Thinkers Jan 31 2012: CORY AND COPYRIGHTS

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/01/31 15:32]  Stephan Attenborough: ready when youre
[2012/01/31 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: If anyone is wondering what the screen is here, just click it and it displays the local chat discussion.
[2012/01/31 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is….
[2012/01/31 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: CORY AND COPYRIGHTS: Is Cory Doctorow right to say copyright is not important to just about everyone?
[2012/01/31 15:33]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): no
[2012/01/31 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: no, it’s important for UMG
[2012/01/31 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: :D
[2012/01/31 15:33]  Lem Skall: UMG?
[2012/01/31 15:33]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): intellectual property etc….has ownership
[2012/01/31 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): it’s important to protect the rights of sthe creator
[2012/01/31 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: So how is it important?
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And to protect those of us with copyrighted avatars
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Lem Skall: Rhi, god?
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: intellectual property is *not* copyright :)
[2012/01/31 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: It allows people like me to make a living.
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: © Hi. All rights reserved.
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello Gwyn!
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Lem Skall: lol, Gwyn
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It promotes innovation and progress
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: Copyright itself isn’t important. It’s barely relevant in entertainment industries, and it serves some use in protection corporate research, mostly so in big Pharma. Litication and all that.
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh I can argue that Rhi
[2012/01/31 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it is the acknowledgment of the right of the creator
[2012/01/31 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: But cory makes a living from copyright so why is he sayong it is not important?
[2012/01/31 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He’s a hypocrite…? ;)
[2012/01/31 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: I however think IP and copyrights and patents have become a stick of the US Pax Americana to use to hit other competetor nations.
[2012/01/31 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: copyright is against innovation
[2012/01/31 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, probably to justify looting from crative people
[2012/01/31 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: If there was no copyright, nobody would have to pay a writer or a photographer or an artist anything for their work, they would just steal it.
[2012/01/31 15:35]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): As an individual I care for MY property…creative or otherwise…I don;t ‘give a’ what it helps promote, by my possessing its rights
[2012/01/31 15:36]  Lem Skall: I think copyright was designed for a previous period and it was meant for a world of professionals but now it’s a world of amateurs and I think that copyright should be changed
[2012/01/31 15:36]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): but I posesss it and will do with it what I will
[2012/01/31 15:36]  lufpleh Obstreperous: I would say yes, Cory is right, most people don’t give a rats about copyright, they want to use whatever material they like at that instant, any worries about copyright would be an after thought
[2012/01/31 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: what Lem said
[2012/01/31 15:36]  Lem Skall: what luf said
[2012/01/31 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: copyright and patents was perfectly fine in XIX century
[2012/01/31 15:36]  Lem Skall: and apparently what Cory said, I didn’t read it
[2012/01/31 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luf, yes, in that sense, true, peole dont care about coypright; but they will care onces all innovation dries up
[2012/01/31 15:36]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): as to what? make the whole educated world a mass commune for leftist benefit?
[2012/01/31 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Once upon a time producing copies was expensive but now in the digital age we can copy for a pittence. I have heard that cited as a reasin why copyright is an obsolete concept.
[2012/01/31 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WQ, that’s pretty much what the anti-copyright people want
[2012/01/31 15:37]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): LIKE IT or not…..this owlrd is run o the barter of VALUE
[2012/01/31 15:37]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): world
[2012/01/31 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Tell me why I should have to work for free?
[2012/01/31 15:38]  LessWrong: In the information age, most work products have such a short half life that copyright is meaningless
[2012/01/31 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: If a powerful entity on this world decided to not honor your IP rights, you are screwed, White. IP’s are a convention and it exists arbitrrarily, as a historical artifacts. I mean, I don’t totally disagree with the logic, but it does hinge on agreement. It’s only a matter of time before a powerful state will rescind recoignition of *ALL* IPs. What will the big powers then do? Go to war over it?
[2012/01/31 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: who says you have to work for free?
[2012/01/31 15:38]  Lem Skall: Art, you don’t have to work at all
[2012/01/31 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: If you love your work, why not?
[2012/01/31 15:38]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): and if value as a notion or a proerty is reemoved…devalued…..then all which is left is …a wide empty Liberal free for all
[2012/01/31 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, because you’r a slave to the unimaginative. Didn’t you know tha?
[2012/01/31 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: If there is no copyright, corporations can steal anyones work and use it for free.
[2012/01/31 15:38]  Lem Skall: Art, you’re using an extreme to make your point
[2012/01/31 15:38]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): ANd I WILL assign value to my production….an product….and WILL defend against….liberal theft
[2012/01/31 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: I am using a simple point. A direct and true point.
[2012/01/31 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: so can do everyone else, not just corporations :)
[2012/01/31 15:39]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): and mis appropriationg
[2012/01/31 15:39]  LessWrong: Very little original work these days
[2012/01/31 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, that’s exactly what is implied by there being no copyright
[2012/01/31 15:39]  Lem Skall: and no one says NO COPYRIGHT, just a changed one
[2012/01/31 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: Precsiely. If a big company wants to use a little persopns IP, there is absolutely zero way tp stop them. What ya gona do, write a letter?
[2012/01/31 15:39]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): that is no excuse….
[2012/01/31 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Corporations cannot do that now, fortunately.
[2012/01/31 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: I work for free. I do not put a fee up for attending this meeting nor do I charge anyone to read my stuff. And researching and writing it takes as long as Art takes to knock a few prims into an artpiece;)
[2012/01/31 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: whew.
[2012/01/31 15:40]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): you still work for a value
[2012/01/31 15:40]  LessWrong: Get army of copyright barnacles and attach them to a ship like Apple or Motorola
[2012/01/31 15:40]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): a reward
[2012/01/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, one might wonder where you get money to get food :)
[2012/01/31 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: of course.
[2012/01/31 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Intellectuial Ownership is an arbitrary convention. Tomorrow Russia may suddenly decide to stop acknowledging it, as in *totally*.
[2012/01/31 15:40]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): steal it like Liberals want to do
[2012/01/31 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: The idea that creative people’s WORK PRODUCT doesn’t deserve to be compensated makes me very angry. This is how we make our living. It is our job and our work.
[2012/01/31 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: When they do that, Russia wins, and everyone else loses.
[2012/01/31 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: let’s face it, the current copyright lobby wants to freeze and enforce copyright protection because their business models are obsolete
[2012/01/31 15:40]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): whispers: under the banner of being FAIR
[2012/01/31 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not need food. So that is no problem:)
[2012/01/31 15:40]  Lem Skall: Art, again, no one says that
[2012/01/31 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But that’s your choice, Extie
[2012/01/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Extie :)
[2012/01/31 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: you don’t even need copyright protection if you can provide services better than piracy – hence itunes
[2012/01/31 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lem, doing away with copyright leads to that conclusion directly.
[2012/01/31 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are two issues here which get so often confused…
[2012/01/31 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: White please refrain from slandering these “liberals”, it is very tasteless.
[2012/01/31 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It was very disruptive to my discussion when someone stole my copyrighted avatar and mimiced me
[2012/01/31 15:41]  Lem Skall: no one is saying “doing away” with copyright
[2012/01/31 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think they are
[2012/01/31 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Would you want that, Extie?
[2012/01/31 15:41]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): I call it apt….from here in England
[2012/01/31 15:41]  Lem Skall: Art, I think you’re being paranoid
[2012/01/31 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Content creators have a right to eat and have a home, and to get that from their work. It’s a right in the Human Declaration of Human Rights. And 2) Content *distribution* is a business model which assumes that distribution of content is expensive and not universal.
[2012/01/31 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m just listening to the discussion.
[2012/01/31 15:42]  Lem Skall: then don’t listen
[2012/01/31 15:42]  Stephan Attenborough: copyright is another point of the human right of ownership?
[2012/01/31 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha ha
[2012/01/31 15:42]  LessWrong: There is copyright. . . the issue is how pragmatic enforcement is
[2012/01/31 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Stephen, it’s the purest recognitionof it
[2012/01/31 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: yup, and we know that content distribution is no longer expensive :)
[2012/01/31 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m afraid that I have to side 100% with Art here.
[2012/01/31 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You create an expression, you have ownership rights over it
[2012/01/31 15:43]  Lem Skall: ah yes, Less, what is fair use?
[2012/01/31 15:43]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): life isn’t perfect…power is drawn to those capable of USING it…..
[2012/01/31 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Ivy. So we cannot use *distribution* to pay for content creation. What is teh alternative?
[2012/01/31 15:43]  LessWrong: Lem: I think the DMCA definition is pretty reasonable
[2012/01/31 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: Art if a business model requires you to hire a protection syndicate, you have a problem. NOT pirating copyright … is a form of “breaking a prohibition”. Prohibitions that are based on the a protection racket by a Syndicate (regardless whether or not the syndicate is what we now call The Law) will NOT WORK. Prohibutions always create black narkets.
[2012/01/31 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh there are many alternatives
[2012/01/31 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: and yes, you can still charge for the distribution
[2012/01/31 15:43]  Lem Skall: there is no reasonable definition
[2012/01/31 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: you just charge less
[2012/01/31 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not sure Cory advocates the total abolishment of copyright, but he does think that thetime when something is under copyright should be reduced. He says it needlessly locks away knowledge from humanity.
[2012/01/31 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tell me a few alternatives, Ivy :)
[2012/01/31 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: microtransactions are the bomb
[2012/01/31 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just to see if you come up with something that works for the majority of content creators… NOT edge cases.
[2012/01/31 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: :)
[2012/01/31 15:44]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): I thnk business ought to be able to shoot thieves…..then thieves might decide to get legitimate work
[2012/01/31 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that’s an edge case. Yes. It works for some.
[2012/01/31 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: not really
[2012/01/31 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: it works for the majority
[2012/01/31 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, the majority lives from royalties ;)
[2012/01/31 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: curiosity
[2012/01/31 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: megaupload that got closed
[2012/01/31 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: wanted to open up a megabox service
[2012/01/31 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, and iTunes works too
[2012/01/31 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: where artists could sell their music directly
[2012/01/31 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: getting 90% revenues
[2012/01/31 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I know that Ivy
[2012/01/31 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: yup
[2012/01/31 15:45]  LessWrong: Everything is about scale; it costs Intel over $1B USD to make a chip stepping. And yet, there are still black market Intel knock offs in China
[2012/01/31 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): White Queen, why even bother to text? I don’t think too many people here apprciate the value of property to creators
[2012/01/31 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: White queen, based on your statements I will pirate some stuff tonight. And I will do so with little or no repercussions, and solely as an act of protest. If you argue MURDER for people stealing bits, you can stick your IP demands where the sun don’t shine.
[2012/01/31 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: Less: I believe we are talking copyright, not patents?
[2012/01/31 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: It is a billion for the first chip and cents for the second.
[2012/01/31 15:46]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): not murder….retribution.
[2012/01/31 15:46]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): it is all on the turn of the word
[2012/01/31 15:46]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): you steal…..I take back
[2012/01/31 15:46]  Lem Skall: sweet justice
[2012/01/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: sadly, since only 1 out of 1000 people make a living from some sort of content creation, the remaining 999 “think” that content creation is worth exactly zero.
[2012/01/31 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: What do you produce? Watch my retribution.
[2012/01/31 15:46]  LessWrong: Ivy as copyright became weak, patents became the new game
[2012/01/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would be nice to apply the same theory to doctors, for example :)
[2012/01/31 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In some societies, doctors work for free.
[2012/01/31 15:47]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): take back and make it better
[2012/01/31 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: I don’t even steal. I give away for free.
[2012/01/31 15:47]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): as your life is pretty worthless as a thief….I amm out of pocket for a bullet besides.
[2012/01/31 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: I do not negotiate with bullies and terrorists.
[2012/01/31 15:47]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): if they steal your work that means its good so press to make something even better
[2012/01/31 15:47]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): I can multi task……
[2012/01/31 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I don’t like the idea of people impersonating me in SL, Jazziel
[2012/01/31 15:48]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): do both
[2012/01/31 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: if someone makes money on your work
[2012/01/31 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: on the net
[2012/01/31 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: you need to ask yourself a very important question
[2012/01/31 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, and that is theft, pure and simple
[2012/01/31 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: why you are *not* making that money?
[2012/01/31 15:48]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): first ask IF the question IS important
[2012/01/31 15:48]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): then ask it
[2012/01/31 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, maybe because someone stole your expression?
[2012/01/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: These days, Jazz, putting one’s work in digital format is pretty much as saying “come, steal it, I cannot protect it any longer” — so developing faster and faster is of little concern. I mean, movies are watched DAYS before they premiere…
[2012/01/31 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: or maybe because they have a better business model? :D
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Faith Mandrake: or because they’re whores, with no taste.
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: that’s demanding that content creators are business persons too
[2012/01/31 15:49]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): no model is better if it has to steal to enact itself
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If they have business skills, what are doing art for? :)
[2012/01/31 15:49]  LessWrong: Ivy is would be wrong to assume that you could make the same as somebody else, especially if you do not have the same reach
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: essentially – yes
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: everybody has the same reach on the internet
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So content creators are by definition NOT business managers.
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu takes a deep breath. “white have I now stolen your air” ?
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, except for chineese
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: and north koreans
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, well, they should have paid youu for your contribution; doesn’t sound like a business model to me
[2012/01/31 15:49]  Faith Mandrake: nobody has any reach on the internet
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sounds like a theivery model
[2012/01/31 15:50]  LessWrong: Ivy that is theoretical but vacant
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Faith Mandrake: it’s white noise
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Faith — only a few, right
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: if someone can make money with your copyright material
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: illegal as it is, they are doing something smarter than the copyright owner
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Faith Mandrake: they are doing something slutty
[2012/01/31 15:50]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): i like that ivy
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not smarter, Ivy: they just have better business skills
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Faith Mandrake: that the owner has the taste not to do
[2012/01/31 15:50]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): one can go to any number of ‘irrational ‘ lengths Klannea….they will remain irrational
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: which is essentially being smarter ;)
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If they were true business people, they would not have stolen the idea
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Faith Mandrake: ivy, you value money far too much, imho.
[2012/01/31 15:50]  Lem Skall: if I make something public not expecting that I could ever sell it then I will never make any money from it; but if someone figures out how to sell it and does that, are they stealing from me? because otherwise I wouldn’t have made any money anyway
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Faith Mandrake: that’s not a measurement of worth, or meaning.
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We’re talking the legitimization of theft, people, pure and simple
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t value money, I value value
[2012/01/31 15:51]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): money is king…emperor….
[2012/01/31 15:51]  LessWrong: @IVy the whole notion of social media is about disintermediating content and creators
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Whether it’s the avatar that represents you in SL, your story idea, or a bluepring, it’s all theft
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: Less: yes
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the current anti-copyright trend goes like this: “artists have to be more creative at BECOMING BUSINESS MANAGERS”. I read that all the time, actually. But it’s a stupid argument: if they had business skills, they would be business managers instead! We want content creators which have *content creation skills*.
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And to say it doesn’t matter is like saying theft or rape doesn’t mater
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: It’s a theft if you lose something
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A woman should just give her body to everybod and be done with it
[2012/01/31 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: There seems to be a contempt for paying for music these days. Why is that? It seems to be the logic of the spoiled child. basically: ” I want it, mommy!, give it to me now!”
[2012/01/31 15:51]  Faith Mandrake: google isn’t an intermediary?
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Lem Skall: Ivy, in my scenario I don’t lose anything
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Faith Mandrake: for god’s sake.
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, you’ve lost the profit that was rightfully yours
[2012/01/31 15:52]  LessWrong: SOPA asked the question: is disintermediation an acceptable cost for ubiquity
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What about losing the means to get an income from one’s work? The Universal Declaration of Human RIghts does not apply to artists? Why not?
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: White, I appreciate people being rewarded for a decent good job, I really do. But AGAIN. if your business model presupposed the creation of an authoritative system of repression, punishment, extradition, torture and (as you argued) MURDER, you can stick you business model where the sun don’t shine.
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Right Lem. A long time ago two American Twins told some geek called Mark about a new social network they were planning and he went off, took their idea and made…oh…some social network thing…
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: scam is not theft and it makes you lose money too
[2012/01/31 15:52]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): I refuse to use google wherever possible…it is an unethical company
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: copyright infringement is illegal, but it’s not theft
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s a completely different offense
[2012/01/31 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, scam is “theft by deception.”
[2012/01/31 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: if you see it as theft then I’m sorry but you need to update your views to the era of the Internet :)
[2012/01/31 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s based, morally in the same offense as theft
[2012/01/31 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: that’s another story. The problem is that artists are “not skilled enough” to come up with better solutions…
[2012/01/31 15:53]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): the effects to the individual however are …theft
[2012/01/31 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi it does, but it is *different*
[2012/01/31 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … so they rely on businesses do enforce their rights.
[2012/01/31 15:53]  Lem Skall: Extie, how do you evaluate the idea that came from those twins because what Mark did was much more, so just that idea may have been worthless by itself
[2012/01/31 15:53]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): I have…you stole my ‘means’ and ends
[2012/01/31 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, oh, I love it when an advocate of a view breaks down to the argument of intimidation–only someone with outmoded thinking would hold *that* position, and you wouldn’t want to be one of those, would you?
[2012/01/31 15:53]  LessWrong: The notion of google is that information is free. . .that has a crushing effect on those too small to countermand the disintermediation
[2012/01/31 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Parsing the word ‘theft’ misses the point. If you consume music which you illegally obtained. It is no different from stealing a CD from the shop.
[2012/01/31 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Ivy. That reminds me of a long discussion with a cousin of mine, where he managed to logically prove that infinite duplication of an artist’s content renders its value effectively zero, so duplicating it cannot be theft, since the value is zero.
[2012/01/31 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: it’s not intimidation, it’s just stating that you are sitting still in the XIX century :)
[2012/01/31 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To which I replied, “that’s moral relativity to justify getting at someone’s work for free”
[2012/01/31 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, I agree totally, but I’m probably the only one hear who understands you
[2012/01/31 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh, Lem. It is not enough to have an idea. You must have an idea, know how to realise it and know how to market it propperly. Only then are you an inventor. Everybody has ideas:)
[2012/01/31 15:54]  Lem Skall: oh, information IS FREE if it’s public information
[2012/01/31 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do too, Rhi!
[2012/01/31 15:54]  Faith Mandrake: the era of the internet has just barely started, imho. to suggest that things are done a certain way here, is absurd.
[2012/01/31 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, stating but not proving it and trying to make me change my views based on shame rather than reason
[2012/01/31 15:54]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): rendering it to zero… theft of MEANS to an end
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Gwyn!
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Theft is the *intention* ;)
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Lem Skall: wow, I’m in agreement with extie ;P
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hehe Rhi)
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: Faith: yes! And we are just starting to discuss things like copyright in the context of the net!
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Faith Mandrake: theft is also a moral act
[2012/01/31 15:55]  LessWrong: @Gwyn the chief IP theft is conversion from direct compensation to indirect (i.e., through advertising)
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s the whole point
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: So is it impossible to make profit without copyright?
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No.
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: If a grain merchant leaves sacks of grain at night out in the market, he shouldn’t whine if the next morning half the grain has been stolen. If the merchant then has the raw nerve to start breaking down doors and do house to house searches for HIS STOLEN GRAIN he is going too far and should have put his grain in large jars or warehouses. Don’t bloody create a business model where you leave stuff lying around, and if you do don’t start bitching and hiring bullies and fascists to salvage your crap-ass delusional business model.
[2012/01/31 15:55]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): do not by pass the understanding that the internet is INTERPRETATION for and by PEOPLE..individuals…it is ‘waves’ of activity only
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It IS possible :)
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just hard!
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: it is possible
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Lem Skall: Extie, yes, make art as a service, like art on commission
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: :)
[2012/01/31 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If you don’t have a right to use your property, Gwyn, how can youu make a profit from it?
[2012/01/31 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: you do have the right to use it
[2012/01/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You have the same right as everybody else, Rhi — you just need to market it better and faster
[2012/01/31 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, you need ownership rights
[2012/01/31 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: in the world of no copyrights, everybody has the rights to copy, so yes, you do have them :)
[2012/01/31 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, that again is like saying to a woman who was a field whore during Nazi germany–well, it’s ok, not only can the men satisfy themselves sexually with you but you are free to masturbate.
[2012/01/31 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: If someone claims parts of the moon that doesn’t make it a valid business model. It’s frigging nonsense! Not based in physical reality!!
[2012/01/31 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: and you have the advantage of having that material before everybody else
[2012/01/31 15:57]  LessWrong: A key to ownership is control of the channels; that is basically the anti-VCR mindset of the entertainment industry
[2012/01/31 15:57]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): oh I think a bullet is fair payment…..bearing in mind….multi-billion potentail customers….and my means are diverted to getting their business…..
[2012/01/31 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: so as a content creator, you have an edge on the market
[2012/01/31 15:57]  Lem Skall: wow, Rhi, I don’t know what that was in reference to but I like it
[2012/01/31 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A typical example: Dickens in the 1850s. He wrote a book and got his British publisher to market it as quickly as possible, selling as many copies as they could, before American printers got hold of the book and made many more cheaper copies of it. Dickens was always trying to be a step ahead.
[2012/01/31 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, well, if they got there and started mining it, I wuld sa they ave rights
[2012/01/31 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: So, it looks like several here are pushing the moral idea, that if you CAN take it, you SHOULD take it. This is like blaming the victim for Rape.
[2012/01/31 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks, Lem
[2012/01/31 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But how many content creators have the fame of a Dickens?= :)
[2012/01/31 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In reference to Ivy’s notio that he creator has equal rights to all the other users
[2012/01/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: unfortunatley, that’s exactly it.
[2012/01/31 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: note: I’m not advocating that we should abandon copyright, I’m merely playing Devil’s advocate :)
[2012/01/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: By “redefining” what “value” means regarding to content creation, “Theft” gets redefined as well
[2012/01/31 15:58]  Khannea Suntzu: Yep. I agree Rhiannon. Presence and control makes a business model. Claiming the air as your property and then levvy an air tariff and beating everyone who breathes and calling them an “air pirate” is asking for a Guillotine.
[2012/01/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW, I *do* have a solution: taxation ;)
[2012/01/31 15:58]  Faith Mandrake: “creation” has also been redefined, i think that’s an additional problem
[2012/01/31 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, oh, replace private theft with public theft?
[2012/01/31 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: But what do you think of the idea that copyright should expire sooner than it currently does?
[2012/01/31 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Khan: well, we do that already – CO2 emission anyone? :D
[2012/01/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tax everybody, pool the money, pay artists from it. SImple. And let people copy as much as they want ;)
[2012/01/31 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I don’t think it should expire
[2012/01/31 15:59]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): give every individual on earth a serial number/chip and let them enter that into their creations and ‘work’ performed….then own it
[2012/01/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi! Touché :)
[2012/01/31 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: but then you don’t have competition, anyone can make a shitty song that nobody wants and make a living of it
[2012/01/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Faith: I disagree with that, “creation” has been relatively well defined since the mid-19th century
[2012/01/31 15:59]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, I disagree, how do you choose what artists deserve and how much?
[2012/01/31 16:00]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): tax no one….do not feed governents more than 10 % rich or poor…let them manage on the money
[2012/01/31 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: White your ideas are so grotesquely slap stick fascist I now label you a stand up comedienne.
[2012/01/31 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: I need to say here, I am internet savvy and have been for a long time. YET, I have NEVER once downloaded music for free when I didn’t have the right to do so. WHY? because I believe the creator has a right to be paid for her work. Simply.
[2012/01/31 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: the alternative is that nobody will write good songs, since they will be copied as soon as someone plays them once :)
[2012/01/31 16:00]  LessWrong: @Faith Yes. . . a performer can charge for the show and hope to collect on the digital show but if it is pirated, the backend is significantly less profitable
[2012/01/31 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … so you’ll end up with bad songs anyway
[2012/01/31 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, exactly, in order to distingush “good” from “bad” art, you need the marketplace, and the allocation of income from the consumer to the producer, i.e., the artist
[2012/01/31 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: But think of all the knowledge and art and entertainment that could be accessible for the good of humanity, but which is locked away under copyright laws.
[2012/01/31 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: or that they will self publish their songs on platforms like megabox?
[2012/01/31 16:00]  lufpleh Obstreperous: Gwyn, I hate art don’t want to consume it, why should I pay tax
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: ArCrash, compliments for being so nice. A billion starving chinese won’t give a flying hoor.
[2012/01/31 16:01]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): ‘f**k’ Humanity…I want my money….all of it
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: hoot.
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Faith Mandrake: everyone on facebook, flickr, google+. youtube, etc, fancies themselves a creator now. And the media companies control them, and crowdsource the content.
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: the problem with itunes is that itunes is still largely dependent on corporations
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that’s why I suggest taxation. Then you can release all that information for the public good, because it has become public property :)
[2012/01/31 16:01]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): I’m naive if I think creating my content and putting it out there won’t be used by someone else so I have to change my way of thinking else I’ll wind up nake like Rhiannon
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: in SL you don’t really need business skills to sell stuff
[2012/01/31 16:01]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): naked
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s a false dichotomy, WQ; if rpoducers get the money, they will produce and humanity profits
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Lem Skall: what Faith said
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: in fact, you don’t need any business skills to sell stuff in SL
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: You can have your money. BUt after two or three decades your material is public domain.
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: oih yes you do, IF you want to make a living of it!
[2012/01/31 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: you just put stuff on marketplace and it sells if it’s good
[2012/01/31 16:01]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): NO taxation……that is feeding money through mediocre self-invested middle men
[2012/01/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: White, I agree, but what alternative do you suggest?
[2012/01/31 16:02]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): wo then start a romance with doing big things because they can affrd the otys
[2012/01/31 16:02]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): toys
[2012/01/31 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: If someone starts selling naked pictures of me they took while I was fucking in Second Life for an outrageous profit I suppose I will be just that – screwed.
[2012/01/31 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: I really disagree :)
[2012/01/31 16:02]  Faith Mandrake: it sells on the marketplace if it meets certain criteria. Goodness is debatable.
[2012/01/31 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Jazz, are you suggesting I’m naked cuz I’m a loser? I get 1400L or more from my discussions a week
[2012/01/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My reasoning, btw, just follows how science is done in countries with publicly-funded research labs.
[2012/01/31 16:02]  Lem Skall: artists should just ask for donations from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
[2012/01/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: then suggest alternatives! Disagreeing is simple.
[2012/01/31 16:02]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): give government no more than 10% rich or poor…..make them manage on it
[2012/01/31 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: Don’t be silly Rhiannon, when I still escorfted I had days when I made over 12K a day.
[2012/01/31 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: how can I suggest alternative to “yes you need market skills”? :)
[2012/01/31 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: No it is not, Gwyn;)
[2012/01/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Science: the results are free. They’re public. Scientists still get paid. In countries with public research, everybody gets taxed so that science can be funded.
[2012/01/31 16:03]  Lem Skall: Khan, now there is a creative job!
[2012/01/31 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let me also say that as someone who is paid for their intellectual property on a regular basis, that no others in my situation that I know of stress of worry about basement use of their imagery. What we are concerned with is commercial use. This is where the stakes are higher and where the true Parasites are doing their dirty work.
[2012/01/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: exactly my point!
[2012/01/31 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: you just disagreed with me without providing any alternative. You don’t need any marketing skills to sell stuff on marketplace, period.
[2012/01/31 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah and I LOVE to service pirates, they come quickly.
[2012/01/31 16:03]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): no Rhiannon – I’m just saying if you want to murder someone for taking your avatar then stop throwing your avatar parts in my face :-)
[2012/01/31 16:03]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): artists and creators can form co-operatives if they are deesperate for common help and progression
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy; one thing is making a few L$. The other is *making a living*
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Faith Mandrake: if you get paid, then obviously you won’t care
[2012/01/31 16:04]  LessWrong: @Gwyn Science is often subsidized by the public and published into the private domain
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I never said I wanted to murder anybody for taking my avatar parts; I did report them to the lindens and they did take care of them
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: first, making a living of SL is a really really hard thing to do :)
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you can also tell artists to go begging for money on the street. They will get some money that way. Perhaps some will make a living too
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Billy (jerome.ronzales): what is copyright if not just one of the most important symbols of leadership?
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: second: if your content is amazingly good, it will market itself
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Less: yes. And isn’t it wonderful? :)
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it’s my right to have the shape i want to in SL, or do you deny that?
[2012/01/31 16:04]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): nude is one thing…’naked’ doesn’t wear make up, updo’s and heels if it is just nude. those things are to allure and are a prostitution
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: indeed.
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Lem Skall: Ivy, you’re dreaming
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Now science. All too often when I try to access a scientific paper I am charged for it so I do not bother. And who knows, me reading that paper might lead to world piece! So you can see how seeking to profit has made humankind poorer. Yes.
[2012/01/31 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: I’m not dreaming
[2012/01/31 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve made quite a hefty amount of money in SL
[2012/01/31 16:05]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): world peace?
[2012/01/31 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: on marketplace
[2012/01/31 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: and I’ve *NEVER* advertised *ANYTHING*
[2012/01/31 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ivy that statement of content marketing itself is absurd.
[2012/01/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: sure, but that depend a lot on where you are searching for.
[2012/01/31 16:05]  LessWrong: @Gwyn depends upon how you like paying premiums for things like branded drugs
[2012/01/31 16:05]  Lem Skall: Ivy, content is all relative so it doesn’t value easily and therefore it doesn’t market itself
[2012/01/31 16:05]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): I totally understand what you’re saying I’m just saying people are going to like your work and they will want to copy it so you just have to keep building and creating if you’re making that much money on one avatar then you’re known to be the best and will remain as people continue to copy your work
[2012/01/31 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, that’s exactly the issue, isn’t it WQ, Jezz? Withouth property rights, r their equilvalent, people can impose their deas on others.
[2012/01/31 16:05]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): shah amy event is on…..bye for now folkies….good chat;;;
[2012/01/31 16:05]  WHITE Queen (queen.bluestar): ty
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can read journals for free on libraries and copy articles from there and make notes. Oh, so you want to do it *from the comfort of your home*. Tough! That luxury has a price.
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And yes, Ive been a protitute in real life; it’s my right to get income formm my body.
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: it does market itself by the people who use it
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: if it’s good it goes viral
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: if it’s not – it doesn’t
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: just for SOME.
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Lem Skall: Ivy, sometimes
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes. I might read it, make a comment, which inspires a question and so on and it results in world piece.
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Lem Skall: what Gwyn said
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the problem with the “content-for.-free” models. They work… for some.
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: how did you get to know you favorite writer?
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Faith Mandrake: content makers make content, and content marketers sell it. If one can do the other thing, that’s great, but usually the balance isn’t ver even.
[2012/01/31 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: Copyright doesn’t apply to ideas btw. ONly to finished products.
[2012/01/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: so, you get science for free on libraries.
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I met her at Thinkers in Neufreidsatdt, Ivy.
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: I bought a book from him!
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, it doesn’t apply at all for idea, just for the expression of them
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Lem Skall: and btw, bad stuff can go viral too, have you seen some of the viral stuff on YT?
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: well, good for you, most people don’t do that though :)
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Him? I thought I was your favourite writer!
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: *sobs*
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Billy (jerome.ronzales): copyright is a term for law and governments tax the user..
[2012/01/31 16:07]  LessWrong: A significant number of creators use copyrighted fabrics in the design of their clothes
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, Extie :) I’m afraid that my favourite author is still Terry Pratchett :)
[2012/01/31 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh fair enough.
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/01/31 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: Copyright is there for a reason. And that reason is that intellectual property has value. Just as physical goods have value.
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: there was an author, I can dig out the name later, who was concerned that his books are being pirated in russia
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, oh, I’m sorry. Is there a cure? lol
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: month later
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, RHi! ㋡
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: his sales in russia spiked
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Faith Mandrake: saying that ‘fair use’ laws should be made clearer, and more liberal, is NOT the same as suggesting everyone give away their creations.
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, must be the vodka
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: he asked his publisher to release a book for free
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: they did so
[2012/01/31 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: the problem is that these are all anedoctes and edge cases.
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: sadly so, yes
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have a huge collection of those edge cases :)
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, not “sadly so”:
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Faith, that is true; there does have to be a balance; evern on the property rights model, there are exceptions
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s how things are!
[2012/01/31 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Are we talking fair use here? I though we were talking about doing away with copyright as a concept….
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, but there is a point there about being creative in marketing
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, Lem!
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And marketeers are expensive beasts…
[2012/01/31 16:09]  LessWrong: @Ivy there are bands like Cowboy Junkies that have done world tours where people have them sign albums they didn’t release
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: we can talk about fair use as well.
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: if we had good statistics on it, we wouldn’t have to have this discussion :)
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Faith Mandrake: the two are often confused, by people like the CC consortium
[2012/01/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We would anyway, Ivy…
[2012/01/31 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, statistics would still e intepreted, so yeah, we would
[2012/01/31 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … because the point is that *people don’t want to pay*
[2012/01/31 16:10]  LessWrong: @Ivy not individual songs but whole albums. . .under labels
[2012/01/31 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Rhi
[2012/01/31 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: Less: that’s counter-fitting, not copyright infringement :)
[2012/01/31 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We would be just shrugging off all statistics
[2012/01/31 16:10]  LessWrong: @Ivy it is a copyright violation
[2012/01/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “who cares that 250 million artists cannot get paid for their work! Tough! We have here a nice list of about 5,000 artists who have ebgaged in alternative busines smodels and make a living of it, so all those 250 millions must just be STUPID and WORTHLESS”.
[2012/01/31 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: how is selling something you haven’t made copyright violation? :D
[2012/01/31 16:11]  LessWrong: @Ivy I am talking published under “3rd World Inc.”
[2012/01/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *engaged
[2012/01/31 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: I mean
[2012/01/31 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: grammar fail
[2012/01/31 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: So tell me, if I see a book by an Author I like, why should I have the right to read that for free? I want that commodity, just like I want a sandwich. They are the same.
[2012/01/31 16:11]  Faith Mandrake: Faith Mandrake doubts there are 250 million artists
[2012/01/31 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, well, in the example you used, it was
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, I’m sure there are 250M artists who don’t deserve to get paid because their work is not worth it
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: how is selling something the artist X made under artist X label copyright violation
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: <questionmark>
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s not the point; we’re not talking about quality
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yes, even more so, as the art work is a special act of creation
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Faith Mandrake: Faith Mandrake high-fives lem
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Lem Skall: yay, Faith
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of the millions of scientific papers that are published every year, just a handful will make it to Nobel prize winners.
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Faith Mandrake: art is hard.
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can high five Lem on that too :)
[2012/01/31 16:12]  Faith Mandrake: science is not art
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Lem Skall: scientific papers can be crap too even if they get published
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But all those sub-Nobel-prize-quality papers were written by scientists who were paid for their job and have their content protected
[2012/01/31 16:13]  LessWrong: @Ivy Art X produces songs X, Y and Z and a label publishes Y and Z without the permission of the artist
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Faith Mandrake: not in this context anyway
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Faith: I know; but copyright is not just about “art”
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Faith, well all science uses art in it’s imagination
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Copyright protects software development. And scientific papers.
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Faith Mandrake: it is artisanship
[2012/01/31 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Don’t forget we are not talking about ideas here. we are talking about finished works or writing, film, photography, paining,… etc.
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Faith Mandrake: vs. artistry
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Copyright remains an arbitrary edict. People who are poor….. people who have different conceptions on what constitutes property or possession… people who have been victimized by the entertainment industry, or by corporations or by the capotalist system…. they have some arguments to totally ignore copyrights as an utterly arbitrary and inconsequential legalistic construct. If I were an alien arriving on Earth I wouldn’t consider myself bound to any stinking IP’s. If I am a Kalahari in central Africa, why would the whole idea have any pressing moral argument for me? It;s so bloody arbitrary.
[2012/01/31 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: okay, and how does the Artist X lose anything on it?
[2012/01/31 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: not Lem, Less
[2012/01/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Faith, but we’re discussing “content creation” overall, not just art.
[2012/01/31 16:14]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): Whew Khannea
[2012/01/31 16:14]  LessWrong: @Ivy In the countries the Cowboy Junkies played, their own releases were almost unheard of
[2012/01/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: why should the right to be paid for your work be considered “arbitrary”?only aliens from communist utopias would think that way :)
[2012/01/31 16:15]  LessWrong: @Ivy they lost the income from the illegal publishing of their works
[2012/01/31 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: So being poor means you get to take whatever you want? Where is the logic in that?
[2012/01/31 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Ah come on.
[2012/01/31 16:15]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, btw, scientists don’t get paid for papers published but it helps them get better jobs that pay more
[2012/01/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, disregard the personal attack:; just focus on teh first part.
[2012/01/31 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: Less: but you just said those were *not their songs*, so the money that were made were in fact made *NOT on their work*
[2012/01/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: that’s why I suggest a similar model for the rest of the content creators.
[2012/01/31 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, it’s supposed to be part of their compensation from the University
[2012/01/31 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes. If I a desperately poor and have no chance to win in the current system, seriously, FUCK the system.
[2012/01/31 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lem, as I have stated previously IDEAS are not copyrightable.
[2012/01/31 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A third of your income is represented by your research, supposedly
[2012/01/31 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: the only offense there is counter-fitting for using the brand, *NOT* copyright violation
[2012/01/31 16:16]  Lem Skall: Art, a paper is not an idea
[2012/01/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wellllllll
[2012/01/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s…. very debatable :)
[2012/01/31 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: This copyright idea doesn’t affect science or progress.
[2012/01/31 16:16]  Lem Skall: not JUST an idea
[2012/01/31 16:16]  LessWrong: @Ivy I am a fail at this . . . that is not what I said
[2012/01/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sometimes it can be “just an idea”, Lem
[2012/01/31 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: Less: sorry, maybe I read wrong
[2012/01/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Written down, though
[2012/01/31 16:16]  LessWrong: Thanks for the chat all
[2012/01/31 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: The ideas in the paper are not protected. ONly the writing of the paper is protected.
[2012/01/31 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, of course! Sorry!
[2012/01/31 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh you leaving, LessWrong?
[2012/01/31 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, Less
[2012/01/31 16:17]  Lem Skall: Art, agreed, so what is your point?
[2012/01/31 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (bye, Less!)
[2012/01/31 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: If so, take care and thanks for your comments!
[2012/01/31 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: My point Lem, is that Science is not negatively affected by copyright law.
[2012/01/31 16:18]  Billy (jerome.ronzales): that alt sounds promising
[2012/01/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, and you know why, Art? :)
[2012/01/31 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, from the double negative, do you mean to say that it *is* affected? I would agree with that
[2012/01/31 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: YEs I know why. Because IDEAS are not copyrightable.
[2012/01/31 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: why, Gwyn?
[2012/01/31 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: and thank goodness for that :D
[2012/01/31 16:18]  Lem Skall: not negatively affected by what copyright does or by what it doesn’t do?
[2012/01/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because if scientists had to find ways to “market” their ideas, they would be as badly off as artists today. Instead, society has recognised that nobody wants to pay for science, so money is pooled together to pay scientists…
[2012/01/31 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: The idea tha copyright law will stop human progress is not really supportable… is all I’m saying.
[2012/01/31 16:19]  Billy (jerome.ronzales): cyas, thanks for the gathering
[2012/01/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, in countries with State-sponsored science, everybody is taxed to fund science
[2012/01/31 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: artists are bad today, because their corporations pay them crap from the actual revenues
[2012/01/31 16:20]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, but scientists DO market their ideas, papers do that
[2012/01/31 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Clearly you are correct Art, because we do have copyright and progress continues apace.
[2012/01/31 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: the evidence is strongly against it. After all, we have had 150 years of copyright laws. Look at how much progress we did in the past 150 years compared to the past 1500 or 15,000!
[2012/01/31 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: and enforcing copyright does not help it :)
[2012/01/31 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: sure. That’s a different question.-
[2012/01/31 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I couldn’t care less about copyright being “enforced” or not. What matters to me is that artists DO get paid.
[2012/01/31 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If we get rid of copyright, how do ALL artists get paid? Not just a few. Not just “teh ones that are good”.
[2012/01/31 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: we need a loose copyright (but some copyright for sure) and a direct content creator – content user business models
[2012/01/31 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: like mentioned megabox
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or iTunes ;)
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Lem Skall: wait, actors for instance can get paid A LOT or they can be making a living as waiters
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: appstore is another good example
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: can I put my own stuff on iTunes?
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure!
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: great :)
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, that’s one way to enforce them; it’s what was the solution with file sharing
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A small fee to be paid in order to download music
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Set yourself up on Blip.TV, it exports to iTunes neatly, and you get ad revenue on Blip.TV as a bonus, too ;)
[2012/01/31 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: Acting doesn’t apply to the copyright argument btw…. That is ANOTHER set of laws… heh
[2012/01/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I completely agree with that.
[2012/01/31 16:23]  Faith Mandrake: if you don’t mind ads
[2012/01/31 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: the solution to stop your copyrighted material from being shared, is to share it easier and faster than the illegal sources
[2012/01/31 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Faith. *Someone* has got to pay in ?some* form :)
[2012/01/31 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: people will pay a dollar for a song that they can download right now right here
[2012/01/31 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I mean, yeah, we’re going to have to adapt copyright to fit the digital age. And I agree with that too, Ivy
[2012/01/31 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, the Dickens argument… well, see what Dickens had to say about that, Ivy :)
[2012/01/31 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: thank you :)
[2012/01/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I suppose that the alternative is to get public funds to create more MegaUpload clones… ;)
[2012/01/31 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): One friend of mine alway has his stuff stolen, he does protest to eBay and so forth as a matter of form, but he comes out with newer versions of his stuff, makes monehy from it, and leaes the thief in th dust
[2012/01/31 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Mostly copyright laws get subverted by corporations who pay a pittance for the right and then gouge at the other end. But that is a problem with Capitalism not copyright.
[2012/01/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Totally agree, Art
[2012/01/31 16:24]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): I love that thinking Rhiannon
[2012/01/31 16:25]  Lem Skall: here’s an idea, if you can make good art then put it on t-shirts and sell that
[2012/01/31 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: I don’t see that as a good alternative for reasons mentioned above. It can work with science, but with science it’s easier to measure who gets results and who produces uncomprehending crap :).
[2012/01/31 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That is a problem with artists not negotiating enough money and not recognizing the other contributers in the corporation, not with capitalism
[2012/01/31 16:25]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): not saying its right that his work is stolen
[2012/01/31 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thank you, Jazz
[2012/01/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: yes, use CafePress!
[2012/01/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: you would think so…. even if it’s not true. Har har.
[2012/01/31 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: I know -__
[2012/01/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I actually suggest peer-reviewed publication of art, too
[2012/01/31 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: -_-*
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Faith Mandrake: sorry, but that’s only a solution for artists whose are is well represented on a t-shirt.
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (see my latest article on that ;) )
[2012/01/31 16:26]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): by the way rhiannon – I do love your avatar :-)
[2012/01/31 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: So Gwyn’s point earlier that creators are in the business of creation and not marketing and distribution is a good one.
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Faith: agreed. Again, it’s just another edge case
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmmmm!
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: Poem
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): thanks, Jazz
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’mm gla we’re friendly again
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I cannot take credit for that idea, but I’m definitely a strong supporter of that.
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Faith Mandrake: but it’s the edge case that cory doctorow’s followers often give
[2012/01/31 16:26]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): m2
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Faith Mandrake: ‘sell t shirts’
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: not yet, sweets. 4 minutes on the clock
[2012/01/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Faith: EXACTLY. As said, there are *thousands* of edge cases,
[2012/01/31 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and based on such edge cases,
[2012/01/31 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: Ok!
[2012/01/31 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: Should employees of companies need to do all the phases of company production in order to deserve to be paid for their labors?
[2012/01/31 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: anti-copyrighters create this idea that there are valid alternatives.
[2012/01/31 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cory, for instance, can afford to publish things for free… he gets his monthly salary from his university AND makes money from lectures. So, sure, he can give things away.
[2012/01/31 16:28]  Faith Mandrake: his entire fortune is based on using other people’s free content.
[2012/01/31 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: :)
[2012/01/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s ultimately the point, Art.
[2012/01/31 16:28]  Faith Mandrake: boingboing
[2012/01/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Faith: yes hehe
[2012/01/31 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: maybe there are alternatives that we don’t yet know about. Like with money, one day bitcoin comes and we are like “heeeeeeey!”
[2012/01/31 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, they are paid for their contribution; in a well run company, it reflects their productivity
[2012/01/31 16:28]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, but Cory gets paid a lot by his university because he’s famous and he’s famous because of the stuff he does for free
[2012/01/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: I agree, but we need to discuss THOSe alternatives first, THEN abolish copyright law.
[2012/01/31 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: oh yes, of course :)
[2012/01/31 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: What bothers me with todays ‘internet generation’ is the constantly stated idea that all digital content should be free. This seems to be a motto I hear so often. And it sounds great on first hearing till you realize what they are really saying is ” Gimme gimme gimme…. I want! And hell with everyone else”
[2012/01/31 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: but we can’t set our copyright laws in stone either
[2012/01/31 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: again, Cory is his own edge case.
[2012/01/31 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: which is something ACTA is now trying to do
[2012/01/31 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: He’s a slick motherfucker
[2012/01/31 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Cory is hard in his presentations, smooth guy.
[2012/01/31 16:29]  Lem Skall: it pays to be a slick motherfucker
[2012/01/31 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: depends on how rich the mom is
[2012/01/31 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I’m all against the “paranoid enforcement”, because it’s hitting at the wrong end of the spectrum: it’s protecting *distribution*, not *creation*
[2012/01/31 16:30]  Lem Skall: lol, Ivy
[2012/01/31 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah more or less Gwyn
[2012/01/31 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Ivy!
[2012/01/31 16:30]  Faith Mandrake: i believe cory’s parents were professors, he’s canadian.
[2012/01/31 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it because to produce the first of anything takes time and effort but to produce the second..the hundredth…the 100 millionth…takes no effort at all, Art? And so cheap it is virtually free. I mean how much does it take to copy a string of bits?
[2012/01/31 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: The idea isn”t that you shouldn’t do things for free. You can and should. The idea is you shouldn’t be FORCED to do things for free.
[2012/01/31 16:31]  Faith Mandrake: so no worries about health insurance, for starters
[2012/01/31 16:31]  Lem Skall: it pays to be canadian
[2012/01/31 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Mother nature is rich and bountilful, great to do mom, pays great dividends.
[2012/01/31 16:31]  Lem Skall: mother nature as a milf
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: let’s end this discussion with a nice copyright violation (or not really):
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That reminds me of my discussion with my cousin… he’s all for copyright theft… because he has tenure at a State-sponsored university :) If he had to make a living from selling articles to magazines, he’d very quickly change opinion
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: :)
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Well Wikipedia asks for donations rather than say ‘you! Gimme MONEY or you ain’t gettin NUFFINK!’.
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Lem Skall: I won’t click the link so I don’t steal
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, Ayn Rand called tenured professors “subsidized minds.”
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Anyone wants to see Haywire? Its a GREAT movie. I have a copy on Dropbox. Email me and I’ll share it.
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s a lot different if you have to earn a living on your own, without government help
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: I wonder how wikipedia would have fared if it copyrighted every page?
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: remember that MOST of the content on Wikipedia (not all; most!) is written by professors who get paid for writing things like WIkipedia…
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds glaresa at Khannea
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Lem Skall: Extie, poem
[2012/01/31 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Someone sliced up the pie back in days long ago / where he got the knife we do not know / so while many labor for our daily bread / not having a share in the sweet leaves us all terribly sad / all we see is an uneven set of portions of the banquet / and if only we had bigger knives we wouldn’t regret / protest I can’t against what was arbitrarily decided / and if we protest we are by default derided / some would go as far as take the same cake cutting knife / and stab the crumbs in our gut and take our very life / they don’t care how much money I do or do not make / and as far as they are concerned they’d rather let me die than let me have cake.
[2012/01/31 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Woah.
[2012/01/31 16:33]  Lem Skall: follow THAT, extie
[2012/01/31 16:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie: I think we need to look at intellectual Property as a commodity. If someone WANTS it, then the person who controls it should have the right to negotiate with the one who wants it. So it is a negotiation like all commodities.
[2012/01/31 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Khannea….
[2012/01/31 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent point, Art
[2012/01/31 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I cannot Lem. Khannea beats me once again!
[2012/01/31 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/01/31 16:34]  Khannea Suntzu: :P
[2012/01/31 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK My time is up!
This entry was posted in after thinkers. Bookmark the permalink.

One Response to Thinkers Jan 31 2012: CORY AND COPYRIGHTS

  1. Pingback: Paying content creators with micropayments « Gwyn's Home

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