THINKERS JAN 04 2011: HAIL TO THE CHIEF

Alfred Kelberry at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers 2011![2011/01/04 15:32]  Olav Svenson: firestorm or something will take over the progression, but there adding in the UI so thatt was why.. i guess adding that into phoenix might deter ppl’s interest in the viewer.[2011/01/04 15:33]  Lem Skall: welcome to 2011![2011/01/04 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: happy New year![2011/01/04 15:33]  Olav Svenson: err.. or it’s the ppl who are working on it.. are apart from the phoenix team..[2011/01/04 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Gwyn, hii![2011/01/04 15:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: speaking of tthe devil[2011/01/04 15:33]  Lem Skall: hi Gwyn[2011/01/04 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: As you are no doubt aware, LL will soon have a new CEO. Some say he is the Kwizatz Haderac who will brings us to the promised land of a perfect SL![2011/01/04 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is definitely not the devil ;)[2011/01/04 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me *coughs*[2011/01/04 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: But, we are here to discuss…[2011/01/04 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Does appointing EA executive and videogame developer Rob Humble as CEO of Linden Lab send the right message regarding what SL is, or not?[2011/01/04 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me loves Dune references[2011/01/04 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: First, what message does it, in fact, send?[2011/01/04 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: (Will give more once she has drunk the waters of life)[2011/01/04 15:34]  Lem Skall: sne==end message to whom? new users, old ones?[2011/01/04 15:34]  Alfred Kelberry: do you go to linden hours?[2011/01/04 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: What do we know about this guy?[2011/01/04 15:34]  Rayne Queller: what is this [2011/01/04 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: Sims, EverCrack[2011/01/04 15:34]  Lem Skall: send*[2011/01/04 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He looks geeky? :)[2011/01/04 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He designs “art games”[2011/01/04 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: considering how large company EA is[2011/01/04 15:35]  Lem Skall: yeah, what message does it send that he looks geeky?[2011/01/04 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: seems his refference fits the LL needs[2011/01/04 15:35]  Rayne Queller: 93! [2011/01/04 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Biggest games company of all, I think.[2011/01/04 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Biggest games *distributor* in terms of sales, yes :)[2011/01/04 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: sims part worries me a bit, but maybe he can get buying shoes right![2011/01/04 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah.[2011/01/04 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: From what I have read about Him, he was the guy at his company that said that user created content was the most important thing…..[2011/01/04 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh really, Art? Mmmh. That sounds promising![2011/01/04 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, what would the ‘perfect LL CEO’ do?[2011/01/04 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: judge the man by his actions, not words! :)[2011/01/04 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sit back and relax.[2011/01/04 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me thinks about her primary’s prime minister and shrugs[2011/01/04 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The less he interferes, the beter :)[2011/01/04 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: From our perspective, not the company’s? (assuming a conflict of interests)[2011/01/04 15:36]  Alfred Kelberry: ivy, well said[2011/01/04 15:36]  Lem Skall: is his job not in effect yet?[2011/01/04 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *better even[2011/01/04 15:37]  Rayne Queller: anyone here like folk music? [2011/01/04 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, he needs some training time — 2-3 months at least[2011/01/04 15:37]  Lem Skall: but has he made any statements yet?[2011/01/04 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: I like Steeleye span. BUt that is beside the topic, really.[2011/01/04 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh. No. Not yet, Lem.[2011/01/04 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think they want to use his skills in marketing and promoting SL to a more mass market….[2011/01/04 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh-oh, Art[2011/01/04 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope not :)[2011/01/04 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The previous CEO tried that for 2 years and failed…[2011/01/04 15:38]  Lem Skall: Art, why do you think that?[2011/01/04 15:38]  Alfred Kelberry: art is right[2011/01/04 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is simply NOT a mainstream product.[2011/01/04 15:38]  Lem Skall: boxy, why do you think so?[2011/01/04 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: I saw somewhere where someone had mentioned that…. ha ha I wish I had the reference[2011/01/04 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s like trying to sell Macs to the mainstream :) It doesn’t work…[2011/01/04 15:38]  Alfred Kelberry: cause they want to grow[2011/01/04 15:38]  Rayne Queller: macs suck [2011/01/04 15:39]  Lem Skall: Art, someone from inside LL or just another speculation of an SL user?[2011/01/04 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My point precisely, rayne :)[2011/01/04 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, it is hard to make the mainstream join a cult, Gwyn! ha ha ha[2011/01/04 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Err.. . The mainstream has been buying an awful lot of Macs lately.[2011/01/04 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Arch:)[2011/01/04 15:39]  Rayne Queller: yeah, spending too much for crap [2011/01/04 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nevertheless, just because a product is not mainstream, it doesnn’t mean it doesn’t make money… Apple is the largest company in the world in terms of market valuation ;)[2011/01/04 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: 10% is not “mainstream”[2011/01/04 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 10% is “niche market”[2011/01/04 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s up to 12 now, I think. And still growing.[2011/01/04 15:39]  Lem Skall: Apple is mainstream ENOUGH[2011/01/04 15:40]  Rayne Queller: that refuses to run software that it could run, but steve jobs is an ass[2011/01/04 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Market valuation = stock price x number of shares[2011/01/04 15:40]  Lem Skall: iPods and iPads ARE mainstream btw[2011/01/04 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Pretty remarkably growth rate when you consider where they’ve come from over the last 10-12 years or so.[2011/01/04 15:40]  Lem Skall: and iPhones too[2011/01/04 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: only when they’re new[2011/01/04 15:40]  Rayne Queller: ubuntu linux is free and easy to use, it should replace windows [2011/01/04 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now *that’s* an even smaller niche market, Rayne :)[2011/01/04 15:40]  Lem Skall: linux is not easy to use, it’s just easier than before[2011/01/04 15:41]  Alfred Kelberry: they don’t care too much about first adopters right now cause our time has passed and they moved on to a new product cycle[2011/01/04 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s easier than Windows :P[2011/01/04 15:41]  Rayne Queller: it’s pretty easy [2011/01/04 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: after iphone alarm clocks going nuts over 2011 year change, more and more people considers iphones more of a nice gadged than a serious phone[2011/01/04 15:41]  Rayne Queller: it has an installer program now [2011/01/04 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Ivy — yes, perhaps[2011/01/04 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Apple, linux, and all that is relevant to the topic because…?[2011/01/04 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because it shows that you don’t need to be a mainstream product to make money, Extie.[2011/01/04 15:41]  Rayne Queller: and ubuntu is much easier to make compatible [2011/01/04 15:41]  Luisa Bourgoin: how does a CEO impact a company?[2011/01/04 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Because we are all nerds, Extie! ha ha[2011/01/04 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the lesson that M Linden has learned the hard way.[2011/01/04 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let’s hope Humble gets it too[2011/01/04 15:42]  Lem Skall: Luisa, vision[2011/01/04 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: It relates to SL’s market potential. . . whether it’s destined to never be more than a limited niche market, or whether we can have dizzying growth once again.[2011/01/04 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Zo[2011/01/04 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, at least we know he is. Humble, I mean.[2011/01/04 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie[2011/01/04 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Like when Anshe Chung was in Newsweek or whatever. :)[2011/01/04 15:42]  Rayne Queller: Let’s all switch to BSD [2011/01/04 15:42]  Luisa Bourgoin: vision, yes. but if a CEO arrives late, he has lesser impact on that original vision[2011/01/04 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is on BSD no, Rayne ;)[2011/01/04 15:42]  Rayne Queller: Dragon fly, we can tech support eachother [2011/01/04 15:42]  Luisa Bourgoin: how SL has been designed. you can’t turn it arround 180° every week[2011/01/04 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, I intend to start 2011 like I ended 2010: Punning all the way![2011/01/04 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh[2011/01/04 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me grins[2011/01/04 15:42]  Alfred Kelberry: everyone having an iphone these days, i don’t see how it’s not mainstream[2011/01/04 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m sorry but Rod Humble sounds like a porn star name….. he he he[2011/01/04 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL Art!!!![2011/01/04 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh my[2011/01/04 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: how has nobody spotted that before?[2011/01/04 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is really laughing iRL now![2011/01/04 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: iphone is mainsteam, Apple is not perhaps?[2011/01/04 15:43]  Rayne Queller: SL needs to stop upgrading without regaurds to people who don’t have $2000 computers [2011/01/04 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: “Pound it in me Rod!”[2011/01/04 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: yeah, works[2011/01/04 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Rayne, you are so right![2011/01/04 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Apple is very mainstream, they have a bigger market cap than Microsoft now.[2011/01/04 15:43]  Rayne Queller: I have a lappy, I can’t even see the groaphics anymore [2011/01/04 15:44]  Rayne Queller: I bet, that is why so many left SL and so many sims shut down [2011/01/04 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Rayne, that would mean that SL wouldn’t be SL any longer :) The question is, would that make it “mainstream”?[2011/01/04 15:44]  Archmage Atlantis: Depends on the community, in the artistic and publishing communities, Apple is dominant.[2011/01/04 15:44]  Alfred Kelberry: ext, main or not, they all want more people on board[2011/01/04 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: You should get a decent Alienware lappy, next time Rayne.[2011/01/04 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why “more people”? They could settle for “more money” instead.[2011/01/04 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: sims shut down as cost of them raises, that’s simple :)[2011/01/04 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arch: they were; not any longer[2011/01/04 15:44]  Rayne Queller: it’s a 6 year old toshiba [2011/01/04 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: My laptop computer which worked fine for two years with SL, suddenly can’t log on anymore due to ‘poor graphics’ according to LL.[2011/01/04 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: doesn’t really have anything to do with client requirements[2011/01/04 15:44]  Alfred Kelberry: they come from more people[2011/01/04 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: If they get the server-rendered video streaming thingamie to work, it could solve a lot of hardware requirement problems.[2011/01/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really, boxy[2011/01/04 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: And usher in a lot of bandwidth problems. . .[2011/01/04 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: and with mesh arriving, we can actually make *less* processor power demanding graphics within SL, as we can optimize every polygon[2011/01/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Take BMW as an example. They don’t need to be mainstream to make money :)[2011/01/04 15:45]  Lem Skall: anyway, I don’t think LL is into making money, they care more about making a revolution[2011/01/04 15:45]  Rayne Queller: yeah and when the sim owners can’t run SL anymore, becaues they upgraded beyond their graphics [2011/01/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: that was Philip’s vision….[2011/01/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And if you’re right,[2011/01/04 15:45]  Lem Skall: I think that is still the intent, it’s just a matter of how to get there[2011/01/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it means that SL will be less and less mainstream[2011/01/04 15:45]  Luisa Bourgoin: /me *waves* at Frog[2011/01/04 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Things will be worse now we have a videogaming CEO. Get used to upgrading your graphics card every 5 minutes to avoid feeling as though your PC is a dinosaur;)[2011/01/04 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: One reason that it MIGHT have to do with hardware is that if you have bad hardware SL can be very frustrating with Lag etc. Enough to make one give up.[2011/01/04 15:46]  Rayne Queller: then they should make building easier. because it’s impossible to do [2011/01/04 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: why so Extie? Isn’t Sims not so demanding game?[2011/01/04 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Joke.[2011/01/04 15:46]  Walking Frog: AND WHATS THE DEAL WITH AIRPLANE PEANUTS?[2011/01/04 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Rayne, maybe we should have made the boss of Legos CEO?[2011/01/04 15:46]  Luisa Bourgoin: err no peanuts here[2011/01/04 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: games doesn’t not always go hand in hand with top tier machines[2011/01/04 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, technical improvements will be naturally welcome, although I seriously doubt that they can do anything *radical*[2011/01/04 15:47]  Rayne Queller: also make the stuff wear out [2011/01/04 15:47]  Rayne Queller: so that you have to make it out of something [2011/01/04 15:47]  Alfred Kelberry: gwyn, mainstream is a societal perception. any company including bmw wants to grow their market share and increase sales.[2011/01/04 15:47]  Rayne Queller: and rebuy it some times [2011/01/04 15:47]  Rayne Queller: that will stimulate the SL economy [2011/01/04 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Instead of calling SL a gaming platform, it should be marketed as an entertainment platform with multiple types of entertainment available, I think.[2011/01/04 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, the hardware requirements don’t seem to be as much of a problem as they used to. My iMac is doing perfectly OK, and it’s not exactly new. It only could use some more video RAM.[2011/01/04 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’d rather have them do some technical upgrades on the servers[2011/01/04 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: :p[2011/01/04 15:47]  Archmage Atlantis: Is there a specific topic tonight? Or just general discussion? …… Anyone?[2011/01/04 15:47]  Rayne Queller: also be able to break stuff and take other’s stuff [2011/01/04 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They can create a “dumbed-down” version of SL, which would attract a fringe market — non-mainstreamers willing to join SL, but not upgrade their computers… I wonder how small that market actually is, and if it’s worth developing for it.[2011/01/04 15:48]  Rayne Queller: and maybe have to use objects as tool to make other things [2011/01/04 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Why not just put an expiry date? You buy something and after X amount of time it vanishes and you have to buy it again.[2011/01/04 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I like that; change the marketing pitch.[2011/01/04 15:48]  Lem Skall: going back to the topic, WHAT is SL and who has decided that?[2011/01/04 15:48]  Luisa Bourgoin: the hardware will cover up eventually[2011/01/04 15:48]  Rayne Queller: necessity drives economics [2011/01/04 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha Extie[2011/01/04 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, *get* a marketing pitch. They have none now.[2011/01/04 15:48]  Rayne Queller: but SL has no necsesity [2011/01/04 15:48]  Rayne Queller: no necessity and no scarcity [2011/01/04 15:48]  Luisa Bourgoin: mere luxury?[2011/01/04 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: a CEO can certainly decide what SL is “for the media” ;)[2011/01/04 15:49]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, that eventually also influences what SL really is[2011/01/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rayne, not in physical terms, but there is more to that[2011/01/04 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Since Arch asked..I was kind of hoping this discussion would get around to the gamification of SL, and if that could work and if not why not.[2011/01/04 15:49]  Rayne Queller: if I give you something, I still have mine too [2011/01/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The problem with “gamification” is: who designs the games?[2011/01/04 15:49]  Rayne Queller: but all I can to is hold it, [2011/01/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL? They are firing developers, not hiring them.[2011/01/04 15:49]  Olav Svenson: lol[2011/01/04 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: SL does have scarcity. Scarcity due to price.[2011/01/04 15:49]  Archmage Atlantis: Tks, Extie :)[2011/01/04 15:49]  Alfred Kelberry: gwyn, actually, it’s a common rant within first adopters. when their beloved ecosystem changes and moves on to a new level, it’s hard to accept it.[2011/01/04 15:49]  Ataraxia Azemus: I’m fine with SL using gamey technology to do not-gamey things.[2011/01/04 15:49]  Rayne Queller: there is really no reason I should need to have any objects [2011/01/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Residents? They don’t have enough money to do, say, a Half-Life clone in SL[2011/01/04 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: boxy: everybody fears change :D[2011/01/04 15:50]  Alfred Kelberry: yes, and i say be open to it :)[2011/01/04 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Except a psychological one, Rayne :)[2011/01/04 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW, I did briefly try a social-MMO type environment that seemed to take most of its inspiration from console videogames.[2011/01/04 15:50]  Rayne Queller: there is not any reason [2011/01/04 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Atari: it’s more than technology that SL could use from games. There are features, especially in MMOs, that SL could adapt and would be a great improvement, that have no gaming value in themselves[2011/01/04 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m trying to remember the name of it right now. . .[2011/01/04 15:50]  Archmage Atlantis: I wouldn’t say “fears” change, more inconvenienced by it.[2011/01/04 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t think people care about things changing. What people fear is that the change will result in a ‘dumbing down’ and loss of function.[2011/01/04 15:51]  Rayne Queller: all objects are the same thing, just different shapes [2011/01/04 15:51]  Alfred Kelberry: it’s going to happen despite what a few hundreds of avs in sl think[2011/01/04 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Need no objects? I cannot imagine anything more pointless than SL with zero inventory. Nothing.[2011/01/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sort of, Art. Look at the slow adoption rate of the Sl 2.0 viewer….[2011/01/04 15:51]  Rayne Queller: really you can’t even like put a key in a boor [2011/01/04 15:51]  Rayne Queller: door [2011/01/04 15:51]  Rayne Queller: things have no use [2011/01/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Things have the value people give them :)[2011/01/04 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Just noting, there are a few out there. They are interesting in some ways. . . But they don’t have a user-created world, that’s the main shortcoming.[2011/01/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Economy 101)[2011/01/04 15:51]  Alfred Kelberry: art, step out from the sl example for a minute :)[2011/01/04 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: My Seren’s bed has a use:)[2011/01/04 15:51]  Rayne Queller: Second life is basically just a chat room [2011/01/04 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Franja! Happy new year :)[2011/01/04 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: boxy: what is going to happen?[2011/01/04 15:52]  Rayne Queller: the graphics are superfluous [2011/01/04 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: waaaaaay oversimplified[2011/01/04 15:52]  Rayne Queller: I can’t kill you with a sword [2011/01/04 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww Rayne :) One wonders why you bothered to dress up your avatar then ;)[2011/01/04 15:52]  Rayne Queller: I can’t dig a whole with a shovel [2011/01/04 15:52]  Luisa Bourgoin: without Objects, it’s a chatroom. IRC like[2011/01/04 15:52]  Rayne Queller: I can’t lock a door with a key [2011/01/04 15:52]  Alfred Kelberry: gwyn, yes… then you get a degree, face the real life, and find out it’s not enterly true :)[2011/01/04 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But if your point is that we need more interactive things in SL, sure, I agree[2011/01/04 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can’t dig a hole with a shovel, but you can make a hole with building kit[2011/01/04 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Rayne, that’s sort of my point. . . It’s *not* just a chat room with 3D graphics — because there are quite a few competing worlds out there that *are* basically just chat rooms with 3D graphics.[2011/01/04 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe boxy ;) touché![2011/01/04 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can’t lock doors with a key, but you can script them to have them locked[2011/01/04 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: And they’re totally un-interesting to somebody who’s already familiar with SL.[2011/01/04 15:53]  Rayne Queller: I don’t need to find, or buy an objet to achieve any objective [2011/01/04 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m sure you can easily make a key to unlock a door and script it. Just nobody wants to.[2011/01/04 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s not like reality, but in some aspects, it’s actually *better*[2011/01/04 15:53]  Rayne Queller: I can’t steal other stuf [2011/01/04 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: And yet, there you sit with your clothes on. Which you went out and got. And I bet you do own some objects.[2011/01/04 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol 1[2011/01/04 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh actually you can[2011/01/04 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me laughs[2011/01/04 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes you can :)[2011/01/04 15:54]  Alfred Kelberry: art, then you’ll see it’s not about “dumbing-down”, but actual change of your habitat[2011/01/04 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: The fashion scene in SL is extremely vibrant and VERY profitable. That is the current killer app here.[2011/01/04 15:54]  Rayne Queller: stuff does not break, get used up, and if you have one you can make infinite copies [2011/01/04 15:54]  Rayne Queller: you can’t drive an economy that way [2011/01/04 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, since they killed gambling (mostly).[2011/01/04 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would agree, Art :)[2011/01/04 15:54]  Alfred Kelberry: art, how much do they make?[2011/01/04 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Didn’t I hear that they are going to bring back gambling?[2011/01/04 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: yes, we get it, it’s not RL, but should it be?[2011/01/04 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There were some rumours (agai) about re-introducing gambling…. I have no idea where that came from[2011/01/04 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: That sofa you sit on is not pointless. It serves exactly the same function as a real sofa, so by any practical definition it IS a sofa and not just graphics.[2011/01/04 15:55]  Rayne Queller: if you want to make money it should be [2011/01/04 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Art! I heard that too[2011/01/04 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: boxy: about 700 million rl dollars in 2010 is an estimate.[2011/01/04 15:55]  Rayne Queller: if you want your sim to be worth anytihng it should [2011/01/04 15:55]  Olav Svenson: i like how you said that ext[2011/01/04 15:55]  Rayne Queller: even super mario, has objects you can inter act with, and enemies than can hrut you [2011/01/04 15:55]  Luisa Bourgoin: *lightbulb* …opening a gambling pallace hosted in russia, on an opensim[2011/01/04 15:56]  Alfred Kelberry: ext, for a practical graphics designer it very well may be a set of polygons :)[2011/01/04 15:56]  Rayne Queller: there is a REASON to want to find teh mushroom [2011/01/04 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: There are sims where you can get hurt.[2011/01/04 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: I’m making money in SL just fine, tyvm. If it was anything more alike RL, that would be actually harder for me. I can sit here chatting while mu stuff sells itself in the quanities the market needs, how is that not better than RL?[2011/01/04 15:56]  Rayne Queller: not to hold it and say WOOO WOOOPIE look at me I’m holding a thing [2011/01/04 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: The things themselves form ‘environments’ for people to interact in. That is their use.[2011/01/04 15:57]  Rayne Queller: you actually have an objective and have to use things to achieve that objective [2011/01/04 15:57]  Rayne Queller: is SL your only objective is to stand and talk [2011/01/04 15:57]  Alfred Kelberry: ivy, what do you sell?[2011/01/04 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, perhaps LL gets to finish the game bits of SL :) After all, we have “health” and we can get objects to “Hurt” avatars, but LL simply gave up on developing those further[2011/01/04 15:57]  Rayne Queller: you can do that on IRC [2011/01/04 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends, Shaddowz — it might be that objective for some, but not all[2011/01/04 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 20% of all residents just want cyberpron ;)[2011/01/04 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: Alfred: LM :)[2011/01/04 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: I got a bracelet that lets me change Jamie Marlin into a variety of um…exotic…clothes and avatars. That is useful. :)[2011/01/04 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: You don’t really have objective of any sort in RL either[2011/01/04 15:58]  Rayne Queller: in role play sims, you can have objectives and suck, but 90% of that is not SL programming, its narration [2011/01/04 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Rayne: you can dance and fly and explore as well as listen to music etc. etc. AND play games if yo uare so inclined.[2011/01/04 15:58]  Alfred Kelberry: um… i don’t see anything[2011/01/04 15:58]  Rayne Queller: no you can’t dance, you press a button and your AV moves irrelevently [2011/01/04 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, we need avatar puppeteering… :)[2011/01/04 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: they are working on that :)[2011/01/04 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: We need to introduce stats and levels. . . and quests. . . yeah. :)[2011/01/04 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: But what if having more objectives in SL could help newbies understand the potential of the open sandbox that is SL propper?[2011/01/04 15:58]  Rayne Queller: you can fly, but why? just to find other people to talk to [2011/01/04 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: That one game I tried made you go around and dig for crystals, and stuff like that, to earn in-game money. :P[2011/01/04 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think we “need” that, Zo, although I’m sure that a lot of residents would love tohave those features built-in into SL[2011/01/04 15:59]  Ataraxia Azemus: Rayne, some of us find gamey goals a tad *boring* :p[2011/01/04 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Selecting from thousands of animations and implementing them is an artform in itself and a type of communication with others.[2011/01/04 15:59]  Rayne Queller: for example in RL you do have objectives, you are huncry, you need food, so you have to go to the store [2011/01/04 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Rayne does have a point. I totally ignore build and scripts. SL is a chatroom with graphics where I am concerned.[2011/01/04 15:59]  Rayne Queller: you have to find your keys [2011/01/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins @ Extie[2011/01/04 16:00]  Archmage Atlantis: You can dance, if you pay attention to the music and the available dances, then use one’s av in a choreographed way[2011/01/04 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually. . . I don’t favor turning SL into a “game” as such, but if we could get more features that builders could use to create their own games, that would be very cool.[2011/01/04 16:00]  Luisa Bourgoin: do we want to talk with peoples, Rayne? If that’s our goal, SL surely offers us a meaning. otherwise[2011/01/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would agree with that too, Zo[2011/01/04 16:00]  Rayne Queller: you have to locate food [2011/01/04 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: There have been many attempts to create games in SL, with varying success. . . None have been all that great IMHO.[2011/01/04 16:00]  Rayne Queller: in SL youl AV needs no food or rest, does not get cold [2011/01/04 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s stop talking about turning SL into a game, because it can’t be done. It doesn’t have that structure. You can have games ‘inside’ of sl, but a virtual world is SO MUCH MORE than a game.[2011/01/04 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: and you are complaining about THAT?[2011/01/04 16:01]  Rayne Queller: maybe your goal is to find a shovel, and burry a gold cup, so others might find it [2011/01/04 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: I did most of the Pot Healer Adventure, which is a sort of Myst-like adventure game. It was very clever, but it was clearly hobbled by the limitations of SL/LSL.[2011/01/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are too many limitations in scripting…. e.g. if you shoot a bullet and have to track down how many hit points an avatar has lost, that requiresa LOT of slow, laggy LSL programming.[2011/01/04 16:01]  Archmage Atlantis: If one has little imagination, then an av is just a cartoon[2011/01/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Zo[2011/01/04 16:01]  Lem Skall: a VW is also so much LESS than a game[2011/01/04 16:01]  Rayne Queller: in most adventure games you have to eat, or rest, etc [2011/01/04 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Rayne, if that is your desire, then WoW is for you. ha ha[2011/01/04 16:01]  Rayne Queller: if only to restore your health bar [2011/01/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡[2011/01/04 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: I need companionship, I need a sense of purpose. I need fun. I need something to think about, and I need something that others might want to think about too. I have plenty of goals I need to fulfill. I do not accept that SL is meaningless just because some RL goals are not applicable.[2011/01/04 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lem: I have to totally disagree with you about that one.[2011/01/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, hardly. But I agree that some people would love to be able to design better games in SL.[2011/01/04 16:02]  Rayne Queller: you just said, you need to talk to people [2011/01/04 16:02]  Alfred Kelberry: i’m off folks. thank you for discussion.[2011/01/04 16:02]  Archmage Atlantis: If one can understand the manipulation of symbols, and the effect on perception, thn sl is an alternate world…..as real as rl[2011/01/04 16:02]  Luisa Bourgoin: some RP huds implenent nutrition[2011/01/04 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: And there are many RP communities in SL that require the use of a HUD or statistics meter — but again they are very simple and limited. It would be great if they could do more along those lines.[2011/01/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that requires a bit more help from LL[2011/01/04 16:02]  Rayne Queller: which you an do IRC style too [2011/01/04 16:02]  Alfred Kelberry: bye, ext :)[2011/01/04 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: bye alfred![2011/01/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I fully agree, Zo[2011/01/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bye, oh boxy one :)[2011/01/04 16:02]  Alfred Kelberry: :)[2011/01/04 16:02]  Rayne Queller: Yes, as I said there are RP sims. [2011/01/04 16:03]  Rayne Queller: but they are mostly done in text narration and very little in the crapy animations [2011/01/04 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A lot of them :)[2011/01/04 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Animations take a LOT of time to create, Rayne…[2011/01/04 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Try to have this discussion group in a game World. ha ha ha, they would all want to know the purpose of it![2011/01/04 16:03]  Luisa Bourgoin: and some of their RP equipments mimic that health, stamina scheme as known from other places[2011/01/04 16:03]  Rayne Queller: the weapon systems are woafully inaccurate [2011/01/04 16:03]  Franja Russell: Think about the SL participants who are physically limited in motion. They can walk, run, fly, swim, do the things their limbs can’t do in rela life. It must be freeing. I don’t think it makes real life more grim for them. I think it’s a creative outlet.[2011/01/04 16:03]  Rayne Queller: exactly, the SL building system is was convoluted [2011/01/04 16:03]  Lem Skall: I must not be able to understand the manipulation of symbols and their effect on perception or maybe it just doesn’t have an effect on me[2011/01/04 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* — and let’s not talk about vehicles![2011/01/04 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: if there was an opt-out from eating, shitting, having to work and pay taxes, having to have shelter etc. IRL, I’d get in ASAP![2011/01/04 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: I have long experience program on MUCKs. And I have to report that the scripting language on the MUCK is a lot more flexible than LSL.[2011/01/04 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe there is, Ivy, there is… :)[2011/01/04 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s not for everybody ;)[2011/01/04 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me grins[2011/01/04 16:04]  Franja Russell: SL’s building prompts and the shapes provided can be turned into houses, furniture, vehicles, even clothes. That’s neat !![2011/01/04 16:04]  Luisa Bourgoin: we could invent TAXES inworld :D[2011/01/04 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, I was able to eliminate some :)[2011/01/04 16:04]  Rayne Queller: building and scripting is very hard on SL [2011/01/04 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Compared to what, Rayne?[2011/01/04 16:04]  Rayne Queller: 3D auto-cad[2011/01/04 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Do we expect too much of SL if we come here expecting it to perform like a Halo FPS a WOW MMORPG, and god knows what else other dedicated videogames do these days?[2011/01/04 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes we do :D[2011/01/04 16:05]  Archmage Atlantis: Sitting in a rl circle discussing a book isn’t an activity that all enjoy either[2011/01/04 16:05]  Rayne Queller: much easier to line up 3D objects in the depth axis in auto-cad [2011/01/04 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: We have to acknowledge the ‘suspension of disbelief’ and the ‘transference’ needed for a virtual world. Imagination is needed. I guess if you don’t have it, it’s not for you……[2011/01/04 16:05]  Lem Skall: “virtually ” sitting in a circle[2011/01/04 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: Do we expect too much of SL if we come here expecting it to perform like a simple text-based environment run by hobbyists? :P[2011/01/04 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, Halo 3 is bloody amazing at what it does. But that is *all* it does.[2011/01/04 16:05]  Archmage Atlantis: Perhaps that is some key to the difference,,,,,,, conversation vs. activity[2011/01/04 16:06]  Luisa Bourgoin: if you can make it inside SL, you can make it everywhere. (sing this along the tunes of New York, New York)[2011/01/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a LOT of activity too, Acrh[2011/01/04 16:06]  Franja Russell: Sitting in a group discussing a book with the author who wrote it is interesting in RL and in SL.[2011/01/04 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: still, it’s easier for me to move furniture around in SL with a magical beam all alone in seconds, compared to what I’ve to do in RL to achieve same effects[2011/01/04 16:06]  Lem Skall: but Halo does it WELL, SL doesn’t do well ANYTHING[2011/01/04 16:06]  Rayne Queller: in even say WoW you can in a fight scene actually have your AV hit eachother with a hammer in various ways .[2011/01/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes. That’s the problem with “multipurpose tools”: they do everything, but do it BADLY.[2011/01/04 16:06]  Rayne Queller: on Gor, you have to narrate. [2011/01/04 16:06]  Olav Svenson: SL acts so differently why would we want a clone of WoW or any other.. wouldn’t that just put ppl off SL?[2011/01/04 16:06]  Luisa Bourgoin: if you can stand your day inside SL, you can make it everywhere[2011/01/04 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: That is true, Lem. In SL you can do almost anything…badly.[2011/01/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Olav: not if it’s optional![2011/01/04 16:07]  Rayne Queller: with the massive computing power it takes, you should be able to do things well [2011/01/04 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s take a look at the SL art scene: is there ANY other place in cyberspace that you can interact with 3d virtual artworks? I don’t believe so.[2011/01/04 16:08]  Franja Russell: I know that many people enjoy WoW, but I don’t understand the thrill of stalking, maiming, killing creatures–even virtual ones.[2011/01/04 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, imagine that the viewer and LSL would incorporate a lot of functionality to allow games to be more easily designed in SL. Would that affect the Thinkers meetings? The live music audience? The shoppers? The cyberporn fans? No. But it would appeal to the RP crowd.[2011/01/04 16:08]  Rayne Queller: if you try to use SL as a gaming platform of any kind. sega genisis has it beat [2011/01/04 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Ah, but Lanier argued that massive computing power made software designers lazy, and so software development has not progressed anywhere near as much.[2011/01/04 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ohhh finally someone had the courage to say that publicly![2011/01/04 16:08]  Lem Skall: Art, true but most of the art in SL is still vert poor[2011/01/04 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: say what?[2011/01/04 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I never heard about this “Lanier” person, but I’m an instant fan ;)[2011/01/04 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: you have to confront the actual computing power with what you want to achieve, SL sure wants to achieve a lot. Using WoW as an example, yes, it doesn’t lag like hell as SL tends to, but on the other hand you can actually walk through people in WoW, the characters are not “physical” in that sense, in fact, WoW has barely any physical engine – the missiles always hit (unless the game rules say otherwise ofcourse!)[2011/01/04 16:09]  Lem Skall: software designers were always lazy[2011/01/04 16:09]  Archmage Atlantis: All programming s/b done in machine language on the slowest current computer (joke)[2011/01/04 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Really? You never heard of Jaron Lanier? Hell, he pretty much invented virtual reality! You should read his book ‘you are not a gadget’, Gwyn. Good stuff.[2011/01/04 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Isn’t the model of BlueMars to make it so you can have a virtual world that contains great games? I don’t see great success there yet….[2011/01/04 16:10]  Luisa Bourgoin: lazyness, impatience & hybris :P[2011/01/04 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks for the tip, Extie :)[2011/01/04 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: They do insist BM is not trying to be SL.[2011/01/04 16:10]  Rayne Queller: right, and SL has real good solidity [2011/01/04 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure what BM is trying to be.[2011/01/04 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: I wish somebody *was* trying to be SL — only better.[2011/01/04 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Burning venture capital? ;)[2011/01/04 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: nor I, now you mention it, Zoe.[2011/01/04 16:11]  Rayne Queller: Where I can escape any cade by rezing an oject on the ground outside of it, then sitting on it [2011/01/04 16:11]  Rayne Queller: cage[2011/01/04 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I’m pretty much convinced this will NOT happen.[2011/01/04 16:11]  Franja Russell: Extropia and others here….there are those of us in SL who are not technological experts, but we’re having fun here. I personally don’t need the “best”, “fastest” of anything. I just need things I enjoy.[2011/01/04 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Never?[2011/01/04 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, never.[2011/01/04 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: put on RLV collar and we will see how you escape cages then, I’ve experience in that *grins*[2011/01/04 16:11]  Anamika Pond: lol[2011/01/04 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s because of the business model. You simply cannot replicate it.[2011/01/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I agree, Franja ;)[2011/01/04 16:12]  Rayne Queller: where I can walk right up the side of a 90 degrees wall. [2011/01/04 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Anything can be replicated.[2011/01/04 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: When I buy clothes, why do I need to rez a box, click on the box, move contents to inventory, look for them, open the folder, wear it? That does seem overly complicated:)[2011/01/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: With CopyBot, yes ;)[2011/01/04 16:12]  Rayne Queller: if I walk towards in enough [2011/01/04 16:12]  Archmage Atlantis: Agree Extie[2011/01/04 16:12]  Rayne Queller: and water, it does not ripple or splah [2011/01/04 16:12]  Luisa Bourgoin: Extie, vendors *could* drop you a fine folder right into Inv…[2011/01/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: Philip’s last words in his Second Coming were to the effect that they will change all that.[2011/01/04 16:12]  Rayne Queller: and I can stand under for ever [2011/01/04 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is my observation that the people who stay in SL a long time have become part of a ‘community’ or more than one. Thinkers is a community. That is what makes this place go, I think.[2011/01/04 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, I agree Art[2011/01/04 16:13]  Anamika Pond: agreed Art[2011/01/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least for one hour per week, yes .)[2011/01/04 16:13]  Archmage Atlantis: Agree very much Art[2011/01/04 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: I’ve seen some boxes that just send you the contents the moment you rezz them, but yeah, that is an issue, and that’s an issue a CEO with gaming background can actually help with :)[2011/01/04 16:13]  Franja Russell: The advantage of having parts of an outfit in a box that you can “send contents” to your Inventory—is that you can add parts to complete an outfit and save it. then you don’t have to stand[2011/01/04 16:13]  Luisa Bourgoin: loosely formal community[2011/01/04 16:13]  Rayne Queller: people even in role play sims, stop trying to game, and get tired of narrating [2011/01/04 16:13]  Lem Skall: oh, that “community” again[2011/01/04 16:13]  Rayne Queller: they too just stand and talk [2011/01/04 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Ondrejlka said SL is all about communication through shared experience. Being in a vibrant community is part of that, clearly.[2011/01/04 16:14]  Franja Russell: Then you don’t have to stand and take forever tofind all the parts of the outfit you want to wear today….tomorrow….whatever.’[2011/01/04 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: But for example I am part of several communities that have events and much opportunity for social interaction. Much opportunity to make friends and be part of something.[2011/01/04 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Except if you don’t want to be part of any, and still have fun on your own. SL allows that too.[2011/01/04 16:14]  Franja Russell: ArtCrash, I agree.[2011/01/04 16:14]  Anamika Pond: yes Gwyn[2011/01/04 16:14]  Luisa Bourgoin: Rayne, that last one has been a serious observation. that could endanger SL[2011/01/04 16:14]  Franja Russell: Gwyneth is right too.[2011/01/04 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Again, we fall back to the issue that SL allows pretty much *everything*, it just isn’t *expert* at any.[2011/01/04 16:14]  Rayne Queller: the lack of ability to steal objects, has lead to the continuous capture and rescue of Pathers [2011/01/04 16:14]  Archmage Atlantis: And the live music scene can be very enjoyable[2011/01/04 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is why I love SL. The community AND the creative outlet for my artsy side…. oh….. and shopping….. haha[2011/01/04 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: mmmm. . . shopping. . .[2011/01/04 16:15]  Anamika Pond: :)[2011/01/04 16:15]  Rayne Queller: if you go into the Gor sims. [2011/01/04 16:15]  Rayne Queller: very few are actually used [2011/01/04 16:15]  Franja Russell: “Pathers”….what’s that?[2011/01/04 16:15]  Anamika Pond: lol[2011/01/04 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What are Pathers?[2011/01/04 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh…. sorry, Franja asked first[2011/01/04 16:15]  Rayne Queller: eveyrone just stands at the hub[2011/01/04 16:15]  Rayne Queller: Panthers [2011/01/04 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: I like SL because it allowed my patterns to come togeher to make this being you all see before you.[2011/01/04 16:15]  Franja Russell: Same question.[2011/01/04 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah[2011/01/04 16:15]  Rayne Queller: and in the south Taluna [2011/01/04 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok :) lol[2011/01/04 16:16]  Franja Russell: Ok….what are Panthers in SL?[2011/01/04 16:16]  Luisa Bourgoin: Gor … be very afraid :D[2011/01/04 16:16]  Anamika Pond: lol[2011/01/04 16:16]  Rayne Queller: Women who live in the forrests as outlaws [2011/01/04 16:16]  Luisa Bourgoin: they are *not* Nekos[2011/01/04 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Franja: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gor%5B2011/01/04 16:16]  Franja Russell: Hmmm…ok, I guess.[2011/01/04 16:16]  Aebleskiver Thibedeau: lol[2011/01/04 16:16]  Luisa Bourgoin: … I had learned the hard way :([2011/01/04 16:16]  Franja Russell: Thanks, Gwyn.[2011/01/04 16:17]  Rayne Queller: if everything has to be narrated, you might as well go into IRC [2011/01/04 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: *Looks at Ari* Girl would like to explain what Gor is, Master.[2011/01/04 16:17]  Luisa Bourgoin: exactly![2011/01/04 16:17]  Rayne Queller: or just do your role play in PMs [2011/01/04 16:17]  Lem Skall: lol, Extie[2011/01/04 16:17]  Arisia Vita: ?[2011/01/04 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: yet another soul to corrupt?[2011/01/04 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me chuckles[2011/01/04 16:18]  Lem Skall: Ari, play along[2011/01/04 16:18]  Rayne Queller: On a good platform with necessity [2011/01/04 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Master is displeased! Girl will atone for her shame with the whip. And the cucumber.[2011/01/04 16:18]  Rayne Queller: you could set up a whole Gorean economy [2011/01/04 16:18]  Olav Svenson: lol[2011/01/04 16:18]  Rayne Queller: where people need certain goods, and have to get them when the mercahnts came [2011/01/04 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that ‘necessity’ would be virtual too ;)[2011/01/04 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: you are right that SL is, in roleplaying terms, mostly chat based, but you can do things in SL that you can’t do on IRC to actually enhance it[2011/01/04 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Besides Gor, Rayne, have you ever tried other RP sims? Some have pretty complex scripting…[2011/01/04 16:19]  Anamika Pond: indeed Ivy[2011/01/04 16:19]  Luisa Bourgoin: again, there *has* been a RP pouch item where one can collect growing plants, items, and use them to create mixtures[2011/01/04 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note that they are just a shadow of what a professional game offers, of course[2011/01/04 16:19]  Rayne Queller: Gor has complex scripts too [2011/01/04 16:20]  Rayne Queller: but they problems are fundamental defects in the platform, not something easily scripted around [2011/01/04 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: I wonder sometimes if I would have been better off in a text-based MUD. Because I am useless at building, but I like to think I am quite good with words, so maybe I could have had more contributions in text-muds?[2011/01/04 16:20]  Olav Svenson: like the rugs?[2011/01/04 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes. But it’s a bit unfair to compare something quickly thrown out with volunteer programming, and a FPS with US$160 million budget…[2011/01/04 16:20]  Rayne Queller: I tried to build before [2011/01/04 16:21]  Rayne Queller: if you have say 2 squares and try to move them so they line up[2011/01/04 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: /me shudders at all the talk of Gor. “It’s sick!”[2011/01/04 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Another RP group of sims is the Victorian world of Caledon. They have a complex bunch of events going on all the time.[2011/01/04 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good example, Art :)[2011/01/04 16:21]  Luisa Bourgoin: Extie, join forces with creators who need “wordings” as built supply :)[2011/01/04 16:21]  Olav Svenson: and a school[2011/01/04 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Gor. What is it good for?….[2011/01/04 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fun?[2011/01/04 16:21]  Rayne Queller: it looks perfect, then you move and it turns out one is 3 feet behind the other one, not right next to it [2011/01/04 16:21]  Rayne Queller: then from the new angle you line it up [2011/01/04 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rayne: turn on grid?[2011/01/04 16:21]  Rayne Queller: now its’ 3 feet off the other way [2011/01/04 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: The tinies are very organized into communities as well.[2011/01/04 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, well, building is a skill…. like any other[2011/01/04 16:22]  Rayne Queller: I think it was on [2011/01/04 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: then use it?[2011/01/04 16:22]  Rayne Queller: Auto-cad is much easier [2011/01/04 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: I had fun when I tried building. People were coming over, giving advice, showing me what to do. It was nice.[2011/01/04 16:22]  Luisa Bourgoin: Rayne, 3D geometry is built isnide headspace, too. don’t try camming arround 90° angles jsut to assure lineups[2011/01/04 16:22]  Archmage Atlantis: I assume the f/u to your line, Extie, is “Absolutely nothing”[2011/01/04 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: yes![2011/01/04 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve seen CAD software, mind you, I didn’t use it that much, but I find SL to be quite easy to build in[2011/01/04 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, building is a skill for sure and unfortunately it is becoming necessary to have much higher skill levels in outside programs now to compete with the quality that is being improved.[2011/01/04 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve started messing with Blender, getting ready for the rise of meshes.[2011/01/04 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s because you’re used to it, Rayne. I have someone who works for me who had 10+ years of AutoCAD experience and was terribly frustrated with SL… until she actually learned to use SL instead of griping about it. Now she builds faster in Sl than in AutoCAD, even though she definitely misses some of the tools.[2011/01/04 16:23]  Luisa Bourgoin: auto cad is obsolete software[2011/01/04 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: It is no use building if you have no land. All you get for your troubles is an inventory full of prims.[2011/01/04 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, Luisa, it has a niche market :)[2011/01/04 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just like SL… heh[2011/01/04 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: I think building in SL, with prims, is sort of like BASIC has been in terms of programming.[2011/01/04 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s a simple introduction to the concepts.[2011/01/04 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And you can do pretty amazing things with BASIC.[2011/01/04 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: The main tools outside of sl now are 3d modeling tools like Maya, 3d Studio Max, Zbrush and Blender…..[2011/01/04 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: I would rather my inventory was full of useful/fun/ pretty stuff, so I leave building and scripting to the experts.[2011/01/04 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me closes Rayne in a box[2011/01/04 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, yes for 3d modelling, but AutoCAD is not only for that :P[2011/01/04 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Extie — yay for the economy that allows us to get insanely complex objects for a handful of L$ ;)[2011/01/04 16:25]  Archmage Atlantis: Ivy, is that a box in a box?[2011/01/04 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Autocad sounds like a robot that tells its wife it is going to run off with its mistress.[2011/01/04 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That wasn’t very nice, Ivy :P[2011/01/04 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: I consider myself a pretty good builder, But I love to buy sim stuff from other builders. Because creativity of others is so great.[2011/01/04 16:25]  Luisa Bourgoin: Ivy iz ebil[2011/01/04 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Building is pretty time-consuming.[2011/01/04 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not putting down builders. I have immense pride in what they do, especially because I would not know where to begin to do some of the stuff I see. I just do not want to focus my own efforts there.[2011/01/04 16:26]  Rayne Queller: I have clothes and stuff in my INV mostly [2011/01/04 16:27]  Archmage Atlantis: Right, lisp is a programming language *g*[2011/01/04 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: In fact, one could say everything about SL is time-consuming.[2011/01/04 16:27]  Lem Skall: you know, if anything, SL has been interesting for me because it got me to learn about subcultures like Gor, furries, griefers, extropianism. I wonder how that could be used to promote SL[2011/01/04 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Arch[2011/01/04 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo lem![2011/01/04 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: unless you’re enjoying what you do in SL[2011/01/04 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Didn’t Usenet do that, Lem?[2011/01/04 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Lem![2011/01/04 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is the combination of personal building and the objects of others that really make for a rich immersive sim in my opinion. Just doing it all from one person is so limiting.[2011/01/04 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: I will make that the topic not this week but next![2011/01/04 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: very good point![2011/01/04 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “What did we learn about SL?”[2011/01/04 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or rather, in SL[2011/01/04 16:27]  Lem Skall: Usenet may have done that but it didn’t do it for me[2011/01/04 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that’s really an excellent point[2011/01/04 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For instance, I was truly shocked when I learned that furries were ostracised in SL…. where anyone can wear whatever shape they wish[2011/01/04 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: wait. . . We are? o.O[2011/01/04 16:28]  Luisa Bourgoin: wut![2011/01/04 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: quite[2011/01/04 16:28]  Archmage Atlantis: Only is some parts of sl[2011/01/04 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, back in 2005 :)[2011/01/04 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘I hate the furries. People dressing up pretending to be animals. What’s up with that?’- Phillip Rosedale.[2011/01/04 16:29]  Ataraxia Azemus: /me waves and gets swept away by the tidal lag[2011/01/04 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: Also, Lem, I have seen some of your excellent SL photography. So SL has been a creative outlet for you as well. Don’t say no! ha ha ha[2011/01/04 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha Extie[2011/01/04 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: naaah Extie, he never said that, did he!?!??![2011/01/04 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is naïve[2011/01/04 16:29]  Lem Skall: oh great, now that I stopped taking pictures in SL[2011/01/04 16:29]  Lem Skall: thanks though Art[2011/01/04 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: why, Lem???[2011/01/04 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: He did. It is quoted in..um…Second Lives by Tim Guest.[2011/01/04 16:30]  Lem Skall: I got myself a RL camera[2011/01/04 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now you even have depth of field and such nifty camera tricks….[2011/01/04 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: I got my sl camera first, but LOVE love sl photography too.[2011/01/04 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: HDR to come soon ;)[2011/01/04 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: rl camera[2011/01/04 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: i mean[2011/01/04 16:30]  Archmage Atlantis: Obviously, Rosedale didn’t understand the manipulation of symbolic objects, either[2011/01/04 16:30]  Lem Skall: me and Philip[2011/01/04 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, he doesn’t have to understand it to make SL what it is[2011/01/04 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: though understanding of own community would probably help :)[2011/01/04 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, in any case, if the only thing that Humble does to SL is improving the engine to allow better game programming, I’m all for that.[2011/01/04 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: So, is there an internet summary of the ideas of Rod Humble about VR worlds somewhere? I’d like to see it.[2011/01/04 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK! My time is nearly up, so maybe we could end by filling in this sentence ‘DEAR new CEO, please will you…..’[2011/01/04 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: yup! I’m in with hands, legs, tail and horns for more game-friendly technology! :)[2011/01/04 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: …give SL back to the immersionists, where it belongs.[2011/01/04 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: …change LSL to something that does NOT suck?[2011/01/04 16:32]  Lem Skall: “tell us what SL is about”[2011/01/04 16:32]  Luisa Bourgoin: please will you….. *plz* accept to learn from former CEO’s mistakes?[2011/01/04 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: (I like Lem’s)[2011/01/04 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Dear Rod Humble, would you please communicate MUCH more with the users of SL, including going inworld and doing things regularly to see how it actually functions for the average user?[2011/01/04 16:33]  Franja Russell: “Please control lag.”[2011/01/04 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dear Rod Humble, don’t go to Zindra and reverse your name. Thank you.[2011/01/04 16:33]  Lem Skall: rofl, Gwy[2011/01/04 16:33]  Lem Skall: Gwyn*[2011/01/04 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: Elbmuh? :p[2011/01/04 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL[2011/01/04 16:33]  Luisa Bourgoin: ebil & *naive* :P[2011/01/04 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)[2011/01/04 16:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: hey![2011/01/04 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!

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