 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is…

[2012/01/17 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: WILL WORK FOR FREE: People generally expect to be paid for the work they do. An exception to this rule is MMORPGs and online worlds, where most people either work for nothing, or actually pay the company for the opportunity to toil away in their virtual world. How did this turn of events come about?

[2012/01/17 15:34]  Lem Skall: not mmorpg’s in general, anything other than SL?

[2012/01/17 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t really see how work is done for free in MMORPGs

[2012/01/17 15:34]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i think it’s origins are in quests from adventure games

[2012/01/17 15:34]  Morgaine Dinova: Is the topic just the last question, about history? Or the whole analysis?

[2012/01/17 15:34]  DoctorPartridge Allen: think of how most early mmorpg’s followed rpgs – which needed virtual economies

[2012/01/17 15:34]  Lem Skall: as for how that came about in SL, it’s like boiling a frog

[2012/01/17 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: what do you mean, Lem?

[2012/01/17 15:35]  Morgaine Dinova: Wow Ari, that looked an uncomfortabl;e position

[2012/01/17 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: most early mmorpgs did not follow rpgs, they followed MUDs

[2012/01/17 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: welcome, sis!

[2012/01/17 15:35]  Lem Skall: I mean gradually, put it in cold water and heat it gradually, people won’t even notice

[2012/01/17 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Morgie, the whole analysis.

[2012/01/17 15:36]  Lem Skall: we first got hooked with absolute freedom and then that got cut down little by little

[2012/01/17 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: how was your freedom in SL hindered over time Lem?

[2012/01/17 15:36]  Morgaine Dinova: I think the question needs to examine “work” first. Is it work that is done in MMOs? What does it mean for something to be “work”?

[2012/01/17 15:36]  DoctorPartridge Allen: idk, in sl the early notions of ‘work’ were a factor of camping and traffic weren’t they?

[2012/01/17 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure I accept the premise. What “work” are people doing for free in games?

[2012/01/17 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: I’d like to know that as well

[2012/01/17 15:37]  Lem Skall: Ivy, not my freedom, freedom in general, rules were introduced where there were none before

[2012/01/17 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: well, how do those rules hinder freedom *in general*? :p

[2012/01/17 15:37]  Lem Skall: no gambling, no ageplay

[2012/01/17 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Well in WOW there is a lot of manegerial work to be done organizing guilds and such. And there is grinding which is as dull as any assembly line job you care to mention.

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: gambling was enforced by the RL law

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: so is ageplay to my best knowledge

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Lem Skall: pfft, doesn’t matter WHY

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: The gambling ban is ending this year.

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Lem Skall: it was

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Morgaine Dinova: I think the noun “work” exists in a word space that is too small for the digital era, and is missing some nuances.

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Lem Skall: Khan, dream on

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Which means I expect to see slot machines around Thinkers soon.

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: none of that work is done for free, people who manage guilds and raids and what not do it for tangible benefits in game

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: One study showed that every kind of job type has some kind og equivilent in most RPGs.

[2012/01/17 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: epic lootz!

[2012/01/17 15:38]  DoctorPartridge Allen: many mmo’s use ‘jobs’ that way ext

[2012/01/17 15:39]  Morgaine Dinova: CAN I HAVE UR SWORD?

[2012/01/17 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jul/30/online-gambling-united-states

[2012/01/17 15:39]  DoctorPartridge Allen: for example Morgaine? how is the word too small?

[2012/01/17 15:40]  Lem Skall: maybe what Extie stated is an exaggeration but SL was created by crowdsourcing with the promise of “your world, your imagination” and now it is LL’s world

[2012/01/17 15:40]  Fblurbg: One might even back up and ask why people do “work” that they’re not getting paid for IRL. Knitting, gardening, stuff like that. Obviously because they believe they get *something* out of it, even if it’s not money. The same must hold true in virtual worlds.

[2012/01/17 15:40]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): There’s also Amazon’s Mechanical Turk.

[2012/01/17 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: Diablo 3 is introducing real money auction house, so you will be able to actually do “labor” and earn money in game

[2012/01/17 15:41]  DoctorPartridge Allen: you could argue that in sl even merchants are working for free – few merchants make profits – kind of a blockbuster biz paradigm

[2012/01/17 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve a simpler example of work being done for free – Linux and Open Source in general

[2012/01/17 15:41]  Lem Skall: so there was no “payment” but there was an expectation of reward that was not fulfilled

[2012/01/17 15:41]  Morgaine Dinova: Doc: “work” carries with it the baggage of “work” in RL, which has traditionally been a method of earning money to survive. MMOs and virtual worlds in general have different dynamics, so the RL meaning of “work” doesn’t apply very well to in-world activivites.

[2012/01/17 15:42]  Morgaine Dinova: Really deserves different words, with more nuances to capture what is really going on.

[2012/01/17 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: but wherin is the crucial differences, Morg? Why is it that people happily grind away in MMORPGs but would not dream of doing anything so dull in RL unless paid to do so?

[2012/01/17 15:43]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Morgaine – you’re on to something – the real capital in an MMO is social capital in most cases isn’t it?

[2012/01/17 15:43]  Lem Skall: whatever you call it, work or otherwise, LL profits from it

[2012/01/17 15:43]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Done for “free” is an iffy thing – as not all payment is in cash per se. Reputation, good will, etc.

[2012/01/17 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: Morgaine: I suggest we call the thing you do to survive “job”, and the thing you do for other reasons (benefits or not) “work”

[2012/01/17 15:43]  Morgaine Dinova: Just like for us, there are just 1 or 2 different words for “snow”, whereas allegedly an Eskimo has a ton of different words for it.

[2012/01/17 15:43]  Jamie Marlin: I don’t get how SL is any ‘more’ Linden Lab’s than it was at the beginning, Lem – what brought me here was the opportunity to make cool stuff and play.. I never expected anything out of it

[2012/01/17 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve been active on MUCKs that were *truly* cooperative, creative environments — without money or DRM. So I know that kind of thing can work on a small scale. That nobody’s even trying it in a SL-like environment irks me.

[2012/01/17 15:43]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Lem, shouldn’t a biz profit from a product?

[2012/01/17 15:43]  Merit Coba: Oh eh uhm

[2012/01/17 15:43]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Actually, Zobeid – have you looked at the OpenSIM grids?

[2012/01/17 15:44]  Merit Coba: Hedla

[2012/01/17 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Eh? What about OpenSim? I’ve looked at some grids, they all seemed to work basically just like SL.

[2012/01/17 15:44]  Lem Skall: Jamie, true for you but I don’t think it was for many people

[2012/01/17 15:44]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Morgaine – good point re snow, perhaps redefinition makes good sensse given context

[2012/01/17 15:44]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Some do, some don’t.

[2012/01/17 15:44]  Jamie Marlin: I would go further – I WANT LL to profit, so that they will have a reason to keep SL alive.

[2012/01/17 15:45]  Lem Skall: Doc, yes but normally it should be done with a clear contract with conditions that don’t change

[2012/01/17 15:45]  Morgaine Dinova: Zob: Yes, the designers of Opensim swallowed the Linden constraints lock stock and barrel, sadly.

[2012/01/17 15:45]  Jamie Marlin: Do you think most people came here looking for profit, Lem? As in, a way to make RL money?

[2012/01/17 15:45]  Lem Skall: Jamie, agreed, but LL kept changing the conditions of the contract

[2012/01/17 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: I wonder how hard it would be to fork OpenSim and strip that stuff out?

[2012/01/17 15:45]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Jamie – i suspect that dropping the walls is their best hope – but it would take insane courage at this point.

[2012/01/17 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: I actually know guys who wanted to do that Jamie, but they didn’t undestand SL to actually make any money

[2012/01/17 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Seren

[2012/01/17 15:46]  Lem Skall: Jamie, not necessarily for money, although many did expect that, but many people did it with the expectation that they will “own the world”

[2012/01/17 15:46]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): waiting for rezz on slow line. Hey all.

[2012/01/17 15:46]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): that sounds like what inworldz was trying to do in a way. Lower cost and keep a good scalability

[2012/01/17 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Really? Seren is here?

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey, she is!

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Arisia Vita: a red letter day for you Exti

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Well, hey, Seren!

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Merit Coba: Oh wow. excuse me…

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: so says radar!

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Merit Coba: Bows to the celebrity

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: My two favourite people are here!

[2012/01/17 15:47]  DoctorPartridge Allen: prob with the open grids is they have little audience and little pre-built data, it’s a leap back in time to 2004

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Lem Skall: aw, ty, Extie

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): hey love

[2012/01/17 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey love..

[2012/01/17 15:48]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Indeed – network effects.

[2012/01/17 15:48]  Merit Coba: have a nice day gazing at the sun

[2012/01/17 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: HmmGMMbmmblll

[2012/01/17 15:48]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Part of the draw for WoW – all your friends are there, so that’s where you go.

[2012/01/17 15:48]  Morgaine Dinova: When an activity in-world results in money being earned, then it’s easier to see Extie’s question as being an extension of the situation in RL. I wonder if there is more to it that that though. Many people like to “work” even when there is no money involved. I’m not sure I really understand the issue, but I think it’s deeper than about “earning”.

[2012/01/17 15:49]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @tara – same applies wherever u go. dull to build in an empty world

[2012/01/17 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Jamie would you still work in Sl if you got no Lnden dollars for your efforts? Say, whatver you make anyone can have, just as you can have anything others have made?

[2012/01/17 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, this is not my night.

[2012/01/17 15:49]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): Seren steals time from work games..

[2012/01/17 15:49]  Sophiekittycat: most people work in sl for no monney , builders in historical sims, art galleries, moderators, we work for the pleasure to build something , to create

[2012/01/17 15:49]  Jamie Marlin: Extropia-yes I would. As far as I am concerned, L& is just a way for someone to say they like my work

[2012/01/17 15:50]  Lem Skall: I’m still saying that many people “worked” not for money but for “your world, your imagination” and that was taken away

[2012/01/17 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: A got a stupid spammy phone call, came back to find Firestorm crashed, and then somebody had taken my seat!

[2012/01/17 15:50]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Ext – i suspect many developers would do it for free – or for a non monetary form of social currency

[2012/01/17 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: I thought you moved for Seren, Zo.

[2012/01/17 15:50]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): well. it depends. some things, most things, I do in SL just becuse I enjoy doing them. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be delighted to receive money among other values from doing some of them.

[2012/01/17 15:51]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Indeed, Lem – “It all starts with a box.” One of my objections to sculpties & meshes.

[2012/01/17 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: the actual work that’s done for free in SL are the third party viewers

[2012/01/17 15:51]  DoctorPartridge Allen: say for example there was a social valuation system to give credit *fame* to people whose work was heavily consumed

[2012/01/17 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: :p

[2012/01/17 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ll just stay over here in the spottycat section.

[2012/01/17 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree. I believe the majority of residents would still work on their projects and stuff even without the reward of linden doillars.

[2012/01/17 15:51]  Morgaine Dinova: Haha Zob

[2012/01/17 15:51]  DoctorPartridge Allen: also – if everything is for fun, you lose some ‘responsibility’ motives

[2012/01/17 15:51]  Sophiekittycat: i disagree miss ivy, look at thoses doing great sims, the moderators, the builders , theses ^people who work together to create something for free

[2012/01/17 15:51]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): money being a lot more fungible and exchangeable for other things in and out of world than say reputation.

[2012/01/17 15:52]  DoctorPartridge Allen: if i build a gadget and sell 10k, then it breaks on a linden upddate

[2012/01/17 15:52]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i’m obliged to fix based on revenue gained

[2012/01/17 15:52]  Lem Skall: pfft, reputation, how do you measure that?

[2012/01/17 15:52]  DoctorPartridge Allen: amd i obliged if it’s just reputation?

[2012/01/17 15:52]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): depends on the update. Could say the same for making a web app and being at mercy of browsers.

[2012/01/17 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: sell it from an alt and make a run with the money when shit breaks!

[2012/01/17 15:52]  DoctorPartridge Allen: social networks like twitter measure reputation based mostly on popularity

[2012/01/17 15:52]  Jamie Marlin: I do appreciate when someone buys something, though… it means that they se value in something I made, which is a nice compliment

[2012/01/17 15:53]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): the best type of work is the work you love to do and money in the same line of interest is always a plus

[2012/01/17 15:53]  DoctorPartridge Allen: which is of course problematic lem

[2012/01/17 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: though generally LL is doing a rather fine job at keeping stuff backwards compatible

[2012/01/17 15:53]  Lem Skall: reputation and popularity are not the same

[2012/01/17 15:53]  DoctorPartridge Allen: but how about forum models -where reputation is given from others based on your action / interaction

[2012/01/17 15:54]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @ivy – agree, i’ve had more trouble porting to OS than i ever had with LL changes

[2012/01/17 15:54]  DoctorPartridge Allen: OS = Open Sim

[2012/01/17 15:54]  Jamie Marlin: LL tried something like that in the early days, allowing you to ‘rate’ other people. It never caught on

[2012/01/17 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: and rightfully so

[2012/01/17 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: rating people is crap

[2012/01/17 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: That rating system lasted quite a while actually.

[2012/01/17 15:54]  Morgaine Dinova: SL is a bad example to examine I think, because profits in L$ are exchangeable for US$, so activity here is quite strongly related to work in RL, and it’s easier to see it as “work” and hence deserving remuneration because of this. But in a world where there is no cash, the question becomes more interesting.

[2012/01/17 15:54]  Sophiekittycat: rating other people is always so superficial

[2012/01/17 15:55]  Lem Skall: Ivy, then so is reputation crap

[2012/01/17 15:55]  Sophiekittycat: and yes popularity is not reputation

[2012/01/17 15:55]  Jamie Marlin: It was never really used, though, in my experience

[2012/01/17 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: I know people who had ratings worth tens of thousands of Linden$

[2012/01/17 15:55]  DoctorPartridge Allen: Why is that Ivy

[2012/01/17 15:55]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): exchange to real world currency is a good thing though

[2012/01/17 15:55]  DoctorPartridge Allen: couldn’t a similar system be used to help with the maturity ratings issues?

[2012/01/17 15:55]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): all commercial grids have this characteristic

[2012/01/17 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s why: http://xkcd.com/937/

[2012/01/17 15:56]  Morgaine Dinova: It’s only a good thing for augmentalists, unwilling to accept isolation between their virtual worlds

[2012/01/17 15:56]  DoctorPartridge Allen: Anyone here on Deviant Art?

[2012/01/17 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: It was abused, Jamie. People used to make up groups just so lots could get together and rate each other highly. Used to be, if you got positive rating that week your weekly stipend got a rise.

[2012/01/17 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: I am sorta kinda.

[2012/01/17 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: I lurve DA!

[2012/01/17 15:56]  DoctorPartridge Allen: seems to me rating works fairly well in that network.

[2012/01/17 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: in DA you can only really be rated up

[2012/01/17 15:56]  Lem Skall: an alt of my primary is on deviant art

[2012/01/17 15:57]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): yes I know about Deviant Art. A good chunk of Mass Effect was contracted threw there

[2012/01/17 15:57]  DoctorPartridge Allen: maybe there’s a paradigm there

[2012/01/17 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Luh!

[2012/01/17 15:57]  Sophiekittycat: Da is a great site and mass effect is a wonderfull game

[2012/01/17 15:57]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): *wavies*!!

[2012/01/17 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: DA has ratings?

[2012/01/17 15:57]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): One cure for rewarding creators based on how much their creations are vauled by others is to monitor how much usage/views/plays a creation gets and divide some pool of funds or assign worth some way based on that.

[2012/01/17 15:57]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @dust walker, can you elaborate

[2012/01/17 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: I am on Deviant art, Let me show you all.

[2012/01/17 15:58]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @zobeid – indirectly – you can favorite and such

[2012/01/17 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Don’t look, everyone! It’s a trap!

[2012/01/17 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: also, DA does not rate people for being nice or assholes, it’s “just” art

[2012/01/17 15:58]  DoctorPartridge Allen: smiles and wonders where we’re looking / not looking

[2012/01/17 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: and if you want to rate content creators in SL – that’s already there on the marketplace

[2012/01/17 15:58]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @ivy – valid points – both

[2012/01/17 15:58]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): at the end of the day it is how valuable you and your stuff are judged to be by others..

[2012/01/17 15:59]  Morgaine Dinova: Asshole Rating [0 .. 10]

[2012/01/17 15:59]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Deviant art has artist that you can commision for things and some of the Mass Effect stuff was done threw there after they submitted to the section’s and they have hired for other games also for art from deviant art

[2012/01/17 15:59]  DoctorPartridge Allen: that valuation seems to work better on marketplace than in world

[2012/01/17 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: so to what extent does rating explain the willingness to work in MMORPGs/ online worlds?

[2012/01/17 15:59]  Sophiekittycat: lol rating is as contest , it is all on friends who will rate at max because they like you even if it is crap

[2012/01/17 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu:

[2012/01/17 15:59]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): how is the marketplace valuation done exactly? by reviews or what?

[2012/01/17 15:59]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i think at least some willingness to work is about ‘belonging’

[2012/01/17 15:59]  DoctorPartridge Allen: you join a guild

[2012/01/17 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t think we do any more work in virtual worlds for free than we do outside of it

[2012/01/17 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Ok! rating people is now officially dead. Next topic.

[2012/01/17 15:59]  DoctorPartridge Allen: you work for a bar or dance club

[2012/01/17 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: We all have our little hobbies.

[2012/01/17 16:00]  Lem Skall: Sophie but then that matters how many friends you have

[2012/01/17 16:00]  DoctorPartridge Allen: you work with a guild of builders

[2012/01/17 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo interesting. Can you elaborate, Doctorpartiridge?

[2012/01/17 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s in human nature to work for free, be it in SL, WoW, or just collaborating to some open source project

[2012/01/17 16:00]  Sophiekittycat: the desire to work in online worlds is because here we not work for money but we work because we can create we can fullfill our dream and desires ,we can be part of a community not part of a machine

[2012/01/17 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: SL being SL has nothing to do with that

[2012/01/17 16:00]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i used to be suprised and confused when people would im me and want to join my building guild

[2012/01/17 16:00]  DoctorPartridge Allen: to me it was a solo affair

[2012/01/17 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: I saw where somebody filled a whole room with a Lego city. $200,000 worth of Legos. So it’s not unique to virtual worlds.

[2012/01/17 16:01]  Sophiekittycat: it is collaboration it is creation it is art it is community

[2012/01/17 16:01]  DoctorPartridge Allen: but many of the really great stuff is built by guilds, groups of people

[2012/01/17 16:01]  Jamie Marlin: Isn’t rating an example of ‘working for no monetary reward’? How is that off topic?

[2012/01/17 16:01]  DoctorPartridge Allen: same thing with great dance spots, music venues

[2012/01/17 16:01]  DoctorPartridge Allen: they’re all run by groups

[2012/01/17 16:01]  Sophiekittycat: working in rl is a pain and we need to do it with no choice, in sl we choose what we want to do and it give us fun

[2012/01/17 16:01]  DoctorPartridge Allen: no individual can do all the work -

[2012/01/17 16:01]  Sophiekittycat: the main world is fun the second is dream

[2012/01/17 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Kk FOR NEXT HALF HOUR…CAN RL WORK LEARN FROM MMORPGS/ONLINE WORLDS AND MAKE JOBS FUN ENOUGH THAT EMPLOYEES WOULD WORK FOR FREE?

[2012/01/17 16:02]  DoctorPartridge Allen: agree with sofi – we do it for fun, for social connections

[2012/01/17 16:02]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): for some maybe

[2012/01/17 16:02]  DoctorPartridge Allen: lol – not unless food becomes free Exti

[2012/01/17 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, you still get paid, but you go because it is fun not just because your bills demand you go get a job.

[2012/01/17 16:02]  Jamie Marlin: Extropia? Yes – provided that someone else is around to provide food and clothing and housing

[2012/01/17 16:03]  Sophiekittycat: extropia lol rl work is for food and paying bills, online work is for the pleasure and the feeling to create

[2012/01/17 16:03]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): RL would require group collaborative tools. not possible in all areas

[2012/01/17 16:03]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): Great question. Not sure. Mostly lame attempts to do so far. Would be great to hire the people that know what engages us in games to apply their knowledge to redesigning parts of RL workflow.

[2012/01/17 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: people don’t work in RL *just* for food and paying bills

[2012/01/17 16:03]  DoctorPartridge Allen: It’s a good point though – why aren’t rl jobs in general as appealing

[2012/01/17 16:03]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): I don’t understand enough of what that might look like to have much of an answer as to how much it could be done.

[2012/01/17 16:03]  Sophiekittycat: there is people working for free too in rl the voluntaries who work in associations, thoses helping homeless, working in shelters or with children

[2012/01/17 16:03]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): And yet – a Farmer may feel that there’s fun in a field of growing wheat.

[2012/01/17 16:03]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): If we can capture *that*…

[2012/01/17 16:04]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Then the food issue drops off the plate.

[2012/01/17 16:04]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): the ‘lol for food’ argument seems to be lended from classical capitalism

[2012/01/17 16:04]  Morgaine Dinova: One simple answer to the final question of the topic is “Interactive 3D worlds arose first in gaming, and since you play a game for enjoyment and not for remuneration, that view has persisted as 3D virtual worlds developed.” Ie. “Work? What work? You’re here to play!”

[2012/01/17 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes that is the question I want us to discuss. Howe come RL jobs are not as appealing as work in MMORPGS?

[2012/01/17 16:04]  Fblurbg: Work that’s compulsory, or rather, work you experience as compulsory, is generally less fun than things you do simply because you feel like it. Go figure.

[2012/01/17 16:04]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Often, Extropia, it’s because of time constraints and directions to do things in ways that don’t feel right.

[2012/01/17 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: So it is work cunningly disquised as play?

[2012/01/17 16:05]  Jamie Marlin: There is some places where fun work for nothing occurs in RL…. for example, I have had to explain to my sons why a career as a v’video game tester’ will probably not work out

[2012/01/17 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: the work in MMORPGs isn’t very appealing really Extie, people who do it get burned out and fast

[2012/01/17 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: because working with customers howling at you , or a slaver boss, or working at chain doing same gest over hours cant be fun

[2012/01/17 16:05]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): And yet, Jamie – there *are* people with exactly that career.

[2012/01/17 16:05]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i think lack of creative venues may contribute to the desire to work in virtual spaces.

[2012/01/17 16:05]  Doll (jo.soosung): in rl, often, people can’t do the job of their dreams because they are not qualified enough, luckly there are job they can do, which are not as nice

[2012/01/17 16:05]  Jamie Marlin: Yes, there are… but they have other sources of income, mostly.

[2012/01/17 16:05]  DoctorPartridge Allen: or is it fun cunningly disguised as work?

[2012/01/17 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: let me repeat it – the *work* that you do in MMORPGS is *NOT FUN*

[2012/01/17 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: Right now I have IRL just enough food to eat. Seriously, after an agency pays my rent and essential bills, what’s left is food – only. No clothes, no travel expenses, no going out. Food only. Worse, I am actually running a negative expense and losing savings and find myself not catching up in debt payments., I am listless and unmotivated and often anxious about the future. Nobody will hire me. I don’t see MMO’s in *ANY* sensible manner have any sensible effect on the existing established economies. Which as allready pretty much a contrivance and a scam to begin with.

[2012/01/17 16:06]  Lem Skall: in rl you chose to work on something that you can do well to make money, in mmorpg’s you work on what you like, not on what you do well

[2012/01/17 16:06]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: In SL, because the owner of a place that makes L$ revenue can turn that into US$, if he/she employs “workers” in the venue and doesn’t pay them then it is very much disguised labour. But that’s why I think SL is an abberrant example to address.

[2012/01/17 16:06]  Jamie Marlin: Ivy – but the reward you get from that work is fun.

[2012/01/17 16:06]  Sophiekittycat: Ivy when you do a work in an mmorpg as guild leader officer you do it becaus eyou like it

[2012/01/17 16:06]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): There’s a lot of cases where X has the job Y would dearly love to have and vice-versa. If we could find those, and arrange swaps…

[2012/01/17 16:06]  Doll (jo.soosung): lol

[2012/01/17 16:07]  Doll (jo.soosung): 5 million people want to be that one astronaught

[2012/01/17 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: Jamie: yes, but then you work for the reward, *not for free*. You can also buy cool stuff for money you make in your daily job, but an xbox won’t make your job any more cool.

[2012/01/17 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: I have recently *literally* prodtituted myself, at my age. That is, sexual favors for money. To eat. So seriously, this discussion IS a little bit white class privilege. It has very little bearing on like, “reality”.

[2012/01/17 16:07]  Sophiekittycat: astronaughty ?

[2012/01/17 16:07]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): almost tara and tweak them to have micro rewards or such to make it game like for the ones that want it. LOL

[2012/01/17 16:08]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): not really an astronaughty job, more astro-dangerous

[2012/01/17 16:08]  Sophiekittycat: who here was never part of a community work, doing something for free just for the pleasure to be part of a project .?

[2012/01/17 16:08]  Lem Skall: some of the stuff being said here is serious but I always wonder how seriously I should take it

[2012/01/17 16:08]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): raises twig

[2012/01/17 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: Me, last time I did community work, in the formal sense was 1995.

[2012/01/17 16:08]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): I’d advise always taking it seriously, Lem.

[2012/01/17 16:09]  Morgaine Dinova: Khannea: Maslow applies, as always. One needs the roof over one’s head and the food on the table before it is deemed as important to feed the spirit.

[2012/01/17 16:09]  Lem Skall: pfft, Tara, no way

[2012/01/17 16:09]  Doll (jo.soosung): most people work in rl to live, they don’t hate their jobs but they don’y love them. what the job does do is pay the bills

[2012/01/17 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can raise hand too, I don’t do anything that can be labeled as “work” in SL by principle.

[2012/01/17 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: Yep Morgaine. That’s why I can;t get around to focussing on anytjing the last year. I am too terrified by and large to do anything of consequence.

[2012/01/17 16:09]  Morgaine Dinova:

[2012/01/17 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: LET ALONE sl.

[2012/01/17 16:10]  Doll (jo.soosung): a better job (which ironically probably means more stress) pays for more stuff in non job time

[2012/01/17 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: though I did some community work in the past – and I did *not* do it in SL or WoW :p

[2012/01/17 16:10]  Morgaine Dinova: Morgaine Dinova gives Khannie a virtual cookie

[2012/01/17 16:10]  Sophiekittycat: i have been for months moderatrice on the frenc continent more than 20 sims; doing security helping noobs, creating shows, helping people, yes by moment it was a work but my god what a feeling to be part of such an huge project , to promote art and culture and fun

[2012/01/17 16:10]  Doll (jo.soosung): very unlike ‘jobs’ in sl

[2012/01/17 16:11]  Doll (jo.soosung): people choose to be in sl and get involved, in rl you have to work

[2012/01/17 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Sophie: yes, and people do that kind of stuff in the flesh world too

[2012/01/17 16:11]  Lem Skall: I didn’t know there was a French continent

[2012/01/17 16:11]  Sophiekittycat: work in online worlds is not seen as work but at participating to projects

[2012/01/17 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Again, isn’t all this the foibles of an extremely privileged and very technologically empowered (and hence fairly “safe) small segment of society?

[2012/01/17 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: Sophie: again, same can be said about the RL work that you do for free

[2012/01/17 16:12]  Sophiekittycat: lem we have some big french communities who became official hubs for several world countries

[2012/01/17 16:12]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Maybe. Khannea – and yet, you and I, in situations hardly “safe”, participate in it.

[2012/01/17 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: You’re al; french nobles just a year before the Guillotines discussing the merits of ‘riding in horses’ as meaningful work.

[2012/01/17 16:12]  Sophiekittycat: in sl most countries have their voluntary communities that became official hubs welcome beginners promote their country and culture

[2012/01/17 16:13]  Sophiekittycat: french nobles riding horse as job was meaning going to battle mainly and this is not fun too

[2012/01/17 16:13]  Lem Skall: oh battle is fun in mmorpg

[2012/01/17 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’m unaware of any polish hub, if there is one – please do NOT inform me about it, I don’t even want to see it

[2012/01/17 16:14]  Morgaine Dinova: Khannea: All Thinkers topics make the presumption that the people involved have the freedom to examine issues free of the need to find food an shelter. So I guess it’s true, thinking is for the priviledged, at least for an hour.

[2012/01/17 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: I bet arab elites in Camel racing isn’t even “fun” in the strictest sense. But it sure is privilege.

[2012/01/17 16:14]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Here is free for the society and from a good person and shows another non SLhttp://affordabletechnology.com.au/home.htm though the CS (counter strike ) people did there mod for free also at first

[2012/01/17 16:15]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): so you have virtual and non virtual free work being done all over

[2012/01/17 16:15]  Sophiekittycat: yes free work is what we do because we like it or because moraly we have to do it

[2012/01/17 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: I have shelter. I have food. Beyond that my chances of getting anything more are very sparse. As a consequence I find myself doing very little other than things traditionally very low on the Pyramid of Maslow. In my case, largely stuff related to keeping my epnefrine glands buzzing.

[2012/01/17 16:16]  Sophiekittycat: my partner in sl work rl as librarian and then after her work she work for free in a shelter for beaten and abused women

[2012/01/17 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: dust: yes, and it’s not exclusive to, or amplified in virtual worlds

[2012/01/17 16:16]  Sophiekittycat: working for money exist because food is a concept we cant ignore

[2012/01/17 16:18]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): for getting ‘free work done’ it’s probably better going back in technology than forward. as in ancient slavery

[2012/01/17 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: but lot of people act for free ( i dont call it work) because they like it because they think things need to be done

[2012/01/17 16:18]  Morgaine Dinova: Which is why I consider SL an abberrant case, since so many people work in this world as a means of earning RL income. It reduces the question to pure RL, at least as far as they are concerned.

[2012/01/17 16:18]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): now if you all had food water housing and energy to run your stuff .Would you not want to help in some action that grabs you or that interest’s you to see it threw, and or if it can be done in some cases.

[2012/01/17 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Sophie: you should call it “work”, the thing you do to earn a living is not “work”, it’s just a “job”

[2012/01/17 16:19]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): or share your art or some peice of work

[2012/01/17 16:19]  Sophiekittycat: Morgaine i dont really know people who earn enougth in sl to live in rl

[2012/01/17 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is a TEDx talk I can link where a guy explains a difference between the words

[2012/01/17 16:19]  Sophiekittycat: most money creators gain go to pay rents

[2012/01/17 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: What happens to minds when food and the very spartan basic necessities are met, but there is the constant looming threat from populist politics one might lose it. It seriously fucks with my creative ability. It has for the last year. Thats why I think people have been logging less hours in SL – many people out there are too scared to have any real fun, or vent any creative surplus in SL.

[2012/01/17 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: job is meaningless labor, work has direction

[2012/01/17 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: Job implies working for others. Work is more general.

[2012/01/17 16:20]  Jamie Marlin: Bye all – being called away by RL!

[2012/01/17 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: CVyu Jamie :-0

[2012/01/17 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Jamie

[2012/01/17 16:20]  Sophiekittycat: bye jamie

[2012/01/17 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: Go and work Jamie!

[2012/01/17 16:20]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Tc jamie

[2012/01/17 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: lol

[2012/01/17 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye sis!

[2012/01/17 16:20]  Sophiekittycat: ok i need to go for a moment , not paid work in sl call me

[2012/01/17 16:21]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): I have to run too. Boss just walked in. And he thought I was on FB.

[2012/01/17 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Seren

[2012/01/17 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: Ouch! Sacrilege!

[2012/01/17 16:21]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): *kisses Extropia and poofs*

[2012/01/17 16:21]  Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Seren

[2012/01/17 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: that facebook got some graphics update, eh?

[2012/01/17 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Now I am lonely

[2012/01/17 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: ah, better.

[2012/01/17 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: Looks like I got here just in time to leave.

[2012/01/17 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu gropes the insides ofg Trophy’s legs

[2012/01/17 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Nah you got ten minutes, Scarp.

[2012/01/17 16:22]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Please don’t mark me Zo. Hahaha had to joke

[2012/01/17 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: Just noticed multi poofing…

[2012/01/17 16:22]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Scarp

[2012/01/17 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: just people poofing to work

[2012/01/17 16:23]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): oh nice cat AVI morgaine

[2012/01/17 16:23]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): cartoon like

[2012/01/17 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey! … look zobi just territorially marked the inconspicuous Bush there.

[2012/01/17 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we can agree that people will be needing to work to earn money for necessities for the forseeable future. But can work learn from games to make jobs something fun to do?

[2012/01/17 16:24]  Morgaine Dinova: Work, job, passtime, occupation, hobby … the problem with all these terms is that they are so horribly tied to a single world. I don’t think we have the vocabulary to express what’s actually going on when we “work” in a world and that activity is not translatable into dollars.

[2012/01/17 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: no and it doesn’t need to. People will do work for free if they have time on their hands and means to do something interesting. If you didn’t have to do anything you would end up doing some work eventually just to kill the bloody time .

[2012/01/17 16:25]  Morgaine Dinova: Hehe

[2012/01/17 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: I have for some time predicted that very soon (and maybe allready) for a large segment of people in society (the people furthest removed from SL by and large) our currenteconomies will not generate enough money for them, for themost basdic of necessities, even if they expended the most extreme of personal sacrifices and efforts. In other words, economy “isn’t working anymore”.

[2012/01/17 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Can we make coal mining fun? (I hear the pay is great, by the way.)

[2012/01/17 16:26]  Lem Skall: Extie, I think that diversity is an important factor in games so you can change what you do every once in a while, but that may not be feasible in RL, you just do the same thing because that’s what is needed or it’s the only thing you’re good at

[2012/01/17 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: only if mines get invaded by zombies at night

[2012/01/17 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, what if kids raised on videogames expect jobs to be as fulfilling? Will companies that incorporate a game-like structure into the business have an advantage?

[2012/01/17 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: Great idea Zobi. Lots of senior citiizens without a job, that love the warmth down there in the coal mines.

[2012/01/17 16:26]  Morgaine Dinova: Zob: Thought experiment: Say a coal mine used equipment that is controlled by “workers” in a virtual world hitting a virtual coalface with virtual picks. Is it work?

[2012/01/17 16:27]  Morgaine Dinova: RL coal mine

[2012/01/17 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: then they end up being unemployed living on welfare, while polish immigrants come and do their jobs for half the price with a smile on their faces .

[2012/01/17 16:27]  Lem Skall: Ender’s Game: turns out it was real

[2012/01/17 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: We use Mexicans for that here, Ivy.

[2012/01/17 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: I think working for free for companies that aren’t charities came to be PRECISELY because cynical corporate executives could see that they could exploit the desire of people who wanted to perform certain jobs. Same idea with the so called ‘interns’ that many professions use now.

[2012/01/17 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: I’m aware

[2012/01/17 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Morg in Star Wars Galaxies there is a job in which you have to make medicine. What if, somehow, your efforts were helping actual new medicine to be researched and created?

[2012/01/17 16:28]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): we should think about automation regarding coal mines, before trying a gamyfication solution

[2012/01/17 16:28]  Lem Skall: Ivy, move to Poland then

[2012/01/17 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: I live in Poland, lol

[2012/01/17 16:29]  Lem Skall: what polish imigrants then?

[2012/01/17 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: the ones in UK

[2012/01/17 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Aha. Affluience causes economic invalidity, as a percentage of the work force falls into unemployability after 1-2 generations. They used to call that decadence? Me I am not so sure. Maybe in “non-decadent” places all those people simply died a while ago because of “natural” attrition. No gamer poles in poland, they all got put in Russian Gulags?

[2012/01/17 16:29]  Morgaine Dinova: I know one Polish word: kartofel

[2012/01/17 16:29]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): Extropia, yes companies that incorporate a game-like structure into the business strategy will have an advantage for sure

[2012/01/17 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: or anywhere else in EU

[2012/01/17 16:29]  Lem Skall: then emigrate to UK too

[2012/01/17 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t need to emigrate to UK, I don’t do unskilled labor

[2012/01/17 16:30]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): luh throws a Kartoffel at Morg’s general direction

[2012/01/17 16:30]  Morgaine Dinova: Morgaine Dinova ducks

[2012/01/17 16:30]  Lem Skall: then DO unskilled labor

[2012/01/17 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: why?

[2012/01/17 16:30]  Lem Skall: why not?

[2012/01/17 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: KK almost time up. so why DO people work for free or even pay for the priviledge to grind away in mmorpgs?

[2012/01/17 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Because some people would rather die than clean toilets?

[2012/01/17 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s a hobby! There have always been hobbies.

[2012/01/17 16:31]  Lem Skall: then die

[2012/01/17 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: the question was about people grown up on video games having expectations of their jobs beign fun

[2012/01/17 16:31]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): the rl and virtual worlds are melding – the companies who get on board will be able to not only pay workers for rl jobs but will also i’m sure get free work from employees doing the fun creative work in virtual worlds

[2012/01/17 16:31]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): must be some fun component, and surely implies an amount of luxury too

[2012/01/17 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: I said they will be umemployed living on welfare, immigrants doing their job is just a side story :p

[2012/01/17 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: They have an alternative Lem. /me shnows you a fucking Guillotine.

[2012/01/17 16:32]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: the closest I get to it is because they’re mentally in “game mode”. It’s entertainment, even if it’s the activity we associate with “work” in RL.

[2012/01/17 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: for the same reason they do in RL

[2012/01/17 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Is SL work? I thought it was psychotherapy and antidepressant.

[2012/01/17 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: the premise od the discussion is wrong in general

[2012/01/17 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: MMORPGs are not an exception to anything here

[2012/01/17 16:33]  Fblurbg: As long as there’s an element of compulsion, as long as it’s a matter of survival I don’t see how things are going to change radically. I mean certainly there are jobs that people like doing, because they involve activities that they wouldn’t mind performing even if there was no money involved. Research, creating art, etc.

[2012/01/17 16:33]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): haha khannea

[2012/01/17 16:33]  Lem Skall: I don’t think a lot of people “grind away” in mmorpg’s, at least not for long

[2012/01/17 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: the question of today is like “Why is USA the best country on the planet?” – well, is it?

[2012/01/17 16:33]  Lem Skall: Ivy, because god made it so

[2012/01/17 16:33]  Morgaine Dinova: Ivy: in typical MMOs you can’t translate effort into US$, so SL is in a different category, an “impure” case.

[2012/01/17 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: I rest my case

[2012/01/17 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: I think, based on a study I read, it is becaise MMORPGs give much more direct information regarding your work and how it relates to your overall performance. In MMORPGs you get a lot if info about how well you are doing, little rewards and incentives to keep going for the next big trophy.

[2012/01/17 16:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: Morgaine: yes you can, guildies of mine sold gold, in fact, two of them made a living out of it

[2012/01/17 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK MY TIME IS UP!

[2012/01/10 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: New couch will better anims on it! The brown one

[2012/01/10 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is…

[2012/01/10 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lots of choice

[2012/01/10 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: NEUROSCIENCE AND LAW: Neuroscience is becoming increasingly relevant to the law. If ‘my brain made me do it’ becomes a legitimate defense, what would the consequences be?

[2012/01/10 15:33]  TR Amat: I’ve got the neuro, and, you’ve got the science?

[2012/01/10 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Gwyn

[2012/01/10 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Gwynie!

[2012/01/10 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn

[2012/01/10 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yoo hoo

[2012/01/10 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok..well. in what circumstances would it be a legitimake defence?

[2012/01/10 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t really see it as a viable defense, at best it can decrease the punishment, but if your brain made you do it, it can make you do it again?

[2012/01/10 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: So… There is already an insanity defense, though it doesn’t work all that often. What is really changed?

[2012/01/10 15:34]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: smoochies gwyn

[2012/01/10 15:34]  TR Amat: You would need to believe that “you” are not your brain to use that as a defence?

[2012/01/10 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Cleo!)

[2012/01/10 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tr: and even if you do believe that (I do!) would a jury accept that as defence?

[2012/01/10 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: could it serve the prosecution?

[2012/01/10 15:35]  Chraeloos: I agree with insanity, what’s the difference?

[2012/01/10 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Only to prove insanity lol

[2012/01/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Chraeloos

[2012/01/10 15:36]  TR Amat: So, you need to be a dualist? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)

[2012/01/10 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: insanity can be cured?

[2012/01/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have no idea, TR!

[2012/01/10 15:36]  Chraeloos: not necessarily

[2012/01/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s a good question!

[2012/01/10 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: or “cured” :p

[2012/01/10 15:36]  Chraeloos: haha

[2012/01/10 15:36]  TR Amat: If your brain isn’t making you do it, then, what is?

[2012/01/10 15:36]  Chraeloos: Are you suggesting that scientists or surgeons could change the way your brain works?

[2012/01/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I believe that even “dualism” can be cured

[2012/01/10 15:37]  Chraeloos: Without you realizing it?

[2012/01/10 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: NOt really TR. Some people have successfully claimed they sleepwalked while committing a crime, and got the sentence quashed. That is not a dualist plee, well not classic dualism.

[2012/01/10 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: what if instead of prison you’d be sentenced to lobotomy instead?

[2012/01/10 15:37]  TR Amat: Sufficient head trauma can ‘cure’ all sorts of problems.

[2012/01/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lobotomy is not accepted in most Western countries anyway.

[2012/01/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: yes

[2012/01/10 15:38]  Sophiekittycat: lobotomy is just a kind of soft guillotine

[2012/01/10 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: pretty much, yes

[2012/01/10 15:38]  TR Amat: I had a ‘uncle’ (family friend) who’d had a full frontal lobotomy for extreme alcoholism – he was a bit strange…

[2012/01/10 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: “I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy”

[2012/01/10 15:38]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: isnt the idea that in order to be on trial, you have to be sane enough to help with your own defense and understand what is going on? i.e. not be psychotic

[2012/01/10 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: did he stop drinking (sorry if it sounds bad, just curious)?

[2012/01/10 15:39]  Sophiekittycat: probkem is to define sanity and insanity cleo

[2012/01/10 15:39]  TR Amat: He thought he’d have been dead if he kept on drinking. Instead, was someone who wasn’t him living on?

[2012/01/10 15:39]  Sophiekittycat: problem oops

[2012/01/10 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: OK, I think it all hinges on whether whatever physical thing we are talking about can be controlled by the Will.

[2012/01/10 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I always had a problem with the issue that people have to be sane to stand trial. AFter all, someone who has murdered their wife in cold blood because of some reason or other and was perfectly aware of all that was going on… is definitely mentally insane for me

[2012/01/10 15:40]  TR Amat: I’ve come to the opinion that a lot of the time, a lot of people, aren’t rational.

[2012/01/10 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: will or free will?

[2012/01/10 15:40]  TR Amat: (That doesn’t necessary exclude me.

[2012/01/10 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: But what if neuroscience determines every crime can be attibuted to some kind of brain malfunction? In that case, is anyone really guilty?

[2012/01/10 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: yes! that’s why they *are* people!

[2012/01/10 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: The Will as in the philosophical concept of Will.

[2012/01/10 15:41]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the devil made me do it.

[2012/01/10 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: no I didn’t!

[2012/01/10 15:41]  Chraeloos: Philosophers and scientists are arguing that free will doesn’t exist

[2012/01/10 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah Extie… then the question is about the Jewish-Christian-inspired definition of “guilty”

[2012/01/10 15:41]  Sophiekittycat: sanity in trials is defined by can someone doinga bad act know that they doa bad act if no they cant go in jail but in hospital because prison is for people knowing they go in jail to repay to society

[2012/01/10 15:41]  TR Amat: I think a big issue is “consistent identity” – we only presecute people for things that they do while they’re being consistent?

[2012/01/10 15:41]  TR Amat: prosecute*

[2012/01/10 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Will and free will are different concepts

[2012/01/10 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: This way of looking at culpability migt create the attitude og looking at people with neurological impairments as if you don’t look at ;people, but rather as if you look at a piece of faulty equipment, This can have a dehumanizing effect. Like how you react when your friend has the black plague. You have a tendency to flee. You friend is now a threatening creature.

[2012/01/10 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: so, if I’m drunk, I can murder people at will?

[2012/01/10 15:42]  Chraeloos: http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/readers-comments-on-my-free-will-piece-and-my-responses/, http://kazez.blogspot.com/2012/01/slam-dunk-no-free-will.html, http://blog.talkingphilosophy.com/?p=4045

[2012/01/10 15:42]  Sophiekittycat: gwyneth would not be at willa s you would have a will while drunk

[2012/01/10 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Personally, I choose to believe in the absence of free will.

[2012/01/10 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sophie: perhaps, perhaps

[2012/01/10 15:42]  TR Amat: If you are drunk, and do damage/harm, you are to blame for getting drunk in a place where you don’t have a minder.

[2012/01/10 15:42]  Sophiekittycat: while drunk would be unwilled homicid not willed homicid

[2012/01/10 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: What if China or some of those fascist countries says “we kill people who are insane”. Plain and simple, It saves money, we do those people a favor and we do society a favor.

[2012/01/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes, and I’m working to get my free will back! It takes time.

[2012/01/10 15:43]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i think sane is just meaning .. like oriented x3..

[2012/01/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: so I’d be convicted for getting drunk but not for being a murderess?

[2012/01/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: pity that they wouldn’t start at the top… heh heh

[2012/01/10 15:43]  Sophiekittycat: main problem is what is frontier between sanity and insanity ? is sanity a law fact a society fact or s cience fact ?

[2012/01/10 15:44]  TR Amat: Causing death by neligence, maybe?

[2012/01/10 15:44]  TR Amat: negligence*

[2012/01/10 15:44]  Sophiekittycat: are we sane because we act in what society consider normal or because science can sayou you are insane ?

[2012/01/10 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes but you all think in terms of culpability. In most of history people were looked at in terms of societal use. If you were useful, you lived. If yiu were a nuisance, you were discarded or even killed.

[2012/01/10 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: So if there is no free will, there is no responsibility. Therefore everyone is innocent including the prosecutors who make them guilty becasuse no one can do other than they do.

[2012/01/10 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sanity: average behaviour by the median person… or is it median behaviour by the average person?

[2012/01/10 15:44]  Chraeloos: Extie, aren’t many crimes already influenced by brain malfunctions?

[2012/01/10 15:45]  TR Amat: Doing stupid things while being drugged out of your mind should at least get you charged with negligence…

[2012/01/10 15:45]  Sophiekittycat: average people in humanity is greedy egoist an dnot very smart if you are not this you are insane

[2012/01/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: well, I was half-joking. I think that someone who gets drunk and then commits murder is even more dangerous than someone who doesn’t need to get drunk to commit murder, but that’s just me.

[2012/01/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Negligence is too soft, IMHO

[2012/01/10 15:45]  Chraeloos: Gwyneth I think it’s more referring to the fact that we are the way we are and therefore our lives are set for us, not that we cant choose but that the choice is an illusion?

[2012/01/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Negligence would ONLY apply, IMHO, if someone claimed that they had no idea about the effects of alcohol in their organism.

[2012/01/10 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: I know of one case. A man started to have lustful thoughts toward his daughter. They found a tumor in his brain pressing on the region that is responsile for sexual desire. They removed the tumor and the lustful thoughts went away. years later, they return and yes so did the tumor. Now..was this man to blame for his thoughts and any actions he may have carried out?

[2012/01/10 15:46]  TR Amat: I think a big point is the “consistent identity”, with (allegedly) consistent and predicatable behaviour. Part of the definition of a (responsible) individual…

[2012/01/10 15:46]  Sophiekittycat: there is in law several scales of killings , killing under alcohol is unwilled homicid not same at all than planned killing

[2012/01/10 15:46]  Chraeloos: I heard about that too, Extie

[2012/01/10 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: The question is what is the contextual value of accrediting free will, or “an insanity defense”. Of course it is the humane thing to do and I favor looking at neurological impairment. BUT it may turn out that this is a societal luxury, that comes at a cost. And we run the risk we overextend this relative cost. If we go to far to akcowledge neurological context in a proper manner, this may “snap back” and we may end up with a really nasty kind of fascism.

[2012/01/10 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is pointless to bring in the concept of ‘no free will’ or ‘choice is illusion’ in this type of discussion. Those premises negate the discussion from the start.

[2012/01/10 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chraeloos: I meant “free will” in a slightly different context. Free will is when we can act independently of external constraints (e.g. a situation) and internal ones (i.e. mostly driven by our emotions/instinct/(thoughts). Few people can act beyond both, so it’s a common assumption that “free will does not exist”

[2012/01/10 15:47]  Sophiekittycat: artcrash and if we dont trust in absolut free will ?

[2012/01/10 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: I see his happen around me allready. People don’t give a flying fuck about people with a mental problem. Fopr the vast majority of people ‘the mad” can go and die.

[2012/01/10 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: What philosophers generally think is that we do not have total free will but are free withing certain constraints.

[2012/01/10 15:47]  Chraeloos: Ah ok Gwyneth

[2012/01/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sophie, I know; I just happen to disagree — except, as said, in the case where someone is unaware of the effects of alcohol

[2012/01/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes

[2012/01/10 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: If you want to talk about responsibility, you have to start with the PREMISE that choice and will are possible.

[2012/01/10 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: until someone proves to me that brain is a quantum machine I assume we have no free will

[2012/01/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d certainly agree that most philosophers generally have no free will, so they postulate that there is no free will (under your definition)

[2012/01/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Art! Yes

[2012/01/10 15:49]  TR Amat: Isn’t the evidence that at least a third of the population have mental health problems at some point in their lives? If so, disregarding mental illness is blatent stupidity. (Or, maybe, not totally rational.

[2012/01/10 15:49]  Sophiekittycat: responsability can exist even if full freewill not( exist, we have the responsability of what we can do but responability cant exist without things that push us in a side or another

[2012/01/10 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: We can all argue about the theory of this, But we live in a democracy and what if at some voters say “I don’t GIVE a fuck about what happens in a brain of a pedophyle and that he has a disorder, I want him to die screaming n boiling oil,. NOW”

[2012/01/10 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the Western world, 1/3 of the population is clinically diagnosed with some sort of depression — definitely a mental condition (even though it has physical effects, of course)

[2012/01/10 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: How you behave under the influence is culturally-determined. For instance, in England being drunk is associated with being loud and boorish. In experiments they ask peple to drink what they think is lots of alcohol (actually alcohol-free beer and wine) and English subjects act all boistrous.

[2012/01/10 15:50]  Chraeloos: Or an impossition by drug companies, Gwyneth

[2012/01/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My politically incorrect statement of the evening: pedophilia is also a social construct.

[2012/01/10 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar suggests boiling all people in olive oil for aesthetic reasons.

[2012/01/10 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: I agree Gwyn.

[2012/01/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chraeloos: I’m not so cynical, but you might be very right!!

[2012/01/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: lol

[2012/01/10 15:50]  TR Amat: You need a lot of olive oil to boil someone – expensive?

[2012/01/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: oh yes, the power of polacebo

[2012/01/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *placebo even

[2012/01/10 15:51]  Sophiekittycat: talking of pedophilia is a trap gwyneth a speople will answer to it by emotion and forget that between of a third to half of pedophiles were too victims of pedophily

[2012/01/10 15:51]  Chraeloos: Watch the movie “fishheads” (thanks to Khannea)

[2012/01/10 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: I estimate about 450 euro. More if it is veregine oil. A nice young boy. A grown man would rate 700 euro in olive oil.

[2012/01/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I think that the problem in a trial is to be able to *prove* that “you” weren’t the one doing the act.

[2012/01/10 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Not that I have tried, this is just a guess.

[2012/01/10 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes I have watched it Craeloos.

[2012/01/10 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sophie: yes indeed

[2012/01/10 15:52]  TR Amat: I know people who get ‘drunk’ by being around people who are drinking, and, if drink alcohol themseves get depressed…

[2012/01/10 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Pedophile sounds like ‘someone who loves children’. Well, most of us do. It is kind of hardwired into us.

[2012/01/10 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: My brain is making me be snarky. But really Im innocent!

[2012/01/10 15:52]  Chraeloos: Khannea, your link to it was how I watched it

[2012/01/10 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: I’m like that lol — it’s cheaper, safer, and the police can’t fine me if I drive afterwards

[2012/01/10 15:52]  Sophiekittycat: but do we speak of law responsability or of morality responability or of philisophical responsabilty ? none are the same

[2012/01/10 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Ohwwww

[2012/01/10 15:52]  Chraeloos: so thanks haha

[2012/01/10 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: I think it falls down to the problem of “resocialization” really. Does it really matter what makes the criminal commit crimes if it can’t be helped? We don’t isolate people because they are inherently, willingly, evil (by whatever measure), we do so because they are dangerous.

[2012/01/10 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: You get drunk by runnikng a script that affects your avvie, Gwyn;)

[2012/01/10 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: Good point Ivy

[2012/01/10 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe Sophie. Good question. Legally, I think that it’s a question of being able to *prove* it in court (which is only possible under common law systems anyway)

[2012/01/10 15:53]  TR Amat: Once you start making revenge and retribution a significant aim of the justice system, a lot of things don’t work too well…

[2012/01/10 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: pfft My aavatar is not my self

[2012/01/10 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy’s point is good about just “isolation”

[2012/01/10 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other day I was defending that *all* prisons should offer all inmates free counselling.

[2012/01/10 15:54]  Sophiekittycat: law responsability consider only facts , morality consider society , and philosophy well it is ethic responability the individual and the absolut

[2012/01/10 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: I thought they did?

[2012/01/10 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: I guess the real issue is that science can give us some kind of tangible, objective indication of the defendant’s mental condition. Instead of, you know, “Look how crazy he acts!”

[2012/01/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is not the same as saying that “all criminals are terminally insane”; but just recognising that all can be helped.

[2012/01/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (well, they don’t here, Extie)

[2012/01/10 15:55]  TR Amat: I’m not totally convinced that you don’t get truly evil people – I just hope that they are really thin on the ground.

[2012/01/10 15:55]  Sophiekittycat: talking of law responasbilitry will bring nothing as we come from different countries with different society morality

[2012/01/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: but *can* science give us that?

[2012/01/10 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: You all skip by this for some reason. We all assume the law respects the constraints of neurology of free will. HOWVER this is in the context of the same neurological frailties pf VOTERS in the democratic systems. And what if the same voters may themselves be statistically be prone to demanding pathologically heavy sentencing? You end up with a very tricky dilemma – on the one hand rationality and compassion shows respct for people committing crimes under mental duress – under the other hand this compassion only exists in a context of democratic judicial oversight, and if the electorate wants fundamentally pathologically sentencing, we are back at square one.

[2012/01/10 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: but even if it does, does it mean we shouldn’t put the nutcrack to the jail?

[2012/01/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So far, psychology can only profile us according to statistical data…

[2012/01/10 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: I believe a lot of neuroscientists take issue with it as well, Zo. The science is just not that well established.

[2012/01/10 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, that’s an interesting point….

[2012/01/10 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: maybe in best case put him in the “special” jail

[2012/01/10 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: with soft walls and stuff :p

[2012/01/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What would that “special” jail be?

[2012/01/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah

[2012/01/10 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Cryogenics would be such a nice solution.

[2012/01/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: With padding on the walls

[2012/01/10 15:56]  TR Amat: In the UK the death penalty was abolished even though a lot of voters said it should be retained.

[2012/01/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, good idea, Khannea ㋡

[2012/01/10 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: “His brain made him do it! Someone with that kind of defective brain should be locked up!”

[2012/01/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: yes, this is then more a question of morals and less about laws

[2012/01/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ZO: … and retrained

[2012/01/10 15:57]  Sophiekittycat: once again what perturb me is not the full responability zone sor full mentally irresponsable but the grey frontier the limit between free will and instinct or madness

[2012/01/10 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: “Oh, and these other people have the same defect, even though they haven’t committed any crimes yet. We better go ahead and lock them up too…”

[2012/01/10 15:57]  TR Amat: I think the death penalty was correctly abolished – but, you need to be a rich enough society to lock up people when it takes 20+yrs to figure-out they aren’t guilty.

[2012/01/10 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Precrime, Zo?

[2012/01/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sophie: that’s why those legal cases are so hard to judge….

[2012/01/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I saw that movie too! haha

[2012/01/10 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s the old: We aren’t punishing you for what you did, we’re punishing you for being the kind of person who would do it.

[2012/01/10 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: @TR: [15:55] jo: is actually wrong, death penalty for treason still exists. a lot voters want it back, is atually a right wong press led thing and not true, most people don’t want it in proper surveys

[2012/01/10 15:58]  Sophiekittycat: absolutely gwyneth nothing is black or white all is scales of colors

[2012/01/10 15:58]  TR Amat: Look at the levels of mental illness, and people with education problem in prisons?

[2012/01/10 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Precisely Zobeids. What if we end up with the flip side – Lets round up eveyone with the defect proactively. One day you are eating breakfast, then they grab you and you turn out to rate positive on being a potential serial torture killer. “Here look at this test developed by Montanso”!

[2012/01/10 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Armies used to kill their own soldiers for running away from being shot at by the enemy.

[2012/01/10 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Gandalf gave the best reason to abolish the death penalty: ‘he may deserve death, but many who have died deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be so hasty to deal at death’.

[2012/01/10 15:59]  TR Amat: I believe the death penalty still exists in the UK for treason and arson of a naval dockyard.

[2012/01/10 15:59]  Chraeloos: Go LoTR!

[2012/01/10 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: woot!

[2012/01/10 15:59]  Sophiekittycat: death is definitive if you mistake you cant give life back, but freedom you can give back

[2012/01/10 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: K’s cryogenics might be the best solution to that

[2012/01/10 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Unless you really believe in cryonics and take Khannea’s advice.

[2012/01/10 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: Then again, after a few years at Guantanano bay you can never give back the inmates the freedom of their sanity. All released are released irreversibly traumatized and broken.

[2012/01/10 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: boo! Gwynie crashed.

[2012/01/10 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb!

[2012/01/10 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/my-guantanamo-nightmare.html?_r=2&smid=fb-share

[2012/01/10 16:02]  TR Amat: A lot of people in WWII UK probably sufferend from PTSD, but, very few were treated – they just muddld on, and tried to live a good life.

[2012/01/10 16:02]  Sophiekittycat: torture is a psychological version of death penalty, guantanamo was done by beasts

[2012/01/10 16:02]  TR Amat: muddled*

[2012/01/10 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: back grr

[2012/01/10 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: It was not torture. It was aggressive interrogation;)

[2012/01/10 16:02]  Sophiekittycat: wb miss gwyneth

[2012/01/10 16:02]  Chraeloos: wb

[2012/01/10 16:03]  Sophiekittycat: and punching is not hurting but agressive caresses ?

[2012/01/10 16:03]  TR Amat: wb Gwyneth

[2012/01/10 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: wb Gwynie!

[2012/01/10 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: OH hello Rhi!

[2012/01/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks — I didn’t crash, my router made me do it!

[2012/01/10 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Rhi

[2012/01/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hi Rhi!

[2012/01/10 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Extie!

[2012/01/10 16:03]  Sophiekittycat: welcome rhi

[2012/01/10 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyns router DOES have free will, you know.

[2012/01/10 16:04]  Chraeloos: Hi Rhia

[2012/01/10 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Chrae!

[2012/01/10 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sorry, I’m late; my brain put me to sleep

[2012/01/10 16:04]  Chraeloos: Chraeloos chuckles.

[2012/01/10 16:04]  TR Amat: Hi Rhiannon

[2012/01/10 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhi

[2012/01/10 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Zoe!

[2012/01/10 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: no, but definitely a will of its own

[2012/01/10 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: There ate still severely stigmatizing diagnoses. For example in psychiary there is the “diagnosis” of borderline. It is rarely give out these days, if at all, since it was found to rapidly increase rats of suicide. It turned out that Borderline as a diagnosis (not an actual disease) caused suicide, because it causes everyone to actively shun the (alleged) patient. The diagnosis itself is a death sentence.

[2012/01/10 16:04]  TR Amat: Brains can do that sort of thing. Some apply dark chocolate.

[2012/01/10 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi… right!

[2012/01/10 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: alcohol can make you act like jerk and it doesn’t have free will either

[2012/01/10 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blame the brain.

[2012/01/10 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And the map put me on the mountain below; when I dashed here, hit my head. So decided to set in this chair instead

[2012/01/10 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: one good exemple of kind of responsabilities, what is your responsability when you are aske dto do something as to agressivily question ( torturing) someone ?

[2012/01/10 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the whole issue of free will vs. determinism, which this is a variation of, is, imo, a peudo-problme. You can be free & determined, depending on the causation

[2012/01/10 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: Sophie, I have fairly recently IRL and it was great fun for all involved.

[2012/01/10 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: According to Milligra,, delegate responsibility to the guy in the labcoat.

[2012/01/10 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha Khannea

[2012/01/10 16:06]  Sophiekittycat: it was nuremberg trial question, nazies said i am not guilty i was ordered to do it, same answers for guantanamo

[2012/01/10 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: *Milligram

[2012/01/10 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If “my brain made me do it,” as my neocortex and executive functions did it, then I’m free; if my somnombulism made me do it, then I am not.

[2012/01/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “A man strikes another with the stick. Do we get angry at the stick? After all,it’s the man behind it holding the stick. But the man did so out of anger. Why should we blame the man? Blame anger instead and erradicate it.” This was actually said by a great teacher of the past, I’m not making it up…

[2012/01/10 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We can cause vountary actions.

[2012/01/10 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: wise person.

[2012/01/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He was, yes.

[2012/01/10 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: I blame anger

[2012/01/10 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.

[2012/01/10 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar spanks anger

[2012/01/10 16:07]  Sophiekittycat: but the stick not have the possibility to refuse as someone who got orders can refuse

[2012/01/10 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Me next, Art! I will pay!

[2012/01/10 16:07]  TR Amat: I think they discovered that 3% just wouldn’t behave unethically, no matter how much pressure they put them under. So, what did the 3% have going for them, and, how do you ensure you get some of that?

[2012/01/10 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar spanks Extie

[2012/01/10 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And even though moral responsibility isn’t the same as legal responsibility, it is analogous, and we can simply ask the law’s question–is it fair to hold someonr responsible, given certain causal chains? Sometimes, yes; sometimes, no

[2012/01/10 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Our problem is by and large that damn Amygdala. I knew that damn Queen was up to no good.

[2012/01/10 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So in a perfect society, we wouldn’t put the person away in prison hoping they reflected on their crimes; instead, we would help them to get rid of the real causes that made them commit crimes.

[2012/01/10 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Ooo yeah!

[2012/01/10 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no, there’s a right to be punished.

[2012/01/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A “right”:

[2012/01/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: interesting.

[2012/01/10 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, a right

[2012/01/10 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: what right is that?

[2012/01/10 16:08]  Sophiekittycat: a lot of people dig deep their moral responsability when they are asked by hierarchy or law reonsability to do something

[2012/01/10 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I blame the frontal cortex! She should know better!

[2012/01/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why?

[2012/01/10 16:09]  Sophiekittycat: frontal cortex ? as a blonde i have nothing to blame then ?

[2012/01/10 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: brain software

[2012/01/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or perhaps: what does the punishing accomplish? Isn’t nerradicating the real cause of having commited a crime better than “punishment”, which might work or not?

[2012/01/10 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha Sophie!

[2012/01/10 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, I”m borrowing heavily from Morriss here, but consider if you were really treated as mentally ill for all your ciimes. And you were put away and treated against your will. If you resist your treatment, you are of course, disturbed. If you challenged your status in any way, you are disturbied. Punishment, you can challenge as unfair; it treats you more as a person.

[2012/01/10 16:09]  TR Amat: How do you go about building a “moral monitor” for yourself? So, you get to say “Wait a minute, I need to think about this”?

[2012/01/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Throw a stone in the dark, and it might hit the target or not. Turn on the lights, and it’s easier not to miss.

[2012/01/10 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, tht’s exactly how you do it.

[2012/01/10 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: Prisons are not means to refklect. Prisons take men away from their active procreative years and reduce the chance they beget children. Essentially prisons are Euthanasia batteries. Sadly this strategy backfired, since in some parts of US society being an convicted inm,ate makes you a desirable procreative partner, a “tough guy” for some females. So what did legislators do? Other than langthen sentences and the three strikes rule? Create conditions that feminize inmates.

[2012/01/10 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: Castration by proxy

[2012/01/10 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So anyone see my point?

[2012/01/10 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: TR, that is what Culture does. We may or may not agree….

[2012/01/10 16:11]  Sophiekittycat: too much people talking at same time for my poor brain to see point of everyone

[2012/01/10 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Some of this discussion reminds me of a great essay that Kurt Saxon wrote. He thought it was important for our freedom that crazy people be locked up — because the alternative was to treat everyone like a potential lunatic.

[2012/01/10 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, that’s also true.

[2012/01/10 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Like that old chestnut about the person with a weird mental illness in which he strenuously claims not to be insane. And the more he claims to be rational, the more the doctors areconvinced of his insanity.

[2012/01/10 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’m fine with putting people away that are a danger to themselves and to society. But no, Rhi, I don’t see the reasoning behind “punishment” in your example. I think that what you’re saying is that someone angry enough to kill his wife gets from society the oppoortunity at getting angry at an abstract thing instead (“punishment”). That’s just diverting the object of anger, not erradicating anger.

[2012/01/10 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The point of any ascription of responsibility is the underlying assumption of personhood

[2012/01/10 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (castration by proxy? oh my)

[2012/01/10 16:12]  TR Amat: If a wife kills her husband, are years of maltreatment relevant?

[2012/01/10 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: That was in “The Poor Man’s James Bond” by the way. Great book.

[2012/01/10 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: what was?

[2012/01/10 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: It also tells how to poison people using nicotine!

[2012/01/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe… well, statistically, that’s correct

[2012/01/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I do that every day!

[2012/01/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol

[2012/01/10 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no, that had nothing to do with what I said. The person who kills his wife, is given voluntary manslaughter due to mitigating circumstances (“She was a real bitch), has the opportunity of fairness applied to him. NOthing to do with him getting angry at anything when he’s incarcerated; he has the opportunity to be taken seriously if he says, “I am innocent; check the DNA, for God’s sake.” A crazy person daying that/ obviously paranoid.

[2012/01/10 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: they are, and chances that she will kill again are relatively low

[2012/01/10 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: given proper context everybody is capable of killing

[2012/01/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m still confused, Rhi.

[2012/01/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fairness during or after the trial?

[2012/01/10 16:14]  TR Amat: So, a man who kills his wife because “she nagged him”?

[2012/01/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, all the way through, but specifically after, during the punishment phase

[2012/01/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is “fair” in punishment?

[2012/01/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, don’t get lost in details;

[2012/01/10 16:14]  Sophiekittycat: fair is when everyone get the same for same act and responsability

[2012/01/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The right to challenge it, for one thing; as opposed to having no rights if “My brain made me do it.”

[2012/01/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, really; what is the fairness of “punish” someone?

[2012/01/10 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: justice system isn’t, or even shouldn’t try to be “fair”

[2012/01/10 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes. And then one day you are an angry old person, they lock you in a charge for 48 hours, pepper spray you in the face 10 times and then you die. Innocent, but a nuisance. http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/death-non-lethal-pepper-spray

[2012/01/10 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: the purpose of the justice system is to minimize the crime rate

[2012/01/10 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, contrast punishment with therapeutizing someone.

[2012/01/10 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, one of the purposes; others is to rehabilitate, to have retribution

[2012/01/10 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: what if the brain malfunction can be corrected or at least made irrelevant with conditioning or somethikng? What then, Rhi?

[2012/01/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on what you mean by “therapeusing”

[2012/01/10 16:15]  Sophiekittycat: the purpose of justice system is not to minimize but to make criminals pay the debt to society

[2012/01/10 16:15]  TR Amat: The puspose of the justice system is (allegedly) to get revenge/retribution, to deter by setting an example, and to reform so the crime’s not repeated.

[2012/01/10 16:16]  TR Amat: purpose*

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I meant what Extie said.

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, what we ordinarily mean by it; locking you away in a mental institution and doing things to you to cure you.

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Roronoa1

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: I think we have grown out of the revenge thing these days, or are we still monkeys?

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So curing a person is BAD while punishing them is GOOD?

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Roronoa6: hi

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my.

[2012/01/10 16:16]  RR Ballgag 1.14 (mouth): whispers: Jo Soosung’s RR Ballgag 1.14 (mouth) has been unlocked by Ivy Sunkiller after 0:56:30 (detached 0 times)

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Sophiekittycat: revenge is not justice or you become a criminal too

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You know–electroshocks to the brain; putting you in freezing water, stripping you naked, giving you dangerous drugs. Therapy.

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Could we introduce market mechanisms in justice, offering the convict a range of “solutions” (including death as one) where the basket of solutions all made sure “the crime were no longer committed”, and the solution were applied at a fair and reasonable cost?

[2012/01/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. No., I was thinking of a far more effective method, lol

[2012/01/10 16:17]  whoa!!! the justice system is to evalulate if people break the law and how to protect society from them and/or punish them.

[2012/01/10 16:17]  Doll (jo.soosung): politians (the people) set the laws, and how the police should detect criminals,

[2012/01/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m fine with the “Protect the society” for them.

[2012/01/10 16:17]  Sophiekittycat: market in justice ? we have enougth market laws in life

[2012/01/10 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, oh, yes, slicing off parts of their brain.

[2012/01/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m questioning the effectiveness of “punishment”

[2012/01/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Rhi

[2012/01/10 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: But future treatments might bemore precise and effective than that, Rhi.

[2012/01/10 16:17]  TR Amat: The monkey desire for revenge is still a significant part of “justice”…

[2012/01/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m definitely not advocating *any* of that

[2012/01/10 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: I disagree that the purpose of the justice system is revenge. The purpose is to incentivize people to obey the laws, so anarchy doesn’t prevail.

[2012/01/10 16:17]  Doll (jo.soosung): lowering the crime rate is about living standards and education, not punishment

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): As opposed to giving them the opportunity to find God, learn a trade, and restricting them to an environment that is safer than the one they came from

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: justice is punishment done in name of the society to avoiud lynchages do ne by citizens as revenge

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: well it shouldn’t be

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: or past treatments. I happen to have an effective methoid which will work on any human being …

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: I don’t want “punishment” or “vengeance”. I do not trust democracy in its sickening blood orgy demand for retribution. I want the crime gone.

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Doll (jo.soosung): in a country where you have your hand chopped off for stealling bread, theft still occurs

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: it is what justice bring, same punishment for alls and not lynchages

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: what is it, Gwyn?

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: what K has said

[2012/01/10 16:18]  TR Amat: Anyone looking at the justice system gets a clearer idea of how much rationally humans generally manage to deploy.

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Object: Restricted to owner only!

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And back to Zoe’s point, we can and do distinguish between those who it is fair to punish and who it is fair to treat.

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Familiarisation with one’s own mind, Extie.

[2012/01/10 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: not a lot sadly amat

[2012/01/10 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): EVen with an assumption of causality, we can and do, do tht

[2012/01/10 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: What she said?

[2012/01/10 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m ok with giving them a trade, of course

[2012/01/10 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or education

[2012/01/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And even with providing a safer environment!

[2012/01/10 16:20]  Sophiekittycat: a criminal can be educated and smart , they are not all idiots and poors

[2012/01/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (both for them… and for society)

[2012/01/10 16:20]  TR Amat: Deterrence doesn’t work. Most criminals do not make a rational assessment. So…

[2012/01/10 16:20]  Roronoa6: i am new in this game what is this place?

[2012/01/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a philosophical discussion event, Roronoa6 — welcome

[2012/01/10 16:20]  Sophiekittycat: or would mean white richa nd educated you are honest but black poor and uneducated you desserve death

[2012/01/10 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, Gwyn, do you think more progress in neuroscience leading to a clearer understanding of how the mind works will make us all better informed about how own minds?

[2012/01/10 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: I have no problems with humane, even pleasant enclaves where criminals are kept in communities, isolated from society at large,

[2012/01/10 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: You could stop MOST prison crime by only haveing one person to a cell.

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Roronoa6: ok i am listening

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Doll (jo.soosung): in a country that has a three strikes and your out rule, in other words one of the’highest’ prices for crime, they also have one of the highest rates of crime and people in prison percentage

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: In fact sometimes I fear this fucking planet is one of those.

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Sophie: the ones that aren’t idiots are not getting caught (Goldman Sachs f.e. )

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least, Extie, it might make legislators better informed

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, without underfunding and not even really t ryings, 40% of the people coming out of prisons never regress. And get honest jobs. IMagine if we actually do what the prisons say they do?

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I would think the majority would be rehabilitated.

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 40%? Mmh. That’s good.

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Roronoa6 we are having a debate about neuroscience and law, particularly the defense ‘my brain made me do it’.

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: So 60% of people who go tio prisons ARE LOST ???

[2012/01/10 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: FUCK~!!!

[2012/01/10 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, at the moment, but they needn’t be.

[2012/01/10 16:22]  Roronoa6: ok i understand

[2012/01/10 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are always two ways at least to see the same numbers

[2012/01/10 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): With proper fundating, training, teaching

[2012/01/10 16:22]  TR Amat: If society want ‘value’ out of criminals, then the smart thing is to educate them and treat their mental health problems. Someone who ends up imprissioned means society has failed in their socialisation, and that needs correcting.

[2012/01/10 16:22]  Sophiekittycat: if only 40% of people who go to jail never regress it is that how prisons works is a serious failure

[2012/01/10 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Keep in mind, a lot of them were put into prison to begin with for “victimless crimes” that arguably shouldn’t be illegal at all. :/

[2012/01/10 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe. yeah, 75% are there on drug related charges

[2012/01/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: I would be much more inclined to agree with you on that

[2012/01/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes, that’s a different problem! Agreed

[2012/01/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. those “crimes” are just morality issues

[2012/01/10 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sophie, it is a serious failure; I agree.

[2012/01/10 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But I”m one of those bleeding hearts who thinks everyone should be treated with dignity and given the opportunity to serve society

[2012/01/10 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with the content, Rhi

[2012/01/10 16:24]  TR Amat: The history of the illegality of drug taking is interesting.

[2012/01/10 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably not just with the form…

[2012/01/10 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: “serve” ?? slaver!

[2012/01/10 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is a cult polish movie called Debt (Dług), about two businessmen that were being exploited and threatened by one guy, they eventually killed him. The movie is based on a real story, they were released from prison by president (don’t remember which one now).

[2012/01/10 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You mean the imprisonment, not with how we do it, Gwyn?

[2012/01/10 16:25]  Sophiekittycat: rhiannon if you act with beasts asa beast you become a beast if you act human even with a beast you stay human, we should always act with dignity

[2012/01/10 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I agree, Sophie

[2012/01/10 16:25]  RR Armbinder (right shoulder): whispers: Jo Soosung has been unlocked by Ivy Sunkiller after 2:32:30 (detached 0 times)

[2012/01/10 16:26]  Sophiekittycat: ivy is a true jail keeper she liock unlock gag ungag

[2012/01/10 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Run while you can, Doll!

[2012/01/10 16:26]  TR Amat: You don’t need human DNA of mental architecture to act humanely, or have humanity, is an important premise.

[2012/01/10 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think she did, Extie

[2012/01/10 16:26]  Sophiekittycat: run run forest doll ?

[2012/01/10 16:26]  TR Amat: or mental*

[2012/01/10 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s not imprisonment

[2012/01/10 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: I seek to escape this pestilence you call society and secede as quickly as possible. Wasn’t that the theme of “there will be blood” ? The only solution for people with antisocial personality disorders is to become rich? And lo, so Europe exported all thoe people and They invented the US?

[2012/01/10 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: she needs to ban some griefers

[2012/01/10 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, Gwyn!

[2012/01/10 16:26]  Sophiekittycat: wb

[2012/01/10 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Gwyn, bash the router harder!

[2012/01/10 16:27]  TR Amat: Campaign to ensure everyone has at least two routes to the INternet.

[2012/01/10 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: and hehe K

[2012/01/10 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I just got one of those forced v3 updates; I’m surprised you all don’t look like kangaroos and that I can move.

[2012/01/10 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: Sociopathic people, those who feel neither guilt nor shame, aren’t really capable of ‘doing the right thing’. So are they therefore innocent? I don’t think we could ever say that. Brain made me do it is irrelevant there. Societies goal is to remove them from making harm for others regardless of why the do what they do…

[2012/01/10 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: I think you can turn off the automatic update in options, Rhi.

[2012/01/10 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: Seriously, and you believe this? Art?

[2012/01/10 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, legally, sociopaths aren’t innocent, as they do know the difference between right and wrong, but they choose to ignore it.

[2012/01/10 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or they don’t think it applies to them.

[2012/01/10 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: grr crashed when trying to reply to Rhi (the answer was mostly “yes”)

[2012/01/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My ADSL provider should be PUNISHED!

[2012/01/10 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, lol

[2012/01/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Burning oil is too good for them.

[2012/01/10 16:29]  TR Amat: Sociopaths can supposed learn behaviour that lets them function in sciety. And, given suitable opportunities, often seem to. Hence various people who have reasonable lives.

[2012/01/10 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: I wouldn’t say they know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between ‘get away with’ or ‘get caught’.

[2012/01/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Slowly roasting them on a fire would be more like it

[2012/01/10 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: But we get back to Gwyn’s point Art. IF the neurological correlates of crime can be corrected, what use then is prison? Just send them off for correctrive brain surgery.

[2012/01/10 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: There is a percentage of people who is NOT a psychopath but IS a sociopath. They feel the difference but have come not to care, Essentially some radical fundamentalists are in effect NOT psychiopats but function as sociopaths,

[2012/01/10 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, there’s no reason *not* to do the correction system right. It takes $35,000 per prisoner to keep them; you could send them all to Harvard for that money.

[2012/01/10 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): per prionser per year

[2012/01/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Art, there we go back to Kohlberg

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Annually Rhiannon

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: aren’t we mixing sociopaths with psychopaths?

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: That’s what we call “bleeding money”

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: No Its two different things

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: right one minute left! should ‘my brain made me do it’ ever be used in law for defense or prosecution?

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): art, well, they don’t appreciate the difference, but the reason that they aren’t insande is they can “appreciate the criminality of their acts.”

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Not seeing another people’s emotional pain, and not giving a flying fuck.

[2012/01/10 16:30]  TR Amat: Psychiatric definitions can be tricky, as they tend to evolve.

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s what I’m saying, sociopaths are the “killer” type

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s not like a sociopath thinks we’re all Martians invading the Earth, for instance.

[2012/01/10 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: psychopats are the ones that can live in society just fine

[2012/01/10 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: no But you askjed before a nicer question. Assuming that we could simply modify a brain with corrective surgery, well, I’d be for it hehe — but I happen to know that this will never work.

[2012/01/10 16:31]  Chraeloos: I don’t think “my brain made me do it” is a valid response – UNLESS we have a viable way of fixing it.

[2012/01/10 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, well, most are dysfunctinal, as it isn’t just lack of morality, but impaired abstract reasoning ability. Perhaps it is back to Kohlberg–and PIaget

[2012/01/10 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Ivy and me know a sociopath, a finnish person in a mental institution. Absolutely terrifying. This person doesn’;t have a frigging clue.

[2012/01/10 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Chraeloos, which we do not.

[2012/01/10 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok my time is up!

[2012/01/10 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: WILL WORK FOR FREE

[2012/01/03 15:32]  Morgaine Dinova: Has Zobeid been coming in recent times?

[2012/01/03 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: She is usually here, Morgie.

[2012/01/03 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Zo has been here almost every week for a while

[2012/01/03 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Morgaine, i think so; she comes to bryce’s

[2012/01/03 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, Zo is an ocelot now though

[2012/01/03 15:32]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Thinkers! Happy New Year to one and all!

[2012/01/03 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, you’ll love her new avi

[2012/01/03 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the discussion is, as Ivy shall point out I am sure…around her neck..

[2012/01/03 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Happy New Year, Extie

[2012/01/03 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: FUSS OVER A FOX: When Anya Omhi created a scarf that resembled a stuffed fox, she received many complaints from upset SL residents over animal cruelty. Is this kind of outrage unjustified, given the object caused no harm to anyone or anything, and if so is any outrage focused on anything created in SL that does no physical harm similarly unjustified?

[2012/01/03 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Not since the cliterodectomy.

[2012/01/03 15:33]  Lulu Lacrima: ooowwww

[2012/01/03 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I was immediately reminded of the SCOTUS ruling on the chil porn act

[2012/01/03 15:33]  Lulu Lacrima: hi rhi!

[2012/01/03 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Congress had to rewrite it because of that

[2012/01/03 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Lulu!

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Let me add that by physical harm I mean anything that can disrupt SL.

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: like crasj the grid.

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Zo, Gwyn

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Hii

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They ruled that as long as no actual chil was used in the pornography, that it was constitutionally protected. I think the same goes here

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Gwyneth!

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, it’s using two alpha layers on top of the original prims

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Zoe; we were just talking about you

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: so it can cause dps loss

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi RHi & everybody — happy new year!

[2012/01/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: !!

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: We were?

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: fps* loss

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: my simplest answer (which is also a bit short, so hopefully I can find more beyond this), is that only an Augmentalist can possibly find a problem with a virtual fox fur in a virtual world, and that’s because they cannot separate worlds.

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Sorry I’m late!

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: SL is about fetishism and drama, insofar those aren’t the same. This is clearly another case of displaced militancy roleplaying, or transverse animistic protest.

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody sent me an IM with a message to relay about this topic..

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: Heya zobeid

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the fuss as described is silly. I’m a vegetarian but I can tell the difference between a dead fox and a virtual one. A virtual one is no more offensive than synthetic fur. I wouldn’t personally wear synthetic fur, I prefer natural fibre, but it isn’t offensive. And it sure isn’t animal cruelty! Please pass on good wishes to the designer. Also pass on that this person needn’t be upset by the reactions of others either. In sl there is no physical harm at all. Tasteless, opinionated, rude, inconsiderate, but no physical harm. The old addage goes: sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me. We could do with a little more emotional hardiness on sl too. Thanks for bringing this up and have a lovely time!

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, it would be an immersive, not an augmentist

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Gwyn, Happy New Year!!!!

[2012/01/03 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Likewise, Morgie

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: So having established this can we all go and have sex with undersage avatars now?

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think the SCOTUS ruling was a good one; digital representations did not do any harm to anyone; even if they were offensive

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Morgaine Dinova: Oh cool, Zobeid’s here, Happy New Year!!!!

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, yes, that might follow; and we can, actually, in some sims and in A areas

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: I have my eyes on a version of Rhiannon that’s 11 years old.

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It is the same principle

[2012/01/03 15:36]  William Hawksby: The complaint isnt that a virtual dead fox is animal cruelty but that it supports animal cruelty by making it acceptable even in a virtual world

[2012/01/03 15:36]  William Hawksby: La queja no es que un zorro muerto virtual es crueldad hacia los animales, sino que es compatible con la crueldad animal por lo que es aceptable, incluso en un mundo virtual

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Morgaine Dinova: Zobeid (momentarily off-topic) — I joined a group of yours today!

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Lulu Lacrima: khannea, did you know rhis at 11years?

[2012/01/03 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Faux fur in RL is not opposed by the Animal Cruelty people, so why is Faux Fir opposed in SL?

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh should I use the Hitler argument now? If representations of concepts are not the same thing as the concepts themselves, why banish swastikas then?

[2012/01/03 15:36]  Lulu Lacrima: zo? hello!

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, that’s offensive; I was hooker when I was s11; didn’tg have much choice about it

[2012/01/03 15:37]  William Hawksby: IT JSUT “FEELS” BAD

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwynneth, swastikas are protected speech in FL

[2012/01/03 15:37]  William Hawksby: oops

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: Ohh ok. I see. Did it pay well?

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Lulu Lacrima: not in germany

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: that’s cool Morgaine

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Some people say a dead fox wrapped around your body is bad taste, even if it is only make-believe, Art.

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, perhaps I should have used a *better* argument then.

[2012/01/03 15:37]  William Hawksby: germany has no speech protection in the sense the us does

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, aside from the fact that it’s ugly and I have no outfit to wear it with (hence my lack of top), I don’t really see how it can “feel” bad

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, no, that’s true, but then we should argue that temptation makes for restriction.

[2012/01/03 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): STFU, Hnnea

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *Khannea

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmm Ok!

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Chraeloos

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Chraeloos: Hello everyone

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: If bad taste was a crime in SL, the population would be decimated.

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Lulu Lacrima: rhia, I’m not sure I’ve just argued a point for anything other than the fact that the swastika is banned in germany….

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Lulu Lacrima: a little late here to the game, IMing

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Again, Chraeloos:)

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: hey heyo Chraeloos

[2012/01/03 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But what of that SCOTUS argument–that child porn is ok, as long as it isn’t exploiting actual children or is used for commercial purposes, or to solicit pedeastry–which the new law all prohibits

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Lulu Lacrima: rhia, child porn is made from the exploitation of a child

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: child porn is not OK in SL.

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Lulu Lacrima: which is a crime

[2012/01/03 15:39]  William Hawksby: people opposed to smoking often demand that people using those electronic cigarettes stop using them in public places- theres no harm to anyone but they dont like the :idea” of smokingo

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Lulu Lacrima: period

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In most of Europe, mere *representations* of child porn are NOT ok.

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: I believe that there is a law here that forbids underage *drawn* porn

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Morgaine Dinova: Taste is the product of a cultural value judgement. In a virtual world, unless you’re a dyed-in-the-wool augmentalist, you should use the value judgements of the virtual world, not of some other world like RL.

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: now that’s an excellent argument!

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn is a smoker

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, no it’s not; that’s why the yad to change the law; the courts said that digital representations, however, realistic, do not exploit children

[2012/01/03 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: yes

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s why it’s analogous–do digital representations of fur, etc., really harm animals?

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, whose law, and where?

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: b/c it’s not legal in this state

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: it harms the soul of people who wear it!

[2012/01/03 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: OK, so those electronic smoking thing. They contain nicotine right? And it is exhaled, right? So how is that safe for others?

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, the Internet Decency law, Federal, United States

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: hrmmmmmm

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s like counter-strike, you play enough and you go postal in high school

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: But Morgie so few people these days hold such a fundamental immersionist attitude. Not even I am that strict an immersionist anymore.

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: what is exhaled is 100% water vapour

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima makes note of rhi’s citatton

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: In my country it is still illegal to engage in simulated or emulated sexual acts with children or child like shapes, especially if it involves others. Fo r instance, imports AND use of real life sex dolls in to this part of western Europe will get you questioned, and on some lists you don’t wanna be.

[2012/01/03 15:40]  William Hawksby: the nicotime is not exhaled

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: *citation

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: hence, you were a faux fox enough, and you go fox hunting!

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Banned all child pornography; was thrown out by SCOTUS, was amended to allow the criminalization of most porn.

[2012/01/03 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: you wear*

[2012/01/03 15:40]  William Hawksby: not in any significant amounts

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller shoots another typist

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi FreeSpirit

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: In Sweden it is far more extreme. ANY kind of interaction that remotely deals with child sexual topics is reason for arrest and imprisonment there.

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: they must be piling up, Ivy;)

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: it’s the same in my country too., Most of Europe has similar laws.

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey! … I saw that colorful avatar in a hard core porn sim.

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So it does seem, Khannea, that there is a real issue here–does digital represntations of harming animals really shold be banned, as offensive

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Nice.

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, there’s the american Indian, and the subcontinental Indian swastika that supposedly impart positive life force powers

[2012/01/03 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Is this topic about child porn? Seems to be all we are talking about.

[2012/01/03 15:42]  William Hawksby: if we ban everything that upsets our “Do-gooder and feel-gooder” sensibilities, noting will be legal , not even in SL

[2012/01/03 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it’s about how representations, even though they’re not the same thing, evoke the same feelings.

[2012/01/03 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The law in America is similar, but if a guy had pictures, all digital images, of child sex on his computer, he would be not committing anyh crime. But he can’t share them, can’t commericalize them, they can’t use actual children.

[2012/01/03 15:42]  Lulu Lacrima: extropia, seems we’re discussing the representation of rl objectification

[2012/01/03 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So like what? That’s less than 1% of the cases?

[2012/01/03 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Lulu

[2012/01/03 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And William, that’s indeed the question.

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, we’re discussing how symbolic representation could be really offensive and if it should be regulated

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not mind it getting a mention as a case in point. But can we maybe not talk exclusively about child porn?

[2012/01/03 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Question; Does the faux fir thing have different implications in SL BECAUSE of the prevalence of Animal avatars? And they find it offensive? That might make some sense, except then how do you explain Zombies not being offensive?

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Zo

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: No but the child porn argument is pretty much an extrapolation if the sensitive issue surrounding animal rights, animal abuse and fur. Am I allowed to virtual take puppies in SL and simulate cooking them, as is normal in some chinese dishes? Throwing them alive in boiling water?

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Lulu Lacrima: all representations are symbolic, m’dear Rhia

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William I agree

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And most peopole can tell the difference.

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There you go, Lulu

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I still think it’s funny when I get to wear leopard-print outfits.

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: I can skin women and eat them from the steak, while they still live. That seems to be fairly common here.

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Lulu Lacrima: “Does the faux fir thing have different implications in SL BECAUSE of the prevalence of Animal avatars?” is an excellent question

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: I’ve noticed how easy it is for principles to wither away, and I can’t say it makes me happy. But you can’t compromise with that devil, because the end result is the total loss of virtual worlds, and that means we are left with no ability for independent thought at all.

[2012/01/03 15:43]  William Hawksby: furries choose to be furries knowing that sometimes RL furries get butchered for furs or meat-

[2012/01/03 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It seems to be that SCOTUS had a point–if it doesn’t really harm anyone real, why not allow it?

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: someone else IM ed to say that if the faux fox used a texture that was a photo of a real dead fox, then a real fox was harmed in the making of the product.

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima: good point extropia

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can fry another avatar in deep oil if you (and the other person) want to, as long as there is no ageplay

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima: or whomever IMed that

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima: ageplay?

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): True, Willliam, like women choose to go naked in SL, knowing some are raped for that in RL

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: but that does not seem to be the case.

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is an answer to that, Rhi: Puritanism. The notion that “somebody” doesn’t trust “others” to know what’s good for them or not, and so feels that “they” have the “moral” right to ban everything “offensive”.

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima: meaning: how does that relate to the fox ?

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima:

[2012/01/03 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: The argument in all these cases often used by justicial prosecutors is that simulation of these abusive behaviors leads to its practice in reality.

[2012/01/03 15:44]  William Hawksby: since when has it become illegal or for that matyter immoral to kill a fox for fur?

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea, exactly

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, but that’s neither constitutional nor a wise policy, imo

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: That’s odd because nobody seems to care much about extravagant cultures of slavery and rape here.

[2012/01/03 15:45]  William Hawksby: is there any evidence for that? i think not

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: it’s immoral in *some* cultures.

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Lulu Lacrima: correlation does not mean causation

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: A lot of people believe the fur trade to be immoral.

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I know the Constitution doesn’t apply to SL, but I think some of the underlying principles should

[2012/01/03 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: SL bans ageplay solely because they are terrified of RL retribution by governments.

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I agree with you!

[2012/01/03 15:45]  William Hawksby: which culture?

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: There tens of thousands in SL who have vibrant economies based on slavery.

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, ageplay isn’t banned; it’s confined

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Lulu Lacrima: Khannea, like the gorean community here

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: what else could conceivably be banned?

[2012/01/03 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why doesn’t the US Constitution apply to SL? SL operates under the laws of California and the US…

[2012/01/03 15:46]  Morgaine Dinova: There is no ageplay because everyone is frightened of the stigma (or worse, criminal record) that can come from it, even when no children are involved at all.

[2012/01/03 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, in cultures of slavery an rape, it’s all consenting adults

[2012/01/03 15:46]  Lulu Lacrima: they could never in a million years engage in such play to such a great extent in the “open” in any other non-pixellated community

[2012/01/03 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes Lulu yet enslavement of people seems to be not that much an issue. Maybe because it’s close to being legal in the first world.

[2012/01/03 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s a big difference

[2012/01/03 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, and I was going to say before I crashed that the swastika has a loooong history as a good luck symbol before the Nazis took it. I once saw an old cowboy’s gun belt and holster with a swastika on it.

[2012/01/03 15:46]  Lulu Lacrima: zo, read my statement from….

[2012/01/03 15:47]  William Hawksby: slavery involves consenting adults?

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, it sure didn’t bring them good luck

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: [15:41] Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, there’s the american Indian, and the subcontinental Indian swastika that supposedly impart positive life force powers

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, yes, it actually is a symbol of peace; which is why the Nazi’s took it; they were going to *impose* world peace by wiping out Communism and the Jews

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: all cultures where killing animals for sport or food is found offensive. Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism are good examples, with more or less emphasis on some countries or others. All in all, that’s a few billion people who find it morally wrong…

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds sticke her tongue out at that

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): He Llegion!

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: There is also slavery here of adults roleplaying they do NOT consent.

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: hey, thanks for backing me up earlier rhia

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima pouts

[2012/01/03 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is interesting that people are offended by a representation of a fox stole, but think nothing of a Zombie chomping on a handful of Human brains…

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the good luck swastika runs clockwise, and the NAzi one, counter-clockwise.

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, you’re welcome

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: lol, that’s b/c there’s no such thing as zombies

[2012/01/03 15:47]  William Hawksby: we’re not there

[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: I’ll get you my pretty! and yer little dawg too!

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: perhaps the word you’re looking for is “Hypocrisy”, not “interesting”

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, good point; I guess part of that is that there is no FL equivalent of zombies munching on brains

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Morgaine Dinova: Of course there are zombie. Congress and Parliament are totally full of them.

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: zombies are real, there is a proof in Bible

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu never say the actual Linden staff, Lulu;)

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: two, even!

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haHA

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Lulu Lacrima: oh, never

[2012/01/03 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ha ha Gwyn, your are so sly!

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn:

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s why I think it’s immersives who are most offended here–they can’t distinguish betwwen SL and RL

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Lulu Lacrima: Extropia

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Vivissection-Class-13/2082022

[2012/01/03 15:48]  Lulu Lacrima: rhi, I suppose you’re right

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, not the brain munching kind of zombie

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: Gwyn is sly like a fox!

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The bible doesn’t mention zombies

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wouldn’t quite agree with you on that, Rhi. The people who are offended are the ones that cannot see the difference between symbolism and actual things, and “feel” they have the “moral right” to tell others about that.

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: those who rise from the dead?

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lulu: like we know what Jesus did all that time after resurrection!

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: oh yes

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now, eating ocelots–nothing wrong with that.

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds giggles at Zoe

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Morgaine Dinova: Agree with Gwyn

[2012/01/03 15:49]  William Hawksby: Right Gwyneth

[2012/01/03 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lulu: don’t say that, I’ll get shot and wrapped around someone’s neck

[2012/01/03 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, I agree with that, Gwyn

[2012/01/03 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: What is the equivalent of the fox scarf with robots or cybernetic creatures? Circuit boards around the neck?

[2012/01/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s not about immersionism vs. augmengtism; there are Puritans on both camps

[2012/01/03 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh I’d love to eat Zobi.

[2012/01/03 15:50]  William Hawksby: the ones who feel morally superior to others like to “protest” what they feel is wrong- and force others to obe7y their distates if they can

[2012/01/03 15:50]  Lulu Lacrima: aww, Gwyn, I wouldn’t mind having you wrapped around my neck! but I respect your desire not to be a pixellated wrap

[2012/01/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ William

[2012/01/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Lulu

[2012/01/03 15:50]  William Hawksby: moral elitism

[2012/01/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I actually wouldn’t mind!

[2012/01/03 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): well, I suppose an augmentist could be offended, but it seems to me that an unerlying assumption is that what happens in SL is “real” and like RL.

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima grins at Gwyn

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: maybe it’s about people who like being offended for any reason?

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would be fun, though, to see furries in SL wearing broken human avatar parts wrapping their necks…

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, I think you’re close to the real truth

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: You’re giving me ideas, Gwyn…

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: some people are just too black and white

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: meaning: black and white thinkers

[2012/01/03 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: So, if people are offended by skinning a fox, are they offended by roleplaying hunters and trappers in sl?

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: You ever hear of that version of the Turing test where you hold a robot upside down and if its protest triggers empathy like the squeeling of a mouse, it passes the test for…I forget what. Being deserving of pity, I guess.

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: It’s not only a 2-category thing though. There are at least 3 categories, actual, symbolic, and not correlated. A fox fur in a virtual world is not necessarily correlated with the death of an animal, not even a virtual animal, and not intended to be symbolic of that either.

[2012/01/03 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: I’ve met a lot of Puritans. Some of them are not that easily offended and they have the genuine, honest belief that what they’re doing — stopping others to do something — is really being done *for their benefit*

[2012/01/03 15:51]  William Hawksby: there is a sense of power in holding what you consider the moral high cround

[2012/01/03 15:52]  William Hawksby: there you go

[2012/01/03 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, they might be, that ‘s why it seems that we might be tempted to use the “Where will it all end?” argument

[2012/01/03 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: scary, huh?

[2012/01/03 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Morgaine: I agree. But how many people can actually tell the difference?

[2012/01/03 15:52]  Lulu Lacrima: extropia, the only turing test I’m aware of is pretty basic: input –> something mysterious happens –> output

[2012/01/03 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh by the way, almost everyone here has engaged in crimes. I could easily get evidence on most of you here, possily with the exceptopn of one or two, and with that evience, iff you ever visited the Iran republic, you would all be in a major legal wrangle. Could actually get you killed. Most of you all have done things in SL that in theory could get you the death penalty in Iran.

[2012/01/03 15:52]  Lulu Lacrima: if the out put = human output

[2012/01/03 15:52]  Lulu Lacrima: well anyway

[2012/01/03 15:52]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: anyone who is willing to think about it can distinguish the categories. Emphasis on *willing*

[2012/01/03 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m tempted to dig out my noob-skin outfit again now.

[2012/01/03 15:53]  William Hawksby: you aint got nuttin on me

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Don’t you dare, Zoe. I like your new look

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: speaking of animal cruelty, anybody have ideas about what to do with the mouse colony that has moved into my kitchen & is eating my 21 year old cat’s food?

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: owning a cd/dvd recorder in poland is, technically, a crime

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re too optimistic, Morgaine I’d put the emphasis on “Thinking”, or, rather, the ability — or lack thereof — of thinking

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: not executed, thankfully

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: have-a-hearts don’t work

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: lemme tell ya

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: *giggle* Poland.

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, there is a sonic device that sometimes scares them off

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: what is worse? Turning up naked in a PG sim, or tuning up wearing the faux fox?

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lulu: get reinforcements — more cats!

[2012/01/03 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: rhia doesn’t work

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: generally people who can’t think are not the problem, those who will not are.

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Lulu Lacrima: gwyn, this cat is too old to tolerate the stress of a new cat

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: what if the faux fox is what stops you from being naked *cough*

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that surely depends on the person viewing both things

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, from the lindens point of view, turning up naked in a PG sim. You don’t get SL suspended for wearing fake fur

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: what I meant, Ivy.

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Morgaine: now with that I fully agree :-.)

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh my that is an interesting experiment. Turning up naked in a PG Vegan sim, well covered with a fox. Are you still naked when you do?

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Lulu Lacrima: Now I’m quite serious! What would you do?

[2012/01/03 15:54]  Lulu Lacrima: about these mice?

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds knows what huntress will wear in a PG sim that wants to ban fur, now

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Morgaine Dinova: All natural SL avies (non-prim) are naked even in PG zones — they just carry a coat of paint made to look like clothing.,

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Why is Rhi not naked, REALLY, in the same sense that fox is not a fox, REALLY. Just representations?

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: poison, Lulu

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: I’ve stuffed all the holes I can find….

[2012/01/03 15:55]  William Hawksby: depends what the fox coveras

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: zo, I’m with ya, just don’t want the kitty to be exposed to the poison

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I am naked.

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d contact an expert exterminator, Lulu… in fact, there are alternatives to poison which also work well, but it takes an expert to set them up properly

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: You need to put in places the cat can’t get into.

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: ex, she’s always naked

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: And I think body paint is cooool.

[2012/01/03 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it’s the social meaning that makes it so; everyone acts like I’m naked; so I feel nake

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: [15:57] Lulu Lacrima: I’ve stuffed all the holes I can find…. <- we believe you

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Lulu, pump the holes with CO2.

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: TRhi, as the manifestation of her real self in this virtual world, is really naked.

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): btw, I am naked in RL at the moment, as if anyone really cares

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Rhi

[2012/01/03 15:56]  William Hawksby: naked people have more credibility

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rhi…. ok, I withdraw my comment then

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, Willliam

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Lulu Lacrima: khannea, things is I clearly haven’t found all the holes

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, it’s an apt one; just coincidentally…

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Morgaine Dinova: I’m beyond naked, I don’t even have painted skin under these prims.

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, are people more justified to say of Rhi, there are some places you are not welcome, unless you wear some clothes? Are they on firmer moral ground than the animal rights guys and this fox?

[2012/01/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and you’re wearing heels, Rhi )

[2012/01/03 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, no, they aren’t; it’s the same kind of principle

[2012/01/03 15:57]  Lulu Lacrima: Gwyn, I live a mile away from the top animal hospital in the country….there’s nothing they can do that I haven’t already done within the realm of animal decency….which sort of bring me around to the main point of what would you do in rl with such an issue? forget the sl fox!

[2012/01/03 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): To ban the so called offensive

[2012/01/03 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, I wonder if you can discuss morals that way at all. It depends on the social context…

[2012/01/03 15:57]  William Hawksby: if you think its immral, it is – esp[ecially if you own the sim

[2012/01/03 15:57]  Morgaine Dinova: Morgaine Dinova takes off head to reveal naked skin

[2012/01/03 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn yes, I am nude, not naked. And I’m merely nude too, as people point out.

[2012/01/03 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: eee!

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: eeek Morgie

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, might does not make right, William; even in SL

[2012/01/03 15:58]  William Hawksby: whats the dif?

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, Rhi!

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Lulu Lacrima: rhi, what’s the difference bet. nude and naked

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: nude is when you leave your shoes on?

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, Gwyn

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: William: something can be moral yet offensive to someone, but yes, in your sim you are the law

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: I have a very erratic relationship with “decency” in SL. Sometimes I love the anarchy that so often prevails here.

[2012/01/03 15:58]  Morgaine Dinova: OK, now here’s a question. Is my avatar naked (just the head for now, so I don’t have to remove more)?

[2012/01/03 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Nude is when you keep your dignity.

[2012/01/03 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds

[2012/01/03 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And I was told that for lot of people, it is easy to forget I’m naked, as I’m *just naked* That is, no symiotics attached.

[2012/01/03 15:59]  Morgaine Dinova: Doesn’t anyone think it odd that I would have to ADD something (a paint resembling skin) to become what passes for “naked” in a PG zone?

[2012/01/03 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: back

[2012/01/03 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): wb. Art

[2012/01/03 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: If I make up a rule for my sim, and you come along and deliberately flaunt that rule, are you in the wrong for breaking it, or am I for making it?

[2012/01/03 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: now we are talking about Naked?

[2012/01/03 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m not sure I’m following, Morgane

[2012/01/03 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha

[2012/01/03 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, could be both

[2012/01/03 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: However… I’ve learned to be wary of deliberately ugly avs — usually griefers. And obvious noob avs. And… I sometimes get annoyed by the avs people bring to otherwise semi-serious discussion events like this one.

[2012/01/03 16:00]  Lulu Lacrima: naked, schmaked

[2012/01/03 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: how so, Rhi?

[2012/01/03 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: Morgaine: not really, since we are talking about perception, not logic

[2012/01/03 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, Rhi, you’re completely right actually. Even though I *usually* have you on my view, I *forget* that your avatar has no clothes on, because of the way you speak; that’s the attitude that confers dignity *to me*, and that’s why I forget that technically you’re naked. So I’d totally agree with the distiction between naked and nude in this context.

[2012/01/03 16:01]  Morgaine Dinova: Rhiannon: my kittie head is more naked than yours — it has no skin at all. So something has to be ADDED before I’m judged naked in a PG zone, not taken off.

[2012/01/03 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if you made a rule that everyone had to be naked, then had a discussion on Islam, and someone came in a full burka,, then you’d both be in the wrong.

[2012/01/03 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Next week: Perception is Reality. What does this mean?

[2012/01/03 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t tempt me, Art

[2012/01/03 16:01]  William Hawksby: clearly nakedness has nothing to do With your head

[2012/01/03 16:01]  Lulu Lacrima: It’s time for my new favorite TV show….The Big Bang Theory….all about asperger’s and situtation comedy…it’s brilliant!

[2012/01/03 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Khan

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean, let’s say somebody came here with a bondage “pet” in tow…. That’s offensive.

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, I see, Morgaine. Yeah, well, avatar physics is considered clothing; I have an alt who is locked into nudity; so she can’t “wear” jiggling boobs

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Ask Bishop Berkely, Art.

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s all a matter of the logic of the language game we’re in

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thougt Ivy does that every week, Zo?

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, she does.

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Lulu Lacrima: BYE!

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Lulu

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, Lulu

[2012/01/03 16:02]  William Hawksby: if the rule is be naked- come naked – otherwise stay away and let the market decide

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: You should do that. Let’s see how it affects the thinking if everyone is wearing naked paint. And invite some people from Islan.

[2012/01/03 16:02]  Morgaine Dinova: Islam*

[2012/01/03 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima kisses and hugs to everyone, naked, nude, swatiskaed, or ballgagged

[2012/01/03 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody did once IM me demanding I either ban Ivy and Toy, or she would leave in disgust. She left, and Ivy and Toy stayed.

[2012/01/03 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Sometime I don’t really want to see. I’ve tried muting and derendering.

[2012/01/03 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my. I should decline though; because I have a self.image which is not confident enough to keep my own dignity if I don’t have any clothes on.

[2012/01/03 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Good for you, Extie

[2012/01/03 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Don’t hate me because I have antlers.

[2012/01/03 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha

[2012/01/03 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: it’s not my goal to offend you, though I’m happy I do

[2012/01/03 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good choice, Extie

[2012/01/03 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller chuckles

[2012/01/03 16:03]  William Hawksby: why are you happy to offend?

[2012/01/03 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s *obviously* your goal to offend people. There’s no other reason to do that.

[2012/01/03 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I notice, Toy is wearing clothes today, though

[2012/01/03 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi FreeSpirit

[2012/01/03 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: there is no other reason you can see, there is a difference

[2012/01/03 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I said ‘they are my friends’ and she said ‘you need a better class of friends, then’. Stupid woman:(

[2012/01/03 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Could someone engage in fairly credible islamic fundamentalist roleplaying here in SL, or would specific RP recruitments of the US then come and LARP a black facilitity on your ass?

[2012/01/03 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: no, just another Puritan

[2012/01/03 16:04]  Morgaine Dinova: Zobeid: That’s patently not true, as the entire very happy naturist community can testify. Offence is the exact opposite of anyone’s intention.

[2012/01/03 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which, hmm, might be a synonym for stupidity

[2012/01/03 16:04]  William Hawksby: a what?

[2012/01/03 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They might investigate, Khannea, but nothing would happen

[2012/01/03 16:05]  Morgaine Dinova: It’s freedom, not offense.

[2012/01/03 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: in the sense that Morgaine was saying earlier: no willingness to think

[2012/01/03 16:05]  FreeSpirit Serenity: love your store my lady ivy

[2012/01/03 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Sophosphrone had a muslim speak at oine her of Salons, and it was the most griefed event I ever saw held at Extropia Core.

[2012/01/03 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: join the Al Andalus community They’ve been around for a few years. It’s run by a Christian lawyer from TExas

[2012/01/03 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Poor Soph was worked off her feet banning all the inclumin ne’er dowells.

[2012/01/03 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon, you are suggesting that SL is ideally suited for clandestine Al Qaeda meetings and recruitment. They only need change the term “US” with Mordor or Coruscant and they’re set.

[2012/01/03 16:06]  Chraeloos: I’ve got to go guys, see you all soon!

[2012/01/03 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!

[2012/01/03 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: see you Chraeloos

[2012/01/03 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): who’s leaving?

[2012/01/03 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh bye, Chreloos

[2012/01/03 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: and thank you FreeSpirit

[2012/01/03 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: So what have we decided? Are we offended or not?

[2012/01/03 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We’ve decided we’re offended by those who tgake offense

[2012/01/03 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But should they be banned?

[2012/01/03 16:08]  Morgaine Dinova: Haha

[2012/01/03 16:08]  Morgaine Dinova: Rhi++

[2012/01/03 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: if you *decide to* take offense in virtual faux stuffed animals, then you are offended

[2012/01/03 16:08]  FreeSpirit Serenity: yw my lady love the avatars and the scify theme at the other stores

[2012/01/03 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds takes a bow

[2012/01/03 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: COULD you be offended, Art? anyone? Not about this, but…something?

[2012/01/03 16:08]  Morgaine Dinova: Offense isn’t really given. Offense is just taken.

[2012/01/03 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: What about people who breed and kill virtual animals by starving them to death?

[2012/01/03 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: +1 Morgaine

[2012/01/03 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: So is this only about fur? Can I sell cans of live pureed cat in SL?

[2012/01/03 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Offense is given. That’s what griefers are all about. And I can’t stand them.

[2012/01/03 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Good Grief

[2012/01/03 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh

[2012/01/03 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: so griefrs offend Zo, at least..

[2012/01/03 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: griefing is intentional, there is a difference

[2012/01/03 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: why does my pronunciation go to hell on this sim?

[2012/01/03 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the only SL thing that offends me is people being intentionally mean to others.

[2012/01/03 16:10]  Morgaine Dinova: If offence could be given, Rhiannon could give me offence with her nudity if she wished. But she cannot, no matter how much she may want to, because I will not take offence.

[2012/01/03 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: Trolling is to Erotica as is Griefing is to Porn.

[2012/01/03 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thank you, Morgaine.

[2012/01/03 16:10]  William Hawksby: I’d be offended if it would make her happy

[2012/01/03 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds blinks at Khannea

[2012/01/03 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is the trilateral commision, Extie, either that or the Bildebergers I think. some sort of conspirators for sure…

[2012/01/03 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s the difference between someone taking offense in that you live without marriage, and going to a church and shitting on the altar

[2012/01/03 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds kisses William on the cheek

[2012/01/03 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: If a griefer turns up wearing the fox, not doing anything but kind of banking on the controversy, is the fox bad in this instance?

[2012/01/03 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hrrmopf

[2012/01/03 16:10]  FreeSpirit Serenity: nudity an offense nudity is art

[2012/01/03 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon only offends me with that endless carrying around of Kant of her.

[2012/01/03 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): FreeSprit, right, esp. in SL

[2012/01/03 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, You Kant take transcendental idealism?

[2012/01/03 16:11]  FreeSpirit Serenity: rl to

[2012/01/03 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: disclaimer: I’m wearing the fox not to offend anyone, but as a statement

[2012/01/03 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes.

[2012/01/03 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: You have spoiled all Kant for me, Rhiannon.

[2012/01/03 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): FreeSpirit

[2012/01/03 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: You Kant touch ‘dis. STOP! HAmmer time…

[2012/01/03 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: …we done?

[2012/01/03 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: I need a pair of Hammertime pants

[2012/01/03 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: You know that’s practically the same thing, Ivy. Any “statement” is practically guaranteed to offend certain factions. Presumably the ones you aimed it at. :/

[2012/01/03 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha

[2012/01/03 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I think that Morgaine has hit the spot. Offense is only in the eyes of the beholder…

[2012/01/03 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: who fancies Art;s topic about perception for the remainder?

[2012/01/03 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nice sum up

[2012/01/03 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Where do you draw the line between “making a statement” and trolling?

[2012/01/03 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ask SaveMe Oh

[2012/01/03 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oe, why make the distinction? Why not just go with “behavior disruptive to a multi-person role playing game” as griefing, and stop it?

[2012/01/03 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: there is a nice bit in “the four horsemen” about that, regarding religious people taking offense when you undermine religion

[2012/01/03 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Is a gay pride parade Trolling, or necessary? And how about if it’s done in a conservative part of Jeruzalem, under the noses of Haredim?

[2012/01/03 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Getting your point across is maing a statement. When your point has been made and you repeat it endlessly that is trolling.

[2012/01/03 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: but that’s not to say you undermine religion just to make the religion bad, it’s just that you can’t really talk about it without someone taking offense

[2012/01/03 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting definition, Extie

[2012/01/03 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: erm

[2012/01/03 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: to make the religious people feel bad*

[2012/01/03 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: probably wrong, though, Art.

[2012/01/03 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: if that makes sense

[2012/01/03 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’d say that so many things are culturally determined… morality is certainly one of those. There are few universals (e.g. don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t lie), the rest is pretty much socially conditioned

[2012/01/03 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: There are always new people to make the point to, I guess.

[2012/01/03 16:15]  William Hawksby: why does one feel compelled to get their “point” across?

[2012/01/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, that’s easy, William: ego!

[2012/01/03 16:16]  William Hawksby: why rub it in pothers faces?

[2012/01/03 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Why not, William? It’s self-expression

[2012/01/03 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: also the fox wasn’t really “aimed” at anyone, in fact, I bet most people who did get offended actually were not the target audience of the fox

[2012/01/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “my opinions are more important than yours”

[2012/01/03 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Because there are people who are WRONG on the Web and NEED to be CORRECTED!

[2012/01/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahah Extie — that’s the right quote for this context!

[2012/01/03 16:16]  William Hawksby: why not just say it- must we get the other to say “UNCLE” to our ewvery thought

[2012/01/03 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: So speaks a veteran of the forums.

[2012/01/03 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: http://xkcd.com/386/

[2012/01/03 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Anyone who thinks there are universal cultural facts, just study cultural anthropology for a semester or two and you will be amazed at how few things humans belive across all cultures…. That was an eye opener for me in College….

[2012/01/03 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: And then there also is a thing called name & shame.

[2012/01/03 16:17]  William Hawksby: VE MUST HAVE ORDER !

[2012/01/03 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What if you’re making a point, and it’s the other one who stops you? aRen’t they making themselves superior to you? Like in sims that don’t allow nudity in their discussiions?

[2012/01/03 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Art

[2012/01/03 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Thaisinha!

[2012/01/03 16:17]  Thaisinha1329: hi

[2012/01/03 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Stories. All cultures throughour all history tell stories.

[2012/01/03 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: are we done on this subject, then?

[2012/01/03 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: I don’t just welcome nudity where I host meetings, I put it on display with poles.

[2012/01/03 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually that’s a good example, Ivy. I don’t see any problem with someone wearing the fox as a genuine fashion accessory. (Although it would probably be in the vintage fashion scene.)

[2012/01/03 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm. We shouldn’t be homo sapiens, but homo faber

[2012/01/03 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Emphasis – DANCE poles.

[2012/01/03 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree, Gwyn.

[2012/01/03 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: The counter-example would be wearing the fox and then going to hang around Luskwood.

[2012/01/03 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing wrong with telling stories! We came up with science thanks to that.

[2012/01/03 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: YOU don’t see it as a problem, but the person next to you might. YOU don’t take offense, the person next to you might. Despite both of you receiving same image.

[2012/01/03 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s all about the audience.

[2012/01/03 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: I saw an older woman with a huge and expensive fur coat on last week, and I think most of the people on the street just though she was clueless. She wanted to be admired, I’m sure…

[2012/01/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Precisely, Zo

[2012/01/03 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can be only intentionally offensive to someone if you know they will take offense in it

[2012/01/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I have no doubt about that

[2012/01/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perceptions

[2012/01/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good definition, Ivy!

[2012/01/03 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t bring doll in bondage to christian sims, I do bring her here because I know it’s generally accepted here

[2012/01/03 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: clueless (like in Art’s example) is not the same thing as being offensive

[2012/01/03 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: But are some tings particularly liable to cause offense?

[2012/01/03 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: bleh

[2012/01/03 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: depends on the social context…

[2012/01/03 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why do you think diplomats train for so long?

[2012/01/03 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: and I don’t take offense in you derendering toy and doll

[2012/01/03 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, it’s almost incredible how they can sit 20 dignitaries from 20 different cultures at the same table and manage that none get offended…

[2012/01/03 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: Elder Jewish woman commemorates her husbands death in a concentration camp by going to the opera in a fur coat once every year. She is not keeping up to date on popular opinions on animal rights. She is then deeply traumatized once she gets firebombed with red paint.

[2012/01/03 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: why would you derender Toy, whoi is looking beautiful today?

[2012/01/03 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I have no choice about going to sims that allow nudity and avoiding those that don’t, as the latter eject or ban me

[2012/01/03 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): One guy found he could derender me and stopped demanding I be banned, though

[2012/01/03 16:21]  Morgaine Dinova: You can intentionally trigger people taking offence. It’s still them taking it though. It is simply impossible to give it if it is not taken.

[2012/01/03 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): He was offended as he was gay and thought female genitalia were disgusting.

[2012/01/03 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What happens to you in SL regarding nudity, Rhi, happens to me in RL regarding smoking

[2012/01/03 16:22]  Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha

[2012/01/03 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Just rez some clothes, Rhi. If I went to a nudist sim, I would take my clothes off. I would not walk around fully clothed just to make a point or whatever.

[2012/01/03 16:22]  Morgaine Dinova: Interesting correlation there, Gwyn

[2012/01/03 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn:

[2012/01/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In any case, Morgaine, your point is still valid.

[2012/01/03 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: I like your female genitalia Rhiannon, but I do prefer you’d shave them. Or I wouldn’t mind you covering that vagina up with a nicely proportioned penis every now and then.

[2012/01/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, offense is just something taken

[2012/01/03 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I find if I do that, then there is a slide–they demand more and more clothes, I end up being banned anyway. At one sim, I was banned for wearing a full burka; the sim admin “saw” me topless

[2012/01/03 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, rez clothes where they are required, of course. IF clothes are optional wear as little as you like.

[2012/01/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rarely something given, even if intentionally

[2012/01/03 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu snortles\

[2012/01/03 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I also find there are hadly any places that are really that worth going to tghatg require clothes. They usually accept me, after a while

[2012/01/03 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Because I’m just naked, they say

[2012/01/03 16:24]  William Hawksby: When in Rome…

[2012/01/03 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And people begin to ignore it; even to the point of tp’ing me to PG sims, as they forget

[2012/01/03 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is where your dignity comes in, Rhi

[2012/01/03 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, Gwyn

[2012/01/03 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: By the way, For those you you who are unfamiliar with the Second Life Artist, SaveMe Oh, her art form is to basically call people out in person at shows who take themselves too seriously. Sometimes this is funny and sometimes this is a trainwreck. Many call her SL’s worst Griefer. Here is her website http://savemeoh.wordpress.com/ Some of her videos are sidesplittingly ironic! heh

[2012/01/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it was just a statement of a fact, Rhi

[2012/01/03 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I can still thank you for it

[2012/01/03 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh I know SaveMe Oh, and I almost had sex with Her IRL.

[2012/01/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure lol

[2012/01/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my Khannea

[2012/01/03 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha really?

[2012/01/03 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Seriously Rhi I am sorry about how you are treated and I think you should have the right to go nude if you want. But I do wonder if you go looking for controversy for reasons that escape me. Are you nude just becaiuse you feel like it, or is it a statement of some kind?

[2012/01/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You almost had sex with almost everybody! haha

[2012/01/03 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah I know her primary alt.

[2012/01/03 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: We extensively interacted for years in Amsterdam.

[2012/01/03 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: In fact

[2012/01/03 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: did Khannea ever have sex with you, Gwyn?

[2012/01/03 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: some spiritual traditions believe that the best way to make people stop taking themselves too seriously is doing exactly what SaveMe Oh is doing

[2012/01/03 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: SaveMe Oh is an art Museum curator in RL I think.

[2012/01/03 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, it’s both. Read my profile for the statement I’m making, but I feel more comfortable this way. Didn’t wear clothes irl until I was s11, and made a living as a nude dancer for years.

[2012/01/03 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Extie, but I’m sure that she ALMOST did. LOL

[2012/01/03 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Rhi went through her pole dancing in the middle of the discussion group phase of course. I do think that was a bit much. :/

[2012/01/03 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: SaveMe Oh was based on me, and a misinterp[retation of an incident where I protested a managerial decission in the Amsterdam sim in 2006.

[2012/01/03 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Well there you go, sweets. Put Gwyn on your list of conquests.

[2012/01/03 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is very interesting Khannea! wowie

[2012/01/03 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: ask her

[2012/01/03 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): i also find it’s a good filter–those who can’t accept me nude usually aren’t worth talking to

[2012/01/03 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh

[2012/01/03 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, well, Bryce liked me doing that…

[2012/01/03 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: It was the turkey hat incident.

[2012/01/03 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that’s an excellent point, Rhi!

[2012/01/03 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And Khannea almost insists on it

[2012/01/03 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, Gwyn

[2012/01/03 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like the concept of self-expression as a filter… mmmh

[2012/01/03 16:28]  Morgaine Dinova: It is a good filter, indeed. A thinking person should be able to rationalize that there is nothing worth taking offence at, even if their cultural upbringing suggests that in RL they should take offence.

[2012/01/03 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if that applies to stuffed foxes as fashion statements too…

[2012/01/03 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Morgaine and totally agrees again

[2012/01/03 16:29]  William Hawksby: why do you want to filter out anuyone but those who think like you?

[2012/01/03 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh I’m agreeing too much with Morgaine again… lol

[2012/01/03 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: It does seem odd that something as natural and beautiful as the female body should cause offense. Not that all female bodies are as beautiful as Rhi. Oh that we were all as blessed with such a physique.

[2012/01/03 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Fuck I pay a lot of money to be able to play this game, and why would I start and go block critical content? Doesn’t make sense to me.

[2012/01/03 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: I wouldn’t say “Those that think like Rhi”. But more like “Those who think beyond ‘Rhi is naked’” which is a difference

[2012/01/03 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William, do you intend to distort what I’m saying?

[2012/01/03 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: tell that to muslim extremists

[2012/01/03 16:29]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: we have arguments sometimes, and they’re not pretty. But yes, far more agreement

[2012/01/03 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: I don’t even block far right US extremists.

[2012/01/03 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: well the btopic seems to have died somewhat, so I am declaring the end..

[2012/01/03 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia: too many centuries of Christian Puritanism shapes that kind of thought

[2012/01/03 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller rolls the credits

[2012/01/03 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: My time is up! (and it is, actually)

[2011/12/27 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!

[2011/12/27 15:31]  Scarp Godenot: The beta version is currently 3.2.5 and a bit more stable than the last build

[2011/12/27 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is…

[2011/12/27 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: ORiGIN OF RELIGION: There was a time when there was no religion on Earth. Now, there is lots of it. Why?

[2011/12/27 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: that was new

[2011/12/27 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: just got a memory allocation error from firestorm

[2011/12/27 15:32]  Prax (praxisfield): was there reall y a time of no religion?

[2011/12/27 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, I know!

[2011/12/27 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Because there are people now!

[2011/12/27 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Prax, there was.

[2011/12/27 15:32]  Prax (praxisfield): when was that?

[2011/12/27 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Some time around 3 million years ago.

[2011/12/27 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: hmmmmm, I would start by saying that religion is an explanation of life. And it seems that humans want to be able to put themselves in context.

[2011/12/27 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: very roughly speaking.

[2011/12/27 15:33]  Chraeloos: what are we defining religion as?

[2011/12/27 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: On this planet, I mean.

[2011/12/27 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Religion is defined as the worship of a supernatural being that can bestow favours and punish bad behaviour.

[2011/12/27 15:34]  Prax (praxisfield): so, humnas invented religion, yes?

[2011/12/27 15:34]  Scarp Godenot: Self awareness needs a context to put the self in, in short.

[2011/12/27 15:34]  Object: Restricted to owner only!

[2011/12/27 15:35]  Scarp Godenot: I would broaden the defninition to all explanatory systems of life. Starting with animism.

[2011/12/27 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: To say humans invented religion makes it sound like a deliberate act. THat is true of scientology but I do not think it is necessarily true of all religions.

[2011/12/27 15:35]  Prax (praxisfield): animism and shamanism – all religions

[2011/12/27 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: I’m afraid it is, though the nature of the invention might not have been the same

[2011/12/27 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: I think religion co evolved with the Frontal Cortex of the brain.

[2011/12/27 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: One might argue it’s more like a virus. A memetic virus.

[2011/12/27 15:36]  Prax (praxisfield): Exti – yes, we are hard wired to look for “religious” explanatiosn, then we make culturla structures ariufnthose explanations

[2011/12/27 15:36]  Chraeloos: Someone wrote the bible and a religion was born. That’s deliberate.

[2011/12/27 15:37]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: But they were only writing down the stories their peple had told for a long time

[2011/12/27 15:37]  Chraeloos: or did the religion come first?

[2011/12/27 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: But some ONE did not write the Bible. It had no individual author.

[2011/12/27 15:37]  Kei Saito: well before there was a single GOD there were many… often related to nature

[2011/12/27 15:37]  Kei Saito: long before the Bible

[2011/12/27 15:37]  Chraeloos: indeed

[2011/12/27 15:38]  Arisia Vita: I like Dan Dennett’s explanation…

[2011/12/27 15:38]  Arisia Vita: Religion has three purposes: to comfort us in our suffering and allay our fear of death, to explain things we cannot otherwise explain, and to encourage group cooperation in the face of trials and enemies. At the root of human belief in gods lies an instinct on a hair trigger: a disposition to attribute agency – beliefs and desires and other mental states – to anything complicated that moves. It’s all a consequence of a “hyperactive agent detection device” – a biological adaptation that allows humans, as well as animals, to react to immediate dangers in the environment. “Snap Out Of It” – Daniel Dennett

[2011/12/27 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Organized Religion comes after belief systems are in place I would say…..

[2011/12/27 15:38]  Chraeloos: In Dennetts explanation it sounds like a government system

[2011/12/27 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: No, I think religion only has one purpose: to find and infect new hosts.

[2011/12/27 15:39]  Kei Saito: I am not certain organized religion is primarily connected to GOD… it seems often related to politics & power

[2011/12/27 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok Ari. So basically Dennett attributes the origin of religion to certain evolved cognitive functions?

[2011/12/27 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma points to a good song about religion –> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiTlmukbPrE

[2011/12/27 15:39]  ergan Breuilly: Hello all!**)

[2011/12/27 15:39]  Scarp Godenot: Organized Religion also contains the ‘Will To Power’ of people over other people.

[2011/12/27 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Helllo!

[2011/12/27 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Violet!

[2011/12/27 15:40]  Kei Saito: afterall the Bible was a ‘selected’ set of stories… many were left out or interpretted to support the church’s goals at the time

[2011/12/27 15:41]  Julieclever: “to comfort us from suffering” is a good point

[2011/12/27 15:41]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zo, and all the grey blobs

[2011/12/27 15:41]  Sophiekittycat: hello

[2011/12/27 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller fixes grey blobs with texture refresh

[2011/12/27 15:41]  Chraeloos: philosophy comforts us from suffering.

[2011/12/27 15:41]  Kei Saito: I think today people feel less connected to a purpose & are searching for one

[2011/12/27 15:42]  Chraeloos: I think people grasp religion as a set of morals that they don’t believe they can set for themselves. It’s like an easy way out

[2011/12/27 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: I think ‘to explain the human condition’ is a more core reason for the existence of religion. With explanation comes security…. i.e. comfort.

[2011/12/27 15:42]  Prax (praxisfield): does anyone here have an issue with the description that we are hard-wired to seek supernatural explanatiosn, and that orgnaised reeligion is then a culturla structure built on that?

[2011/12/27 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s always easier not to think

[2011/12/27 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: How about the idea that there is a greater evolutionary cost to a false negeative than a false positive? If you naturally think ‘the bush moved for no reason’ a predator will eat you ‘but if you think ‘the bush moved because some agent made it move’ you survive to procreate. So our minds naturally see intention everywhere.

[2011/12/27 15:42]  Kei Saito: we have more time to wonder about such things now that alot of what once was work is now not something we have to worry about

[2011/12/27 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: Cultural mores exist whether religion is present or not.

[2011/12/27 15:42]  Chraeloos: What about life after death. I think that’s a convincing thing to support a want for security

[2011/12/27 15:43]  Chraeloos: I like that Extie, but why would they create a system so definted for just that purpose?

[2011/12/27 15:44]  Chraeloos: But not individual morals, Scarp

[2011/12/27 15:44]  Julieclever: the idea of impermanence makes some pple suffer

[2011/12/27 15:44]  Object: Restricted to owner only!

[2011/12/27 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Life after death has to do with’permanent person presence’. The understanding we all have that a person you cannot see or hear jas not disappreared but is ‘somewhere doing something’. We just naturally assume the deceased is ‘somewhere doing something’ because we never evolved to understand death actually entails the disappearance of the self.

[2011/12/27 15:45]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sorry, all…my connection’s dead in the water tonight; take care, and g’night and stuff

[2011/12/27 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: aww. Bye.

[2011/12/27 15:45]  Sophiekittycat: bye violet

[2011/12/27 15:45]  Chraeloos: bye

[2011/12/27 15:45]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: how do we know the self disappears though? maybe there actually is something after death

[2011/12/27 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Vio!

[2011/12/27 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Dreams about dead people are the worst.

[2011/12/27 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: Charaeloos, individual morals ARE cultural mores. There is no difference.

[2011/12/27 15:46]  Prax (praxisfield): the evidence for surviving death is slender

[2011/12/27 15:46]  Chraeloos: I disagree, some people will believe things that their culture does not.

[2011/12/27 15:47]  Julieclever: we cant know if self disappears

[2011/12/27 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Well the dogma of neuroscience is that you need a working cerebral cortex in order to have propositional knowledge of any kind. Since it stops working at death you cannot experience being dead.

[2011/12/27 15:47]  Kei Saito: dogma is not always correct

[2011/12/27 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: Chraeloos, a culture does not believe only a single thing, but a range of things.

[2011/12/27 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, but something *of* you survives, at least for a while.

[2011/12/27 15:48]  Julieclever: so we are the cerebral cortex

[2011/12/27 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Your blog posts survive!

[2011/12/27 15:48]  Chraeloos: Sure Scarp, but religion sets forth the basis of right vs. wrong. People who don’t follow religion are more likely to create their own set of right/wrong beliefs.

[2011/12/27 15:49]  Kei Saito: I agree with Chraeloos, mores are not necessarily morals

[2011/12/27 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: Culture sets those things, Chraeloos, religion copies those things.

[2011/12/27 15:49]  Prax (praxisfield): the mind in the brain – brain gets damaged, so does the mind

[2011/12/27 15:49]  ergan Breuilly: la religion est venue avec la pensée humaine ; l’hédonisme par exemple, jouir de la vie et especially faire jouir les autres too!

[2011/12/27 15:49]  ergan Breuilly: religion came with human thought hedonism for example, enjoy life and to enjoy other Especially too!

[2011/12/27 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we are, Julie. A person remains that same person if they move to another location, or if they have a limb or organ transplant. But if they had a BRAIN transplant they would not be the same person at all. So the self IS in some mysterious way the brain.

[2011/12/27 15:50]  Chraeloos: Culture does not set those things necessarily. Think today, people in western culture follow eastern religions which hold a different set of ideals

[2011/12/27 15:50]  Julieclever: I agree

[2011/12/27 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: People don’t accept ideas from only one culture, but from those they choose nowadays. But they are still accepting cultural values, as they didn’t invent them.

[2011/12/27 15:50]  ergan Breuilly: une façon de vivre en harmonie avec les autres!*

[2011/12/27 15:50]  ergan Breuilly: a way of living in harmony with others! *

[2011/12/27 15:51]  Prax (praxisfield): some eastern religiousn expression are not so far from western neurosience – Zen for exmaple

[2011/12/27 15:51]  ergan Breuilly: pensée grecque!

[2011/12/27 15:51]  ergan Breuilly: Greek thought!

[2011/12/27 15:51]  Chraeloos: No Scarp, but there is a difference between culture and religion. People who follow a culture believe that it is correct in every aspect. People who don’t but that follow cultural morals are able to pick and choose.

[2011/12/27 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: so polytheism then..what might explain its origin?

[2011/12/27 15:52]  Prax (praxisfield): polytheism predates monotheism

[2011/12/27 15:52]  Julieclever: our projections

[2011/12/27 15:52]  ergan Breuilly: there’s no culture without moral!*

[2011/12/27 15:52]  ergan Breuilly: There’s no moral culture Without! *

[2011/12/27 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: For example I don’t define myself as religious, BUT I have many of the cultural values that many religions share. I get these from my life experience of the culture that educated me.

[2011/12/27 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I think religion hijacked morality.

[2011/12/27 15:53]  Julieclever: sure

[2011/12/27 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: Religion didn’t hijack morality, it just shares the morality of the culture it is in.

[2011/12/27 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: mores

[2011/12/27 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp is that because certain moral vaues and or beliefs owe their existence to evolutionary drives that predate any religion?

[2011/12/27 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: It hijacked it!

[2011/12/27 15:53]  Chraeloos: Right Scarp, that’s all I’m saying, is that people without religion borrow different morals, but religion supplies the morals indefinitely. It’s a way for people who either don’t have the means or the will to explore other systems.

[2011/12/27 15:54]  Kei Saito: so you find religion as moral?

[2011/12/27 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: Thou Shalt not kill wasn’t invented by western religion, it came about by tens of thousands of years of experience that it is not a survivable trait for a group to have.

[2011/12/27 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: the problem with most religions it that their morality is just old

[2011/12/27 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Religions have claimed to be the source and justification of morality, thereby disparaging the non-relgious as being amoral. That’s unfair. They should never have gotten away with it.

[2011/12/27 15:54]  Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy haha, at least in most cases

[2011/12/27 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: morality is a fluid thing, relative

[2011/12/27 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW I personally believe there is such a variety of religious belief that everyone is bound to find at least one theu can identify with. I for one rather like the transhuman branch of Mormonism.

[2011/12/27 15:55]  Kei Saito: so you do not believe in a basic right & wrong?

[2011/12/27 15:55]  Sophiekittycat: why religion could not be ethic , there is a difference between how a religion can be corrupted and the idea of religion

[2011/12/27 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kei: of course not

[2011/12/27 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: Right and Wrong is present in all cultures throughout history. It is not an invention of religion.

[2011/12/27 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: hello hercimus

[2011/12/27 15:55]  Sophiekittycat: hello

[2011/12/27 15:55]  Chraeloos: I never said it was, Scarp.

[2011/12/27 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: But does religion serve to convey right or wrong?

[2011/12/27 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Extie, religion is not about “identifying with” something. It’s about faith. It’s about believing that your way is right and everybody else is wrong because you’ve been taught you’re *supposed* to believe that.

[2011/12/27 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: well, pigs are crap apparently

[2011/12/27 15:56]  Sophiekittycat: i doubt that it was a time without religion , most humans would feel abandonned in a world that offert no hope

[2011/12/27 15:56]  Chraeloos: I’m merely saying that religion was a system set up in order for people to be “dedicated” to a set of morals, in a way

[2011/12/27 15:56]  Chraeloos: Primitives were unable to grasp the idea of religion, as far as we know (correct me if I’m wrong)

[2011/12/27 15:57]  Sophiekittycat: religion existed because humans need to have hope in something, to think that there is a goal in life else just being and dying

[2011/12/27 15:57]  Kei Saito: how do you know that?

[2011/12/27 15:57]  Julieclever: the sun was the God for them

[2011/12/27 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: But I know religious people who do not hold such fundamentalist views, Zo.

[2011/12/27 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Praise Celestia!

[2011/12/27 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: religion existed, and exists, because it’s engineered to prevail

[2011/12/27 15:57]  Sophiekittycat: what are primitives ?

[2011/12/27 15:58]  Chraeloos: primitives are ancient people, those who were “less evolved” than we are now.

[2011/12/27 15:58]  Sophiekittycat: old humans had same cognitive and mind than us and we have trace of their religions we just not know their religions but we found statues

[2011/12/27 15:58]  ergan Breuilly: maybe some croyances? dans le feu? le ciel? la nature!*

[2011/12/27 15:58]  ergan Breuilly: Some beliefs maybe? in the fire? the sky? Nature! *

[2011/12/27 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: you will believe in jesus, OR YOU WILL BURN IN HELL AND SUFFER UNBEARABLE PAIN FOREVER

[2011/12/27 15:58]  Kei Saito: & maybe one day we will find they were right & we are not

[2011/12/27 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: tada, an idea that survives 2000 years

[2011/12/27 15:58]  Object: Restricted to owner only!

[2011/12/27 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: +1 Ivy

[2011/12/27 15:59]  Sophiekittycat: jesus never said it himself it is men who said this ivy

[2011/12/27 15:59]  Chraeloos: Ah, well at some stage of our history humans did not have a religious system that we know of, as Extie said around 3million years ago

[2011/12/27 15:59]  ergan Breuilly: les premières croyances étaient très primaires!

[2011/12/27 15:59]  ergan Breuilly: initial beliefs were very elementary!

[2011/12/27 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: According to The Book, he actually said a *lot* of stuff like that.

[2011/12/27 15:59]  Kei Saito: how do we know that?

[2011/12/27 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: yes, well, Jesus was probably some poor guy who just wanted to do tables like his dad

[2011/12/27 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Really comes off as quite an egomaniac.

[2011/12/27 15:59]  Sophiekittycat: we mistake between the idea of religion as a philosophy of hope and the idea of religion asa tool of power used by some men

[2011/12/27 15:59]  Chraeloos: Agreed Sophie

[2011/12/27 16:00]  Chraeloos: Having explanations for the world around us is different than believing in a higher being or entity

[2011/12/27 16:00]  Sophiekittycat: all ideologies all philosophies were warped and used for power , should we live as robots ina world without philosophy or ideologies ?

[2011/12/27 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: And those types are still around even today, as per example of David Koresh.

[2011/12/27 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Primitive is a relativer term. Put any one of us in the Congo and we would die withing a week or two, desite being surrounded by resources that a native of the rainforest is educated to know how to use.

[2011/12/27 16:00]  Prax (praxisfield): some of the very first paintings in caves show a supernatural expression of aniimals – I doubt there was ever a time of no religion, perhaps just an undeveloped one

[2011/12/27 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, David Koresh himself isn’t actually still around, but you know how that went.

[2011/12/27 16:00]  Sophiekittycat: as far than science searched we find ideas of religions in statues in burial rituals

[2011/12/27 16:00]  Sophiekittycat: there is no know civilisation without spirituality

[2011/12/27 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: yet

[2011/12/27 16:01]  ergan Breuilly: yes true! but rituals are not from religion?*

[2011/12/27 16:01]  ergan Breuilly: yes true! goal rituals are not from religion? *

[2011/12/27 16:01]  Chraeloos: What about before civilization, though?

[2011/12/27 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: spiritual is kind of a vague term.

[2011/12/27 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: Yes Sophie, the “will to power” of religious leaders is a major reason for the prevalence of religion over time. AND it is a separate issure from the ‘explanatory’ function of religion.

[2011/12/27 16:01]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: what about the idea of ancestor worship, ordinary people transform into powerful spirits after death?

[2011/12/27 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’m very spiritual -> http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/spirits/img1055320727.jpeg

[2011/12/27 16:02]  Kei Saito: I think we have lost the original question… why more religion today?

[2011/12/27 16:02]  Sophiekittycat: we mess between organised religions as we have know, and believings, not all religions need church or hierarchy

[2011/12/27 16:02]  Chraeloos: lol Ivy

[2011/12/27 16:02]  Sophiekittycat: some religions can only exist in people heart not in rituals

[2011/12/27 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: As I mentioned before, dreaming about somebody after they’ve died is a powerful and unsettling experience.

[2011/12/27 16:02]  ergan Breuilly: !*

[2011/12/27 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Well no the original question is to do with the origin of religion.

[2011/12/27 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: So it’s very easy to imagine how a mythos of some sort could arise from that.

[2011/12/27 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: how about we focus on how to stop people from dying rather than building more churches?

[2011/12/27 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we know why there is lots of it. It is a good meme.

[2011/12/27 16:03]  Kei Saito: There was a time when there was no religion on Earth. Now, there is lots of it. Why?

[2011/12/27 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kei: yes, before, there were no humans

[2011/12/27 16:03]  Kei Saito: that was the question

[2011/12/27 16:03]  Kei Saito: Now, there is lots of it. Why?

[2011/12/27 16:04]  Prax (praxisfield): the origina of religion seems straighforward, what mihgt be the next step?

[2011/12/27 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: because now there are humans

[2011/12/27 16:04]  Sophiekittycat: ivy mankind without philosophy without spirituality and just science would make us be bots, it is because humans can dream or hope that we have art that we have community moments, else we would just be hopeles stools

[2011/12/27 16:04]  Sophiekittycat: tools oops

[2011/12/27 16:04]  Chraeloos: lol

[2011/12/27 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok but I am the chairperson so if I say the discussion is about the origins of religion, that is what the discussion is about:)

[2011/12/27 16:04]  Kei Saito: being human does not necessarily mean I am religious

[2011/12/27 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: who said without philosophy? I like philosophy, as much as impractical it is

[2011/12/27 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: religion is a philosophy

[2011/12/27 16:05]  Kei Saito: so more people does not mean more religion

[2011/12/27 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: and a square is a rectangle

[2011/12/27 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: you cant remove to someone their beliefs their hopes

[2011/12/27 16:05]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: instead of individual shamans sharing their visions, religions were written down and fixed

[2011/12/27 16:05]  Chraeloos: Different types of people, Kei.

[2011/12/27 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: True Kei…But some would argue it means you have a tendency towards religious beliefs.

[2011/12/27 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t care much for philosophy either.

[2011/12/27 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: religion come from this from hope from fear from desire that it exist a goal something that will save us or give us a way

[2011/12/27 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: No? Strange. I love it!

[2011/12/27 16:06]  Kei Saito: why would that tendancy be there?

[2011/12/27 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: that is what we are trying to establish:)

[2011/12/27 16:06]  Kei Saito: so you are assuming it is true

[2011/12/27 16:06]  Prax (praxisfield): hardwired to seek religious explanations, but at a deeper level, perhaps we are just looking for parents

[2011/12/27 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: So my short answers to why there is religion are 1) explanation of context of self aware life 2) cultural cohesion as a survival value 3) a vehicle to obtain wealth and power over others.

[2011/12/27 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: well thank goodness I’ve a birth certificate then!

[2011/12/27 16:07]  Chraeloos: For belonging, Prax?

[2011/12/27 16:07]  ergan Breuilly: D’après les textes, les religions sont nées avec les prophètes!

[2011/12/27 16:07]  ergan Breuilly: According to the text, religions are born with the prophets!

[2011/12/27 16:07]  Prax (praxisfield): for beloging and protection

[2011/12/27 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: You know I think religion increases fear of death. To an atheist being dead is exactloy like life before you were born. That was not bad it was just…nothing. ONTH if religion is true maybe when you die you burn in hell!

[2011/12/27 16:08]  Jennys Willful: but only if you deserve to…

[2011/12/27 16:08]  Chraeloos: That’s meant to be motivation, though

[2011/12/27 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: atheists might not fear death, but I don’t think they want it

[2011/12/27 16:08]  Sophiekittycat: imagine that you look at the depth of the space , of immensity, you are small and you know that you will die, dont you want some hope, dont you wish that something exist far over you ? religion come from the fear of death and unknow, from the hope of life the hope of having a mother like or father like figure that will lead us and save us

[2011/12/27 16:08]  Kei Saito: depends on the religion…

[2011/12/27 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t at least

[2011/12/27 16:08]  Julieclever: a hope for fear, a proto philosophy, maybe religions was that in the beginning

[2011/12/27 16:08]  Kei Saito: I think they fear it as much as anyone

[2011/12/27 16:09]  Kei Saito: it is non existance as we know it

[2011/12/27 16:09]  Sophiekittycat: i dont belive in god but trust me i am jealous of true believers they dont fear they dont despare as me i fear

[2011/12/27 16:09]  Kei Saito: it is the unkown

[2011/12/27 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: precisely, it’s just silly and childish to believe in

[2011/12/27 16:09]  Kei Saito: well that was rather higher than though

[2011/12/27 16:09]  Sophiekittycat: a proto philosophy ? for greeks philosophy was a branch of metaphysic a branch of religion study

[2011/12/27 16:09]  Sophiekittycat: religion is part of phylosophie

[2011/12/27 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: But why fear it? I will never die. It is not something that can ever be part of my subjective experience. There will never be a time when Ican say ‘oh it has happened. I am dead’.

[2011/12/27 16:10]  Prax (praxisfield): the relationship to a god and the relationship of a small child to a parent is just too similart o be a coincidence

[2011/12/27 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can walk out at night, stare at the clear sky, realize how small I am in the universe, and fear is definitely not on the list of my feelings

[2011/12/27 16:10]  Prax (praxisfield): but you do fear some thigns Ivy!

[2011/12/27 16:10]  Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy

[2011/12/27 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Prax: well, yes, I fear religion LOL

[2011/12/27 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: I think evolutionarily, self awareness, which we think comes from the development of the frontal cortex of the brain, was the thing that happened that led to religion developing…?

[2011/12/27 16:11]  Sophiekittycat: because we are beings of emotions and we hope of something better than to end as worm food, because we are beings of ethic and we need someone who give us the hint that our ethic is a good one

[2011/12/27 16:11]  Chraeloos: That’s a good point, Scarp.

[2011/12/27 16:11]  Prax (praxisfield): I think we mihgt be getting grown up0 enought to define our own morals

[2011/12/27 16:12]  Sophiekittycat: and religion is not better or worst than being atheist , believing make you be idiot or smart , it is how you believe the point

[2011/12/27 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: I disagree with Ivy. The size of the universe and everything named within it exists because our minds established theories and stuff to account for it. Far from being insignificant we are the means by which Universe understrands itself.

[2011/12/27 16:12]  Kei Saito: I would hate to think of a world where every individual determined right & wrong

[2011/12/27 16:12]  Prax (praxisfield): wow Exti – that sounds religious

[2011/12/27 16:12]  ergan Breuilly: les religions sont basées sur des textes, des écrits, some strorytellings! La race humaine a peur du vide, de l’inconnu, la religion comble ce vide!*

[2011/12/27 16:12]  ergan Breuilly: religions are based on texts, writings, Some strorytellings! The human race has fear of heights, the unknown, religion fills this gap! *

[2011/12/27 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: It is the fundamental prnciple of a religion I am helping to engineer, yes.

[2011/12/27 16:13]  Sophiekittycat: famous scientifics are people of faith, science and rationality are not opposite of religion

[2011/12/27 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: ha! But that is precisely the reason why I don’t fear being “small” (in simple physical terms)

[2011/12/27 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: (( or material if you wish ))

[2011/12/27 16:13]  Kei Saito: small is not always a good thing

[2011/12/27 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, sorry Ivy I misunderstood you.

[2011/12/27 16:13]  Kei Saito: ask an ant

[2011/12/27 16:13]  Julieclever: some of us dont have this gap to be fullfilled by religion,maybe

[2011/12/27 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: I would but ants have no language.

[2011/12/27 16:14]  Kei Saito: oh they do, you just dont understand it

[2011/12/27 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: All of human history has led to the ‘development of morals’, or, cultural mores as they are called by anthropologists and sociologists. This trial and error development has happened in thousands of ways that make it possible for large numbers of people to live together and survive. We are the end of a long long process. We don’t just ‘invent’ our mores. We adopt the ones we find to be successful for us……

[2011/12/27 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: at least not one I understand.

[2011/12/27 16:14]  Prax (praxisfield): I am not palnning to be an end

[2011/12/27 16:14]  Sophiekittycat: we are not the end we are part of a long story that i hope is not yet finished

[2011/12/27 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: I hope it has no ending only endless evolution.

[2011/12/27 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: We are the end ‘at the moment’ but not the literal end.

[2011/12/27 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: Constant flux.

[2011/12/27 16:15]  Prax (praxisfield): dialectical change . . . . . .onwards

[2011/12/27 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller gets flashbacks of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw

[2011/12/27 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Is there any reason to suppose religion might actually NOT have had an origin?

[2011/12/27 16:18]  Kei Saito: doesnt everything have origin

[2011/12/27 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: No.

[2011/12/27 16:18]  Kei Saito: example

[2011/12/27 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: religion came with first human fear , first human dream, first human hope, first human need for an answer

[2011/12/27 16:19]  Sophiekittycat: religion came when humanity got a mind able of abstraction

[2011/12/27 16:19]  CullenBR: hi?

[2011/12/27 16:19]  Kei Saito: what if GOD is a part of us?

[2011/12/27 16:19]  Julieclever: abstraction to escape fear

[2011/12/27 16:19]  Sophiekittycat: god can be a part of us as we are a part of god after it is matter of personnal beliefs

[2011/12/27 16:19]  Kei Saito: soul is born within us

[2011/12/27 16:20]  Prax (praxisfield): a little poem, relevant I hope : I’m dead and God meets me at the end of the tunnel of light.

 She looks like the lady who served up school dinners when I was kid. { with thanks – “Time Bandits” }

 God : “Well Dave, how was it for you?”

 Dave : “Well, God, I liked the love bit but didn’t like the suffering bit. Was that really necessary?”

 God : “Yes”

 Dave : ” Just yes? Isn’t there some big cosmic reason for the suffering stuff?”

 God : “I guess so. Let me see . . . it’s been along time . . . . Oh yes, something to do with free will.”

 Dave : ” Ok, I have been dying to ask you something, if you’ll excuse the pun. If you made me, who made you?”

 God : “You did”

 Dave : “I knew you were going to say that”.

[2011/12/27 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, and as we learn not to fear, as we learn that achieving our dreams comes without magic, as we learn that we are not hopeless if we work for it, and as we find answers via science – we should, eventually, grow up from religion

[2011/12/27 16:20]  Kei Saito: oh I disagree

[2011/12/27 16:21]  Kei Saito: we do not always get what we work for

[2011/12/27 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: well Kei, Spinoza argues that there had to be something that is ’cause of itself’ Someting whose very nature it is to exist. You cannot explain its origin in terms of any prior cause. It just…IS!

[2011/12/27 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: I would like to make the point that religion doesn’t actually need the concept of God. There are many examples.

[2011/12/27 16:21]  Chraeloos: Ivy I think you’re right, that is the next stage

[2011/12/27 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: haha, nice punchline Prax!

[2011/12/27 16:21]  Julieclever: finding the “God” within

[2011/12/27 16:21]  Sophiekittycat: grow up from religion ? ivy you mistake honest religious feelings and what tv priest in usa or what popes or fanatics made of it

[2011/12/27 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kei: point taken, though I meant “we” as a specie in general, not individuals

[2011/12/27 16:21]  Kei Saito: & what makes Spinoza so special?

[2011/12/27 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: no, not at all, I despise *all* religions

[2011/12/27 16:22]  Sophiekittycat: when you watch something you need to watch at the good sides as much than of bad sides or you are a fanatic of the other side

[2011/12/27 16:22]  Her Majesty Queen Heather Iwish (heather.iwish): seems to me that religions were created in an attempt to control the masses at the time

[2011/12/27 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: I find every single religion on the planet to be utterly useless if not dangerous

[2011/12/27 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m with Ivy. I’m hoping we’ll eventually become enlightened and empowered enough for religion to fade away.

[2011/12/27 16:22]  Chraeloos: Religion is good. It serves a purpose in spreading hope and good morals. But as a society we will eventually move on, if you look at how far we’ve come it’s bound to happen.

[2011/12/27 16:22]  Prax (praxisfield): Ivy – Zen is good – has much ot offer

[2011/12/27 16:23]  Kei Saito: perhaps when we become enlightened we will find the opposite is true… we are not so smart or capable on our own

[2011/12/27 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: I have my doubts about religion spreading good morals. :/

[2011/12/27 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: You have heard of him even though he lived in the 1600s. I would be VERY chuffed if people still remember me and my philosophy centuries after I cease to exist.

[2011/12/27 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, catholic church has much to offer to, doesn’t make it true

[2011/12/27 16:23]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: Ivy, so you take as a given there is no life after death or greater growth of souls beyond earth life, and work backward from there?

[2011/12/27 16:23]  Sophiekittycat: religion feeling is a good thing when you respect others, all is matter of tolerance

[2011/12/27 16:23]  Chraeloos: Well, that’s the “idea”

[2011/12/27 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: Religion become dangerous when those who believe seek to force their will on others. This is all too common.

[2011/12/27 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rev: I take it given that there is no life after death, and I comment on growing souls because I don’t believe in souls as such, period

[2011/12/27 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: And that’s the other thing…. Whether religion is useful is a different question from whether it’s *true*.

[2011/12/27 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: can’t comment*

[2011/12/27 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Should we devote ourselves to useful lies?

[2011/12/27 16:24]  Julieclever: “religion spreading good moral” is a mith

[2011/12/27 16:24]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: Ivy, sure, let’s say personalities, unique viewpoints, selves

[2011/12/27 16:24]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: instead of souls

[2011/12/27 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp could you have a religion that explicitely forbids that?

[2011/12/27 16:24]  Chraeloos: Why do you say that, Julie?

[2011/12/27 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Soul persists as a useful shorthand for all the qualities that make a PERSON.

[2011/12/27 16:25]  Kei Saito: organized religion is not necessarily spiritualness

[2011/12/27 16:25]  Julieclever: only look at google, what they had done in many countries

[2011/12/27 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: I think there are a few like that Extie, though the belivers seem to want to force the subject anyway. Taoism seems to be like that.

[2011/12/27 16:25]  Chraeloos: Sure Julie, but that’s the individuals perception of the religion, not the religion itself

[2011/12/27 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that a religion or a philosophgical way of life?

[2011/12/27 16:26]  Jennys Willful: the problem with organized religion is, any system that takes the right of self-determination away from the individual is necessarily corrupt… so that wipes out religion, but it aslso wipes out politics, the Boy Scouts and the library book club

[2011/12/27 16:26]  Sophiekittycat: religion for me is before all a matter of privacy intimacy and heart , after it is just power, rituals or deformation

[2011/12/27 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Wait, is Google a religion now? Hmmm…. Dominion over all knowledge. “Don’t be Evil!” Maybe it is!

[2011/12/27 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rev: well, then I believe in improving ourselfs as such, even beyond the mere biological life on earth, but I’m afraid that can be achieved only with engineering

[2011/12/27 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: the latter at least

[2011/12/27 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: Buddhism ‘in theory’ seeks not to force itself on others, but in practice is all about severe enforcement of practice.

[2011/12/27 16:26]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: each of us has a unique history, set of memories, way of thinking. Maybe we just cry out against the total loss of something so unique as a human life

[2011/12/27 16:27]  Prax (praxisfield): hmmm we cry outg at the loss of only some humand life

[2011/12/27 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Ivy I say we should worship science and technology over God because it is more reliable in revealing truth to us and performing ‘miracles’ like healing the sick and making the lame walk.

[2011/12/27 16:27]  Julieclever: individuals are not apart the beliefs they choose

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Chraeloos: Agreed Extie

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Why do we need to worship anything, Extie?

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Her Majesty Queen Heather Iwish (heather.iwish): religion is nothingmore than some control freaks damanding money and telling you whaht to and not to do

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Well..venerate, then.

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: Zobeid: Wikipedia is a religion now! haha Give Tithing or we will die!

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean aside from Celestia of course.

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Kei Saito: when all is said & done, & I rationalize & play my mind games, there is something better that lives inside me… something I aspire to be on a much deeper level

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Sophiekittycat: then science would be a religion

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rev: surely, every death is a loss. But I’d rather focus on longevity and defeating death (at least the death “of aging” as such) rather then delude myself with false hopes

[2011/12/27 16:28]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: Ivy, I’m agnostic. It seems possible to me if consciousness is some kind of energy, like a wave or radio signal, it might live on after death of the brain. Maybe the brain doesn’t create consciousness, just records it.

[2011/12/27 16:28]  Sophiekittycat: the problem is that we oppose religion and science but nothing oppose them

[2011/12/27 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: Science, be definition is NOT a religion. Only the religious think that it is.

[2011/12/27 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: by

[2011/12/27 16:29]  Sophiekittycat: there is people of faith among a lot of scientifics because both are not opposite

[2011/12/27 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Consciousness is more like entropy than energy.

[2011/12/27 16:29]  Sophiekittycat: science can become a religion once you begin to worship it

[2011/12/27 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Because the universe is a heat engine, and we’re part of it.

[2011/12/27 16:30]  Her Majesty Queen Heather Iwish (heather.iwish): agnostic means you believe there is a good. and you dont need a temple or preacher to guid e you

[2011/12/27 16:30]  Chraeloos: Or maybe the US government as a stargate and we are speaking of religious beings that are real people. haha

[2011/12/27 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: we feed on the energy slope that is entropy.

[2011/12/27 16:30]  Sophiekittycat: the french revolution created a reason godess and embodiment of science and rationality in the rituals of religion

[2011/12/27 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: Science is changeable and never held firmly, everything is up for debate and nothing is stable, this is the exact opposite of religion.

[2011/12/27 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rev: I’d rather think that consciousness is more like software than energy. Obviously I can’t provide you with any proof or even a clear definition of what a consciousness actually *is*.

[2011/12/27 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Surely that was more symbolic, rather than meant to be taken literally, Sophie.

[2011/12/27 16:31]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: I believe good and evil can be defined by harm done or help done, no deity required

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Kei Saito: so if it does no harm it is good?

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Kei Saito: & vice versa?

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Sophiekittycat: good or bad are ethic concepts no need of a god for it and there is religions without concept of evil or good

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: Good and Evil is an invention of religion. Good and bad an invention of culture. There IS a difference.

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: what if it does harm that is good?

[2011/12/27 16:32]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: it’s not evil if it does n harm

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Prax (praxisfield): no deity required – end of.

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK we are nearly done. Closing statements then…religion owes its origin to…?

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: stupidity

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Dreams!

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Her Majesty Queen Heather Iwish (heather.iwish): who decides what is “good” or ” evil”?

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Prax (praxisfield): looking for mum and dad

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Sophiekittycat: to human hopes and fears,

[2011/12/27 16:32]  Kei Saito: GOD

[2011/12/27 16:33]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: networked organizations evolving out of shaman visions imho

[2011/12/27 16:33]  Julieclever: Alan Wallace makes a link between science and tibetan beliefs, proposing the study of consciousness

[2011/12/27 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: OK our time is up!

[2011/12/13 15:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): jayda

[2011/12/13 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: god..

[2011/12/13 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: There is a term from roman ages, and it’s called Nexum

[2011/12/13 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn waves and tries to se+e Khannea’s outfit

[2011/12/13 15:31]  Zobeid Zuma: I can’t see you, Khannea.

[2011/12/13 15:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): now how did my phone get naysayers out of jayda?

[2011/12/13 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Nexum was a form of financial slavery

[2011/12/13 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: prepare yourself, Gwyn;)

[2011/12/13 15:32]  Jayda Ferrentino: :/

[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: I have been using the term “Nexual Predators”.

[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Who might have an idea what I would mean with that?

[2011/12/13 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: not me.

[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Ok! here is the topic

[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: What happened in the world the last years? Is there someone to blame things are going economically ‘pretty much wrong’? Or is the system broken? Or is the human demoxratic system simply ill-equipped to deal with populist politicians promissing everyone in to irresolvable public sector debt?

[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: A week or two ago I joked to extropia, let’s do a topic on the Euro collapsing with the title “”. Since two weeks there have actually been subtle macro-economic changes that prompted me to rephrase the topic as “”. Care to discuss why this change in topic (in less than two weeks!) would be prudent?

[2011/12/13 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Old topic: ‘the eruo is doomed. what does that mean for the rest of the world

[2011/12/13 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma does not understand these titles…

[2011/12/13 15:33]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Formatting H. passed away?

[2011/12/13 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: New choice of terms was:

[2011/12/13 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Violet.

[2011/12/13 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the titles show up as “” to me)

[2011/12/13 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: ” As the euro is mostly certain to desintegrate, what are the geopolitical implications”

[2011/12/13 15:33]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): (Sorry for the predictable delay, I have massive lag right now)

[2011/12/13 15:34]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, that’s sad

[2011/12/13 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: not sure if it will disintegrate

[2011/12/13 15:34]  Jayda Ferrentino: that europe is screwed

[2011/12/13 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: I have been hearing a lot of commentators talk about “the collapse of the euro”. One can safely say we are in a territory where the general population or electorate has absolutely no easy explanation what the fuck is happening. In Europe the people (and please let’s not again label them sheeple) are blaming lazy Greeks, which is probably an oversimplication and an easy cop-out blaming the victim strategy allowing the same voters to not ask what their own blame in this collective geopolitical macroeconomic clusterfuck is.

[2011/12/13 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: it will stay somehow

[2011/12/13 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: I feel old. I remember when the Euro began, and all the panic in the USA because Europe was going to economically steamroll over us.

[2011/12/13 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: europe is less screwed than US tyvm

[2011/12/13 15:35]  Jayda Ferrentino: lolll really?

[2011/12/13 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh wow Zo, I had no idea….

[2011/12/13 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: I have a few questions for you to debate on, and feel free to pick and choose? Is it all caused by oil running out? And if this is only a partial explanation, how big a percentage of the corruption is the explanation? Same question, to what extent can we blame politicians? Gullible voters? Fiat currencies? ….. Israel? Muslims? Socialists? Right wing nuts? Fiscal Conservatives? Anders? America? China? The European Parliament? Greedy Bankers?

[2011/12/13 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course I also remember when Japan Inc was going to own the world.

[2011/12/13 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: And with Anders I mean Brevik clearly.

[2011/12/13 15:36]  Jayda Ferrentino: All of those?

[2011/12/13 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, lets not into “my country is less screwed than tours”

[2011/12/13 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s caused by neither of them

[2011/12/13 15:36]  Cousin Hermit: oil is NOT running out

[2011/12/13 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Care to enlighten us Ivy?

[2011/12/13 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s caused by having a currency union without fiscal union

[2011/12/13 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: simple as that

[2011/12/13 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Ohw?

[2011/12/13 15:37]  Cousin Hermit: The financial FRAUD “jig is up”

[2011/12/13 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: Global warming? The Bilgerberg group? Goldman Sacks?

[2011/12/13 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A Peruvian economist just said that the problem is lack of information… you cannot run a worldwide economy without information. And right now, people don’t know where the lost money is

[2011/12/13 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: How easy is it to play divide and rule in this climate?

[2011/12/13 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi cousin!

[2011/12/13 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: yes, I agree — and no checks at all

[2011/12/13 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: if a state is using same currency, it needs centralized budget

[2011/12/13 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ wise Ivy

[2011/12/13 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: unless it’s using decentralized currency, but that’s not what Euro is

[2011/12/13 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Money has value to the extent that we all accept that it has value. Any other factors are just reasons to believe or not believe in the current value.

[2011/12/13 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, private banking will provide the needed regulations

[2011/12/13 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, by decentralized I mean uncontrollable like bitcoin

[2011/12/13 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: it didn’t work. Next?

[2011/12/13 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: I find that hard to believe Rhiannon. Did I ever tell you I was still a Virgin, Rhiannon?

[2011/12/13 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: all that said EU is a bloated political pig, but that’s not what caused Euro to fail

[2011/12/13 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Scarp as well

[2011/12/13 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn. Was never tried

[2011/12/13 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: I’d say that the problem is that the EU is *not* a political pig — it’s not a political union. Not yet.

[2011/12/13 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: No you are not Khannea. I should know.

[2011/12/13 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And each bout of state intervention in banking led This a depression

[2011/12/13 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: well, it’s a buddy union, or cartel union if you wish

[2011/12/13 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: Well If Rhiannon believes in selfregulating bankers who knows what else she might believe.

[2011/12/13 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then you will have to explain that a bit better, Rhi. I *thought* we were mostly regulated by private banking

[2011/12/13 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Not *that*

[2011/12/13 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Now let’s assume we’ll have one or several gepolitical collapse stages. The most likely candidate for systemic collapse is plausible to be the Euro as a collective currency. If a Euro collapse occurs, how bad will it get in Europe? And OUTISE Europe? Timothy Geithner was dispatvhed to the EU to spread around money and cross euro palms with some dollars (and yes I’d call this both alms and bribes) to make sure Euro “technocrats” would take over management from largely slow*cum*incompetent prostiticians.

[2011/12/13 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy:; yes, exactly

[2011/12/13 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: fuck democracy, fuck referendums, let’s make ourselves not one but two parliament buildings and have awesome salaries!

[2011/12/13 15:40]  Cousin Hermit: )

[2011/12/13 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: National borders mean less than they used to. Financially, national borders have even less meaning. Mostly because All the economies of the world are completely owned by and intertwined with each other.ed

[2011/12/13 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Notes the variation on argument from intimidation as a substitute for real reasoning

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: ohow host crashed

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I’m interested in knowing what you mean with more private banking self-regulating, Rhi

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: oops there goes Khannea.

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug: Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug is inserted deep inside a shuddering Khannea Suntzu.

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Khannea

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Trying to convince me you’re illogical, Khan?

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb!

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wow.

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Cousin Hermit: Does everyone understand the concept of “Fabianism”? –> http://bit.ly/fabianism

[2011/12/13 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): First time someone crashed after using a logical fallacy

[2011/12/13 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: I loved Farage’s little speech about Britain being reduced to a country like Switzerland if it leaves EU

[2011/12/13 15:42]  Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug: Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug is inserted deep inside a shuddering Khannea Suntzu.

[2011/12/13 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not, Cousin. Care to explain?

[2011/12/13 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Scarp, but the problem is that there is a central currency, but distributed planning across arbitrarily defined borders….

[2011/12/13 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy. It has that much cheese in the UK?

[2011/12/13 15:42]  Cousin Hermit: Fabianism is the relentless “Pursuit of Power” by any means necessary.

[2011/12/13 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: that is – he would love to being reduced to a country that’s actually richest in Europe, has same trading deals with EU states, while not being in the nuthouse

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  nicely put

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: OK.

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Scarp Godenot: “Self Regulation” means no regulation and leads to the kind of financial collapse we had in 2008, where finance became only a game consisting of ‘bets’ on pyrimid schemes of fake value.

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug: Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug is inserted deep inside a shuddering Khannea Suntzu.

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: and yes – what Gwyn said

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): 2007 wasn’t a period of self regulations

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d like to hear you counter Scarp’s argument, Rhi….

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: wow Khannea is having a tough time today.

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): 2008

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: poor Khannea. It’s the European conspiracy after her!

[2011/12/13 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: I also love that Poland will pay for Greece now, while polish retirement pays 1/3 of what Greeks get

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo you think, Gwyn?

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  not this time. on my phone and have to leave soon

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: blog about it then

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aw Rhi — ok!

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m sure we could find somebody to argue that 2008 was a product of too *much* regulation. (It wouldn’t be me, but I’m just saying. There’s always somebody.)

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: and we do so because we want to (or rather our gov wants to)

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: Have some firestorm graphics issues

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): but I will say his example fails.Huge amount of regulation in 2008.

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Cousin Hermit: Fabianism link –> http://bit.ly/fabianism

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: Did you know that Greece has less per capita debt than almost all other European countries?

[2011/12/13 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: awww stay, Rhi! Thinkers needs you.

[2011/12/13 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, I’m curious because I always thought that the mess we’re in is because of a total lack of regulation, or rather, even where is a bit of regulation, itg has been mostly ignored. So how would even less regulation actually make the mess go away?

[2011/12/13 15:45]  Lulu Lacrima: Fabianism, eh? great time to land in the middle of a discussion

[2011/12/13 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, so does my purse. Shave a client soon

[2011/12/13 15:45]  Cousin Hermit: Democracy is just another word for BAIT-n-SWITCH!

[2011/12/13 15:45]  Lulu Lacrima: hello everyone, Rhi, Ari, Zo

[2011/12/13 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi lulu

[2011/12/13 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: the problem with Greece i: do you trust those figures? I don’t Why should I? all others have been shown to be fake….

[2011/12/13 15:46]  Lulu Lacrima: everybody else hullo

[2011/12/13 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya Lulu

[2011/12/13 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: hello

[2011/12/13 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: Searches for an explanatory graphic I saw a week or two ago…..

[2011/12/13 15:46]  Chraeloos: Hi lulu

[2011/12/13 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: maybe because they don’t have that much GDP per capita to begin with, hahaha

[2011/12/13 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: I am perplexed at how hostile some people are towards anyting they can vaguely associate with socialism. Still decades after communism failed. I feel free to label this Pinochetism. Cuban Immigrant syndrome. Irrational hatred for egalitarianism.

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  the argument is That the mess we’re in is due to regulation and the political manipulation of them.

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I think that we actually don’t *know*, Ivy.

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Rhi. I’m fine with “political manipulation”,

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And no regulation, no possibility of political manipulation

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: Are “we” effectively “clueless”, Gwyn?

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but in effect, the past 7 years have been as close to laissez-faire capitalism as we can get

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Cousin Hermit: No single “system” will work, organization needs to be “dynamic” and flexible.

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: no — *I* am

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: ah Ok!

[2011/12/13 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, not completely clueless

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: we know that Greece is a black hole, we just don’t know how deep

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: hehe

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh… let;s complicate matters. And then there is the general movement we have now come to label “Occupy”. They are for some reason pissing off authorities. Why the hell, IF Occupy would be so inconsequential, are we seeing gestapo style full force crackdowns on these protesters?

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and I meant 9 years — which makes sense… economic cycles, strangely enough, are in periods of 9 years — go figure)

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: good description hehe

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: but don’t worry, our political class found a good way to measure it – throw money into it until it’s ful!

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Cousin Hermit: Spain and Italy owe EACH OTHER more money than Greece is in debt.

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: full*

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: fed up with tents ruining the beauty of St Pauls, perhaps, Khannea?

[2011/12/13 15:48]  Jayda Ferrentino: it has been gestapo style cracking down on occupy, police were monitoring the LA camp

[2011/12/13 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: heh

[2011/12/13 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cousin: that’s true. And France even owes more

[2011/12/13 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  well that’s like saying right now is as close This Pluto as we can get. Still a long way off

[2011/12/13 15:49]  Teleo Aeon: Black Hole!! ? give it a couple more months, and Greece might be the first to find the higgs boson

[2011/12/13 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: can we please stop pretending that economy of states is measured in absolute terms, or is Luxemburg suddenly the poorest country ever now?

[2011/12/13 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: lol teleo

[2011/12/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I meant compared it with historical laissez-faire capitalism, Rhi — like, say, the late 18th century, then again the late 19th century, and now the late 20th and early 21st….

[2011/12/13 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Occupy is just Tea Party with a vaguely leftist spin instead of a vaguely rightist spin. So it’s not really new.

[2011/12/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: now that’s another story! I propose to abandon Keynes

[2011/12/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We dropped Adam Smith when we had something better.

[2011/12/13 15:50]  Cousin Hermit: Since Spain and Italy CAN’T repay each other, should they be ALLOWED to “forgive” each other’s debt which basically “washes” TRILLIONS of dollars?!

[2011/12/13 15:50]  Lulu Lacrima: zo, the only difference between Teaparty & Occcupy is that teapartiers think government is too big while Occupy think business is too big

[2011/12/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’ve outlived Keynes’ usefulness.

[2011/12/13 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Closest thing I sawto the Occupy ‘movement’ was that joke protest by Plastic Duck’s gang ion whic they stood around saying nothing, waving blank placards. At least they meant the purposless protest to be funny.

[2011/12/13 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Why was there never approximating the same crackdown against the “Tea Party” as we are now seeing against “Occupy” ?

[2011/12/13 15:51]  Cousin Hermit: Both Government and Business should be ELIMINATED!

[2011/12/13 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: Khannea, b/c Occupy has drum circles

[2011/12/13 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because anything “leftsist” is suspicious? hehe

[2011/12/13 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: Cousin: either that, or they will pay each other interest rates forever, no big difference, just accounting

[2011/12/13 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: rubbish, Cousin:)

[2011/12/13 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  economic cycles aren’t nearly That predictable. Which is a pity, as every 9 years we have new political manipulation,  which would back my point. Darn it all, anyway

[2011/12/13 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cousin: right haha — and citizens should be eliminated as well, for good measure. So! No more problems!

[2011/12/13 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: I have no issues paying very high interest on monopoly money as long as I have a good laser printer in my home.

[2011/12/13 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Occupy still can’t even articulate what they want.

[2011/12/13 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Because the Tea Party worked through the political system and partially hijacked the GOP, I guess.

[2011/12/13 15:52]  Cousin Hermit: Don’t worry, a LOT of people will be eliminated next year… /

[2011/12/13 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: I am starting to think they do not know, Zobeid.

[2011/12/13 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: or that Tea Party was in interest of corporations, and Occupy movement is against them?

[2011/12/13 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Fema camps! Immunization! Contrails!

[2011/12/13 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Rhi, I _think_ I can agree with you to some degree. If I got you right, the problem was that private banking was working well enough, when all of a sudden government(s) started to interfere for some obscure reason, and now they’re just trying to extinguish the fire with oil?

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: No, the Tea Party is fairly ticked off at Big Business too.

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: riiiiiight

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cousin: 250,000 people die every day.

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: Chemtrails! Fluor! Bilderberg!

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: I guess that’s why big businesses payed them

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: zobeid, I don’t think that’s the case–I think the problem is that there are no single phrase memes, other than “we are the 99%” b/c Occupiers decie on everything in a very democratically slow process

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: OK, here is a graphic that is quite interesting. And it is percentage of debt owned by other countries AND per capita foreign debt of those countries. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gen. That is right.

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe they’ll eventually get their act together.

[2011/12/13 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: zo, the Tea party would rather see tax cuts for big business than social benefits

[2011/12/13 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: I visited a few Occupy camps. They annoy the shit! out of me.

[2011/12/13 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: Notice that Ireland has ten times more per capita foreign debt than greece

[2011/12/13 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Scarp that may be so, but the Irish look more aryan.

[2011/12/13 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve seen a nice speech on “non violent struggle” on TEDx, it’s now online on youtube, Sedra Popovic (Serbian) was the speaker if I get the name right (and I’m pretty sure I don’t given I don’t have access to the alphabet)

[2011/12/13 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: And the UK has triple the per capita foreign debt of Greece

[2011/12/13 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: All I know is, Occupiers fill my social networks with a lot of bad things to say about corporations too big and powerful to care what they think.

[2011/12/13 15:54]  Lulu Lacrima: aryan o_O

[2011/12/13 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But the reasons weren’t obscure.  Like J. P. Morgan insisted on The Fed Reserve as a condition of loaning money to help his investments

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: he explained quite nicely the difference between movements that do change something, and those that don’t

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: Caucasian? “Blue eyed”? Less Garlic?

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: chances are, Occupy movement won’t change anything

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, neither will the tea party

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, what were some of the biggest/major differences

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Teleo Aeon: I’ll believe a corporation is a person when Texas executes one

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lulu: complaining vs taking action, mostly

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I must go teach my student. TC everyone!

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (thanks, Scarp)

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye, Rhi!

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t want to diminish the speech, let me find it

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: what is happening is that *everybody* wants to see congress work together for a change

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696 For those who missed it. Interesting international debt graphic. Click on the country ring on the edge.

[2011/12/13 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: bye rhi

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: You can sort of kill a corporation.

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Tea Party has already had a *little* influence. But it’s hard to shake up the system. The military-industrial-congressional complex is deeply entrenched.

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Chraeloos: Bye Rhi!

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: here

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I saw a similar graphic half a year ago, Scarp, but not with so many countries in it.

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Cd-oEvEog

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye Gwyneth

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, that’s interesting, but ultimately not a big revelation

[2011/12/13 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This one seems nicer

[2011/12/13 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW has anyone here taken their money out of the bank and closed the account, like Zetigeist movement recommended?

[2011/12/13 15:57]  Lulu Lacrima: this is one reason why I’m not as big a fan of TED talks as some might b

[2011/12/13 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: I have not heard of that movement.

[2011/12/13 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lulu: again, I don’t want to diminishing the talk, and I’m not able to explain to you in one sentence what they guy explains in a lenghty speech, sorry

[2011/12/13 15:57]  Chraeloos: I can’t close my bank account – how would I get paid?

[2011/12/13 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes. My bank account has been consistently empty for decades.

[2011/12/13 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: so your point is that Greece is just a convenient scapegoat?

[2011/12/13 15:57]  Lulu Lacrima: Extropia, I use a credit union which isn’t exactly the same, but it *is* workeer-owned, so to speak

[2011/12/13 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ihavw.waves and poofs

[2011/12/13 15:58]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, I dig it

[2011/12/13 15:58]  Lulu Lacrima: *worker owned

[2011/12/13 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: oh, hello Giles. Good to see you again.

[2011/12/13 15:58]  Gilles Kuhn: Hello to all

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: the speech was mostly about the fact that the *skills* for system changing even non violent struggle can be taught/learned

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Lulu Lacrima: bonsoir Gilles

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Lulu Lacrima: I think it’s impossible to be 100% cash in this society, but I also believe the credit union approach is a good compromise

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Gilles Kuhn: Charle you can demand your employer to pay you by check or directly in handed cash

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Let’s just say it in an allegory – if the Greeks would be as blonde as the Irish they wouldn’t be in the same trouble.

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: Gwyn: My point is that those who are saying Greeks are irresponsible are just mistaken. This is a very complex issue and not easy to place blame on any particular causes.

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Lulu Lacrima: the Irish are redheads

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I agree, Scarp!

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I definitely agree.

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Well, as blonde as the Icelandic then?

[2011/12/13 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: not Greeks, their government

[2011/12/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Greece just became a target because they publicly assumed that most of their reporting in the past 30 years has been faked

[2011/12/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And right, like Ivy says

[2011/12/13 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: they had bonuses for working on a computer, working on a high floor, state paid vacations etc.

[2011/12/13 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s a major government idiocy

[2011/12/13 16:00]  Lulu Lacrima: greece, heh

[2011/12/13 16:00]  Gilles Kuhn: Greeks well before the turks came they were reputed to be fair headed since the ionians and doric invasions..

[2011/12/13 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: state paid meds

[2011/12/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: shhh Gilles, don’t tell that to a Greek citizen

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: hehe, Turkey is now showing middle finger to EU

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: Do note that the problems of the Greeks was by and large caused by elites, docters, lawyers and civil servants not paying taxes for decades.

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: is more likely to become a local leader

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can you blame them, Ivy? I don’t

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Khannea

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Lulu Lacrima: lol Gilles

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: not at all, I’m quite happy with it actually

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gilles Kuhn: i know ouzo has nothing to do with ouzo everybody know that…

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: competition is *good*

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gilles Kuhn: with Raki *

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller:

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: agreed haha

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, until tanks are involved, hehe

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: OOps. Right!

[2011/12/13 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: I’m also saying that the amount of the debt is commensurate to other western countries. What economists are worried about is a loss of confidence more than anything else.

[2011/12/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Scarp.

[2011/12/13 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: So far as I can see with my terrible grasp of economics, this whole mess was down to us spending money we did not have.

[2011/12/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because of lack of information!

[2011/12/13 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I blame Keynes! Sort of.

[2011/12/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good way to put it, Extie

[2011/12/13 16:02]  Lulu Lacrima: Extropia, that’s the fundamental issue

[2011/12/13 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: yes, that’s essentially what democratic governments do

[2011/12/13 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: by ‘us’ I mean the dreaded Them of course.

[2011/12/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *totally* blames Keynes. Or, better, I blame those that believe that Keynes’ models tying an economy’s value to ONLY industrial output is fundamentally flawed.

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: Dante had a very deep circle of hell for he usurers

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Chraeloos: How do we spend money we don’t have? I’m terrible with economics. I understand that we do it I just don’t understand how.

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Or rather, I blame the politicians who seized on Keynes’s ideas and twisted them almost beyond recognition for their own purposes.

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: although I’m not sure to what degree that was anti semitic

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, that as well, Zo

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Gilles Kuhn: yes ivy and non democratic gov dont borrow because they steal or confiscate

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Teleo Aeon: well technically, all money is money you don’t have.. I guess its about the level you haven’t got of it, thats the problem. :p

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: you borrow it

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn wants to propose models based on *service* and *information*

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: So blame is basicly like a foam party – everyone is up to their neck in it?

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: borrowing is fine, but paying exorbitant interest is not

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Chraeloos: So everyone owes everyone else?

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: a foam party?

[2011/12/13 16:03]  Gilles Kuhn: chra just go to a bank ask for a credit spend it

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Borrowing is fine as long as the risk of repayment is reasonable

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lulu: borrowing is fine, borrowing more than you can pay back is not

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Chraeloos: I understand credit cards, but whole governments doing it?

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: but also – lending more than you can is also not

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Foam p;arty : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvCNisamy34

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s where I disagree with Rhi (who has left us); I think we allowed banks to borrow too much

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that is lack of regulation IMHO

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gilles Kuhn: borrowing is the base of our actual economic system it impy that you borrow capital in order to win more due to what you do with it

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: But what I never can grasp is this. I owe money to the bank, which owes money to the country, which owes it to the world. which owes it to..what? I mean, who or what is it that will say ‘OK Third world, time up, pay up now!’ and if the Third World cannot or wll not pay its debt, what happens?

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Chraeloos: I agree Gwyn

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: oh there was somewhere “what if US was a household” table, I must find it for you!

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gilles Kuhn: problem is that it dont work so easily often

[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also a lack of information: knowing how much to borrow is allowed

[2011/12/13 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: Money needs to be tied to production, but in the last thirty years, money can be made by speculation games that are irrelevant to production. This is our major worldwide economic problem. It can only be solved by stopping the financial games like unlimited futures trading and credit default insurance schemes.

[2011/12/13 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: I have been using the explanations of one Chris Martenson since 2005 as a guidance stick for the mess we are in. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eidQTDjQ5gw

[2011/12/13 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: quoting an (in)famous ex-Prime Minister of my country, “countries don’t pay debts, they negotiate them”

[2011/12/13 16:05]  Chraeloos: Extropia I’m with you in that question

[2011/12/13 16:05]  Gilles Kuhn: extro money is an artificial thing it is created by central bank by fiat and has to reflect some economic exchange

[2011/12/13 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: bah, no luck

[2011/12/13 16:06]  Gilles Kuhn: scarp i agree

[2011/12/13 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp, I heard a banker say the problem was that investoirs started gambliong with other people’s money. And when it is not *your* money you take much bigger risks.

[2011/12/13 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: why to production? Isn’t “service” a valid way to tie money to? That’s why I disagree with the Keynesian models. Modern Western countries are *essentially* about services, even though most of the wealthiest countries in tghe world are also industrial and agricultural powerhouses.

[2011/12/13 16:06]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima yawns

[2011/12/13 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: If you will notice that when a company announces quarterly profits, it is irrelevant what the profit is. The only thing that counts is did the prediction match the reality. A company can make a large profit and still have its stock value fall because of this ridiculous situation.

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles: not quite, actually it’s private banks that “create” money.

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Central banks just shuffle it around.

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: which is OK if the gambling pays off, you make huuuuuge profits. But when it goes wrong, you bring the bank down.

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Lulu Lacrima: money is a social construction to be sure

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: scarp: yes

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: for sure, Lulu.

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Lulu Lacrima: all of mine is digital

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gilles Kuhn: gwyn there is no difference money speaking between production and service its all about money moving

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn:

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Lulu Lacrima: except when it’s cash lol

[2011/12/13 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Might a large contributing factor be that at some point producing countries are mostly ‘done’ and consum,ers satisfied? So everyone is out of work, wages don’t rize but the economic wheels have to keep spinning?

[2011/12/13 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles: depends, depends

[2011/12/13 16:08]  Gilles Kuhn: gwyn no the centrals bank create money not the private one

[2011/12/13 16:08]  Lulu Lacrima: khannea, I think what happens in a consumeristic society is that the companies “create needs” that don’t really exist

[2011/12/13 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gilles: actually, that’s not entirely true

[2011/12/13 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Money is created when you lend money at an interest, Gilles: that way, there is *more* money around.

[2011/12/13 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: Khannea, the economy cannot get a good start again, because banks aren’t lending. Why aren’t they lending? They don’t need to lend to make money anymnore….. simply put.

[2011/12/13 16:08]  Lulu Lacrima: one good example occured at the end of the 19th/start of the 20th century–women’s shaving

[2011/12/13 16:09]  Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug: Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug is inserted deep inside a shuddering Khannea Suntzu.

[2011/12/13 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah. Who NEEDS Second Life?

[2011/12/13 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: private banks can actually “create” money, or at very least create inflation

[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Khannea!

[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gilles Kuhn: Ivy if i could sauy the entire truth i would be a prophet and you would all crucify me

[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just like Ivy said.

[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha

[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no, Gilles

[2011/12/13 16:09]  Lulu Lacrima: men’s razor blade manufacturers wanted to sell more razor blades, and so they designed ads to promote this social (non)standard of shaved armpits & legs

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Lulu Lacrima: and voilà

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Ivy meant is that new money is created by private banks when they lend at an interest. That’s the major contribution to an increased amount of money around.

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Lulu Lacrima: half the world became a new market

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Lulu Lacrima: pah

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: anyone seen that ‘money is debt and debt is money’ explanation from Zeitgeist: Addendum, a documentary film on youtube?

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww Lulu. Really? Not that I should be surprised…

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Lulu Lacrima: Yeah, Gwyneth

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: yes, and yes money is debt, our monetary system is a debt based one

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Gilles Kuhn: yes but no gwyn the private bank lend on her money but its a money she had but the bank can borrow to the central bank which create fiat money to do so

[2011/12/13 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn stops shaving her armpits

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Lulu Lacrima: also, think about how we’re so used to kleenex and paper towels

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: So our economic system IS a bubble over overallocation?

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: It is all about the fractional reserve and how it works. I have not idea if it is telling the truth, but if it is, it is crazy!

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: Ivy, banks ‘make’ money by use of the national banks reserve requirements being small, and that makes money get lent out on about a 10 to one reserve ration. But national Banks are critical in that process.

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really, Gilles, banks lend money they do NOT have.

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: yes

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Gilles Kuhn: yes they have it gwyn only its not their own its what you give them

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Banks get freedom to create money, yes this is correct.

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Lulu Lacrima: this is why I use a credit union!!!

[2011/12/13 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Scarp said, banks usually have just a small percentage of the actual money on hand

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Credit unions supposedly do the same

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Lulu Lacrima: they don’t use *your* money unless you say it’s okay!

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: obviously with no national bank to emitt money, private banks would have limited options, hehehe

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima LOVES HER CREDIT UNION

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gilles Kuhn: repeat banks cannot create money only central banks can do so

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: The National Banks actually create the money by having it borrowed by the private banks after the reserve is deposited.

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles, you should go and check up on that

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it true that if literally all debt was paid off, money would cease to exist?

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gilles Kuhn: gwyn you too

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Gilles, touché

[2011/12/13 16:12]  Teleo Aeon: well you usually have national mints

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Gilles yes but banks are constantly awarded this money by central banks, by buying government red ink.

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Lulu Lacrima: extropia, I don’t think so; people would still want to exchange goods for goods, or service for goods, or vice versa

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gilles: they can’t print money, but they can actually insert it into the market

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Lulu Lacrima: it’s always been that way

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Lulu Lacrima: the silk road and all that

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Gilles Kuhn: true khan and more central bank always lend to banks

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: IN a sense the private banks ‘make’ the money, because that process happens when money is lent out by the private banks….

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: good point, Lulu.

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Chraeloos: But do we need money, or just goods/services for goods/services?

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then I’ll rephrase that: in *my* country, money is *mostly* created by private banks *other* countries might have different mechanisms to create money, but I can predict that most use the same mechanisms

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Teleo Aeon: I guess a bunch opperates electronically too now.. so maybe theres a varient of printed money which stays in electronic form

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look, only 1/3 of all Euros in circulation are printed.

[2011/12/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The rest is digital.

[2011/12/13 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: We absolutely need money because the economy is far to complex for trade alone.

[2011/12/13 16:14]  Gilles Kuhn: ivy printing or inserting is the same in fact but private bank cannot create money as the central banks can do

[2011/12/13 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chraeloos: money is just a convenient way to do barter

[2011/12/13 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: I’m of opinion that yes, we “need” money as much as we need wheels. We could probably imagine a world without wheels, but it would be a pain in the ass. The question is of the *implementation* of money, not the *concept* of it.

[2011/12/13 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I reckon 98% of all money exists entirely in computers. At least 98%.

[2011/12/13 16:14]  Chraeloos: I don’t find it convenient, especially when I don’t have any. I’d much rather trade service for service. Or goods

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles: if buy that you mean that private banks cannot *print* money, that’s correct. But why should they? Most of the money world-wide isn’t printed anyway.

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: For the dollar it is less than 10%. A lot of dollars are phantom clouds in Saudi Arabian or Chinese coffers. Basicly the dollars don’t exist, but the US allows these debtors to hold their hands warm in their rectum, sort of. It’s a service.

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Cousin Hermit: Does anyone know about the “Bank for International Settlements”?

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: not I.

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima loves the word “reckon”

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: Printed money is just a practicality, most money is just ledger money. That is why money relies on belief in its value.

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: there is only so much a blowjob can buy

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Lulu Lacrima: lol Ivy

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Scarp and Khannea

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: I dunno. I charge a fortune for fellatio. But then, I am very good.

[2011/12/13 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: The blowjob economy has seriously delflated the value of money in SL. It’s been blowing bubbles for years.

[2011/12/13 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha

[2011/12/13 16:16]  Cousin Hermit: http://www.bis.org/ Bank for Int’l Settlements

[2011/12/13 16:16]  Gilles Kuhn: gwin as i have said there is no difference between printed or accounted money

[2011/12/13 16:16]  Cousin Hermit: “above” the IMF

[2011/12/13 16:16]  Teleo Aeon: BS for short ?

[2011/12/13 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm if I remember my figures correctly, last year, in my country, the amount of money in circulation (mostly in digital form) was 70x the amount of money actually coming from sales of industrial goods. The rest was only financial products — i.e. virtual money

[2011/12/13 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Kimiko!

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: But just because it’s value depends on belief, doesn’t make it not useable or not valuable. It is valuable. That value is tested every day on the money markets.

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles: you’re right.

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Kimiko Yiyuan: Hello Extropia. Hello everyone.

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Kimiko, hii!

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: The money markets are a measure of belief.

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: precisely, Scarp.

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rating agencies are another….;)

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: or as they say, there is the real economy, and there is the financial market that doesn’t produce anything, just trades “papers” for “papers’

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Lulu Lacrima: gotta go folks, good to chat

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s it, Ivy

[2011/12/13 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Question… and this is a political question…. have politicians and banks colluded to waylay wage increases in the 90s and oughts, by making credit so damn cheap and easy ?

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: delegalize stock markets

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d love to ask Rhi if she still thinks that complete deregulation of the so-called “virtual economy” is still such a good idea

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: no, I’d say it was just greed.

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really a conspiracy.

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: The stock market is dynamically unstable. It’s really deeply flawed.

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: If anyone is interested in this money economics stuff, I recommend you study the Brazilian currency and how it came to be. A real lesson in belief is reality.

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh Ok!

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Cousin Hermit: Global Corporate Control? Bilderberg Illuminati? –> http://youtu.be/L0Ruzg_OMWY

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: ask her in IM, Gwyn. She will get it on her return.

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: yus, which is sad, really

[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: nah, I’ll let her in peace

[2011/12/13 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve a good reason to think that there is no hidden conspiracy group that controls the world economy – if there was, the world economy wouldn’t be so fucked up

[2011/12/13 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: And yet, whenever I talk to financial types, they always want me to buy stocks. When I say the word “bonds”, they deflate. It’s like the spark of life just goes out of them.

[2011/12/13 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Greed” as in: “let’s do it because we can, nobody is going to check on us, everybody is going to get more goods and money, so all will be happy, and we will never get caught getting richer”, Khannea

[2011/12/13 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I love that argument, Khannea .D

[2011/12/13 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean Ivy grr

[2011/12/13 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *slaps her forehead*

[2011/12/13 16:20]  Cousin Hermit: There are “competing” conspiracy groups TRYING to control the world.

[2011/12/13 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller pats Gwyn

[2011/12/13 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: happens to best of us

[2011/12/13 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think they’re so organised to be “conspiracy groups”. More like “interest groups”

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Kimiko Yiyuan: Of course you could also say the conspirators are as stupid as everybody else. haha

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Cousin Hermit: watch the video… http://youtu.be/L0Ruzg_OMWY

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, I know, Ivy — senility!

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Kimiko — not as stupid, but as greedy, or even more greedt!

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *greedy

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Cousin Hermit: stupid is relative

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: There is no control, only folly…… heh

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Cousin Hermit: look at Gingrich

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Kimiko Yiyuan: Yeah, I was more referring to the “Fuckes up” part.

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ve got nothing against greed, btw — it’s a great motivator. The problem is when you lose control.

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Kimiko Yiyuan: fucked

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: the conspiracy is..there is no conspiracy;)

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie

[2011/12/13 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: when compared to a tree, we are all geniuses

[2011/12/13 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Trees are just smiling and saying, “Yeah, right…”

[2011/12/13 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, except for people winning darwin awards

[2011/12/13 16:22]  Gilles Kuhn: true ivy but the tree has a way longer life expectancy !

[2011/12/13 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: Scarp Godenot reminds all of the era of unfettered capitalism, now referred to as the ‘era of the Robber Barons’. Not a good thing.

[2011/12/13 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Scarp if you can affirm the fate of Formatting Heliosense I’d like a miute of total silence from all between 4:29 and 4:30 at the end of this meeting.

[2011/12/13 16:22]  Chraeloos: haha Gwyn! Agreed

[2011/12/13 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: well, at least we are pretty good at exterminating them, hehehe

[2011/12/13 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Scarp, we have gone through lots of cycles with more and less laissez-faire capitalism, but we never learn the lessons….

[2011/12/13 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “we” being the citizens that elect governments, too!

[2011/12/13 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, our friend Formatting Heliosense aka Patrick Millard has passed away over the weekend. We are very sad.

[2011/12/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: not just “the ones in power”

[2011/12/13 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: we never learn the lesson because the systems last longer than a generation, “we” might be the first generation to change that state of things

[2011/12/13 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: which is both amazing and scary

[2011/12/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we study history for something, yes?

[2011/12/13 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: hmmm..well technically speaking the outside of the tree is dead so while the tree EXISTS for up to many hundreds of years, you could argue it does not LIVE that long, becaise the living part of the tree only survives for a short period.

[2011/12/13 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: What we learn from history is that we don’t learn from history.

[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s supposed that we learn “don’t do this, it’s bloody nonsense”?

[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Zo

[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, point taken, Zo

[2011/12/13 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: well, our prime minister and president have master degree in history, doesn’t help, hahahaha

[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re right.

[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gilles Kuhn: Extropia you can have the same reasonning with us at at the cellular level..

[2011/12/13 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘all this has happened before and all of this will happen again’.

[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Gilles We’re all a mix of “living” and “dead” matter

[2011/12/13 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: Eternal recurrence?

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that’s too much Douglas Adams for you.

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: unless you vote for me to be the Queen of Earth!

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: no Battlestar Galactica.

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ll put this planet in order *lashes a whip at the rugs*

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Queens get acclaimed, not elected, I thought….

[2011/12/13 16:26]  druth Vlodovic: maybe cycling, each type of disaster happening in turn helps the race survive

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: well, the first one currently would have to be elected

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: who gets to acclaim, Gwyn?

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: and since I’ll live forever, there is no need for replacement!

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Gilles Kuhn: Gwyn I am shocked Queen are Ointed by God !!!

[2011/12/13 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the general populace, Scarp!

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ointed, right!

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d be fine with NEW disasters, druth. I’m just sad that we’re creating the very same OLD disasters over and over again.

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: I like ointed

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the phrase is..anointed?

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need a new Roosevelt in Europe to freeze all banks and restart it from scratch

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: Ann ointed me last week.

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ointed is funnier, Extie!

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: politicans are oinked

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Scarp!

[2011/12/13 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: they oink like pigs

[2011/12/13 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: true:)

[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oinked politicians, yes, for sure

[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gilles Kuhn: yes in english barbarian tongue anointed but Oint is the true correct name

[2011/12/13 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: Some pigs are more equal than others….. heh

[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: People should read more Orwell!

[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gilles Kuhn: and obviously only in Saint Denis Cathedral ….

[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah

[2011/12/13 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: Reading Orwell is like reading the newspaper!

[2011/12/13 16:28]  druth Vlodovic: well, since we are still here maybe the old diasters aren’t so bad

[2011/12/13 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: yeah, some are held for offspring, other just go straight to butchery

[2011/12/13 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Scarp

[2011/12/13 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: OK… so in a minute it is going to be 4:29 and we will have a minut silence in rememberence of Patrick Millard, the primary of Formatting Helliosense. Patrick died, sadly. OK it is now 4:29..

[2011/12/13 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean, at least we know how it will end, druth?

[2011/12/13 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: As I just heard our friend Formatting Heliosense aka Patrick Millard has passed away over the weekend. I’d like a minute of respectful silence between 4:29 and 4:30 please., If anyone would like to make a brief statement please do so right after. Death is unacceptable.

[2011/12/13 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: ok it is 431

[2011/12/13 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: *nods*

[2011/12/13 16:31]  Gilles Kuhn: apart of the fact i consider always than the death of a human being is a tragedy i have some difficulties to understand the ceremonial of a minute of “silence” in chat….

[2011/12/13 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Digital people do not die. They just stop logging in.

[2011/12/13 16:31]  druth Vlodovic: you’re supposed to do it in rl

[2011/12/13 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah I know.

[2011/12/13 16:31]  druth Vlodovic: pause your thoughts and emotions for a bit

[2011/12/13 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was thinking about that, Gilles, it’s curious how we humans carry with us so many rituals.

[2011/12/13 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gilles: it’s symbolic, we humans give value to symbolic things, be it marriage, minute of silence, or money

[2011/12/13 16:32]  druth Vlodovic: it has functional purposes

[2011/12/13 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well put, Ivy.

[2011/12/13 16:32]  Chraeloos: Nice Ivy

[2011/12/13 16:32]  Gilles Kuhn: well ritual give sense and meaning where there is none is not for nothing most ritual are related to death

[2011/12/13 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: so time up for Khannea’s topic.

[2011/12/13 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Maybe extropia has the inspiration for the usual poem?

[2011/12/13 16:32]  Gilles Kuhn: ivy i know that but even so….

[2011/12/13 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Next week is not a discussion, but my yearly lecture.